Hey everybody, so this is my first post here and I want to share something with you right away. I bet everyone of you disdains pvp, because the easiest and thus most played strategy is the 4 Gate opening. Most of other openings simply lose versus that heavy push strategy that follows almost always. So what I am going to do in that thread is explain you a Baselayout which I figured and tested successfully. The intention of that Baselayout is to give you a huge advantage in terms of defense versus a 4-Gate push and the usually upcoming warpin of units over the forcefields. It allows you to execute other builds like 3 Gate Robo or 3 Gate blink or things like that (remark: I only tested it with 3 gate build, not sure if gate robo gate gate opening would work and if, only with adjustments.).
Analysis of the enemy!
By enemy I mean the 4-Gate strategy. The 4-Gate strategy, well executed, beats almost every other opening. I tested a lot of them and even if you successfully pull up a strategy that really works defending versus a 4-Gate, it is by far more complicated to execute and because of that, it is risky, because a little mistake often leads to a struggle for life.
So I asked myself, what makes 4-Gate so strong? The question seems simple, but it is a bit more behind that than just saying "they have a lot of units in a very early state of game". The real main problem is not only the high amount of units that appear right in front of your base early on, but the fact that Protosses best defense, the forcefield, becomes almost redundant, because Protosses are able to warpin units above every single forcefield you set, no matter where. Here some screenshots that show that a single forcefield cannot stop the enemy from warping in. And this is afaik on every map.
Thus you need two forcefields, one to prevent him from getting through and one to prevent him from gaining vision, that will protect you for 15 seconds from getting warped in. So a possibilty would be just mass sentries, but not only are the gas-costs too high to execute that counter, it is also obvious that sentries are'nt the best thing to have in masses in a pvp, since they neither help a lot versus blink stalker, nor do they versus colossi and their damage output is everything else but high.
Solution of the problem
So I was thinking about things that nullify the aformentioned problem. The solution is simple: Buildings. You cannot warpin into buildings! So I tested something, I've built all my buildings on the edge of my base, right there where Protosses usually warpin to. Like here:
The 4-Gate-strategy becomes weaker, because he cannot warpin effectively. Here some Screenshots that show his difficulties, keep in mind that his pylon range is not big enough to warp in much further than seen on the screenshots.
Use forcefields to create a better fighting position and to cut off units of his army. Your pylon and your gateway behave like a longer choke than usual, so you have more spots to throw down forcefields.
Use the warpin of zealots to block the narrow spot, making the enemy unable to pass by with a group of zealots.
Early cheeses like 2 Gateways off base can be held of easier, since u can block your ramp with 1 zealot (gives u some more time 'til u catch up with zealot count )
Disadvantages
If not doing my followup you might encounter abuses like ranged Colossi or voidrays killing all your buildings, because you will have trouble to defend against those.
Recommended Build
After several test games I decided that a blinkstalker follow up is the best, since you almost usually gain mapcontrole instantly and hence you do not need to fear any building destruction abuse.
Detailed Build
So finally I show you how I do it personally, remark: I did not figure out the best build yet, in the replays I will attach, you will notice slight distinguishments between my games.
9 Pylon Pylon finished: Chronoboost Nexus 12 Gateway 12 Chronoboost Nexus 14 Assimilator 15 Chronoboost Nexus 16 pylon Gateway finished: Core 18 Assimilator 18 Assimilator (steal his and build your 2nd at the same time) 19 Build Zealot Zealot 3/4 Done: Pylon Build Stalker, Boost it Stalker finished: Send 3 Guys into your 2nd gas Stalker finished: Build 2 Gateways Build Sentry, Boost it Boost core Build Sentry, Boost it Warpgate finished: Build twilight c.
How to play it
Since you have way more units than he does (Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, 2nd Sentry on the way), before his warpgate finishes, you can push out early on and try to scare him a bit and mb kill a proxypylon (very seldomly) or the probe and damage his units a bit, as soon as you think his warpgate upgrade finished you should pull back. Do not lose your zealot ! If you do, even if u cut his army, he can run through, because you have only a stalker to block against zealots for example, or they abuse some off-pylons that are far away. sometimes they try to get one unit through to gain vision and are able to warp in units then somewhere in the back of your base.)
Your warpgate upgrade is about 10 seconds late, but you have 4 units and 2 forcefields, cut of 2 units, pull your units back and kill them. Do not stay too much in the front, otherwise you negate your build advantage a bit. Do not warp in too many sentries, because they do not do much besides one forcefield, rather get a good amount of stalker and only some zealots. I recommend warping in maximum 1 sentry, 2 if u wasted a forcefield completely. Warp in zealots to keep your narrow spot blocked and warp in stalker to increase your damage output.
With good micro by you, he will not succeed and because you stole his gas he needs to kill it first (if he did not do it right away with his first units). No matter what, you have gas advantage and your techtree has already started. Build only stalker then and boost your blink upgrade and keep building probes, because as soon as your blink finishes you can hunt him and throw down your expansion. I personally follow up with a lot of gateways and many upgraded warpgate units. in replay 1 you see how I play a gateway-mirror, notice my choice of upgrades opposed to his.
Unfortunately I do not have a perfect replay that shows how my build defenses against a 4 Gate, because people usually try a transition immediately if they see my baselayout, but because i stole his gas I am already ahead by then. If someone still tries to 4 Gate me I will upload the replay for you guys. But here I have at least two, one shows my blink stalker followup and my basebuild, eventhough it was slightly different than my "Detailed Build" says (better do as I wrote it) and one where he first tried 4 Gate but did transition afterwards. Enjoy!
I am looking forward to feedback and further questions if some come up,
Regards, Farmer
Edit: There are some problems visualizing the images, so I just give you the links to those. Sorry for the inconvenience
Edit2: In terms of answering your questions and trying to fix your doubts I am trying to point some things out.
Let's do some FAQ to clearify some things :D
Q: Can't he just kill your buildings with 4 Gate? A: No, if he commits for 4 Gate he needs to get up my ramp. In order to kill a gateway he needs vision for a long time and he uses all damageoutput he has on my gateway, at that time I kill him units which is more worth than a gateway or a pylon which i can replace in time.
Q: Can't he just kill your buildings with straight voidray when he sees your baselayout? A: No, I spend money to steal his gas, so his 2nd gas will be delayed no matter what he does. when he still decides to go for a fast stargate and not for a 4 Gate push, I will see it early enough with my scouting probe (note: 4 Gate is recognizable very easily, if i do not see him going 4 Gate I keep on scouting). I will add a 4th gate instead of council and 4 gate him - he will lose with stargate.
Q: Can't he just kill your buildings with immortal & hallucination? A: No, in order to get hallucination he needs 100 gas for the technology and eary sentry (at least 2 for enough hallucinations) that means he goes for robo, 2 sentry and the hallucination upgrade on a late 2nd gas - thats barely possible and would take him very long. He needs at least 2 immortals and some stalkers to deal enough dmg and meanwhile I have my blink finished and a lot of stalker (remark: blink stalker can easily outmicro immortals in small amounts)
Q: Can't he just go 1 Base colossus? A: Depends, due to the gas steal it costs him a bit more time and I tested the timings, I will have my expansion up and 6 gates with blink upgrade. Usually I can buy enough time with blink abuse 'til my charge is done and then its no problem flanking him with charge-lots. (Remark: blink stalker almost always win a basetrade, so he will have to back off if you sneak into his base when he just left it)
Q: What exactly is the purpose of that build? A: It allows you to get away with a 3 gate blink stalker opening without the possibilty to lose vs a 4 gate push (usually 4 gate is pretty effective vs 3 gate fast blink build). Also you are allowed to steal the enemies gas early on, causing him trouble transitioning into other builds and slightly forcing him to 4 gate, if he does not want to face the aformentioned transition.
Q: Can you upload more replays so that we can see it in action? A: Sure I will try to get as many replays as possible, but most people do not 4 gate me when they see my opening, so it will mainly consist of mid-lategame games.
And then he researches hallucinate and snipes all your buildings from the low ground. Not to mention that your buildings don't actually block anything because he still has plenty of room to warp in.
I think an expo followup into colossi would be much better than a blink stalker build. After a failed 4 gate attempt or one where he chooses not to engage, he will most defiantly transition into a stalker colossus voidray army or something it that ballpark. Blink stalker might cause you to have a late colossus tech which could result in a timing push from him that will easily roll over you. 3 gate robo is just a better option than twilight council
On February 18 2011 02:17 Flyingpants wrote: And then he researches hallucinate and snipes all your buildings from the low ground. Not to mention that your buildings don't actually block anything because he still has plenty of room to warp in.
Actually he has not that "plenty of room" you are speaking of, he has only small spots where his zealots would be useful and usually you have good spots to place good forcefields. I wish I saved replays because I only lost once vs a 4 Gate push but won about 12.
Hallucination takes time and usually he does not have the gas to do early sentry and hallucination and even if, your blink will be done by then and his hallucination is worthless
I can vouch that partially walling off your ramp can help a lot in defending a 4 gate. I've seen KiWiKaKi and Katari do this several times. Just don't get too cocky, you still have to make an ample amount of 3 gate army and not tech too fast to hold if off, otherwise the 4 gater will be able to kill those pylon/gates that are on top of the ramp. You don't even need hallucination to do it, even if you just suicide a few warp in zealots on top that'll give you enough time to kill gate/pylon and then the 4 gate army will eventually overwhelm you.
Also although this may be defensively better early game, it's always going to be a liability from mid game on. I understand that your follow up tries to minimize the liability of putting your buildings on the edge, but still it's an important downside to be wary of. Stealing gas doesn't always force an all-in 4 gate, you can still respond by doing an eco 4 gate and expanding (e.x. Adelscott), or possibly even doing a 1 gate expand.
i like my immortal to hold my ramp and hope for a containt so my warp prims gets some free probe kills.
about your idea to wall off the ramp surrounding. You will have to start befor your opponent will be on his way to a 4 gate. And if he scouts this he will simply go for robo or stargate to get vision and snipe down your buildings for free abusing the fact that you can't go down the ramp. Which means you will need an army to fight without ramp advantage to prevent this. In other words you give up your ramp advantage with a sim city that is supposed to make it easier for you to hold this advantage.
Just my thought on this, i played toss at the time where early zealot pressure was standard so you walled yourself in in pvp, i soon started to abuse this standard wall in with an immortal + different air units build to snipe down the wallin for free.
PS: warpin in on a ramp defended by an immortal costs you the first unit you warp in since its always a one shot. Makes it more a 3 gate vs a 3 gate + robo heh thanks to the ramp
On February 18 2011 02:22 benothebeno wrote: I think an expo followup into colossi would be much better than a blink stalker build. After a failed 4 gate attempt or one where he chooses not to engage, he will most defiantly transition into a stalker colossus voidray army or something it that ballpark. Blink stalker might cause you to have a late colossus tech which could result in a timing push from him that will easily roll over you. 3 gate robo is just a better option than twilight council
Well, you can followup with what ever you want, but I am not sure on what level you play (im Masterleague 3.6k Points) and I win with 2 Base gateway units vs 1 Base colossi. And to my mind it is a lot safer to go blink stalker instead of colossi tech, because you have a lot of gateways, can warp in more units and you are never in the situation where he could have more than you, coz you are stuck on teching
To the other guys: Maybe I should mention that this build is rather recommended to higher level players, because I bet it is easy to abuse my strategy on the low-mid skill level.
Usually you cannot go Robo and Stargate at the same time and still have 3 gates and everything on 1 base and late 2nd gas. Even if you do, I will have about 10 stalker and my expo almost running until then and blink already finished, without any heavy immortal army or blink stalker yourself you will be outmicroed immediately.
Killing my Gates in the early state of game (when hes 4 Gating me for example) is not possible. You should remember that I still have almost as many units as he does and he cannot affort suiciding 4 zealots to maybe kill my gate, if he does I just replace my Gate and due to the unit suicide he cannot push any further
One thing about your build - the assimilator steal. If I recall correctly, 1 gate FE into mass gateway counters assimilator steal pretty handily. And as Anihc said, you still have to build a lot of 3 gate army, so your tech can't be rushed - so it seems unlikely you'd be able to punish the FE.
In order for this to work you would need to commit to the layout from the very beginning, and if your opponent goes 3 gate robo or researches hallucinate he'll be able to snipe all of your buildings from underneath while you're trapped in your base. If the end goal is to get blink stalkers or an expo as you suggest, you might as well just play a defensive 4 gate to begin with and throw down the twilight/expo after you hold the 4 gate off.
On February 18 2011 02:17 Flyingpants wrote: And then he researches hallucinate and snipes all your buildings from the low ground. Not to mention that your buildings don't actually block anything because he still has plenty of room to warp in.
On February 18 2011 02:33 Farmerz wrote: Killing my Gates in the early state of game (when hes 4 Gating me for example) is not possible. You should remember that I still have almost as many units as he does and he cannot affort suiciding 4 zealots to maybe kill my gate, if he does I just replace my Gate and due to the unit suicide he cannot push any further
It is certainly not impossible. You do not have "almost as many units as he does," you've spent more money on probes, 2 additional gases, a council and possibly even blink, and only have 3 gates. He can afford to throw away zealots because he's reinforcing much faster than you and cutting off your ability to reinforce (killing pylons may supply block you, killing gateway is a huge blow).
I'm not theorycrafting either, I'll post replays when I get home.
But again, I'm not saying your setup/build doesn't work because it can help a lot. I'm just saying that you need to remember you're still playing against a 4 gate, which means you cannot be greedy and skimp on gateway units to get out faster tech or more probes.
Ok here again something you guys might miss. Of course you could go 4 Gate into blink stalker, but your blink is delayed heavily and you usually have trouble if you steal his gas, coz it still is a 4 gate vs 4 gate but you have 150 minerals less. So by going 3 gate council you have tech faster and you can afford taking both gasses. In ordner to still survive a 4 gate push you need some advantage and thats what i tried to present here.
arguments like "he will snipe off your units from the very beginning" are simply not well thought. with that build you can still decide to 4 gate yourself, it will be later as usual but still a 4 gate push.
and yes i've more probes (thus more income and able to spend more) and i threw down 150 minerals into assimilators, and a council. BUT sentries dont cost much minerals, but are fairly effective at this build. he has to build 1 gate more than i do, so that evens my council. he has to build AT LEAST 2 pylons near my base, so another 200 minerals that even my gas steal and a probe, overall the costs are pretty even, but i have more income than he does.
my build is simply a way to get away with a fast tech to blinkstalker and blinkstalker into expo are by far the most mapcontrolling strategy i know. he wont be able to try to kill a gateway or smth if you are near him just waiting to snipe units and blink back. i know it might be hard for some of you to execute, but at least on masterleague thats really not the problem. so most of the so called "problems" with my build are based on not tested things or just pure theory thoughts :o
i wouldnt present this here and spend hours to do it as properly as possible if i didnt test it for a long time and thought about it a lot and the disadvantages i wrote down are those who are really hard to handle and actually caused some trouble sometimes, but with blink, as i mentioned before, you easily go into mid - late game and thus its not a big deal anymore if your buildings are kinda exposed, because if in a pvp he has such an advantage to kill your buildings, you already lost anyways.
Isn't a pretty big flaw with this that you commit to the wall-off before he commits to the 4 Gate? What if upon scouting this your opponent just decides to not bother 4 Gating and instead does something designed to take advantage of the building placement. I imagine that Void Rays would be devastatingly effective against this.
@ rolfe yeah that was me and wtf didnt know it got into public oO
@ Exarl25: as i mentioned most ppl decide not to go for a 4 gate if they see that. when i stole his gas he needs to kill it first and it takes him about 1.5 minutes to do so and then he has to build his own etc. so everything else but 4 gate is heavily delayed anyways. when he throws down his stargate i will be researching blink already and with blink rays are no problem. and lets imagine i dont steal his gas and he goes for a fast stargate, he would totally lose when i decide to 4 gate him instead of go blink and EVEN when i dont, i can just leave my base and attack him, coz voidrays in small numbers are bad, they are very expensive and easy to fokus coz they are so slow compared to stalker :D so even in the most absurd process of a game that wouldnt be a problem
rly the only thing that is solid and causes trouble is 1 base colossi push with fast range upgrade and then just sieging my buildings with ranged colossi, but thats still to handle if you go mass blink stalker and charge lots right away on 2 bases, its pretty micro intense, but blink has simply more potential than any colossi build (if it doesnt come to 6-7 colossi at least :D )
I'll definitely be trying this out. With the new 3 Stalker build and now this I'm starting to get hopeful that PvP will soon evolve beyond the current 4 Gate fest.
EPT
