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[G] 2 gateway 1 stargate PvP Phoenix build

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
February 14 2011 21:52 GMT
#1
Introduction

Hello all. I was inspired by iEchoic's revolution in TvT and decided to lay out a build I have been using in PvP ever since the build time on Phoenixes was decreased. After years of pleasure derived from team liquid, this will be my first real contribution.

PvP is an incredibly boring matchup, the vast majority of games end up as a 4gate vs 4gate where a single ill-positioned stalker can cost you the game. Beyond this, the game transitions into a rush to a critical mass of colossi, where colossus numbers and positioning reign supreme. Both of these 'standard' PvP games are incredibly boring to watch and play.

Because of my hate for the colossus, and my love of the phoenix I have always been determined to make use of the phoenix in every matchup. The results of my efforts in pvp is a 2 gateway 1 stargate build that aims to hold off a 4gate rush and obtain an economic victory, or punish a player attempting to rush to a colossus.



Disclaimer

+ Show Spoiler +
I am a mid-level Master's league player, and my ambition has been to break into the top 200, and while I've come close, I've never managed it. As such I am not an amazing player, I feel I have a very good understanding of the game, but lack the coordination to pull it off. Because of this I have not been able to test this build at the absolute highest levels of gameplay, but I suspect the strategy will be more viable as the skill of the player increases, as it requires a high degree of multitasking

Furthermore, this build relies on forcefields to block off any sight of your base's high ground, and while the build order provides the sentries, this is still a difficult task. As such, I still lose approximately 40% of my PvP games outright due to a single misplaced forcefield or slow reaction. It is also near impossible to pull off on Scrap Station due to the wide ramp size, and maps with back entraces (Jungle Basin, Delta Quadrant) make it slightly more complex (walling off the back entrance with buildings is recommended)




General Goals

Split according to the most common PvP scenarios: 4 gate pushes, and robo-colossi builds.
The build has the following aims:

Against 4 gate
+ Show Spoiler +

- Hold off any 4gate push without cutting probes.

-Secure an economic advantage against 4 gate builds through constant probe production and phoenix harass

- Force the opponents army to cluster up by picking off lone units with phoenixes, and pin him in his own base by harassing the probe line whilst securing further economic advantages.


Against 2gate robo / 3gate robo and other colossus builds

+ Show Spoiler +

-Phoenix harass keeps the opponents army in his base early and allows easy scouting of colossus timing

-Phoenixes are faster to tech to, allowing a push before a colossus is built

-Robo builds often depend on immortals early to deflect aggression which are exceedingly vulnerable to phoenixes, similarly sentries are almost entirely nullified by phoenixes as they can be picked off before a battle starts with relative ease.

-Succesful colossus production still allows for easy void ray production. Since colossi reduce the number of stalkers in an army due to gas requirements, it is a very common situation to have enough phoenixes out to lift up every single enemy stalker, allowing voidrays to quickly decimate the colossi (Note colossi are unable to escape from void rays, as both move at the same speed, 2.25, and can path over cliffs.)




The Build Order

The build is timed out to provide 4 sentries fast enough to block off any 4gate rush (see replay 1) before quickly getting out several phoenixes. It oppens assuming a 4 gate rush, and can be modified for faster phoenixes upon succesful scouting of another strategy.

+ Show Spoiler +

9 pylon
10 Chronoboost 2 x probes
13 Gateway
14 Assimilator*(see note)
15 chronoboost 2 x probes
16 pylon
Keep up constant probe production without further chrono boosts from this point
@100%gateway, Cybernetics Core
@75 minerals immediate second gas (~18 supply)
@100 minerals Zealot + chronoboost it out**(see note)
@100% cyber core, Warp gate research + chronoboost it out
@100% Zealot, Sentry + chronoboost it out

-If scouting revealed a 4 gate strategy (Indicators: single gas after ~20 probes, very high energy count on the nexus, 10 gateway [compare his gateway timing to yours to determine this])

Chronoboost out a second sentry and get a second gateway as soon as possible. Order 2 more sentries from your 2 gateways and chronoboost where possible, your 4th sentry should finish shortly after warp gate research. Get a stargate as soon as you have 150 gas after ordering your 4th sentry.

-If scouting revealed a build other than 4 gate

Sentries can be cut and the second gateway delayed for a faster stargate.

*Note: Delay your second nexus Chronoboost, this is done to allow a slightly earlier assimilator as the build is gas heavy.

**Note: This build is timed out such that if it is done perfectly your zealot finishes 3-4 seconds after your cybernetics core, and literally AS you get 100 gas for your sentry. Chronoboosting this zealot allows the earlier sentry, whilst still providing a zealot.
Since you will not get out a stalker, and since sentries are slower than workers, you should try to micro the zealot to pick off the enemy's scout. This is unlikely but can happen.




Why it works

Holding 4gate

+ Show Spoiler +

-Even against fast warp gate rushes, such as a 10gate 1 gas perma-chronoboosted research 4gate build, you have 2 (or at least very nearly) sentries out when the push occurs, A chronoboosted sentry takes approximately 30 seconds to build, and you have 2 forcefields available to use, each lasting 30 seconds, hence the timings are tight, but with practice it can be accomplished.

-4 sentries are enough to permanently forcefield a ramp, FF costs 50 energy and lasts 15 seconds, hence 3 sentries are enough to FF a ramp for a very long time if the sentries start with lots of energy (or if you can buy 5 seconds inbetween forcefields). 4 sentries allows for completely permanent FFs.

-Correct forcefield placement (at the very bottom of the ramp) denies sight ontop of a ramp, preventing units from being warped in on your high ground at all.

-Any tech to flying units (such as robo for observers / hallucination) to allow sight up the ramp delays the push significantly, and as only 4 units can be warped in at a time in your base, and your ramp will still be perma forcefielded, your army will be enough to crush the 4 units warped in quickly.

-Teching to blink stalkers is an extreme delay, and correct forcefield placement will still deny the majority of blink stalker plays.


The Phoenix
+ Show Spoiler +

-Phoenixes are light units, and as such stalkers do not get a damage bonus against them. A phoenix costs 25 minerals and 50 gas more than a stalker, and has 120hp and 60 shields. Stalkers have 80 hp and 80 shields

Maths
+ Show Spoiler +
Accounting for the fact that gas is slightly more valuable, you can roughly equate 3 stalkers to 2 phoenixes in terms of cost. (250 total cost for phoenix, 175 for a stalker. 250/175 = 1.43, and 3*175 = 525, 2*250 = 500, ie the extra 25 total resource cost accounts for the fact that gas is more valuable)

Stalkers deal 10 damage to a phoenix, requiring 18 shots to kill one.
Stalkers deal 14 damage to other stalkers, requiring 12 shots to kill one.
Accounting for the 3:2 ratio, stalkers need 36 shots to kill 3 stalkers, and 36 shots to kill 2 phoenixes.


Hence phoenixes are just as cost effective as stalkers in terms of soaking up damage from enemy stalkers and assuming sentry dps to be negligible this is the only unit your enemy posses that can destroy phoenixes

- By being selective about which targets your phoenixes attack, ie light units, you can make use of the phoenixes (frankly insane) 16 dps (18 damage in a 1.11 second cooldown) Stalkers by comparison deal 9.8 dps to armoured targets, and cannot be as selective in their targetting (dropping to 6.8 dps against light targets). In the 3:2 ratio this still leaves phoenixes at 16 dps vs 14.7 of stalkers. (Note that phoenixes 'true' dps will be lower, due to the fact that at least one phoenix cannot be firing at the same time)


-Phoenixes become more effective in larger numbers, as the disadvantages brought about by at least one phoenix being unable to fire while lifting becomes negligible. Furthermore space becomes an issue for large groups of ground units, with the possibility of stalkers being unable to fire, this does not pose a problem to phoenixes.

-Phoenixes give a great deal of map control, and provide essentially unlimited scouting of the enemies base due to their unmatched speed. Phoenix harassing is extremly effective, even more so than mutalisk harassing due to the nature of shield regen. Where a mutalisk requires a long time (or a transfuse) to heal, essentially meaning that every point of damage taken by a mutalisk is a cost, phoenix shields regen to full extremely quickly. Hence as long as care is taken to not lose the shields on a phoenix, harassing is almost costless, as stray stalker shots (even from blink stalkers) are often not enough (even with focus firing) to deal sever HP damage to a phoenix.

-Phoenixes exploit a weakness in protoss ground armies It is a nice symmetry that the units phoenixes kill quickly, zealots and sentries, are much slower than the only units that can significantly damage the phoenix, stalkers. As any army moves out stalkers will naturally tend to pull ahead of the rest of the army. With the scouting power phoenixes give, it is a fairly simple task to swing around behind the stalkers and kill of sentries and zealots. This forces the enemy into the micro intensive task of keeping his entire army in a tight cluster, and allows for VERY easy picking off of any stray units.

-Constant forcefielding of the ramp + harassing of the enemy mineral line keeps the enemy's army in his own base.

-Robo builds generally depend on immortals for defense before a colossus can be produced. Since phoenixes are a faster tech, and provide complete scouting of the enemy base, a push shortly after completion of the enemy robo bay, combined with phoenixes lifting up all enemy immortals and low sentry count (due to high gas requirements of the colossus) generally produce an easy victory.

-Phoenixes bypass all forcefield stalls by harassing the mineral line, requiring stalkers to be pulled back, sentries at the ramp can then be picked off by the much faster phoenixes. Essentially, if the enemy pulls his entire army back to the mineral line, you can bust up the ramp, if he separates stalkers from sentries to cover both the mineral line and the ramp, his sentries die, and if he's placed cannons in his mineral line to prevent both he has wasted a great deal of money in stopping your harass, and so cannot attack you, allowing you to expand and win that way.




The Magic Number 5
+ Show Spoiler +

-Phoenixes usefullness increases dramatically once 5 are on the field. It requires 4 Phoenix shots to kill a sentry, and 8 to kill a zealot. Hence a group of 5 phoenixes can 1shot a sentry (provided no guardian shield is up) and 2 shot a zealot.

-In general I only stop phoenix production after 10 phoenixes, allowing 2 groups of 5 on two separate hotkeys to patrol the map independantly. This requires a huge amount of multitasking, and since I'm not a capable enough player to pull it off without slipping up (though I would love to see it in the hands of a proffesional) I have found that even at my level it is worth splitting them into two groups, Scouting the map extremely effectively to pick of anything that can be picked off.
This coincides nicely with the time you need to start void ray production to deal with mass colossus transitions.




Late Game enemy colossus balls

+ Show Spoiler +

-Dealing with mass colossus balls relies on void rays, but if you fail to kill the enemy before his colossus get out, immediately start void ray production. Instead of lifting single sentries and zealots in a straight up fight, instead lift as many stalkers as you can, using every last phoenix. Get your voidrays to focus down the colossi before cleaning up the stalkers, Phoenix voidray compositions are EXTREMELY effective against colossus balls

-The immobility of colossus balls can be exploited in the same way Terran do: focusing on highly mobile Guerilla tactics.




Other (Enemy) Transitions
+ Show Spoiler +

-The only other transitions the enemy can make is are to:
Dark Templar: Scouting from phoenixes provides plenty of time to get a robo + observer out

High Templar: extremely ineffective as storm is wasted on phoenixes, and feedback can be negated by spam lifting units to keep energy low. (I have never been able to test this scenario as it has never happened to me, esentially because it is such a poor choice)

Stargate: This is now playing your game, and essentially just becomes a resource war (Again I have never been able to test this scenario)

-Blink Stalkers (see note below)

-Mass Gateway Units with upgrades
This is the trickiest response to deal with, if your enemy ignores the colossi all together. At some point you will have to expand, so forcefielding the ramp can not be counted on forever. Furthermore your ground army is substantially weaker. The only way of dealing with this approach is to harass well enough for an economic lead, picking of zealots and stalkers where possible. Then, when a fight occurs, immediately use phoenixes to take out enemy sentries. Without Guardian Shield and Force Field your army can win through good forcefield placement of your own.

Furthermore, zealots are easy pickings for your phoenixes, allowing your own stalkers to target enemy stalkers. Furthermore, while phoenixes prevent large stalker counts, you do still end up with an approximately 3:1 split of zealots to stalkers.

While ordinarily your zealot-heavy army could kited by enemy stalkers, note that phoenixes prevent this to some degree. By lifting off 1-2 stalkers and marching your zealots forward, enemy stalkers must either stand their ground and tank damage from the zealots (your sentry advantage helps with this) or retreat and give up the stalkers that are lifted.

As such, when played correctly phoenixes are an amazing addition to your ground army, and can dismantle much larger ground armies.




Notes on Blink Stalkers

+ Show Spoiler +

*Note* I have not had many encounters with blink stalkers on the ladder, but on the 2-3 occasions that I did I was surprised at how well phoenixes dealt with them, I was expecting blink stalkers to dominate phoenixes.

However:
-Stalkers are much slower than phoenixes, even with blink, and deal very little damage to phoenixes. This combined with quick shield regen means that running away from blink stalkers usually results in very little damage taken.

-Phoenixes actually serve to counteract some of the mobility of blink stalkers. As above, by lifting 1-2 stalkers, and marching zealots forward, stalkers can be individually picked off by your own phoenixes / stalkers.

Alas:
-A large army of pure blink stalkers becomes almost impossible to deal with, void rays are a bad transition because of how well blink stalkers kill them off.

-Blink stalkers overcome the disadvantages of ground units in large numbers, making the stalkers more effective in a large ball than phoenixes, they also bypass most forcefield plays.

Way out:
-The only solution to this I have found is to tech to blink stalkers of your own, cut phoenix production and use the phoenixes you have to harass. Try to deal enough damage so that you can catch up in the blink stalker game.

-As a generally rule, try to kill off an enemy protoss before he can amass a huge blink stalker ball.




Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
*Note* while I have been playing this build for a while, I only had the idea to create a guide after iEchoic's TvT build was published. After looking through the temporary replay history, I could only find one decent example. As such I will link two replays now, and as my laddering produces more games I'll edit them in later.

Replay 1: Custom game against a computer only, this is simply to demonstrate the opening and how the timings work out so neatly.

vs Computer, only for demonstration of the opening timings.

Replay 2: Example of holding 4gate aggression. Note that I make several mistakes (build order mistakes, macro slips horribly during the initial 4gate push, phoenix control was terrible) And still pull out a win. This is simply because 4gate transitions so horribly. Upon scouting robo bay I even begin to get voidrays, but he skips out on colossus all together, when it comes to the final battle my micro was again terrible, but none of it matters due to the large lead

2gate 1stargate holding 4gate



Final Note

Again I'm not at the highest level of game play, but my intuition tells me that the build will be stronger the better the player is. I would very much appreciate it if a master level protoss player would like to help me iron out the build more, as I have only used it with laddering so far.
<3 Nony
Xism
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway126 Posts
February 14 2011 22:00 GMT
#2
Interesting. Could be viable with the two very early sentries to Force Field the ramp. I also love Phoenix play, so I'm definately going to try this out. I am not able to watch replays atm, but I will do that aswell.

Great post, yet again hoping for a revolution in PvP that might end the 4gating
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-14 22:11:45
February 14 2011 22:06 GMT
#3
the reason why this doesn't work is that you can warp onto the ramp with a pylon and with the warpin get vision for more warpins into the base.
which makes you need 2 forcefields to block the ramp, which you shouldn't be able to sustain with 2 gates Stargate.

but a stargatebuild transition of a defensive economic 3/4 warpgate seems alot more viable imho.
defend the potential 4 gate, get phoenix asap scout his transition.
if he one bases you are in a great position with phoenix, against any roboplay.

if he doesn't robo get, Dts
you should be able to expand, a colossus push can be defend with phoenix!
on ground you should be able to hold your self with 3 gates in unit production.
since supporting a 4 gate without fighting is i think impossible with 20 probes.
Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
February 14 2011 22:09 GMT
#4
I'll save all of my pvp games over the next few weeks and upload some better replays.

Unfortunately I had way more success when I used to just 4gate, but the majority of my losses are simply from a slow reaction to his army charging my ramp, or a misplaced forcefield. I almost always win if I can hold the ramp. But I almost always win if I can hold the ramp, and at least have fun doing it.

Alternatively if some better protoss players are willing to try the build out and send me replays I'll edit those into the original post. I think that would be ideal tbh, as I'm very curious as to how it plays out at the ultra-high levels.
<3 Nony
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
February 14 2011 22:17 GMT
#5
On February 15 2011 07:09 Methy wrote:
I'll save all of my pvp games over the next few weeks and upload some better replays.

Unfortunately I had way more success when I used to just 4gate, but the majority of my losses are simply from a slow reaction to his army charging my ramp, or a misplaced forcefield. I almost always win if I can hold the ramp. But I almost always win if I can hold the ramp, and at least have fun doing it.

Alternatively if some better protoss players are willing to try the build out and send me replays I'll edit those into the original post. I think that would be ideal tbh, as I'm very curious as to how it plays out at the ultra-high levels.



Need to get Liquid Tyler to dust off his Phoenix build boots. I remember an old Day9 daily that just went over Tyler's Phoenix build it was really impressive. Though it has a pretty high fail rate do to close rush distances and the popularity of 4 gating. Though I think the Protoss players of the world are tired of the 4 gate and want to expand their play. Thanks for posting I will def like to try this out myself.
I am Godzilla You are Japan
Comprissent
Profile Joined September 2010
United States314 Posts
February 14 2011 22:19 GMT
#6
I hope this can really work out in high levels, it would be refreshing

I do feel sentries are too gimmicky to try and stay alive due to forcefields only, i don't want to put myself in a position where a misclick instantly loses me the game.

If your opponent takes advantage of the newly lowered research time of hallucinate, you may be in for trouble as he will then be able to see up your ramp and warp in. And seeing that your army composition is mostly sentry at that point, consider yourself dead. Opening stargate blind is a bit risky as you may lose to DT without detection.

I think adding a forge to this BO can really help you out quite a bit; you can get detection and an added defense for the (most likely) incoming 4g - seeing as you are making lots of sentries you should have lots of spare minerals.
He's French-Canadian, so he's gonna do fast expand into stupid zealot timing into something else gay
Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
February 14 2011 22:19 GMT
#7
On February 15 2011 07:06 freetgy wrote:
the reason why this doesn't work is that you can warp onto with a pylon the ramp then warp in the base since you get vision after the warpin. and this kills the strategy.
which makes you need 2 forcefields to block the ramp, which you shouldn't be able to sustain with 2 gates Stargate.


Actually it generally does.

Firstly, most players don't actually place the pylon so it's field covers the ramp, it just covers a tiny amount of the highground near the ramp.The time spent rebuilding a pylon closer buys you a lot of time to get some more units out.

Then, he can only generally fit 2 units on the ramp, getting an extra sentry is probably worthwhile, but you can literally throw one forcefield at the top and bottom. of the ramp, and kill the units on the ramp, preserving line of sight, if he keeps doing it, he's wasting resources, and you can let some of his army up the ramp before blocking off the rest and cleaning up what's on top of your ramp with the help of a phoenix or two.

At the end of the day, the 4 unit warp in onto your high ground to get line of sight is *only* effective when those 4 units are a significant part of your army (read in the first 1-2 warp-in cycles) Delaying this at all with forcefields right at the bottom of the ramp buys you enough time to get enough units out to simply crush any 4 unit warp-in while maintaining ff at the bottom of the ramp.

Bear in mind that FF has a long enough range that sentries can FF without being shot by stalkers at the bottom. It's not easy, and it requires a lot of intense micro, but it can be done.


As I said in my original post, I still lose about 40% of all my PvPs instantly, just through failing to hold the ramp. My overall PvP winrate with this build is probably below 50%, but I simply don't have the coordination and skill to properly forcefield my ramp. I *STILL* prefer playing this way, despite the fact that I'd be better off with a simple 4 gate.

<3 Nony
Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
February 14 2011 22:25 GMT
#8
On February 15 2011 07:19 Comprissent wrote:
If your opponent takes advantage of the newly lowered research time of hallucinate.



I did address hallucinate in the original post. Bear in mind that a 4gate rush simply doesn't have the gas available to spend on a) many sentries and b) a blind hallucinate research. If they've gone for an ultra fast 4 gate (the most deadly kind) they will have 1 gas and 0 sentries when they push.

You're talking about a delay to get a sentry out, the *80* second research on hallucinate, which is 53 seconds even when perma-chronoboosted. And all of this only after they've seen the forcefield strat.

You will have enough of an army at this point to deflect high ground warpins with ease, nevermind that you will have phoenixes out to quickly snipe the hallucination.

At some point you do have to deal with a 4gate army, the idea is to stall until your superior economy and tech kicks in
<3 Nony
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
February 14 2011 22:26 GMT
#9
The reason why this doesn't work is that you can warp onto with a pylon the ramp then warp in the base since you get vision after the warpin. and this kills the strategy.
which makes you need 2 forcefields to block the ramp, which you shouldn't be able to sustain with 2 gates Stargate.


You can place a ff perfectly-they cant warp in to get sight up the ramp AND they cant poke up the ramp with main force and get vision of your high ground. You only need 1 ff.
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
thrawn2112
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6918 Posts
February 14 2011 22:29 GMT
#10
If high lever players start posting replays I bet everyone will become more excited. The build looks fun, spam clicking phoenixes around the map is the greatest.
"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-14 22:34:20
February 14 2011 22:32 GMT
#11
to stop a 4 gates, you need 2 FFs at the ramp to stop zealots wrap in, not 1.

this build is really good but the fact that you cannot stop 4 gates with it make it completely useless

if you still think you only need 1 ff, test it out on step! you always can wrap a zealot in some where in middle of the ramp to get sight high ground

^this all has been confirmed from all top high level players so dont try to deny it
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
February 14 2011 22:32 GMT
#12
On February 15 2011 07:29 thrawn2112 wrote:
If high lever players start posting replays I bet everyone will become more excited. The build looks fun, spam clicking phoenixes around the map is the greatest.


Yeah that would be ideal. But I really appreciate all input, I am determined to find a way to make phoenixes work in PvP, even if it's not a particularly succesful laddering strategy.
<3 Nony
Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
February 14 2011 22:36 GMT
#13
On February 15 2011 07:32 NB wrote:
to stop a 4 gates, you need 2 FFs at the ramp to stop zealots wrap in, not 1.

this build is really good but the fact that you cannot stop 4 gates with it make it completely useless



I've already addressed this. I'm not denying you will have to deal with a 4gate army at some point, but the crucial thing is the timing. Any delays to a 4gate rush and it becomes significantly weaker, in the large army limit phoenixes turn out to be more effective than straight gateway units (at least in every experience of it I have had), the idea is to stall until you get them out.

and bear in mind 4-5 phoenixes are often enough, you must bear in mind that while delaying his push, you can be fly about with phoenixes, and pick off sentries and zealots with ease. Stalkers just don't kill phoenixes quick enough, or move quick enough to ward them off. If his stalkers are surrounding the ramp in an attempt to get vision and snipe something, circle round behind them and pick off a zealot. Pick off the probe building proxy pylons

Again, I lose most of my games to simply not holding the ramp, but I'm reaching the point where I'm holding it more often than not against master level players.
<3 Nony
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-14 22:40:54
February 14 2011 22:38 GMT
#14
I cannot see how you can stop a 4-gate where he abuses zealot warp-ins on your ramp over your FFs, nor blink stalkers (you can abuse warp-ins over the FF to gain vision to blink if necessary).

I've experimented with stargate openers after I fend off a 4-gate with a 3-gate, but found that I just get completely hard-countered by blink stalkers. However in the off chance you can confirm they are going 1-base robo early enough it is very effective IMO. Also if they do any type of early expand play I've found phoenix openers are quite strong as well, and preferable than trying to catch up to him with your own expo.

edit: oh I see you are talking about double FF'ing the ramp. In that scenario you would need 6 sentries to keep the ramp perma double FF'ed no?
Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-14 22:48:48
February 14 2011 22:46 GMT
#15
On February 15 2011 07:38 Skyro wrote:
I cannot see how you can stop a 4-gate where he abuses zealot warp-ins on your ramp over your FFs, nor blink stalkers (you can abuse warp-ins over the FF to gain vision to blink if necessary).

I've experimented with stargate openers after I fend off a 4-gate with a 3-gate, but found that I just get completely hard-countered by blink stalkers. However in the off chance you can confirm they are going 1-base robo early enough it is very effective IMO. Also if they do any type of early expand play I've found phoenix openers are quite strong as well, and preferable than trying to catch up to him with your own expo.

edit: oh I see you are talking about double FF'ing the ramp. In that scenario you would need 6 sentries to keep the ramp perma double FF'ed no?


Correct, but the idea is not to keep the ramp forcefielded forever, just delay the 4gate push as much as possible. Most players will pull stalkers back if phoenixes get to their mineral line.

Blink stalkers are a huge issue for this build yes, but bear in mind that:
A) blink stalker tech kicks in at around the same time as phoenix tech.
B) You're effectively going 2gate + 1 stargate vs 3gate (4gate blink stalkers are not effective)
C) Phoenixes can be used to limit the mobility of blink stalkers, lifting one or two and charging your army forward. Either his remaining stalkers take hits from zealots, or you get 2 easy stalker kills.


I haven't had much experience against blink stalker plays since it's a much less common build, but even then remember that sentries forcefields are still useful, plenty of sentries means plenty of guardian shield as well. It's also VERY difficult to get an entire stalker army up a forcefielded ramp without losing any.

You need to try and damage a blink stalker play early, and then try and catch back up with blink stalkers of your own.


Think delay delay delay, anything you can do to stall him (picking off proxy probe and any others sent from the base for example) puts the game in your favour
<3 Nony
CodECleaR
Profile Joined November 2010
United States395 Posts
February 14 2011 22:52 GMT
#16
^this all has been confirmed from all top high level players so dont try to deny it

Don't need to get so defensive brah.
Meh I wouldnt know anyway tbh because i usually adelscott in pvp, so 4gates arent a problem
How do you beat a terran who's hardcore turtling off 3 base? Flip him on his back and walk away."
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-14 22:58:24
February 14 2011 22:53 GMT
#17
again, i don't disagree with stargate beeing a strong opener, only the issue of surviving a perfect 4 Gate Ramp Warp-in Abuse.

a decent 4 Gate hits at 5:30-5:45 how many forcefields you can sustain during that time?

i remember Response hardly to try to make this work, and it only worked barely with double forcefields Sentry of 3 Gates as far as i have in mind.

i'll give you another idea which imho is alot more viable.
Get Forge first, bait a canon rush while getting Stargate tech.
this will prevent any 4 Gate (if he goes forge himself in reaction)

(you don't actually want to build canons just delay any aggression of him, while in your base boosting econ! while teching to stargate.

i still have in mind to make such a BO work, but never got the time to make it work.
Gitch
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom27 Posts
February 14 2011 22:58 GMT
#18
Nice post. Could a cannon wall off opening be viable? Just thinking it wouldn't really put you far behind as you are so eco heavy and production/tech light. Plus it may encourage builds than you can counter such as collosus or void ray. I'm not at your level but just a thought.
Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
February 14 2011 22:59 GMT
#19
Yeah, that will always be the challenge of PvP, however, don't underestimate using two forcefields on the ramp. Consider it from the enemies perspective, there are two forcefields, he needs to warp in, does he try and wait for the forcefield to disappear and hope you don't have another, significantly wasting warp in time, or does he just wait another warp in cycle and not waste the time?

Units on the low ground will always still struggle to get up the ramp, zealots warped in on the high ground are rediculously easy pickings for phoenixes without much risk from stalkers picking them off due to their mobility. Hence a delay of 30-60 seconds is often enough to hold off the 4gate rush.
<3 Nony
Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
February 14 2011 23:03 GMT
#20
On February 15 2011 07:58 Gitch wrote:
Nice post. Could a cannon wall off opening be viable? Just thinking it wouldn't really put you far behind as you are so eco heavy and production/tech light. Plus it may encourage builds than you can counter such as collosus or void ray. I'm not at your level but just a thought.


No, not in my experience.

I tried playing around with cannons, and while they are very good for defending 4gates, you simply have to invest too much into them. I tried a 1 gate 1 forge 1 stargate build initially, but a good opponent sees the cannons, realises you can't actually attack him and win, meaning he is safe to power his economy and leave his stalkers in his mineral line, provided he constantly scouts for an expansion.

Also, using the forge for early upgrades is largely wasted due to the smaller ground army.

Cannons further expose the builds greatest weakness: dealing with blink stalkers. Blinkstalkers can simply ignore cannons all together and kill you off while your tiny army runs around doing nothing.
<3 Nony
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