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On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work.
Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes.
What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup.
It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc.
The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time.
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On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time.
Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation.
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On December 01 2011 14:42 Alexstrasas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 13:59 Jacobs Ladder wrote:On December 01 2011 12:50 IlIlIlIl wrote:On December 01 2011 12:42 Sadist wrote:On December 01 2011 12:32 Horseballs wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. Or, they are like me and had a ~36% ratio while playing for the long game and decided the matchup was frustrating and boring to play and started to one-base all in every game. So far my win rate with one base all-ins has been around 80%, and yet my overall winrate vs protoss for this season is currently at 47%. The matchup is boring, bio is boring, and toss late-game can get ridiculously out of hand if you aren't a top tier player. I dont think it is physically possible for terran to deal with 15+ warpgates and 3 robo. If you overbuild vikings you get raped by their ground army and are forced to land, then they make 3 colossus and rape face. This happens over and over -_- Yep, once Protoss gets 3/4 base and 10+ gates you'll be lucky to break even every fight in tvp, and then comes the damn 10 zealots as reinforcement  Ghosts. I know terran's love to cry that "ghosts really aren't that good", but they REALLY ARE. There was a recent IPL game (IPL 4 Qualifiers I think), Thorzain vs White Ra on shattered Temple. Going into the big fight Ra had a 20 food advantage, upgrade advantage, and a scary Zealot/Collossi/Archon/Stalker army. He got rolled, completely destroyed. Thorzain EMP'd enough to destroy the archons and snipped every single zealot in a matter of second. All that was left were a few sad, lonely, colossi that were quickly cleaned up. White Ra reinforced with those 10 zealot's which were once again snipped into nothingness. My general point is, stuff can be dealt with if you try something new. The current late game P composition was tailored to destroy generic MMM, so of course MMM loses. As i remember White Ra didnt do a Zealot/Collossi/Archon/Stalker army, he did mass mass zealot and archons, and thorzain had basicly a handful of marauders and a ton of ghosts with obviously make short work of that unit compostion. He had 3 or 4 colossi, I might have been wrong about the stalkers. None the less, Zealot's are one of the big T complaints right now (note the post I replied to was talking about how food 10 zealot reinforcements are) and I was pointing out that adding something that's not part of the normal composition deals with it quite well.
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There are "problems" with the Terran side of TvP, but its only a problem for everyone except Bomber, IMMVP and probably PoltPrime so nbd. I kinda want less people to play Terran. I dig it. Im a hipster nerd and Zerg and Protoss are way too mainstream.
Back the irrelevant topic title, bunker upgrades might be really sweet in this matchup.
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I ve always found 2 base colossi pushes hard to stop. This is partially because i like to take a fastish third. but it feels like even if i know its coming i cant stop it. Feels like toss have slowly learned to deal with drops better (or i ve gotten to the level where toss are good enough to do so) HT also shut down drops like crazy. I agree with others that it feels like with storm / colossi the toss army is too ez touse for the power it has. I dont feel the same kind of micro that zerg or terran has to do.
bunkers are useless vs any colossi or heavy zlot composition from toss past 2 base by the way. unless u made like 5 in which case they can just atk somewhere else and it still isnt hugely effective vs colossi armies. The only really effective space control in TvP imo is the planetary fortress.
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On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation.
It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game.
Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is.
I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP.
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On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP.
its all about unit composition and army positioning, Dont let ur shit get stormed.. When he comes at u with hts run back ur army and send ur ghost forward to EMP or snipe, and send army back in... if he has alot of collosi... Engage and run army while viking snipe his shit.
there u go : )
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On December 01 2011 15:07 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP. its all about unit composition and army positioning, Dont let ur shit get stormed.. When he comes at u with hts run back ur army and send ur ghost forward to EMP or snipe, and send army back in... if he has alot of collosi... Engage and run army while viking snipe his shit. there u go : )
in that case protoss can easily win games too. if theyre going heavy marauder add a lot of chargelots, use good forcefields to maximize collosi/ht damage before they end up dying, dont let ur shit get emped... when he comes at you with his ghost or vikings run your expensive units back and use your stalkers to snipe the stuff and blink back out, always keep obs with your army so you can track his movements and storm/feedback before he has time to react.
theory doesn't work
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On December 01 2011 15:24 dhe95 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 15:07 VPCursed wrote:On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP. its all about unit composition and army positioning, Dont let ur shit get stormed.. When he comes at u with hts run back ur army and send ur ghost forward to EMP or snipe, and send army back in... if he has alot of collosi... Engage and run army while viking snipe his shit. there u go : ) in that case protoss can easily win games too. if theyre going heavy marauder add a lot of chargelots, use good forcefields to maximize collosi/ht damage before they end up dying, dont let ur shit get emped... when he comes at you with his ghost or vikings run your expensive units back and use your stalkers to snipe the stuff and blink back out, always keep obs with your army so you can track his movements and storm/feedback before he has time to react. theory doesn't work
That actually sounds like how both players should play, and whoever does it better would win.
Zounds, we can't have that here!
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Terran have one of the best defender advantages in the game in many ways. The Bunker and proper placement of buildings can lead to sim cities that make it very difficult to break terran opponents. In fact anyone who has played enough PvT knows that attacking defending terran expos or mains without an overwhelming force can often be a fatal mistake. The same applies in ZvT. well entrenched tanks, well placed bunkers, and planetary fortresses dramatically augment a terran on defense. Yes immortals crush bunkers and that can be a difficult push but careless attacks on terran bases can create massive supply differences. I think all races are pretty equal in their defender's advantage, protoss have forcefields, zerg have creep and fast reinforcements, terran have siege tanks, pf's, and bunkers. I don't think your arguement is solid. I play random and i find defense advantageous for all races in terms of skirmishes. try playing other races and you may find terran is just as good as the others
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On December 01 2011 15:07 VPCursed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP. its all about unit composition and army positioning, Dont let ur shit get stormed.. When he comes at u with hts run back ur army and send ur ghost forward to EMP or snipe, and send army back in... if he has alot of collosi... Engage and run army while viking snipe his shit. there u go : )
This would be great if it actually worked, and if done flawlessly.. otherwise GL with that
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On December 01 2011 15:05 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 14:47 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:44 Whitewing wrote:On December 01 2011 14:42 ZenithM wrote:On December 01 2011 14:34 Raambo11 wrote:On December 01 2011 12:41 deadmau wrote:On December 01 2011 12:03 ZenithM wrote:What is actually funny is that every fucking ladder Terran claims to have a 30% winrate against Protoss. Given Blizzard system, they have 50% winrate overall. Therefore there exists a race against which they have way over 50% winrate. - If it's Zerg: Well Zerg is underpowered then? How come they don't complain? Terran easy mode? - Let's assume now that in fact, they have 50% winrate against Zerg and that TvZ is a balanced matchup. Hence, they have a 70% winrate TvT, maybe even higher because there is less Terran players on ladder. Conclusion: Every goddamn Terran has over 70% winrate TvT. Uh... + Show Spoiler +Other conclusion: only a handful of Terrans have a problem in TvP, and they whine the loudest and we have threads like these, and anti-Protoss balance whines and shit. ZenithM hit the mark exactly, some pretty egregious winrate claims here that just don't make sense. Can you terrans cut the bullshit now. Well as a terran player I can see multiple glaring holes in your argument. My TVP winrate is about 30%, however I cheese literally EVERY GAME. The reason for this is because I know if the game goes past 15 minutes I'm dead no matter what. This is not a preconceived notion that popped into my head, this happened after losing literally hundreds of games vs protoss in the later stages of the game. Bottom line, I know a LOT of terrans who just cheese every game. If you go into stream chats of terran players you will find that other people just cheese because they do NOT WANT TO GO INTO A MACRO GAME. Also we do NOT HAVE THE LATEST DATA on winrates, I strongly suspect this data will differ greatly from previous months. It is important to mind that at the bottom leagues balance is completely different as well. One more thing, I can guarentee 90+% of the people saying "terran need to do this, terran need to do that" need to play the dang race before they comment. I hear so many people who have never touched terran in their life going "make blue flame vs zealot you nub idiots". I can tell you right now offracing even 10 games as zerg and protoss opened my eyes drastically to how the game functioned and what the weaknesses of the race were. That is the only way you can gain knowledge of the game, theorycrafting doesn't work. Like I said before. Better cheese every single one of your games than trying to figure out how to play a TvP that goes past 15 minutes. What's interesting is that even if Blizzard patched TvP, you still wouldn't have a clue about how to play the matchup. It's not like protoss ever has trouble past the 15 minute mark with multiple drops in various locations and ghosts shutting down every high templar and sentry as well as eating away all the shields instantly, and it's not like protoss ever has trouble with concussive shell kiting before charge etc. The matchup can go both ways, and it's not exactly easy for the toss either much of the time. Oh yeah I agree with you, that was just a sarcastic poke at those guys that prefer to cheese every game out of laziness once they encounter a tougher situation. It appears that like most people out there, you didn't take the time to read half my post before impulsively writing a few lines with 0 substance in them. I have played MANY games vs protoss past the 15 minute mark. I have tried MANY different things. I can say for certain that YOU have NOT. I suggest you try it before criticizing anyone. After hundreds of games and an abysmal win percentage, I have decided that it is not worth raising my blood pressure trying to play a macro game. Terran is the unforgiving race in that I have been 3/3 vs 1/1 and gotten crushed in the blink of an eye while being up 70 supply, these are rage inducing types of situations that I do not want to happen, after all I am playing a game, and games are meant to be for fun are they not? If you a number of high level terran none of them like going into a long game vs protoss, its just the way it is. I am not sure why I even bothered responding, as I doubt you will read this post before shooting off a couple lines of "terran scum qquing again lulz l2play terran so ez." but again I highly suggest trying out a couple games of TVP.
Well you can say for certain that I haven't played many long games vs Protoss, that's not too hard, I play Protoss.
More seriously, I'm not saying Terran is easy. And I did try Terran out and it didn't seem particularly hard to me either, I mean, I can beat diamond Protoss fairly easily with my offrace if it means something. I have what I would consider very good mechanics for an amateur, so Terran's requirements (supposedly higher) are not a problem for me. What's your level? I would guess diamond or something, because I don't think that master terrans have a problem with 15 minutes protoss (it's harder for them against a 20-25 minutes protoss on big maps, I guess). I mean, how the fuck can you lose a 3/3 vs 1/1 fight with 70 more supply? 3/3 hellions vs 1/1 void rays maybe? What the hell man, even A-move is enough with 3-3 MMM stim with that much advantage, against most comps (even banelings, colossus, storm...). I would gladly see the replay of that 
But I wasn't really trying to diss you, Terran is hard, we get it. If you're frustrated with the matchup, there is little I can do, but the problem comes mainly from you, not from the game. TvP is not impossible to the point where you risk cardiac arrest...
Edit: I want to precise a bit the "LOLOL I have good mechanics" part. It's to the point where I rarely miss something on the minimap, my macro doesn't slip up, I rarely miss pylons, my micro is pretty decent (4 control groups and casting multiple spells are not a problem). I have 120 APM (post patch) past 15 minutes. What I mean is I don't lose because I fucked up mechanically most of the time. I lose because I made bad decisions, I didn't scout enough, my build was bad (but most of them are good :D), something strategy related. It's not to the point where I'm a fucking BW god with unparalleled multitasking either, don't get me wrong. But I'm quite proud of where I'm at mechanically.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
Ok protoss bias consider this, look at TvT or BW TvP.
BW TvP : Mech vs Arbiter zealot/goon/HT/shuttle - protoss would use their moibilty advantage to counter attack and pull tanks out of position to get a good enagement. This required ALOT of skill and understanding from both players. Mech is technically supposed to destroy protoss in a straight up engagement.
SC2 TvT: Mech vs BIO is the same idea using mobility to take down a mech army but mech will still destroy bio in a straight up engagement.
SC2: TvP: Bio vs DEATHBALL were meant to abuse our mobility to beat a toss ball of death buit the HUGE problem is collosus and the ball of death is HUGELY mobile and increibly easy to control. The increibly frustrating and gay thing is that a PRO with a deathball and a ladder noob with a deathball is exactly the same thing. It requires exactly NO SKILL what so ever to use. Collosus is incredibly mobile and this is the biggest problem in this matchup but coupled with the fact zealots with upgrades block your army so well you cant do much dmg to anything.
So basically were meant to be using out mobility to win but that doesnt exactly work because TOSS is so mobile. Macro advantages and upgrade advantages are meaning less in this matchup no matter how big the advantage most of the time a bad protoss player can string together a few good engagements because of collosus melting your bio so fast you cant do anything.
And let me remind protoss players right clicking is NOT micro for collosus its so mobile it seems to outrun non-stimmed bio which is kind of hilarious. Yes spreading bio can help but if you cant deal with the collosus instantly.
Protoss _shouldnt_ loose TvP at all its increible how many bad protoss players are replying to this thread pretending they understand the game at all i am diamond Zerg and diamond Terran I understand those races very well. Protoss drives me crazy look at the latest TvP games in GSL and dreamhack they were soo shit to watch nothing really happens.
i only win in TvP if they cheese me and i defend or I get some good damage done with drops in the midgame and go for a timming because my upgrades are better. Its so gimicky this matchup its insane. And its so frustring that protoss can get away with so much be so far behind but warpgates and chrono keep them in the game along with such an amazing defenders advantage with Storm in their choke or collosus its really not fair how hard this matchup is for terran.
I have played countless games in TvP got coaching from incontrol in TvP but as of today i have given up trying to macro vs protoss its entirely stupidly hard for terran to do so.
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The protoss army is hugely mobile. Hmph. That's news to me. How fast does that unit that zergs always bitch about move? How fast does the toss ball with collosi or worse with templar (worst spellcaster) move? Now once we get our arbiter back <3...
It's complete fallacy and myth that a terran army can't engage a toss one and destroy it completely in a straightup battle. We have /seen/ this repeatedly in the past few months with broken emp (unequal radius and damage) and viking counts straight up crushing better toss players repeatedly. Thorzain's style before this was one based on compensating for low apm (something in the foreign scene attributed with terrans [Sjow, Thorzain, Goody]).
You central premise of your argument is that it takes especially positioning and engagement for a terran army to crush a toss army. I don't think that's true in the sense that it was true with engagements on tank lines in BW. Toss can get screwed as hard and still lack the ability to retreat without being super efficient in a straight up engagement. In BW atleast the tank army would be damn efficient in wiping out a force. (Also Terran force had an excellent harass unit in the form of 'free" vultures). Bio is very mobile and does way more damage than a BW toss army ever did.
Your talk about defenders advantage and macro advantage are completely and utterly off the mark. +1 ground attack scales better than any protoss forge ups. I believe it was alicia who made some lovely post about +3/+3 toss eclipsed by +1/+1 (atleast with marauders in his example). There /are/ tech timings where a toss is safe from a certain critical mass of bio overwhelming him unless you can catch him out of position or you have tech to crush it. Still you have so many options that I still believe there are few reasons for terrans to be behind economically ever. Within a month or two the new surge of 2 base timings will be understood and good terrans will still crush the more fragile races.
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On December 02 2011 03:29 redbrain wrote:
Protoss _shouldnt_ loose TvP at all its increible how many bad protoss players are replying to this thread pretending they understand the game at all i am diamond Zerg and diamond Terran I understand those races very well. Protoss drives me crazy look at the latest TvP games in GSL and dreamhack they were soo shit to watch nothing really happens.
Well, let's all apologize to this guy for our poor understanding of the game and it's matchups.
He's in DIAMOND, and clearly knows what's up. Looks like the rest of us can stop posting now that he's in this thread laying down the law.
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The people stating that bunkers are enough, are clearly not terran themselves, or are atleast below diamond. Early game, bunkers help of course, but they don't do the trick, as toss have ff's and lots of aoe in the midgame, which also gives the protoss a defenders advantage.
With force fields, the toss can basicly make an infinite unbreakable wall, while trapping units in the process. Terrans can't just build bunkers and close zealots in a tiny spot, i wish we could though. Medivacs are becoming very important (or have been the entire time) because of mobility. Terran has always had the mobility advantage, until recently with the massive usage of warp prisms.
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I think if people want the match-up to be fixed they need to remove both the colossus and the marauder and rethink it from there cause these are the big units that are causing problems for either race.
Terran moaning about templar still need to learn that ghosts outrange them
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On December 02 2011 03:29 redbrain wrote:
Ok protoss bias consider this, look at TvT or BW TvP.
BW TvP : Mech vs Arbiter zealot/goon/HT/shuttle - protoss would use their moibilty advantage to counter attack and pull tanks out of position to get a good enagement. This required ALOT of skill and understanding from both players. Mech is technically supposed to destroy protoss in a straight up engagement.
SC2 TvT: Mech vs BIO is the same idea using mobility to take down a mech army but mech will still destroy bio in a straight up engagement.
SC2: TvP: Bio vs DEATHBALL were meant to abuse our mobility to beat a toss ball of death buit the HUGE problem is collosus and the ball of death is HUGELY mobile and increibly easy to control. The increibly frustrating and gay thing is that a PRO with a deathball and a ladder noob with a deathball is exactly the same thing. It requires exactly NO SKILL what so ever to use. Collosus is incredibly mobile and this is the biggest problem in this matchup but coupled with the fact zealots with upgrades block your army so well you cant do much dmg to anything.
So basically were meant to be using out mobility to win but that doesnt exactly work because TOSS is so mobile. Macro advantages and upgrade advantages are meaning less in this matchup no matter how big the advantage most of the time a bad protoss player can string together a few good engagements because of collosus melting your bio so fast you cant do anything.
And let me remind protoss players right clicking is NOT micro for collosus its so mobile it seems to outrun non-stimmed bio which is kind of hilarious. Yes spreading bio can help but if you cant deal with the collosus instantly.
Protoss _shouldnt_ loose TvP at all its increible how many bad protoss players are replying to this thread pretending they understand the game at all i am diamond Zerg and diamond Terran I understand those races very well. Protoss drives me crazy look at the latest TvP games in GSL and dreamhack they were soo shit to watch nothing really happens.
i only win in TvP if they cheese me and i defend or I get some good damage done with drops in the midgame and go for a timming because my upgrades are better. Its so gimicky this matchup its insane. And its so frustring that protoss can get away with so much be so far behind but warpgates and chrono keep them in the game along with such an amazing defenders advantage with Storm in their choke or collosus its really not fair how hard this matchup is for terran.
I have played countless games in TvP got coaching from incontrol in TvP but as of today i have given up trying to macro vs protoss its entirely stupidly hard for terran to do so.
I second that. This myth that has been going on since forever that the protoss army is immobile is fucking ridiculous. Play mech and see what immobile means.
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It's not about these two units. The whole matchup has been volatile since the release of sc2. Both races are constantly trying to punish tiny little mistakes and those tiny little mistakes have greater impact than they should have.
One single drop, one single emp, one single missing bunker, missing forcefield, missing stim or storm can cost you the game. Fights usually go very onesided. Toss lack a good defenders advantage, but have strong pushes etc etc.
2 removals won't fix the matchup
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EPT
