EPTEDIT: This is CB vs Mule not CB vs OC, dont make more of it then it is.
edit: A lot of usefull information has come acros the discussion. There where some very standard things I didnt take into consideration, like CC cant produce scv's while morfing into an OC. But this is the great thing about sience. there can always be a new, better theorie that will replace the old one (thanks to Popper).So someone please take in consideration everything that has been said, run some test and come with a new more sufisticated thread. At the end we will know the details and everybody will have gained a little knowledge (but as all knowlegde, important) about the world that is called SC2.
Hey guys,
In lots of streams where there are casters, the casters will talk about the Terran having little less scv's but that its pretty even with the mules. I am sure everybody will have heard this in millions of casts. The probolem is that they dont really talk about the precise differences in numbers. That is why I made this easy breakdown, with this everybody who is interesed will know presciely when someone is ahead or not (taking in account the mules)
Everyhing is ingame time.
A Mule costs 50 energy to call down. Collecting 50 energy takes 1 min and 50 seconds (1.15 real time). Every Mule collects 270 minerals. This mean that every 1.50 min Terran can collect 270 minerals with his Mule.
4 harvesters collect in 250 minerals in 1.50 min. This means that protoss needs to have approximately 4 harvesters more than the Terran to be on even footing.
Protoss can Chronoboost every 25 energy. Every Chronoboost gives 50% time reduction for 20 seconds. A probe takes 17 seconds to build. So with one Chronoboost a Protoss can make 2 harvesters. Giving them a lead of 1 harvester comapred to the Terran player. This means that Protoss needs to spend 4 times 25 energy (100 energy) on Chronoboosting his harvesters.
edit:
On January 24 2011 23:17 freetgy wrote:
Chronoboost makes buildtime faster by 50%
not 100%
so the buildtime is not cut in half but 2/3 (if you constantly chronoboost)
so 1 Chronoboost on probes gives you a buildtime reduction of 10s
meaning if you build 2 Probes: which usually take 2*17=34s
it know takes 24s, so the advantage is 10s more mining time by each chronoboost.
(taking into account if both players build constant workers)
Chronoboost makes buildtime faster by 50%
not 100%
so the buildtime is not cut in half but 2/3 (if you constantly chronoboost)
so 1 Chronoboost on probes gives you a buildtime reduction of 10s
meaning if you build 2 Probes: which usually take 2*17=34s
it know takes 24s, so the advantage is 10s more mining time by each chronoboost.
(taking into account if both players build constant workers)
In a normal opening for Protoss (13 gate 13 gas), he will have collected 100 enegry on his Nexus and the needed 200 minerals for probes to Chronoboost 4 extra probes at the 3.15 min mark.
With A normal opening from Terran (12 rax, 13 gas, 15 Orbital Command), the Terran will have his first Mule at presicely 3.15 min.
Now we have concluded that at the 3.15 mark both the Terran and the Protoss are about even (Terran has his Mule, Protoss has 4 extra probes). The Terran collects 20 minerals more every 1.50 min (everytime he can drop a mule) than the Protoss. The Protoss also needed to pay 200 minerals for his probes + their food costs (lets say 40 min) while the Terran only needed to pay 150 for his orbital command. The Terran is a little bit in the lead, but the Protoss can still Chronoboost out more probes or spend it on other things, while the Terran needs to drop his Mule everytime to stay on even footing.
(obviously the Protoss will need to chronoboost 4 more probes out everytime the Terran makes a new base to stay on even footing)
Conclusion
From now on you will know when playing or watching a stream that Protoss needs to be ahead by 4 harvesters for every Orbital Command the Terran has.
Early game both the Terran and the Protoss are on approximately even footing with the ability for the Protoss to get a little bit ahead (income wise) if he chooses to chronoboost more probes than the first 4.
The more Orbital Commands the Terran gets out, the more he will get ahead (army wise) because he will need less workers overal.
Edit:
On January 25 2011 00:54 MERLIN. wrote:
um mules also harvest on saturated minerals, meaning those 4 probes mean nothing on a mineral line of 25 probes because they dont get anymore time but 25 scvs plus 1 mule = 29 scvs : D
um mules also harvest on saturated minerals, meaning those 4 probes mean nothing on a mineral line of 25 probes because they dont get anymore time but 25 scvs plus 1 mule = 29 scvs : D
On January 25 2011 18:29 ShadowIord wrote:
You forget the fact that protoss dont need to waste time with probes building while the terran have to waste a svc per building.
You forget the fact that protoss dont need to waste time with probes building while the terran have to waste a svc per building.
Someone posted that 2 harvesters on mineral patches work 100% while the 3rd harvester on a mineral patch only works on 20% capasity. I cant find the post anymore. If I see it I will add it.
Hope you could follow it a little and that I have helped some of you with this little insight
Edit: Interesting post about chronoboosted probes:
On January 26 2011 01:18 Obsolescence wrote:
It takes ~40 seconds to gain the energy for chronoboost (working off of queen energy regen rate 0.625 energy/sec). First probe arrives 5.666 sec earlier. Second probe arrives [5.666 + 4.333] sec earlier. Every future probe will also arrive [5.666 + 4.333] seconds earlier until the next chrono boost where the third CB probe arrives [5.666 + 4.333 + 0.333] sec earlier with the fourth arriving [5.666 + 4.333 + 0.333 + 5.666] sec earlier. You can't just say, "the advantage is 10s more mining time," because the advantage is cumulative per probe.
Time 0:40, begin CB and probe.
CB Probe #1: spawns at 0:51, +5.666 sec mining time
CB Probe #2: spawns at 1:04, +10.00 sec mining time
Time 1:20, begin 2nd CB.
CB Probe #3: spawns at 1:21, +10.33 sec mining time
CB Probe #4: spawns at 1:32, +16.00 sec mining time
CB Probe #5: spawns at 1:45, +20.00 sec mining time
Time 2:00, begin 3rd CB.
CB Probe #6: spawns at 2:01, +20.66 sec mining time
CB Probe #7: spawns at 2:13, +26.33 sec mining time
CB Probe #8: spawns at 2:26, +30.00 sec mining time
Assuming a mining rate of 1 (actual value ~0.95 min/sec with 2 per patch), the probes listed here will generate roughly 130 extra minerals. If at this point you stop CB'ing probes, all future probes from this nexus (assuming constant production) will still have a bonus 30 seconds of mining time.
The mule ability generates minerals at a rate of ~270 minerals per 80 seconds or 3.375 min/sec.
With 3 CB's, the probes gain extra mining time which equates to 130 minerals for the first 176 seconds and 30 minerals per ~13.5 seconds. This works out to be roughly 3.2 min/sec. With 4 probe CB's the rate becomes ~4 min/sec.
CB starts earlier, has a higher income potential off 1 nexus/OC, but once you stop constant probe production / reach saturation the OC takes the lead because it's income is not dependent on the number of mineral patches available. In the end game, the mule is better for income, but the CB is better for everything else.
It takes ~40 seconds to gain the energy for chronoboost (working off of queen energy regen rate 0.625 energy/sec). First probe arrives 5.666 sec earlier. Second probe arrives [5.666 + 4.333] sec earlier. Every future probe will also arrive [5.666 + 4.333] seconds earlier until the next chrono boost where the third CB probe arrives [5.666 + 4.333 + 0.333] sec earlier with the fourth arriving [5.666 + 4.333 + 0.333 + 5.666] sec earlier. You can't just say, "the advantage is 10s more mining time," because the advantage is cumulative per probe.
Time 0:40, begin CB and probe.
CB Probe #1: spawns at 0:51, +5.666 sec mining time
CB Probe #2: spawns at 1:04, +10.00 sec mining time
Time 1:20, begin 2nd CB.
CB Probe #3: spawns at 1:21, +10.33 sec mining time
CB Probe #4: spawns at 1:32, +16.00 sec mining time
CB Probe #5: spawns at 1:45, +20.00 sec mining time
Time 2:00, begin 3rd CB.
CB Probe #6: spawns at 2:01, +20.66 sec mining time
CB Probe #7: spawns at 2:13, +26.33 sec mining time
CB Probe #8: spawns at 2:26, +30.00 sec mining time
Assuming a mining rate of 1 (actual value ~0.95 min/sec with 2 per patch), the probes listed here will generate roughly 130 extra minerals. If at this point you stop CB'ing probes, all future probes from this nexus (assuming constant production) will still have a bonus 30 seconds of mining time.
The mule ability generates minerals at a rate of ~270 minerals per 80 seconds or 3.375 min/sec.
With 3 CB's, the probes gain extra mining time which equates to 130 minerals for the first 176 seconds and 30 minerals per ~13.5 seconds. This works out to be roughly 3.2 min/sec. With 4 probe CB's the rate becomes ~4 min/sec.
CB starts earlier, has a higher income potential off 1 nexus/OC, but once you stop constant probe production / reach saturation the OC takes the lead because it's income is not dependent on the number of mineral patches available. In the end game, the mule is better for income, but the CB is better for everything else.
Edit: Another interesting post!
On January 26 2011 04:14 Lurk wrote:
While trying to develop a model for this i found out that scv's not mining during building is actually a huge factor to consider. Over the course of the first 6 minutes, a terran would have an average of 1.5 scvs building and not mining. This is what i came up with so far:
Assumptions:
- Terran will open 1/1/1
- Protoss will do 2 gate robo
- both will get 1st and 2nd gas at the same time and put 3 workers in there once finished
- both will produce workers non-stop
- scvs building a building will not mine
- both players will scout and thus have one worker not mining for the duration
- mules will be used nonstop
- cb will be used first at 1:10 and afterwards once you have enough energy and always on probes
- workers traveling to build buildings is not accounted for since both the terran and protoss suffer from it.
The result so far is that after 6 minutes gametime, the protoss will have a slightly oversaturated main with 31 workers and the terran will have 24 workers and one mule. Both will have mined exactly the same amount of gas (581). The terran will have mined 3228 minerals until now and spent 1050 on svcs/oc, netting 2178 minerals surplus. The protoss will have mined 3539 minerals and spent 1250 on probes, netting 2289 minerals surplus. So in this scenario, the protoss has 111 more minerals at his disposal after 6 minutes. However, he has to expand earlier, due to already being saturated.
However, even if the protoss stays on one base after being saturated (30 probes) and just stops probe production, he will still be ahead in total minerals mined once the terran hits saturation at about 7:30 gametime. At this point it's 3230 (terran) vs 3536 (protoss) minerals surplus.
Even though this is a simplified model i think it shows that both cb and mule are comparable and if at all, the protoss has a slight advantage.
While trying to develop a model for this i found out that scv's not mining during building is actually a huge factor to consider. Over the course of the first 6 minutes, a terran would have an average of 1.5 scvs building and not mining. This is what i came up with so far:
Assumptions:
- Terran will open 1/1/1
- Protoss will do 2 gate robo
- both will get 1st and 2nd gas at the same time and put 3 workers in there once finished
- both will produce workers non-stop
- scvs building a building will not mine
- both players will scout and thus have one worker not mining for the duration
- mules will be used nonstop
- cb will be used first at 1:10 and afterwards once you have enough energy and always on probes
- workers traveling to build buildings is not accounted for since both the terran and protoss suffer from it.
The result so far is that after 6 minutes gametime, the protoss will have a slightly oversaturated main with 31 workers and the terran will have 24 workers and one mule. Both will have mined exactly the same amount of gas (581). The terran will have mined 3228 minerals until now and spent 1050 on svcs/oc, netting 2178 minerals surplus. The protoss will have mined 3539 minerals and spent 1250 on probes, netting 2289 minerals surplus. So in this scenario, the protoss has 111 more minerals at his disposal after 6 minutes. However, he has to expand earlier, due to already being saturated.
However, even if the protoss stays on one base after being saturated (30 probes) and just stops probe production, he will still be ahead in total minerals mined once the terran hits saturation at about 7:30 gametime. At this point it's 3230 (terran) vs 3536 (protoss) minerals surplus.
Even though this is a simplified model i think it shows that both cb and mule are comparable and if at all, the protoss has a slight advantage.
Re-edit: "Mules can harvest together with scv's"
This isnt what the original post is about and there is not any explicit knowledge about this subject, but a lot of people want to argue about the fact that Mules can mine together with scv's. I have talked with some all-round Terran players about this subject and will put our opinions in the threat (or is it Thread? :p)
First thing to take in to consideration that this has all to do with the late game. Not early game because if u want to do an 1 base all in or two base all in you will probably not fully saturate your bases anyway.
You need to see your Mules as a core mining unit, not a unit that gives you extra minerals that you wouldnt get (wouldnt need) in a normal game.
You need to think about how many workers you want to make. Most players will have two running basis at a time, this will give a need of 60 workers. (by the time you get your third your first will be mined out etc.) You will have around 3 bases when u get to the 60 harvesters. This means that Terran can make 48 scv's (3 mules are comparable to 12 workers = 12 food), then stop, and have 2 basis at a time running.
Most Terran however will make the full 60 scv's and ues the OC's for scans instead of Mules, or they will take a 4th/5th base sooner and Mule that base instead of using scv's.
An argument to this is that instead of muling from a 4th or 5th base you can just mule from the two running bases. Obviously its a matter of what u like best, but the two running bases will dry up much sooner making you still need to get a 4th/5th base running sooner then your opponent.
So in our opinion being bale to mule and harvest with scv's from one base wont really give you an advantage. The advantage may in the fact that you can have a larger army while mining the same as the opponent or have the same army but mine faster than the opponent in late game.
