EPT[D] TvP and defenders advantage - Page 4
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ZOMGitsTHEEND
Canada202 Posts
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Basher_
82 Posts
1) get gas, get 1/2 marines, then tech lab, two mauraders with concussive shells... and push while building an expo on the lowground. That push messes up most tosses. You usually get a stalker or zealot, sometimes a sentry and sometimes even a bunch of probes. often you can get a scout too. 2) no gas one rax. prevent scout. build marines. CC on the high ground. this one's weak to an early stalker push so big maps only and even then maybe only when they scout late. after you start the CC, build 2 or 3 more rax and AT LEAST 3 bunkers. often 4. depending on map and scout. and pull scvs to repair. that's usually the definative moment in the game. often they'll scout your FE and try to 3-gate/robo you. if you hold it, you have a huge advantage. marines are great. don't just get marauders. meanwhile get stim, build a fact, then a starport, then a reactor on the fact, swap, build 2 medvacs and push again. either straight into the front or use one medvac to drop and distract while the main group runs in and snipes a nexus. if you still haven't won move into vikings for colo and ghosts for ht / everything. good EMP, kiting, targetting immortals or colos, etc. I do drops but only as a way to distract them or pull their army away. Also from watching GSL, very few terrans play a drop focused game against toss. observers / blink / warp ins are very good at limiting damage from a drop. plus it splits your army and leaves you open to a huge power move up the middle. I see it as the Polt / Puma / Thorzain TvP style to me its all about overpowering them with macro. I sometimes lose in the late late game but that's only cuz I can't quite pull off the Puma / Thorzain level of late game army control. when they have lots of HT and colo and archon, its just hard to win. but i think that's more a problem of letting them macro earlier on. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
Winrates Prove that for a long time, statistics have yet to fall below 50% in PvT (Which they have not ever since release, ridiculous!) I have and always sucked in PvZ for example even when it was protoss favored...even if winning, never felt comfortable. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 29 2011 04:36 mvtaylor wrote: I'd really wish that, for once people would drop this stuff about EMP... EMP takes off (with the exception of Archons) 50% hp max and against Zealots it does very very little since they have more armour hp and are far more likely to have armour upgrades than shield, along with having innate armour. So while a Protoss army can take EMPs and live if a T takes a full storm their army is basically dead. If you engage in one spot where you don't have the space to micro away from storms and P lands one (assuming everything else in game is equal) it's basically gg. Unless T facerolls a P army they can't convert that push in to severe economic damage as a use every gate chargelot warp in will stop the remnants of a T army in its tracks. It is far easier to get the full effect of the EMP that it is to get the full effect of the storm. For a storm to do full damage, the terran units must remain under it for 4 ingame second. As stimed marines and marauders move faster than any other ground unit with the exception of zerglings and hellions, it is difficult to to get the "prefect storm". This is compunded by the fact that the high templar moves the same speed as a thor. Also, with zealot charge, storm does damage to protoss units as well, which have a habit of charging into the AOE. Both spells are very effective at their given task. But if I think terrans would be just as sad if protoss had a spell that did exactly 40% damage to all terran units instantly. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On November 29 2011 04:49 Endrew wrote: Usually your ghosts will die long before they can throw those emps, unless you're a korean pr0 with 300 APM. Also, pls show me a diamond toss who plays pure Lolossi as his only AoE at the time when T can have 12-16 Vikings....BTW. do you have any idea how many Vikings can T have when Toss goes for 2 base 2 lolossi push? sorry, but colossi are a unit that get better with numbers, they're fairly weak at 2...all you need to do to wreck them is get a few units into position behind the P army and boom dead "lolossi" also, sorry i dont play vs diamonds so i really wouldnt know that you guys arent capable of dealing with this stuff...all of my practice partners are high masters/gm so im used to the terrans being able to nail their emps -___- also 300apm isnt that hard to get, if you go by sc2gears at least, blizz really fucked up the ingame apm thing...that should read eap45s | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
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spajn
34 Posts
The thing is its very easy to distribute your money on that composition since zealots are only minerals and HT are mostly gas, and the army operates best with just 1a (if he stays on zealot & archon) which is why i think for diamond level protoss has huge advantage because the terran player have to: 1) scout what composition protoss is going for 2) drop harass constantly 3) not get caught in FF 4) stutter step 5) carpet bomb emp maybe the matchup is balance at higher levels but at diamond im struggeling, I also find the matchup kinda boring since in almost every battle one side is winning by huge margin, its almost never equal trades. So it often boils down to one quick battle and gg | ||
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Alexstrasas
302 Posts
On November 29 2011 04:16 aTnClouD wrote: I think defensive planetaries are pretty strong late game, that's pretty much everything terran needs for it. What really bothers me is this insane warpgate that is better than normal gateway and the fact protoss can chronoboost forge upgrades (R I D I C O L O U S). These are the reasons right now terrans are having an hard time. Protoss players have learnt to defend all the early game stuff with FE builds and now they just have no problem dealing with the matchup anymore. Completely agree with everything you said, regarding the upgrades part specificly i always find amusing when a caster points out that battle X or Y was lost because protoss is sitting on 3-3 while terran is "only" 2-1 or 2-2 or something, im always like O´RLY? | ||
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jemag
Canada98 Posts
Anyway, I don't think anything good or useful will come out of this thread for you. Would probably be better to just post in the strategy section to ask for some help on your TvP. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
On November 29 2011 04:08 ZenithM wrote: Haha, what tipped the matchup so much in favor of Protoss recently? immortal range? EMP? It's surely not cheaper upgrades, they add like 1 unit at the minute 15. I see an incredible amount of "TvP impossible imba imba help me!!!" while Protoss' threads are like "Is that 1 gate FE really optimal? I dunno, I have only 80% winrate with it" :D You would be a fool not to admit that TvP looks hard for low level players now. What a fortune reversal this is. the mu was always toss favored outside of the 1/1/1, which toss players have been slowly figuring out. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Sadly, with the state of TvP in Korea as of late you aren't allowed to complain as a terran player here. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
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Gemini_19
United States1238 Posts
On November 29 2011 03:59 FreudianTrip wrote: I know I'm bad and everything but couldn't you... micro your tanks? Wait wut...? | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
To be fair, both their statements hardly made any sense. | ||
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Raambo11
United States828 Posts
As if this were not enough you cannot just warp in 10 helions like the protoss can warp in different tech, you need 5 reactored factories pumping out helions to match the zealot warp ins that are going to be hitting you. If you went bio this is impossible to do because of the time it takes to get up and because you wont have the money to support that many factories, let alone along with your rax. Many top terran's are having trouble with this lategame composition and clide has even talked about it. Concerning defenders advantage, the protoss has the upper hand long with aggression. If terran wants to 2 rax pressure for instance, it will not even come close to killing even the greediest of builds like 1 gate FE or even 14 nexus depending on the map. This is because you have to wait 40s or so for your units to walk across the map, by which time your opponent will be able to hold. In terms of aggression, this disadvantage does not apply to protoss because of warp in. They do not have to walk across the map much as zerg and terran do, but instead can warp in their units right in front of the opponent. This takes away the usual defenders advantage of quick reinforcements, which will usually allow your army to be larger for a few moments because your rounds of units will arrive faster, vs protoss this is no longer the case. These are just simple facts of the game, not complaints, and need to be thought about. @Basher, you sound like your just outplaying your opponent, not many people can do the things you described in diamond let alone plat. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote: You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now. hop on the bandwagon why don't you? Double forge was happening long before the 1.4.2 protoss buff. The (recent) buffs aren't what helped protoss, it was TIME (and the immortal buff but that was a patch before). The players finally got over their humps and realized how to play protoss correctly. Some players have been doing it all along, but it hasn't showed until now and I don't think it's because of the patch. The skill gap is closing between all of the races, for a long time it was terran then it was zerg (protoss for a little while with MC and huk in 2010) then terran and now protoss finally. Sure the protoss buff helped, but there was no decrease in research time so the chronoboosting 2 forges isn't something new here. If anything the immortal buff ruined the 1/1/1 all-in which everyone agreed was cheap, and now that's gone suddenly protoss is OP? As if... Terrans are still doing fine, it's not like every terran is out of the gsl, if anything this is probably one of the most racially balanced gsl's EVER. The past two MLG's and even IGN was very racially balanced with a zerg, protoss and zerg winning those events. I think it's worth it to discuss the current metagame but don't just take what ONE pro terran player says as truth. Maybe there is some truth to it, but what I'm asking here is for you to think before you blindly believe something. With that said I think zealots are extremely strong late game with 3/3 but so are marines. I've been seeing a ton of top gsl terrans going double e-bay just to keep up with the protoss and it seems to work. Plus most terrans win their games by whittling down their opponents by doing timing attacks (and not over extending), doing drops and harassing. To me it kinda feels like protoss can just sit back where terran has to play like a zerg (not that, that's a bad thing). | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote: You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now. You mean their win rate dropped to 50% vs protoss? Because the stats from last month do not back up that statement. Protoss got better, better builds came out. Better players got into the GSL and showcased builds that are bad ass. EMP was brought in line with the other spells in the game and requires some level of aim to use. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On November 29 2011 05:17 emc wrote: hop on the bandwagon why don't you? Double forge was happening long before the 1.4.2 protoss buff. The (recent) buffs aren't what helped protoss, it was TIME (and the immortal buff but that was a patch before). The players finally got over their humps and realized how to play protoss correctly. Some players have been doing it all along, but it hasn't showed until now and I don't think it's because of the patch. The skill gap is closing between all of the races, for a long time it was terran then it was zerg (protoss for a little while with MC and huk in 2010) then terran and now protoss finally. Sure the protoss buff helped, but there was no decrease in research time so the chronoboosting 2 forges isn't something new here. If anything the immortal buff ruined the 1/1/1 all-in which everyone agreed was cheap, and now that's gone suddenly protoss is OP? As if... Terrans are still doing fine, it's not like every terran is out of the gsl, if anything this is probably one of the most racially balanced gsl's EVER. The past two MLG's and even IGN was very racially balanced with a zerg, protoss and zerg winning those events. I think it's worth it to discuss the current metagame but don't just take what ONE pro terran player says as truth. Maybe there is some truth to it, but what I'm asking here is for you to think before you blindly believe something. =.="' Say something as the everyday casual player, opinion gets dismissed as what happens in "the wooden leagues" don't matter. Cite what pros have said, I'm hoping on the bandwagon. I give up. I wasn't saying what ClouD said was definite truth. My post was mostly pointing out to the guy who I was replying to that it's not just the low league Terrans that are complaining. | ||
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Endrew
Poland73 Posts
On November 29 2011 04:58 unit wrote: sorry, but colossi are a unit that get better with numbers, they're fairly weak at 2...all you need to do to wreck them is get a few units into position behind the P army and boom dead "lolossi" also, sorry i dont play vs diamonds so i really wouldnt know that you guys arent capable of dealing with this stuff...all of my practice partners are high masters/gm so im used to the terrans being able to nail their emps -___- also 300apm isnt that hard to get, if you go by sc2gears at least, blizz really fucked up the ingame apm thing...that should read eap45s I believe we're talking about the current state of TvP at diamondish level here  I'm not talking about the balance in general since I know my limits. | ||
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
There are things to talk about in this matchup, like why at a high level tournament PvT best of 7 we saw zero games that went past 1 - 2 base all-in's (from both players). But you just talked about why you're having trouble with TvP and covered it up by saying it's a discussion of the matchup, just your discussion only consisted of balance whine. | ||
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