EPT[G] Baselayout to counter 4 Gate - Page 2
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Ghin
United States2391 Posts
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benothebeno
United States24 Posts
On February 18 2011 02:33 Farmerz wrote: Well, you can followup with what ever you want, but I am not sure on what level you play (im Masterleague 3.6k Points) and I win with 2 Base gateway units vs 1 Base colossi. And to my mind it is a lot safer to go blink stalker instead of colossi tech, because you have a lot of gateways, can warp in more units and you are never in the situation where he could have more than you, coz you are stuck on teching  I don't really understand what you are trying to say. You should be on 2 base colossi... I think 3 gate robo is much safer to expand off of than blink stalker opening. If the protoss chooses to turtle and mass up colossi then you can have fun attacking with your warpgate army into a colossi immortal warpgate army :V If you choose to attack before he has a robotics bay im pretty sure immortals can stop any mass stalker push. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
The fear of units warping in is misplaced, because a FF at the base of your ramp denies vision for the opponent. You can then take out their cliff-side pylon in the duration of the force field, and it makes it harder for them. But if you put buildings on the sides of your base, not only are you risking them being sniped, but you're wasting time and making an unnecessary investment and risk when you can just FF the base of your ramp and not have any of these problems. | ||
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Slivered Skin
Canada347 Posts
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Farmerz
39 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:08 benothebeno wrote: I don't really understand what you are trying to say. You should be on 2 base colossi... I think 3 gate robo is much safer to expand off of than blink stalker opening. If the protoss chooses to turtle and mass up colossi then you can have fun attacking with your warpgate army into a colossi immortal warpgate army :V If you choose to attack before he has a robotics bay im pretty sure immortals can stop any mass stalker push. haha now IM the one that doesnt really get what you're saying :D the thing is the following: if i go robotics instead of council im still facing a 1 base vs 1 base colossi match. colossi do not give you any big map control, so if he comes up and attacks your buildings at the edge of your base, you will be in trouble because you need to come down your ramp before a fight can be engaged. so he will be able to catch you in a very bad spot. only with blink stalker you can expand pretty safely, because blink stalker means you go a lot of stalker in the early game, so you have a bigger army than your enemy and because of blink you have total map control. he cant really expand, because your can totally abuse him with blink, even if he has 2-3 immortals (which would delay colossi heavily) you can do a lot of gimmicks to gain advantage. so if he stays on 1 base, he will have to do an allin push with 2-3 colossi. if he has only 1 colossi you can simply jump in, kill it and run away. will cost you about 4-5 stalker but doesnt matter, coz your expansion already kicked in and you can warp in mass units instantly. at the time when he reaches 2-3 colossi with range upgrade you will be already about 20 supply ahead with charge and blink and then its just a matter of positioning (flanking his ball with zealots is the key to your win ) | ||
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Hrwa
Croatia147 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:20 Slivered Skin wrote: This is completely unrelated, but why am I seeing all of your posts (you specifically, Anihc) with a light-blue backdrop? It's kind of freaking me out, lol. It's almost as if you were a shiny pokemon or something. Is anyone else getting this, or is it just me? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193846 | ||
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Farmerz
39 Posts
On February 18 2011 04:14 tree.hugger wrote: I really dislike walling off my ramp in PvP for several reasons. The first is that it really reduces your ability to fight units coming up your ramp. Your opponent can spread his forces beneath your ramp, while you have your units compressed into a smaller space. It makes it really difficult to engage. The second reason is that letting units into your base is gg if you've got your buildings at the ramp. Your opponent can just march in and get to your buildings immediately. The fear of units warping in is misplaced, because a FF at the base of your ramp denies vision for the opponent. You can then take out their cliff-side pylon in the duration of the force field, and it makes it harder for them. But if you put buildings on the sides of your base, not only are you risking them being sniped, but you're wasting time and making an unnecessary investment and risk when you can just FF the base of your ramp and not have any of these problems. please read thouroughly befor you post becoz most of the things you just said are the exact same others arleady mentioned and i already responded to that. its wrong that forcefields deny vision, did you even watch the screenshots or read any of my text? the buildings cant be sniped of, didnt you read the FAQ ? do you really think sentries are the safe way to defend a 4 gate? no offense but .. i guess you are about platin level and i really mean that not as an offense, its just wrong what you say :/ | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
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Farmerz
39 Posts
the thing is, executing a 4 gate goes like this: you push forward with a stalker and a zealot, build a pylon near his base and a pylon right next to his ramp. at that time the enemy up the ramp doesnt have enough units to kill the pylon, because if he attacks it, you go up with your stalker and your zealot and attack him - so he has to stop attacking the pylon. the pylons @ 4 gate are not cheesy proxy pylons, as you might imagine them , but they are supportive pylons. you cant really get rid of them and the aggressor uses them to reinforce. so its not like you can just scout them and you defended a 4 gate. | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
That said, I usually don't wall off because I feel it takes away a lot of the defenders advantage. You can't get as nice of positioning at the top of the ramp. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
I did experiment with Building Placement on XelNaga myself a while ago and found a solution that may be a bit more elegant than yours. Top 1/2 Top 2/2 Bottom 1/2 Bottom 2/2 About my Placement: Consider the Cannons as your Pylons and the actuall Pylons as your opponent's. Placement of opponents Pylons is the nearest he can do without getting shot by atleast 2 Stalkers ( = dead pylon before finish) while still maintaining the ability to warp zealots above the "money FF" at the ramp and providing warpin area above your ramp. If he tries to warp in multiple pylons at once and cancel the dying ones my cannon (pylon) placement allows to wall of the critical areas with 1 additional gateway for each pylon (a worthwile investment considering he spends at least 100 Minerals for another pylon and 25 for canceling at least once). The Space between the 3x3 Buildings is just large enough to warp in Zealots not Stalkers so he cant mess with your sentries. In addition Zealots in these Gaps are not able to shred down juicy pylons and all gates are powered by 2 Pylons (your most bottom gate seems to be powered by just one). Zealots represent the farest he can get in with warpins and movement. You might see pylonpower areas that appear to enable to warp behind the wall, but its actually not even large enough to squeeze in just a single zealot. | ||
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Farmerz
39 Posts
the reason why i find your style a bit weaker is that u have to rely on watching where he builds his pylons in order to counter it, but you seem not to have a solid build, you need at least 3 gates to counter a 4 gate anyways, with 2 its not even possible and with less ofc not either. you usually dont have the minerals to just throw down 1-2 gateways to counter his pylons, keep in mind that you are supposed to warp in whenever your gateway cooldown vanished. still it is true that pylons are very breakable and easy to kill, but when he really decides to kill a pylon, he spends so much shooting power on that pylon and kills 100 minerals in the end, while im killing about 2-3 units which are worth way more money. i can just replace the pylon and my wall is closed again. usually i dont have any super important pylon which powers other buildings alone | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:09 Farmerz wrote: well the reason why ive shown you 4 pylons but noted only 3 is because at the time my "bo", which i listed, ends, you have to build another pylon and the screenshot basically wanted to show you what i mean. you are not supposed to build it exactly like i did, but in the manner. the reason why i find your style a bit weaker is that u have to rely on watching where he builds his pylons in order to counter it, but you seem not to have a solid build, you need at least 3 gates to counter a 4 gate anyways, with 2 its not even possible and with less ofc not either. you usually dont have the minerals to just throw down 1-2 gateways to counter his pylons, keep in mind that you are supposed to warp in whenever your gateway cooldown vanished. still it is true that pylons are very breakable and easy to kill, but when he really decides to kill a pylon, he spends so much shooting power on that pylon and kills 100 minerals in the end, while im killing about 2-3 units which are worth way more money. i can just replace the pylon and my wall is closed again. usually i dont have any super important pylon which powers other buildings alone Wait what? I think you totally missunderstood me. You need to open 2 Pictures per Base (thats why they are labled the way they are). Screen is simply not large enough to show the whole layout at once. Each pair shows the basic Layout (containing 3 Pylons, a Core and of corse 3 Gates... i am in fact not THAT stupid :> ). You build it this way everytime independent about where he places his pylons. I mentioned them to point out that he cant build them anywhere more near without getting shot by at least 2 stalkers. The actuall Pylons on the picture show the (imho) strongest position of your opponents pylon and in relation his inability to make use of them due to my layout. | ||
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Farmerz
39 Posts
and besides, my build has the advantage that no pylon powers a building alone. if you look at your base, if i catch almost any pylon i want, i would unpower a building, at my base you can kill any pylon you want, no building will be unpowered | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:25 Farmerz wrote: Well first of all its not the strongest pylon position he can have ^^ usually he has the pylon right at your ramp, you cant rly kill it because he will be able to shoot at you, remember: hes permanentely trying to get up the ramp, there is simply no time to chill there with some stalker and kill his pylon :D and besides, my build has the advantage that no pylon powers a building alone. if you look at your base, if i catch almost any pylon i want, i would unpower a building, at my base you can kill any pylon you want, no building will be unpowered I think we talk at cross-purposes. No he cant shot your Stalkers ontop of your Ramp. He is blocked out by forcefields. Thats why you get Sentries, thats why he is building his pylon so near to port above your FF and inside your base afterwards, thats why we discuss the whole building placement, isnt it? And as I mentioned all Buildings in my Layout are powered by 2 Pylons (cannons). Edit: Made another screen to visualize my point. Consider the below-ramp-pylon still warping in and your opponent with 1 Zealot, 6 Stalkers and ready to warp in 4 zealots (the typical 1 Gas 4 Gate All-in). 4 rela | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:35 Wolf wrote: I don't think it's worth the risk to build a gateway close to the ramp like that. Instead, to block zealots warping up your ramp, use your initial stalker to kill the probe. If its just that easy, 4Gate would not have been that dominant during the last half year. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:40 Xanatoss wrote: If its just that easy nobody would give a thing about 4 Gate, would they? I'm not saying it's easy. It definitely isn't. It's the best way, though. PvP is unforgiving. | ||
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zyzski
United States698 Posts
build 2nd pylon + gateway at the backdoor on delta quadrant so you can block the entire ramp off with a zealot. used to be perfect on jungle basin as well. | ||
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Farmerz
39 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:35 Xanatoss wrote: I think we talk at cross-purposes. No he cant shot your Stalkers ontop of your Ramp. He is blocked out by forcefields. Thats why you get Sentries, thats why he is building his pylon so near to port above your FF and inside your base afterwards, thats why we discuss the whole building placement, isnt it? And as I mentioned all Buildings in my Layout are powered by 2 Pylons (cannons). Edit: Made another screen to visualize my point. Consider the below-ramp-pylon still warping in and your opponent with 1 Zealot, 6 Stalkers and ready to warp in 4 zealots (the typical 1 Gas 4 Gate All-in). 4 rela i totally understood you. the thing is, imagine he snipes of 1 pylon, as many ppl said here. losing a pylon is actually possible in a normal game, but its only effective if that unpowers a building. at your first pictures losing a pylon would mean losing power for a gateway, and thats huge. and if its about shooting from the top ramp down then you dont even need the buildings, but the thing is that forcefields cant be used to negate vision, because he can warpin zealots over the forcefield and then he has vision. if you dont build your buildings there, you are force to fight his complete army (either you back off and he will eventually get up your ramp with mass stalkers or you stay near your choke and he will be able to shoot with some stalker up the ramp. if you look at your screenshot, there where your 2 stalkers shoot down, he can warp in zealots to, so whats the point of building your buildings at the edge if you create big holes like that in your defense? :O | ||
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