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hehe hellions actually are the perfect tank for anything the toss has against mech (archons do laughable damage on hellions, by the way). The problem though is tanks do almost no damage against everything the toss has. And the thing they do damage against can blink right on a tank so having one tank is no protection. So marauders are considered better because more mobile and no range disadvantage against toss, just slightly more supply taking.
And mech works against toss, but you need the know how. Always taking workers with you and always replace the workers, always repair, always change the map to your advantage with empty bunkers (empty bunkers aren't targeted and create chokepoints for only 25 minerals). Thors destroy air from toss if its stacked. Always build rebuild the units you will need (thats the hard part) and well your productions buildings cost 200/125 and you need tons and tons of them.
Its hard to play, but a toss can't win a straight up engagement unless they go for carriers. Only chance they have is to get you out of position or attack your bases. Anyway mech is just on another level of decision making, compared to any other play style. But it works even against toss after the tank damage nerf. But you have to go 4-5 base, to fund your production.
And i like worker rushes not only terran can do it. Basically you tell your opponent, played a bit risky, well let me show you cut to much around the corners. I like to punish muta going zerg that way as toss x3.
PS: bio is an aggressive strat, of course you lack defenses there, because you conter to defend. At best at a point where the opponent can't punish you for it by marching through your front door trying a base trade.
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On November 29 2011 04:14 LXR wrote:
The "macro mechanic" that saves terran is repairing. You need to have scv's pulled to your bunker as soon as you see they might be attacking. Being able to repair with a large amount of scv's lets terran hang on for an unreal amount of time. It's hard to push with both sentries and immortals to block the repairing, but if that happens.... you're kind of screwed. Unless you went overboard and made 2 + bunkers.
MC-style 6 gate is almost impossible to hold if he doesn't mess up sentry control. Look up the MC v MVP game on Tal Darim at Providence. MVP couldn't hold with 5 bunkers. (Granted, one wasn't positioned very well, but still)
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There are a 2 primary reasons why Protoss is doing well late game vs terran.
1) Warp gates (terran has to win eveyr single battle vs toss since they can rebuild faster).
2) Terrans cant use the gas income the get when they have more than 6-7 active geysers. Toss can always make HT.
However I feel like ravens might be a solution to reason 2 and to some extent reason 1.
Using upgraded turrets can block the way for chargelots (increasing defenders advantage).
Pdd is decent against stalkers.
3) Seeker missile should be pretyt good vs a 2 food toss army (cus of splash).
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I think defensive planetaries are pretty strong late game, that's pretty much everything terran needs for it. What really bothers me is this insane warpgate that is better than normal gateway and the fact protoss can chronoboost forge upgrades (R I D I C O L O U S). These are the reasons right now terrans are having an hard time. Protoss players have learnt to defend all the early game stuff with FE builds and now they just have no problem dealing with the matchup anymore.
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And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance.
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On November 29 2011 04:16 Hider wrote:
There are a 2 primary reasons why Protoss is doing well late game vs terran.
1) Warp gates (terran has to win eveyr single battle vs toss since they can rebuild faster).
2) Terrans cant use the gas income the get when they have more than 6-7 active geysers. Toss can always make HT.
However I feel like ravens might be a solution to reason 2 and to some extent reason 1.
Using upgraded turrets can block the way for chargelots (increasing defenders advantage).
Pdd is decent against stalkers.
3) Seeker missile should be pretyt good vs a 2 food toss army (cus of splash).
Ravens would be decent if they didn't get feedbacked by HT, honestly all their spells have such a short range that feedbacking a raven is ridiculously easy.
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On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance.
You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right?
Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now.
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On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now.
When I say prolevel I'm not talking about the opinion of players, I'm talking about pure numbers from tournaments. Idra still things Zerg can't win ZvP because all the units are trash.
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On November 29 2011 04:16 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:14 LXR wrote:
The "macro mechanic" that saves terran is repairing. You need to have scv's pulled to your bunker as soon as you see they might be attacking. Being able to repair with a large amount of scv's lets terran hang on for an unreal amount of time. It's hard to push with both sentries and immortals to block the repairing, but if that happens.... you're kind of screwed. Unless you went overboard and made 2 + bunkers. MC-style 6 gate is almost impossible to hold if he doesn't mess up sentry control. Look up the MC v MVP game on Tal Darim at Providence. MVP couldn't hold with 5 bunkers. (Granted, one wasn't positioned very well, but still)
Bad example. MVp made mistakes. He shouldn't try to block with suply deps. He should have had medis out as well. You can definitely hold it of if you play correctly.
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On November 29 2011 04:16 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:14 LXR wrote:
The "macro mechanic" that saves terran is repairing. You need to have scv's pulled to your bunker as soon as you see they might be attacking. Being able to repair with a large amount of scv's lets terran hang on for an unreal amount of time. It's hard to push with both sentries and immortals to block the repairing, but if that happens.... you're kind of screwed. Unless you went overboard and made 2 + bunkers. MC-style 6 gate is almost impossible to hold if he doesn't mess up sentry control. Look up the MC v MVP game on Tal Darim at Providence. MVP couldn't hold with 5 bunkers. (Granted, one wasn't positioned very well, but still)
You mean the game MVP went fast third with double eng. bays? Maybe not the best example.
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On November 29 2011 04:21 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now. When I say prolevel I'm not talking about the opinion of players, I'm talking about pure numbers from tournaments. Idra still things Zerg can't win ZvP because all the units are trash.
edit to avoid insane drama
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I'm a mid diamond Terran on EU and I'm also having terrible streak vs Pr0toss atm. I got nothing against their allins, this can be scouted and defended. What I'm losing most to recently is a camping Pr0toss, who defends harrassment properly(whats the big deal, they got warpins....) and moves out with 3-3 at 200 food. That army just won't die regardless of what Terran has, even if T hits his EMP's toss will just throw few FF's and run away...And usually if the game comes to 200 vs 200 even if T can crush Pr0tos's army, it will be back within few seconds. 20 3-3 chargelots insta warpin.....My worst nightmare 
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On November 29 2011 04:20 Grndr101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:16 Hider wrote:
There are a 2 primary reasons why Protoss is doing well late game vs terran.
1) Warp gates (terran has to win eveyr single battle vs toss since they can rebuild faster).
2) Terrans cant use the gas income the get when they have more than 6-7 active geysers. Toss can always make HT.
However I feel like ravens might be a solution to reason 2 and to some extent reason 1.
Using upgraded turrets can block the way for chargelots (increasing defenders advantage).
Pdd is decent against stalkers.
3) Seeker missile should be pretyt good vs a 2 food toss army (cus of splash).
Ravens would be decent if they didn't get feedbacked by HT, honestly all their spells have such a short range that feedbacking a raven is ridiculously easy.
Thats true. However most of the time the toss player will keep their HT in the back (to avoid getting emped). I guess this might become a micro war of not getting your Ravens too close to the toss HT, and if the ht get too close, you can try and emp them. But i kinda fear that the toss might get the better end of that.
Anyway if ravens are not really viable, i guess tvp lategame is definitely broken. Right now the terran has to win every battle late game, and if he loses (which he often will, cus of emp nerf) he loses the game. Toss can constantly tech switch and terran has to react perfectly all the time.
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This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill.
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On November 29 2011 04:16 aTnClouD wrote:
I think defensive planetaries are pretty strong late game, that's pretty much everything terran needs for it. What really bothers me is this insane warpgate that is better than normal gateway and the fact protoss can chronoboost forge upgrades (R I D I C O L O U S). These are the reasons right now terrans are having an hard time. Protoss players have learnt to defend all the early game stuff with FE builds and now they just have no problem dealing with the matchup anymore.
Defensive planetaries can only work if the planteries protect your expansions and your main at the same time (like at shakuras, shattered.
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On November 29 2011 04:22 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:21 Lorch wrote:On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now. When I say prolevel I'm not talking about the opinion of players, I'm talking about pure numbers from tournaments. Idra still things Zerg can't win ZvP because all the units are trash. doesn't mean everyone is as dumb and biased as idra when it comes to speaking about game balance
Pros make complaints about balance all the damn time, most of the time they are contradicting each other and end up being wrong anyway. You think there are no pro Protoss players out there who would disagree with what you say? I'm sure there are plenty, there are probably even some Terran too.
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On November 29 2011 04:22 Endrew wrote:I'm a mid diamond Terran on EU and I'm also having terrible streak vs Pr0toss atm. I got nothing against their allins, this can be scouted and defended. What I'm losing most to recently is a camping Pr0toss, who defends harrassment properly(whats the big deal, they got warpins....) and moves out with 3-3 at 200 food. That army just won't die regardless of what Terran has, even if T hits his EMP's toss will just throw few FF's and run away...And usually if the game comes to 200 vs 200 even if T can crush Pr0tos's army, it will be back within few seconds. 20 3-3 chargelots insta warpin.....My worst nightmare
uhhhhhh......if the T hits his EMP's the toss wont have any FF -_____-
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On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance.
You are so clueless.. sounds like you have no idea what has happened in the matchup in past month. Go watch some recent pro level games before spreading such words.
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For the longest time I have thought TvP was horrible and it kept me out of masters. Try the sky terran thread and build a planetary at your natural. I hated using bio vs T3 protoss it made no sense what so ever. The sky terran build allows you to just chill at your base and easily harass the protoss to death. If it ever comes down to base trade you will definitely have the advantage being your nat is a planetary and that you can lift off buildings. You will have a surplus of minerals going straight air which allows you to do the "late game" terran and mass orbitals around midgame! , but instead of orbitals you can also use those minerals to spam planetaries all over the map. It's really solid and you can defend anything that you see so far in diamond to mid masters. GL and hope i see some more sky terrans out there ^^
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On November 29 2011 04:20 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:18 Lorch wrote:
And why the fuck should it ever matter whether or not a matchup is broken in some random wood league?
Protoss is kinda op in bronze ya know, mass void ray so tough to beat...
Prolevel shows TvP is fine, if you have issues open a thread in the strategy section asking for help and don't come here whinning about balance. You do realise the post right above yours is a pro saying how ridiculous chrono-ed double forge it right? Even Korean Terrans (Clide I think?) mentioned that T is having a hard time now.
I mean, it's pretty normal that T has at some point a tough time, given that it was always easy for them before that. Korean terrans barely practiced any TvP for quite a long time because they erased Protoss from the GSL with 1/1/1 and various one base all ins, doesn't really develop the matchup for them.
At low levels on the other hand, it seems to be heavily Protoss favored, weirdly enough, and I don't really know how Blizzard can fix it, except nerfing Protoss to oblivion again.
What I would say is:
_ Early game, Terran is stronger than Protoss, as it always has been. Unless Terran doesn't scout at all some all in, you just can't lose, while P can lose to random proxies, one base all ins and scv pull, bunker rushes and whatnot, even scouted.
_ Mid game, Protoss' (maybe unfair) advantage is clearly forge upgrades.
_ Late game, Protoss has the upper hand with warpgate I would guess
What I would say though, and what most terrans don't realise, is that at 200/200, drops become effective again because Protoss doesn't have warp ins anymore. Just drop everywhere, you will do damage.
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EPT
