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On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill.
=.=
Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand?
I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel.
I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before.
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On November 29 2011 04:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:20 Grndr101 wrote:On November 29 2011 04:16 Hider wrote:
There are a 2 primary reasons why Protoss is doing well late game vs terran.
1) Warp gates (terran has to win eveyr single battle vs toss since they can rebuild faster).
2) Terrans cant use the gas income the get when they have more than 6-7 active geysers. Toss can always make HT.
However I feel like ravens might be a solution to reason 2 and to some extent reason 1.
Using upgraded turrets can block the way for chargelots (increasing defenders advantage).
Pdd is decent against stalkers.
3) Seeker missile should be pretyt good vs a 2 food toss army (cus of splash).
Ravens would be decent if they didn't get feedbacked by HT, honestly all their spells have such a short range that feedbacking a raven is ridiculously easy. Thats true. However most of the time the toss player will keep their HT in the back (to avoid getting emped). I guess this might become a micro war of not getting your Ravens too close to the toss HT, and if the ht get too close, you can try and emp them. But i kinda fear that the toss might get the better end of that. Anyway if ravens are not really viable, i guess tvp lategame is definitely broken. Right now the terran has to win every battle late game, and if he loses (which he often will, cus of emp nerf) he loses the game. Toss can constantly tech switch and terran has to react perfectly all the time.
Wait, both PDD and turrets have a 180 timer on them. That is 3 in game minutes. Is there any reason for the raven to be traveling with the army. Why would't the PDD and turrets be placed in areas that the terran wanted to fall back too. So many times I chase terrans with my zealots and stalkers and a turret and PDD with be the idea place to retreat to and re-enforce. Also, turrets are no joke.
Protoss have started doing the same thing. To keep their HTs safe, they leave a few back to storm as if they need to fall back. The raven does not need to be part of the bio ball.
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I agree pvt is a boring matchup with really powerful spells that can turn the tide really fast which has resulted in another thread about pvt passivity. We can only hope for HotS at this moment in time.
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Everytime I open these TvP threads, I wonder why I can't beat terran if everyone is having so much trouble. I play at a high master level and I get absolutely destroyed by terran.
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On November 29 2011 04:28 HikariPrime wrote:
For the longest time I have thought TvP was horrible and it kept me out of masters. Try the sky terran thread and build a planetary at your natural. I hated using bio vs T3 protoss it made no sense what so ever. The sky terran build allows you to just chill at your base and easily harass the protoss to death. If it ever comes down to base trade you will definitely have the advantage being your nat is a planetary and that you can lift off buildings. You will have a surplus of minerals going straight air which allows you to do the "late game" terran and mass orbitals around midgame! , but instead of orbitals you can also use those minerals to spam planetaries all over the map. It's really solid and you can defend anything that you see so far in diamond to mid masters. GL and hope i see some more sky terrans out there ^^
as a P the first time i saw that i didnt think that P had anything that could deal with it, especially since raven bc lategame is ridiculously good and wrecks any composition P has to deal with it (yamato rapes carriers/void rays/motherships)
however there is a weak period for the T, if the P can allin right before the pf finishes the T has no units other than 2 maybe 3 banshees and a handful of marines....so its a base trade where the P can then warp in the needed 4-6 stalkers at home to deal with any banshees that werent at the Ts base, basically P can kill that build early...though that is the only hope that P has to deal with it imo
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I dont think there is anything wrong with this matchup at all scout properly and you wont get caught out, its pretty much the answer to all your worries.
scout.
I saw someone say that bunkers are strong, but not as cheap as force fields. No they are not as cheap as force fields on the straight up costs however a protoss with more sentries is a weaker protoss push.
scout.
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the problem is that warp in is a game breaking mechanic that should never have been in starcraft 2.
also toss has THE perfect gas dump in ht/archons. i lol when people thought the gas decrease for ghosts was a buff when it was actually a nerf. ravens could potentially be a gas dump that terrans haven't utilized yet, but it doesn't even come close to ht/archons.
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On November 29 2011 04:27 unit wrote:
uhhhhhh......if the T hits his EMP's the toss wont have any FF -_____-
GL hitting every single Sentry and HT(since they can throw defensive storms) or preventing Toss from abusing the terrain for his lolossi(chokes, highround, etc) and making you not want to engage.
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On November 29 2011 04:29 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill. =.= Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand? I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel. I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before.
I've seen countless nexus first being rolled by a reactive marine scv all in. I would say that as far as openings go, 1 rax gasless FE is ahead economically of 1 gate FE while also being safer.
Problem in TvP is not openings obviously, it's the midgame turtle for upgrades and lategame mass warpgates.
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As a lowly-diamond toss, I find myself envious of the Terran defender's advantage. Mass repair of bunkers early game and, late game, of PFs make me hesitant to attack Ts. Also, your SCVs are tough. Seeing as you have mules, don't be afraid to pull large amounts of SCVs for repair or to tank damage against toss attacks--especially against one-base all-ins or 4/6 gate timings off of 2 bases. If you have 3+ bunkers I find that I have to have the right unit comp, good FFs, and that I have to pull back and re-engage at just the right times to break your Terran defense.
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On November 29 2011 04:14 Flonomenalz wrote:
Protoss could say the exact same thing with late game Terran armies EMP'ing everything with 10 full energy cloaked ghosts.
I'd really wish that, for once people would drop this stuff about EMP...
EMP takes off (with the exception of Archons) 50% hp max and against Zealots it does very very little since they have more armour hp and are far more likely to have armour upgrades than shield, along with having innate armour.
So while a Protoss army can take EMPs and live if a T takes a full storm their army is basically dead. If you engage in one spot where you don't have the space to micro away from storms and P lands one (assuming everything else in game is equal) it's basically gg. Unless T facerolls a P army they can't convert that push in to severe economic damage as a use every gate chargelot warp in will stop the remnants of a T army in its tracks.
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Im a zerg player but i find this matchup so incredibly boring to watch because there's no defenders advantage especially for terran. Its just 2 big blobs kiting and A-moving. Do terran/toss players enjoy this matchup? I mean i enjoyed watching it in bw so it cant be just that im a zerg player.
I think if tanks are buffed it wouldn't change the balance except maybe the 111. Tanks 1 shot lings and blings anyway so it wont affect tvz too much and they are really weak vs late game toss.
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On November 29 2011 04:35 Endrew wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:27 unit wrote:
uhhhhhh......if the T hits his EMP's the toss wont have any FF -_____- GL hitting every single Sentry and HT(since they can throw defensive storms) or preventing Toss from abusing the terrain for his lolossi(chokes, highround, etc) and making you not want to engage.
no, i was just pointing out that he said he hit all of his emps...which was the bolded part of the quote that you removed when quoting my post
also if you have 8-10 ghosts it isnt that hard to have an emp spread that hits all the sentries....also...lolossi? colossus sucks vs terran due to how easy it is to get 12-16~ vikings and just rape them before they have any impact on the battle whatsoever (if the P blinks forward to try to snipe them then your army is right under it stimmed and melting their stalkers -_- ofc thats if you engage, if the P engages the positioning should favor the P due to him picking the place to fight)
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On November 29 2011 04:36 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:29 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill. =.= Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand? I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel. I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before. I've seen countless nexus first being rolled by a reactive marine scv all in. I would say that as far as openings go, 1 rax gasless FE is ahead economically of 1 gate FE while also being safer. Problem in TvP is not openings obviously, it's the midgame turtle for upgrades and lategame mass warpgates.
I share your views in this post. In fact, iirc, in the Nexus 1st guide it did mention that the most deadly response from T would be a marine SCV all-in. I just feel that it's lame that T has to either expand slower or go completely all-in like that.
It was also mostly a knee-jerk reaction to that guy complaining about the 1 rax FE. Throughout beta people kept complaining about 1 base cheese, then people complained about 1-1-1, so it just pisses me off when people complain about even a staple econ opener =.=
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On November 29 2011 04:29 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill. =.= Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand? I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel. I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before.
As a protoss, I never go nexus first unless I want to lose the game. I do not rely on my opponents being bad or not being willing to cut workers to kill me. At best I go one gate, core, nexus and that only if I see the terran expand. Nexus firstis just asking to be rolled over by good scouting and a solid all-in.
As a protoss, seige tanks are scary as hell. I don't care if some terran mech is horrible, I have a healthy respect for seige tanks. Some terrans think the immortal is amazing. To me, it is a dumb, slow, paperweigh that better win me the game because is the slowest unit in my army and its not making it home if I have to run.
It is easy to see how your units are flawed when you are the one using them.
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On November 29 2011 04:40 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 04:36 ZenithM wrote:On November 29 2011 04:29 S_SienZ wrote:On November 29 2011 04:24 Plansix wrote:
This is the product of the meta game shifting to pushing many of the terran builds that were simply to greedy. 1 rax fast expand base off only marines, bunkers that shifts to 4 rax with upgrades and medivacs. How long did terrans expect this build to last before protoss cracked it open? Do you see protoss expanding, relying on photon cannons and then complaining when fast drops destory them? How many terrans fly their factory around, using it for scouting? Do tanks and hellions not work because they are bad or because every terran using their factory as the most expensive scout in the game? Did you think your army of teir 1 and 1.5 units + support were going to last the entire game vs everything ground unit the protoss has?
Also, as a protoss, seige tanks scare the shit out of me. I know terrans feel they are crap, but they might have a place in the match up. I don't think terrans can use them as a back bone, but they do make a protoss think twice before pushing. Much like the immortal, they might not have a long term place in the army, but they might have a roll for a little while.
But having been on the other end of some really abusive terran builds, I can't help but think this is just your hard match up. I get SMASHED by zerg about 3 out of 5 games. But in every replay I can see where I messed up. I don't think zerg is broken, just hard at my level of skill. =.= Seriously? Of all the things in the Terran's arsenal, you're complaining about the 1 rax expand? I can accept Zerg taking a faster expo than every race simply because that's how their production works, but Protoss even has a freaking guide in the strategy section on how to go Nexus 1st and how to react to every possible scout intel. I love you you're talking as if Ts haven't tried mech vs P before. I've seen countless nexus first being rolled by a reactive marine scv all in. I would say that as far as openings go, 1 rax gasless FE is ahead economically of 1 gate FE while also being safer. Problem in TvP is not openings obviously, it's the midgame turtle for upgrades and lategame mass warpgates. I share your views in this post. In fact, iirc, in the Nexus 1st guide it did mention that the most deadly response from T would be a marine SCV all-in. I just feel that it's lame that T has to either expand slower or go completely all-in like that. It was also mostly a knee-jerk reaction to that guy complaining about the 1 rax FE. Throughout beta people kept complaining about 1 base cheese, then people complained about 1-1-1, so it just pisses me off when people complain about even a staple econ opener =.=
Builds like that are going to exist though. If a zerg goes for 3 quick expansion off of a pool and zero lings, you need to respond with some pretty amazing agression. Some builds are so greedy that it going all in is the best way to respond. It is a sign that the build is bad and should be punished.
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On November 29 2011 04:34 SoKHo wrote:
Everytime I open these TvP threads, I wonder why I can't beat terran if everyone is having so much trouble. I play at a high master level and I get absolutely destroyed by terran.
That's because they play at a such lower level (in this case EU diamond, which I would say is around platinum KR), their metagame and game decision making is not the same I think and therefore shouldn't really be too much effort put into, but that's just my thoughts.
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You seem to Imply that late game P composition is OP and how hard to stop every unit P has. But I can write same thread. (about how mmm is most cost/dps is ridiculous ESP with Emp)...it's just difficulties you have to deal with. I see this as cry thread...All that you wrote could be dealt with, only one thing you right about is tanks... If you look at winrates it's the Protoss who ought to cry, so the problem is Not with matchup it's with you
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On November 29 2011 04:39 unit wrote:
no, i was just pointing out that he said he hit all of his emps...which was the bolded part of the quote that you removed when quoting my post
also if you have 8-10 ghosts it isnt that hard to have an emp spread that hits all the sentries....also...lolossi? colossus sucks vs terran due to how easy it is to get 12-16~ vikings and just rape them before they have any impact on the battle whatsoever (if the P blinks forward to try to snipe them then your army is right under it stimmed and melting their stalkers -_- ofc thats if you engage, if the P engages the positioning should favor the P due to him picking the place to fight)
Usually your ghosts will die long before they can throw those emps, unless you're a korean pr0 with 300 APM. Also, pls show me a diamond toss who plays pure Lolossi as his only AoE at the time when T can have 12-16 Vikings....BTW. do you have any idea how many Vikings can T have when Toss goes for 2 base 2 lolossi push?
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I feel the exact opposite as OP. As a NA Diamnd Terran, I feel that Protoss has a much harder time in this matchup than Terran because Terran's early and midgame armies are so much stronger.
In the early game, Protoss can't touch a Terran that scouts well and knows how to counter the few pressure/all-in builds that are actually dangerous from Protoss.
In the Midgame, if both players are macroing properly and neither has don damage to the other, Terran has the opportunity to get a huge supply advantage while upgrading. Terrans can easily abuse this by dropping and taking bases. If Protoss turtles on 2 base, you just completely outexpand them and it's gg, even if you trade inefficiently in the late game because you're production is just sooo much better. If they take a 3rd, you drop in 1 base, force warp-ins, and then drop in the other bse, and there is literally nothing Protoss can do but pull probes and pray that their army waddles over there before the base is utterly destroyed.
Late game even, I feel the dynamic is pretty balanced, since both sides need to control their armies perfectly. If the sentries/HT's aren't spread perfectly, EMP will wipe them out, even post nerf. if Terran doesn't engage perfectly, Storms/collosus splash will slaughter MMM.
Honestly, I hope the matchup stays where it is. I feel that Protoss has a hard time in the early stages of the game, but as Protoss players get better and better, they will be able to deal.
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EPT
