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On November 29 2011 14:55 Qibla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 13:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 29 2011 10:46 Qibla wrote:On November 29 2011 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Obviously TvP is not broken in Protoss's favor, or else most of the best players in the entire world would not be Terran. Flawed logic. Race does not determine skill. I'm sure if MVP picked protoss or zerg. He'd still be best player in the world. I never said that race determines skill, but it's quite easy to make your argument when you know you never have to actually support it. The top players aren't going to be race-switching any time soon. TLO just switched to Zerg. Morrow also switched. They are still pro, but haven't performed any better or worse after their switch, because that's what their skill level. Argument supported  Show nested quote +If it were impossible for Terran to beat Protoss (which is what the OP is saying), you would see Protoss dominating at the highest levels, and you've almost never seen that in the history of SC2 (except for MC's solo GSL runs and a few other blips on the radar), let alone recently. What you instead have been seeing is a majority of Terrans at the top (peppered with some Zerg success, a la Nestea), and across the leagues you see that the match-ups are balanced, not that TvP is impossible for Terran. To an extent what he is saying is true, though it only applies to a Diamond level player. The pro's have much better multitasking and mechanics, so are able to capitalize on the advantages Terran has as a race. A Diamond level player doesn't have these skills, but an equivalent skill level Protoss player has the skills to be able to abuse Protoss' strengths. Basically Protoss is easier to play, but the skill cap is lower, so a bad Protoss player should beat a bad Terran player, and a pro Terran player should beat a pro Protoss player.
1. Except TLO and Morrow aren't even remotely close to being the best players in the world, so those "examples" are ridiculous.
2. Except the skill ceiling of each race hasn't even been remotely approached yet, so it's silly to say that a pro Terran player *should* beat a pro Protoss player unless TvP is completely imbalanced towards Terran. And I don't feel like whining about imbalance >.>
Personally, I'm done with this thread. Have a wonderful night 
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned but, Gateway units are less cost-effective than Barracks units in general so once Terran caught up in upgrades in the late game, they would still be in great shape.
And in regards to warp-in, Terran has PFs, Sensor Towers, and Mules to free up supply for more army. I just don't see how things are broken for Terran here.
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On November 29 2011 04:14 Flonomenalz wrote:
Protoss could say the exact same thing with late game Terran armies EMP'ing everything with 10 full energy cloaked ghosts.
I totally know what you mean I feel like EMP needs a 44% nerf...
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On November 29 2011 15:49 Crysack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far. Explain to me how a two minor changes to upgrade costs and EMP radius broke the match-up? The upgrade buffs did absolutely nothing to change Protoss timing attacks since the timings of the upgrades remained exactly the same. The ONLY thing which changed is that now Protoss can get an extra zealot + sentry or two on top of their upgrades - so now double forge gateway styles are mildly safer to pull off. The EMP radius, at least in my own experience, has made absolutely no difference at all. The EMP now covers the same area as storm and, given the fact that Terrans were already building 8+ ghosts and just blanketing the Protoss army with EMPs, this has made absolutely no tangible difference whatsoever. Show nested quote + Where Protoss has the advantage of being able to reinforce their army much faster, Terrans have the ability to heavily fortify a key position. This dynamic I think is still evolving and we'll see more of it soon. But there's more to it than that. Warp-ins are balanced by the fact that gateway units are the least cost-effective tier 1-1.5 units in the game. They need to be backed up by splash damage, which cannot be instantly reinforced, to stand a chance against MMM
Why doesn't anyone understand what this dude wrote. And to reiterate, Protoss tier 1-1.5 is PURPOSELY weaker, to negate the fact they can warp-in, but since when defending warp-in matters very little, Protoss actually have the weaker defenders advantage of the two, there was a HUGE post with facts about this already, too lazy to find it, edit later. So many raging fail Terrans in here claiming Terran has the weaker defenders advantage, TL has really gone downhill with all the false claims.
update: found the post for the people too dense to understand Defenders Advantage http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=263636
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On November 29 2011 04:32 archonOOid wrote:
I agree pvt is a boring matchup with really powerful spells that can turn the tide really fast which has resulted in another thread about pvt passivity. We can only hope for HotS at this moment in time.
Exactly. Your army gets stormed at a bad time GG.
Your army gets EMP'd before you FF/Storm GG, but this isn't as big after the nerf, but it's still huge
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On November 29 2011 17:25 deadmau wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 15:49 Crysack wrote:On November 29 2011 12:02 mlspmatt wrote:On November 29 2011 09:40 Qibla wrote:
1 month ago, ALL protoss were crying "TERRAN OP, NEEDS NERF, PROTOSS NEEDS BUFF, MATCH-UP IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!""
Terran said, "How bout you try a new build"..... they did.
Now terran is saying "PROTOSS OP, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF!!!"
I think I know what will come next.
(I'm terran btw, and I'd love a buff, but seeing as Blizzard only nerfs terran to solve problems, then I think I'll just keep my eye out for a new build.) Well, Blizzard did come to the rescue for Protoss. It wasn't a "New Build" that changed the MU, Blizzard did. Granted an adjustment was needed but it's entirely possible they went too far. Explain to me how a two minor changes to upgrade costs and EMP radius broke the match-up? The upgrade buffs did absolutely nothing to change Protoss timing attacks since the timings of the upgrades remained exactly the same. The ONLY thing which changed is that now Protoss can get an extra zealot + sentry or two on top of their upgrades - so now double forge gateway styles are mildly safer to pull off. The EMP radius, at least in my own experience, has made absolutely no difference at all. The EMP now covers the same area as storm and, given the fact that Terrans were already building 8+ ghosts and just blanketing the Protoss army with EMPs, this has made absolutely no tangible difference whatsoever. Where Protoss has the advantage of being able to reinforce their army much faster, Terrans have the ability to heavily fortify a key position. This dynamic I think is still evolving and we'll see more of it soon. But there's more to it than that. Warp-ins are balanced by the fact that gateway units are the least cost-effective tier 1-1.5 units in the game. They need to be backed up by splash damage, which cannot be instantly reinforced, to stand a chance against MMM Why doesn't anyone understand what this dude wrote. And to reiterate, Protoss tier 1-1.5 is PURPOSELY weaker, to negate the fact they can warp-in, but since when defending warp-in matters very little, Protoss actually have the weaker defenders advantage of the two, there was a HUGE post with facts about this already, too lazy to find it, edit later. So many idiots in here claiming Terran has the weaker defenders advantage, god so many noobs on TL now.
Defenders advantage and early game isn't a problem in TvP this guy just doesn't know how to defend them. Protoss is really strong in the late game with the warp inns as you said they are made to be week unless protoss hits a timming his army is weak and a protoss can only defend with forcefields.
I myself feel like I've got a free win if a protoss tries to 4 gate me or 3 gate robo.
Isn't the new metagame for protoss that's allowing them to take wins lately very passive?
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That appears to be the trend, but there's not yet enough evidence.
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Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup!
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On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup!
Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much.
Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO.
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I wouldn't say TvP is heavily imbalanced towards either side, but what I dislike about playing it (as Terran) is how the match will 99% of the time never be close.
Either I'll get a great concave, moneyshot EMPs and kite the Zealots properly and steamroll over the Protoss army like it wasn't even there.
Or, I get demolished by good Force Fields, well microed Colossi and Storms with Chargelots up front.
Nearly always it's one big battle and that is it, either Terran hulk smashes the Protoss army or the Protoss army hulk smashes the Terran army.
EMP, Storm, Force Fields, Stim/Stutter, Colossi, Vikings all turn TvP engagements into a win or lose the game engagement.
I brought MMM/Ghost but no Vikings against a Colossi army? GG for Terran.
Protoss brought Gateway/HT to my MMM/Ghost army? GG for Protoss.
The game can be decided so fast and harshly in TvP that it feels hard to learn much from being hulk smashed (other than that you didn't bring enough of Critical Unit X) or doing the hulk smashing.
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OMG GET IT TOGETHER STUPID TERRANS!
Since the fucking beta, you have been on top of every matchup, now when your retardet all ins dont work as well anymore you start whinning about imbalance.
Guys in diamond
You wanna know why you lose all the time? Because you do nothing, NOTHING. Half of diamond players dont use medivacs for drops, but just let them save of energy so they can get Fedbacked by the Templar.
Second, have you heard of the ghost? Even thougth the ghost have been nerfed, it is still strong as shit, and can demolish a toss army, with a few good EMP's.
Exploit your race Plzzz, like you told toss when we where complaining, agression is the answer.
Like a fellow toss said, drops at 200/200 suply can do MASSIVE damage, attack 3 different places at once, is hard for the toss.
Cause yeaah, with no real skill(no one has in diamond) you cant deal with 200/200 deathball, it takes skille to kite marine marauders, vikings, and land EMP's
Therefor you must hurt the toss, instead of just sitting back on your ass.
Aggresion is the key.
Damn it pisses me of when a terran makes a QQ thread. You have never had under 50% in any matchup, and the second you get in a little trouble, you all start whine like crazy, get some skills, and exsploit your race.
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On November 29 2011 17:52 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup! Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much. Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO.
I wouldn't give Protoss all the credit of "Finding a new build" that changed the match up drastically. It was Blizzard who changed it with the constant Protoss Buffs and constant Terran nerfs. If people can't see this MU is disgustingly broken right now, this SC2 community is much more biased against Terran then what I originally thought.
I don't care what people think is balanced at that high prestige professional level of SC2. When I play a game where I clearly out macro my opponent, money is low, I stutter step, get at least mediocre emps off I expect to get much better results against a Toss who is floating at least 500 - 700 minerals that just 1 A's me.
Yeah, sure Terran will find a build. But I'm kinda worried right now, we have our top level Terrans playing 30+ games p/day and studying it. Yet, still nothing new that is effective.
All I can say for fellow Terrans is you can either;
1. Learn variations of the 1-1-1 and perfect those builds down to a T. Don't let the game get past 15 minutes.
2. Keep trying to work on that perfect micro, but be prepared to lose a shitload of games even if it seems like you are completely out playing your Protoss opponent.
People might accuse me of "oh you have a bad attitude herpa derpa." That's great, you keep thinking that. But I like to at least have a snowballs chance of winning in the late game against a Protoss.
And in reply to Kawaiirice (I love your streams bro and have learned HEAPS), but I find it offensive when I have my hands racing across the keyboard just to try and keep up with a Protoss build that my 6 year old brother can do.
I'm out and done with this thread, all of you Tosses can keep coming in trying to back up you pathetic Chargelot/Archon composition saying it's not OP and takes skill to utilise.
Peace,
Your best friend ZorBa.G xoxoxox
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On November 29 2011 18:52 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 17:52 Tyrant0 wrote:On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup! Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much. Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO. I wouldn't give Protoss all the credit of "Finding a new build" that changed the match up drastically. It was Blizzard who changed it with the constant Protoss Buffs and constant Terran nerfs. If people can't see this MU is disgustingly broken right now, this SC2 community is much more biased against Terran then what I originally thought. I don't care what people think is balanced at that high prestige professional level of SC2. When I play a game where I clearly out macro my opponent, money is low, I stutter step, get at least mediocre emps off I expect to get much better results against a Toss who is floating at least 500 - 700 minerals that just 1 A's me. Yeah, sure Terran will find a build. But I'm kinda worried right now, we have our top level Terrans playing 30+ games p/day and studying it. Yet, still nothing new that is effective. All I can say for fellow Terrans is you can either; 1. Learn variations of the 1-1-1 and perfect those builds down to a T. Don't let the game get past 15 minutes. 2. Keep trying to work on that perfect micro, but be prepared to lost a shitload of games even if it seems like you are completely out playing your Protoss opponent. People might accuse me of "oh you have a bad attitude herpa derpa." That's great, you keep thinking that. But I like to at least have a snowballs chance of winning in the late game against a Protoss. And in reply to Kawaiirice (I love your streams bro and have learned HEAPS), but I find it offensive when I have my hands racing across the keyboard just to try and keep up with a Protoss build that my 6 year old brother can do. I'm out and done with this thread, all of you Tosses can keep coming in trying to back up you pathetic Chargelot/Archon composition saying it's not OP and takes skill to utilise. Peace, Your best friend ZorBa.G xoxoxox
When did I say it was all protoss? Your post reeks of shameless bias.
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ForGG from BW!
lol wrong thread sorry
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On November 29 2011 18:52 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 17:52 Tyrant0 wrote:On November 29 2011 17:42 50bani wrote:
Everybody agrees that TvP is not a well balanced matchup. Even if the numbers are close, the way the game plays, there is a huge advantage for Terran at one time and for Protoss at another. People are having trouble because they are not abusing their edges well enough.
As for OP, I encourage you to throw 20 games of vT and vZ. Your mmr is so fucked up that you are meeting Protosses too good for you. Otherwise get practice partners and learn with them, of course if you can get equal skill level opponents that is. In a way, you are as imbalanced as the matchup! Who is agreeing? A while ago it was extremely balanced. It was only when Korean Terrans started EMP'ing way better that Protoss fell behind, and now Protoss cracked a new build to keep up, through upgrades. The meta game for PvT has shifted drastically the last 6-8 months with the advent of each new build. Theres no way you can blanket the entire match-up with such a generalization that it's not a balanced match up when the 'perceived balance' fluctuates so much. Ultimately, skill level has dictated the match-up, and has given plenty of room for both Terrans and Protoss to win through innovation, sheer mechanics, and simply being better- is a better blanket statement, IMO. I wouldn't give Protoss all the credit of "Finding a new build" that changed the match up drastically. It was Blizzard who changed it with the constant Protoss Buffs and constant Terran nerfs. If people can't see this MU is disgustingly broken right now, this SC2 community is much more biased against Terran then what I originally thought. I don't care what people think is balanced at that high prestige professional level of SC2. When I play a game where I clearly out macro my opponent, money is low, I stutter step, get at least mediocre emps off I expect to get much better results against a Toss who is floating at least 500 - 700 minerals that just 1 A's me. Yeah, sure Terran will find a build. But I'm kinda worried right now, we have our top level Terrans playing 30+ games p/day and studying it. Yet, still nothing new that is effective. All I can say for fellow Terrans is you can either; 1. Learn variations of the 1-1-1 and perfect those builds down to a T. Don't let the game get past 15 minutes. 2. Keep trying to work on that perfect micro, but be prepared to lose a shitload of games even if it seems like you are completely out playing your Protoss opponent. People might accuse me of "oh you have a bad attitude herpa derpa." That's great, you keep thinking that. But I like to at least have a snowballs chance of winning in the late game against a Protoss. And in reply to Kawaiirice (I love your streams bro and have learned HEAPS), but I find it offensive when I have my hands racing across the keyboard just to try and keep up with a Protoss build that my 6 year old brother can do. I'm out and done with this thread, all of you Tosses can keep coming in trying to back up you pathetic Chargelot/Archon composition saying it's not OP and takes skill to utilise. Peace, Your best friend ZorBa.G xoxoxox
how are the pro terrans having a problem? (looking at GSL they seem to be doing more then fine)
and you really think the game should be balanced around your incompetence instead of the highest level of play?
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Sweden33719 Posts
What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess
... Its such a joke that terran is better than protoss early game - protoss is RIDICULOUSLY much stronger early game. There are a million viable allins for P, not so for terran anymore.
MIDGAME is where terran is the strongest. Before P has the economy needed to support double tech trees.
Late game is a joke. Switching constantly between how many colossus/templar/archon you make + how insane 3-3-3 zealots are.......
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Finally someone who nearly noone in this forum can disagree with says something about the amount of different all ins terran can die to early game.
THANK YOU.
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THIS IS PRETTY CLEAR
Protoses dosn't want to admit that is fucking broken and they say that our allins are broken, just because they dont know how to stop it.
Terran can't win a single late game, thats why we are alliners, and we can't win against good protoss because EVERY allin can be stopped with fast robo.
SO:
Close this thread, pointless to discuss something like this, expansion should fix it.
PS: this is not just a balance problem, its a game design problem, it coudln't be fixed with patches widthout making terran / protoss OP or UP.
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EPT
