Edit # 235475: Thanks everybody who has put down his constructive criticism, I have really learned a lot about subtile differences between the matchups. Fail to everybody who can only whine!
EDIT: This is CB vs Mule not CB vs OC, dont make more of it then it is.
edit: A lot of usefull information has come acros the discussion. There where some very standard things I didnt take into consideration, like CC cant produce scv's while morfing into an OC. But this is the great thing about sience. there can always be a new, better theorie that will replace the old one (thanks to Popper).So someone please take in consideration everything that has been said, run some test and come with a new more sufisticated thread. At the end we will know the details and everybody will have gained a little knowledge (but as all knowlegde, important) about the world that is called SC2.
Hey guys,
In lots of streams where there are casters, the casters will talk about the Terran having little less scv's but that its pretty even with the mules. I am sure everybody will have heard this in millions of casts. The probolem is that they dont really talk about the precise differences in numbers. That is why I made this easy breakdown, with this everybody who is interesed will know presciely when someone is ahead or not (taking in account the mules)
Everyhing is ingame time.
A Mule costs 50 energy to call down. Collecting 50 energy takes 1 min and 50 seconds (1.15 real time). Every Mule collects 270 minerals. This mean that every 1.50 min Terran can collect 270 minerals with his Mule.
4 harvesters collect in 250 minerals in 1.50 min. This means that protoss needs to have approximately 4 harvesters more than the Terran to be on even footing.
Protoss can Chronoboost every 25 energy. Every Chronoboost gives 50% time reduction for 20 seconds. A probe takes 17 seconds to build. So with one Chronoboost a Protoss can make 2 harvesters. Giving them a lead of 1 harvester comapred to the Terran player. This means that Protoss needs to spend 4 times 25 energy (100 energy) on Chronoboosting his harvesters.
edit:
On January 24 2011 23:17 freetgy wrote: Chronoboost makes buildtime faster by 50% not 100% so the buildtime is not cut in half but 2/3 (if you constantly chronoboost)
so 1 Chronoboost on probes gives you a buildtime reduction of 10s meaning if you build 2 Probes: which usually take 2*17=34s it know takes 24s, so the advantage is 10s more mining time by each chronoboost. (taking into account if both players build constant workers)
In a normal opening for Protoss (13 gate 13 gas), he will have collected 100 enegry on his Nexus and the needed 200 minerals for probes to Chronoboost 4 extra probes at the 3.15 min mark.
With A normal opening from Terran (12 rax, 13 gas, 15 Orbital Command), the Terran will have his first Mule at presicely 3.15 min.
Now we have concluded that at the 3.15 mark both the Terran and the Protoss are about even (Terran has his Mule, Protoss has 4 extra probes). The Terran collects 20 minerals more every 1.50 min (everytime he can drop a mule) than the Protoss. The Protoss also needed to pay 200 minerals for his probes + their food costs (lets say 40 min) while the Terran only needed to pay 150 for his orbital command. The Terran is a little bit in the lead, but the Protoss can still Chronoboost out more probes or spend it on other things, while the Terran needs to drop his Mule everytime to stay on even footing.
(obviously the Protoss will need to chronoboost 4 more probes out everytime the Terran makes a new base to stay on even footing)
Conclusion From now on you will know when playing or watching a stream that Protoss needs to be ahead by 4 harvesters for every Orbital Command the Terran has.
Early game both the Terran and the Protoss are on approximately even footing with the ability for the Protoss to get a little bit ahead (income wise) if he chooses to chronoboost more probes than the first 4.
The more Orbital Commands the Terran gets out, the more he will get ahead (army wise) because he will need less workers overal.
Edit:
On January 25 2011 00:54 MERLIN. wrote: um mules also harvest on saturated minerals, meaning those 4 probes mean nothing on a mineral line of 25 probes because they dont get anymore time but 25 scvs plus 1 mule = 29 scvs : D
On January 25 2011 18:29 ShadowIord wrote: You forget the fact that protoss dont need to waste time with probes building while the terran have to waste a svc per building.
Someone posted that 2 harvesters on mineral patches work 100% while the 3rd harvester on a mineral patch only works on 20% capasity. I cant find the post anymore. If I see it I will add it.
Hope you could follow it a little and that I have helped some of you with this little insight
Edit: Interesting post about chronoboosted probes:
On January 26 2011 01:18 Obsolescence wrote: It takes ~40 seconds to gain the energy for chronoboost (working off of queen energy regen rate 0.625 energy/sec). First probe arrives 5.666 sec earlier. Second probe arrives [5.666 + 4.333] sec earlier. Every future probe will also arrive [5.666 + 4.333] seconds earlier until the next chrono boost where the third CB probe arrives [5.666 + 4.333 + 0.333] sec earlier with the fourth arriving [5.666 + 4.333 + 0.333 + 5.666] sec earlier. You can't just say, "the advantage is 10s more mining time," because the advantage is cumulative per probe.
Time 0:40, begin CB and probe. CB Probe #1: spawns at 0:51, +5.666 sec mining time CB Probe #2: spawns at 1:04, +10.00 sec mining time Time 1:20, begin 2nd CB. CB Probe #3: spawns at 1:21, +10.33 sec mining time CB Probe #4: spawns at 1:32, +16.00 sec mining time CB Probe #5: spawns at 1:45, +20.00 sec mining time Time 2:00, begin 3rd CB. CB Probe #6: spawns at 2:01, +20.66 sec mining time CB Probe #7: spawns at 2:13, +26.33 sec mining time CB Probe #8: spawns at 2:26, +30.00 sec mining time
Assuming a mining rate of 1 (actual value ~0.95 min/sec with 2 per patch), the probes listed here will generate roughly 130 extra minerals. If at this point you stop CB'ing probes, all future probes from this nexus (assuming constant production) will still have a bonus 30 seconds of mining time.
The mule ability generates minerals at a rate of ~270 minerals per 80 seconds or 3.375 min/sec. With 3 CB's, the probes gain extra mining time which equates to 130 minerals for the first 176 seconds and 30 minerals per ~13.5 seconds. This works out to be roughly 3.2 min/sec. With 4 probe CB's the rate becomes ~4 min/sec.
CB starts earlier, has a higher income potential off 1 nexus/OC, but once you stop constant probe production / reach saturation the OC takes the lead because it's income is not dependent on the number of mineral patches available. In the end game, the mule is better for income, but the CB is better for everything else.
Edit: Another interesting post!
On January 26 2011 04:14 Lurk wrote: While trying to develop a model for this i found out that scv's not mining during building is actually a huge factor to consider. Over the course of the first 6 minutes, a terran would have an average of 1.5 scvs building and not mining. This is what i came up with so far:
Assumptions: - Terran will open 1/1/1 - Protoss will do 2 gate robo - both will get 1st and 2nd gas at the same time and put 3 workers in there once finished - both will produce workers non-stop - scvs building a building will not mine - both players will scout and thus have one worker not mining for the duration - mules will be used nonstop - cb will be used first at 1:10 and afterwards once you have enough energy and always on probes - workers traveling to build buildings is not accounted for since both the terran and protoss suffer from it.
The result so far is that after 6 minutes gametime, the protoss will have a slightly oversaturated main with 31 workers and the terran will have 24 workers and one mule. Both will have mined exactly the same amount of gas (581). The terran will have mined 3228 minerals until now and spent 1050 on svcs/oc, netting 2178 minerals surplus. The protoss will have mined 3539 minerals and spent 1250 on probes, netting 2289 minerals surplus. So in this scenario, the protoss has 111 more minerals at his disposal after 6 minutes. However, he has to expand earlier, due to already being saturated.
However, even if the protoss stays on one base after being saturated (30 probes) and just stops probe production, he will still be ahead in total minerals mined once the terran hits saturation at about 7:30 gametime. At this point it's 3230 (terran) vs 3536 (protoss) minerals surplus.
Even though this is a simplified model i think it shows that both cb and mule are comparable and if at all, the protoss has a slight advantage.
Re-edit: "Mules can harvest together with scv's" This isnt what the original post is about and there is not any explicit knowledge about this subject, but a lot of people want to argue about the fact that Mules can mine together with scv's. I have talked with some all-round Terran players about this subject and will put our opinions in the threat (or is it Thread? :p)
First thing to take in to consideration that this has all to do with the late game. Not early game because if u want to do an 1 base all in or two base all in you will probably not fully saturate your bases anyway.
You need to see your Mules as a core mining unit, not a unit that gives you extra minerals that you wouldnt get (wouldnt need) in a normal game.
You need to think about how many workers you want to make. Most players will have two running basis at a time, this will give a need of 60 workers. (by the time you get your third your first will be mined out etc.) You will have around 3 bases when u get to the 60 harvesters. This means that Terran can make 48 scv's (3 mules are comparable to 12 workers = 12 food), then stop, and have 2 basis at a time running.
Most Terran however will make the full 60 scv's and ues the OC's for scans instead of Mules, or they will take a 4th/5th base sooner and Mule that base instead of using scv's.
An argument to this is that instead of muling from a 4th or 5th base you can just mule from the two running bases. Obviously its a matter of what u like best, but the two running bases will dry up much sooner making you still need to get a 4th/5th base running sooner then your opponent.
So in our opinion being bale to mule and harvest with scv's from one base wont really give you an advantage. The advantage may in the fact that you can have a larger army while mining the same as the opponent or have the same army but mine faster than the opponent in late game.
mules are good because they can harvest simultaneously with scv's, which means you can increase your mineral income after the 24 worker saturation while chronoboost lets you saturate your bases faster with probes
so in equal bases, that are already saturated, mules gives you a mineral income advantage while chronoboost is good if you have bases that are still to be saturated
On January 24 2011 22:36 siri wrote: mules are good because they can harvest simultaneously with scv's, which means you can increase your mineral income after the 24 worker saturation while chronoboost lets you saturate your bases faster with probes
so mules are good if your base is already saturate and chronoboost is good if you have bases that are not saturated
thats all you need to know
Its a way to put it. I like knowing why something is good or isnt good. but u normally get your second base before your first is fully saturated and your third when ur first is running out. Also you dont want to mule from a fully saturated base becuase it will drane the base to fast, always Mule on new bases.
MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
Yes. I'm saying that what op is saying is not really accurate. Because P has to spend 200 extra minerals per OC to stay even in income.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
I think he got to the maths part of the OP and stopped... Which is a shame, because clearly he could use some rational argument.
Good break down. Once scans have to be used (and they do.) I think it'd be somewhat close. There is no denying of the power of Mules for huge spikes, ie; saving up 2x orbitals (8 mules) for when your gold is ready. Protoss just CAN NOT spike like that. The positive of chrono is obviously being able to bust out units and upgrades, but also the mule has a HUGE target on their forehead.
However, if I had to choose, I'd say I'd take the mule.... Although I often wish I could chronoboost stim out
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
Yes. I'm saying that what op is saying is not accurate. Because P has to spend 200 extra minerals per OC to stay even in income.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
Yes. I'm saying that what op is saying is not accurate. Because P has to spend 200 extra minerals per OC to stay even in income.
Well if U did read the OP you should know that I talked about it and put it in to account ... Also think about that after 25 energy protoss will have 1 extra harvester for a while than after 50 2 than after 75 3 and after 100 when they have 4 it will be the first time Terrran drops a mule.
Upon the mule die: 12000 (8 batches of mineral x 1500, 16 batches if that player FE) - (mineral left in batch 1 + min left in batch 2 + .....) = Total minerals harvested until the mules die.
If you use that fomula and track down the first 3 mules, you'll see that Terran's income is always lower than Protoss's EVEN WHEN Terran use mules. If for some reason Terran uses the scan, he will 100% be behind economically.
Of course the advantage of mules is it can harvest the same batch with the scvs, but unless the Terran is being contained or commits to 1,2 base play, he rarely use mules on saturated bases but save energy for scan.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
Yes. I'm saying that what op is saying is not accurate. Because P has to spend 200 extra minerals per OC to stay even in income.
Orbital commands are not free.
150 mins is nothing in comparison to a free 270 mins every 90 seconds. Heck, the first MULE you drops gets you that back.
And I guess I really worded my other post really bad, and didn't make another point I meant to make lol.
P has to spend 200 minerals and chronoboost to stay even in income with a t, while this also deprives him of being able to chrono upgrades and units, which will put him behind in the unit department. Pure math-wise, I know what he's saying, but T doesn't have to use his "economy ability" to keep his army up to date, he's free to spam MULEs all game, because they don't affect army. While early game, if P doesn't use chrono on things like warpgates, then they can be pretty behind in army, as it kills most of their early attack timings.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
Yes. I'm saying that what op is saying is not accurate. Because P has to spend 200 extra minerals per OC to stay even in income.
Orbital commands are not free.
150 mins is nothing in comparison to a free 270 mins every 90 seconds. Heck, the first MULE you drops gets you that back.
And I guess I really worded my other post really bad, and didn't make another point I meant to make lol.
You will already have your 4 extra probes out before your gateway is even finished... So you can ctually spend your Chronoboost on other things while Terran needs to use all his energy for mules. P has to spend 200 minerals and chronoboost to stay even in income with a t, while this also deprives him of being able to chrono upgrades and units, which will put him behind in the unit department. Pure math-wise, I know what he's saying, but T doesn't have to use his "economy ability" to keep his army up to date, he's free to spam MULEs all game, because they don't affect army. While early game, if P doesn't use chrono on things like warpgates, then they can be pretty behind in army, as it kills most of their early attack timings.
Edit: okey adn now with comment... You will already have your 4 probes out before your first gateway is finshed (or roght around that time) meaning that u can use your chrono on other things while the Terran needs to spend alll his energy on muling.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
Yes. I'm saying that what op is saying is not accurate. Because P has to spend 200 extra minerals per OC to stay even in income.
Orbital commands are not free.
150 mins is nothing in comparison to a free 270 mins every 90 seconds. Heck, the first MULE you drops gets you that back.
And I guess I really worded my other post really bad, and didn't make another point I meant to make lol.
P has to spend 200 minerals and chronoboost to stay even in income with a t, while this also deprives him of being able to chrono upgrades and units, which will put him behind in the unit department. Pure math-wise, I know what he's saying, but T doesn't have to use his "economy ability" to keep his army up to date, he's free to spam MULEs all game, because they don't affect army. While early game, if P doesn't use chrono on things like warpgates, then they can be pretty behind in army, as it kills most of their early attack timings.
But it isn't 200 minerals straight away, it is 50 in a 10/15 second period. So the first probe is mining 3 more probe building time's life, the second 2, the third 1.
Chronoboost also comes in 25 energy time slots, thus allowing two for every mule/scan/drop. (though drop is largely ignored/hated these days).
I do think mules in their current state are very powerful, and the fact they aren't affected by scv's is a huge benefit. I think just removing that could really change things.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
i don't think he did
but besides all your saying i missed one thing. that is the buildtime of the orbital command and the amaunt of probes P can make in that time and t cant make scv's.
my personal experience with tvp is that t is behind in the start but p is behind when t's mineralline is saturated. Because yes mules can mine together with the scv's. Even with this all i think it is pretty nice balanced since scv's need to spend time to build and probes just blurp in buildings and go get on those delicious minerals again.
the biggest advantage of mules: players uderestimate 1 base 2cc+orbital play and think they are ahead because an expantion. getting gold with mules. having 4 workers for each orbital that die and reborn... so they live forever .
the things i like about chronoboost is you can use it on so much... fast probes fast units fast tech if you made a mistake by not making so much of X, just chorno boost X. Its makes protos very diverce.
arguments i always hear in the mule chronoboost larve inject if you mis one your behind. And that is true. for all 3 things. but all 3 race can compensate. by using them later on something else.
terran can choose then to mine minerals later what is always bad. but on the other hand terran needs them also for the lack of detection.
my conclusion is that sc2 is well balanced ... but every race has it downsides and upsides. It is the player that know what these are and how to abuse them who likes this most And people that don't know just use them to justify their loses to an other race because of the imbalance in sc2.
on even bases, the terran has the economic advantage. Chronoboost just gives you faster Unitoutput but Mules give you direct Ressource output, which is of course way better. Since having minerals now is better then later.
so too actually use chronoboost as an advantage, protoss actually has to expand more aggressiv then the opponent.
Which again can often be nullified due too strong early pressure by terrans. M&M beeing mostly minerals heavy helps them here alot.
but in the end it is just a different Macromechanic. (though i would prefer mules)
Also on a sidenote: Chronoboost makes buildtime faster by 50% not 100% so the buildtime is not cut in half but 2/3 (if you constantly chronoboost)
so 1 Chronoboost on probes gives you a buildtime reduction of 10s meaning if you build 2 Probes: which usually take 2*17=34s it know takes 24s, so the advantage is 10s more mining time by each chronoboost. (taking into account if both players build constant workers)
Chronoboost makes research or unit production run 50% faster for 20 seconds. This is not the same as a 50% time reduction. Fix your maths and try again.
I much prefer the versatility of chronoboost over a mule, and, realistically, not every once of energy is used on a mule. A lot is used on scans, and hell some poeple even use energy for the supply drop thingy. Also the instant access to chronoboost as supposed to waiting for OC allows you to take an early lead on probes and other stuff.
In my opinion mining is the least that Chrono/OC can provide... yes, you will get more minerals, more army, more stuff, but as you go through mid game gas is the resource that matters the most...
And ofcourse, Mule wont "give" you minerals, just make them mine faster -> you will be mined out faster. Supply drop will "give" you 100 minerals efectively.
And value of chronoboosted army/upgrades is mostly underestimated but in my opinion is more valuable than resources.
The biggest advantages of the MULE are being talked about in this thread, but weren't mentioned in the OP at all.
-MULEs can harvest minerals on top of SCVs
This means a fully saturated base of 24 workers on minerals, 6 in each gas is FAR better for a Terran than any other race. But acting like this only happens at 24 workers is already wrong. From the very first MULE you drop, it should be dropped on the closest mineral patch, and once you start getting 11+ workers on minerals (close patches can only fit 2 workers), each worker after that starts becoming less and less of an economic gain.
MULEs completely ignore this and just mine right over the top of whatever SCV is on that patch.
MULEs give an even bigger income % per drop if you have more than 11 workers on the mineral line.
-MULEs don't take supply
You say that Protoss player spent his 200 minerals and gets the consistant probes, that makes him even with the 150 mineral cost of the OC. But what you forgot was the 50 minerals worth of pylon that you took up. This adds to the awesome of the MULE from the very beginning of the game. So while the other races get to spend 250 minerals on equivalent harvesting (remember, it's not really equivalent because we have more than 11 workers on the mineral line) Terran can put that money into another Barracks and get himself even further ahead in the supply count.
This could get even worse in the late-game, though I haven't seen anything to that effect just yet. Supply is hard capped at 200. A Terran could build 10 OCs, live off MULE harvesting, and add those 40 supply worth of SCVs to their army. The best part? The OCs can be anywhere on the map, and they give supply to boot, 1.375 depots worth to be exact, not a bad deal at all.
-Terran will eventually have to spend his energy on scans!
Who said that's ever required? Does Terran not have Ravens, Turrets, EMP, and Sensor Towers all to help with their scouting, zoning and detection? Not even counting scans, Terran has twice as much detection capabilities as either of their opponents. Scans are used because they're just hands down better than the rest. Scans aren't a detriment to MULE income, they're a bonus to Terran awesome and used completely by choice. Forced scans only exist because Terrans can CHOOSE not to use the other methods of detection that are so required by the other races.
And my personal favorite that nobody seems to pay attention to:
-MULEs can't be harrassed!!
"OMG what? But mutas kill my MULEs ALL DAY!!!
Or... at least they did for that 90 seconds... then I just called down another one... cuz I got skills like that."
That's right, Kill 4 workers, you cost your opponent 200 more minerals + worker production time (or army production for Zerg) + mining time that can never be made up. Kill a MULE, you cost your opponent 50 energy + mining time that can never be made up. One of these things cost less than the other. I'll let you try to figure that out.
On January 24 2011 23:18 Jumbled wrote: Chronoboost makes research or unit production run 50% faster for 20 seconds. This is not the same as a 50% time reduction. Fix your maths and try again.
haha yeh thank you, thats what I meant.. I blame it on english being my second language :p
On January 24 2011 23:34 noD wrote: another balance discussion with a hidden complain in it ? kk but u forgot T workers stay all the time when building stuff so your logic is flawed =X
I think the OP is trying to say MULEs AREN'T OP. I on the other hand AM complaining about them.
But if you call me a noob loud enough, I'm sure nobody will read my post.
1 little problem with terran and scvs is that you tend to bring a few with you when you attack for repairs, bunkers and turrets, also note, terran buildings need an scv to construct for the whole duration, which means 1-2 scvs are always building supply depots, 2-3 building other stuff. I treat mules as being the filler for the lost income due to pulling scvs.
Of course, purely on a macro basis, MULE is always better in the long run for mineral gain. But don't forget, all 3 main building's abilities have their opportunity costs. Every boost you cast on probes means slower tech/units, every mule costs you a scan, your extra 4 larvae can be used in all sorts of diff ways.
Anyway, if your concerned about how mule can be harassed etc., not much point as you wouldnt be thinking aborut how chrono>mules if your getting attacked.
On January 24 2011 23:34 noD wrote: another balance discussion with a hidden complain in it ? kk but u forgot T workers stay all the time when building stuff so your logic is flawed =X
It isnt meant to be a complaint. I wnat to show people when they are behind and when they are not. And yes there are obviously many other things to take in to consideration, like the scv's staying with the buildings to make them while the Protoss can be harvesting. Or that Protoss needs to spend 100 minerals at 9 supply while terran can harvast till 10 supply but needs to make his barracks at 12 while protoss can wait with the gateway till 13 or 14 even.
The bottom line is that Blizzard has thought this all out very well, and that this thread is just a little step of understanding everyhing as best as possible
On January 24 2011 23:34 noD wrote: another balance discussion with a hidden complain in it ? kk but u forgot T workers stay all the time when building stuff so your logic is flawed =X
It isnt meant to be a complaint. I wnat to show people when they are behind and when they are not. And yes there are obviously many other things to take in to consideration, like the scv's staying with the buildings to make them while the Protoss can be harvesting. Or that Protoss needs to spend 100 minerals at 9 supply while terran can harvast till 10 supply but needs to make his barracks at 12 while protoss can wait with the gateway till 13 or 14 even.
The bottom line is that Blizzard has thought this all out very well, and that this thread is just a little step of understanding everyhing as best as possible
I agree ... Actually the basic basic basic mechanics shouldnt even be discussed they had 10 years to do that ...
The problem with Mules (in theory) is that they afford Terran some pretty unique and powerful benefits: the ability to generate additional income without needing extra bases, and the ability to artificially inflate their relative supply cap.
Compare this with Spawn Larva and Chronoboost: these abilities help you get more stuff, but this is hardly a unique ability - you can always just build more of the pertinent structures. Chronoboost allows for some interesting possibilities with upgrades and timings that aren't quite duplicatable by the other races, but as a unique ability, this hardly seems of the same order as those afforded to Terran. Spawn Larva allows you to change what you're producing on the fly, which is useful, but this is productionally equivalent to building more production structures.
There are two areas of comparison here:
1) Spawn Larva provides a re-allocation of production capacity that allows tech switching without building as many structures. Chronoboost also allows for re-allocation of production capacity, but allows this re-allocation to include upgrades at the cost of not being as powerful for tech switching as Spawn Larva. Orbital Commands allow Terran to gain additional income without building Command Centers at additional expansions.
2) Spawn Larva allows you to "save" a certain number of production cycles that you can use later, typically to re-max very quickly. Likewise, Chronoboost allows you to save up the ability to spontaneously boost your production capacity significantly. Replacing SCV's with Mules allows you to actually have more usable supply on the field.
With regards to 1, all races are capable of getting some kind of extra "production" without building extra structures. The disconnect comes from the fact that the extra Barracks can be built in a safe location, while if either of the other races wants extra income, they're forced to expand, which carries with it a number of risks.
With regards to 2, all races have a capability to bolster an army, especially in the late game. The disconnect comes from the fact that Terran can have those units all on the field at the same time. If you've ever been attacked with your army out of position, you know that throwing half your army at your opponent's whole army twice isn't nearly as strong as engaging once with your whole army. The same applies here.
Edit: I should probably note that this isn't some attempt to convey that ZOMG MULES ARE OP!, but rather to point out that Starcraft isn't strictly a game of numbers, and that unique capacities can be quite powerful and make it difficult to "math out" who is ahead. On paper, Terran seems to have some pretty powerful "non-numerical" benefits, which make attempts at analysis of game-states difficult if not futile.
On January 24 2011 22:36 siri wrote: mules are good because they can harvest simultaneously with scv's, which means you can increase your mineral income after the 24 worker saturation while chronoboost lets you saturate your bases faster with probes
so in equal bases, that are already saturated, mules gives you a mineral income advantage while chronoboost is good if you have bases that are still to be saturated
thats all you need to know
although, at that point CB can be used on producing useful units/upgrades. If OC energy is used on anything else (scans) the advantage is wasted.
Sorry OP, but you are making so many assumptions which are simply way too over-simplified. There are much more factors to take into account and I can't even think of all of them. * MULEs die, probes usually don't ( so you need new energy for every new MULE, but CB energy only for the first time) * Pylon cost, supply cost for probes * Saturation of minerals plays a role (MULEs dont care about saturation, probes do) * 1 chronoboost only makes ~1.76 (=30/17) probes, not 2 => more than 5 CBs needed for 4 extra probes * etc.
So, basically your post is not very helpful to be honest
You're only comparing the two abilities economy wise. It's not like a Terran can allow himself to only spend his OC energy on mules. Hell, just by using that 50 energy, doesn't mean it's a free gain. Mule dies too early and doesn't pay for himself, scan misses and doesn't reveal anything. Those can put Terran at a disadvantage. I'm not even mentioning extra supply, but let's ignore that.
A Protoss though can Chrono boost with no loss. Upgrades, warp gates, researches, workers, etc. Sure a structure can be sniped, but you're at fault for letting that happen.
Chrono is just way better, so Protoss do not need to be always 4 workers ahead of the number of OCs the Terran has. And what if the Terran has 50 OCs, are you gonna say the Protoss needs 200 workers? Yes it's an exaggeration, but do consider the possibility of mass OCs.
On January 24 2011 22:04 Deckkie wrote: Edit: alot of people are stating that the biggest advantage is that Mules can harvast next to scv's, making the Terran economy stronger from one base. ALtough this is true it should be taking in to consideration that this hurts the Terran the most. you want to mine longer from everybase. Surely it will give you the avantage in the beginning but it will hurt you when u need to be on the fourth base while Protoss can still mine out off three. A good terran will always drop his mules on a new unsaturated base.
This is so wrong. it's better to have the minerals already. Always.
Math is off. Chronoboost increases production by 50%. 150% is not 200%. You will make 3 workers when you would normally make 2, so it means you make probes 1/3 faster.
The whole text makes assumptions which are just wrong. Why do you want to mine out slower? Why do you think Mules mining side by side isn't a big deal? These 2 things make mules so powerfull, being able to mine out that gold base faster, while not being hindered by scvs.
Upon the mule die: 12000 (8 batches of mineral x 1500, 16 batches if that player FE) - (mineral left in batch 1 + min left in batch 2 + .....) = Total minerals harvested until the mules die.
If you use that fomula and track down the first 3 mules, you'll see that Terran's income is always lower than Protoss's EVEN WHEN Terran use mules. If for some reason Terran uses the scan, he will 100% be behind economically.
Of course the advantage of mules is it can harvest the same batch with the scvs, but unless the Terran is being contained or commits to 1,2 base play, he rarely use mules on saturated bases but save energy for scan.
This basically. Someone analyzed about 10+ top level TvP's and the terran was ALWAYS BEHIND IN ECONOMY IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. Luckily our units are more cost effective until there are collosus or storm, that's why every terran wants to end it quick. Also you need to scan and when you drop 8 mules on a gold patch because you are bad. You won't have the production facility's to back it up. So missing a mule is just like missing a larva inject.
1 gate/core FE against a 1 rax FE(wich isn't safe at all whilste 1 gate/core is) 1 gate/core is WAYYYYYYYYYY ahead in eco. It's not even funny how fast a protoss can saturate a base.
On January 25 2011 00:04 Deltablazy wrote: You're only comparing the two abilities economy wise. It's not like a Terran can allow himself to only spend his OC energy on mules. Hell, just by using that 50 energy, doesn't mean it's a free gain. Mule dies too early and doesn't pay for himself, scan misses and doesn't reveal anything. Those can put Terran at a disadvantage. I'm not even mentioning extra supply, but let's ignore that.
A Protoss though can Chrono boost with no loss. Upgrades, warp gates, researches, workers, etc. Sure a structure can be sniped, but you're at fault for letting that happen.
Chrono is just way better, so Protoss do not need to be always 4 workers ahead of the number of OCs the Terran has. And what if the Terran has 50 OCs, are you gonna say the Protoss needs 200 workers? Yes it's an exaggeration, but do consider the possibility of mass OCs.
Lol, sorry, but wut?
Why can't he allow to only use it on mules? Maybe you need a few scans, but most of them will be on mules.
You are saying that it is the protoss' fault for letting someone snipe the building, but when terran loses the mule it's not their fault? Why? Sometimes revealing nothing= something. If you don't see double gas at the expansion of zerg, it means mutas will be delayed or not coming at all. And after all, I think terran will be using energy more on eco than protoss, because they will chrono out upgrades/units too.
Your last paragraph makes no sense. Mule is the best macro mechanic for eco, without a doubt. Larva and cb can be used on something else, which kinda makes up for it.
Even though the math is not perfect (as you have to consider a TON of factors, as even the OP has stated), it's at least a kind of ok way to know who is ahead of who.
Upon the mule die: 12000 (8 batches of mineral x 1500, 16 batches if that player FE) - (mineral left in batch 1 + min left in batch 2 + .....) = Total minerals harvested until the mules die.
If you use that fomula and track down the first 3 mules, you'll see that Terran's income is always lower than Protoss's EVEN WHEN Terran use mules. If for some reason Terran uses the scan, he will 100% be behind economically.
Of course the advantage of mules is it can harvest the same batch with the scvs, but unless the Terran is being contained or commits to 1,2 base play, he rarely use mules on saturated bases but save energy for scan.
This basically. Someone analyzed about 10+ top level TvP's and the terran was ALWAYS BEHIND IN ECONOMY IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. Luckily our units are more cost effective until there are collosus or storm, that's why every terran wants to end it quick. Also you need to scan and when you drop 8 mules on a gold patch because you are bad. You won't have the production facility's to back it up. So missing a mule is just like missing a larva inject.
1 gate/core FE against a 1 rax FE(wich isn't safe at all whilste 1 gate/core is) 1 gate/core is WAYYYYYYYYYY ahead in eco. It's not even funny how fast a protoss can saturate a base.
1 gate/core is safer than 1 rax FE AND ahead in eco? I am calling bullshit on this until I see some replays or something.
50 energy regenerates in 88.(8) game seconds or ~61.8 seconds real time. 1.5 minutes is not 1 minute 50 seconds, it's 1 minute 30 seconds.
Mules mine 240 or 270 minerals depending on the mineral patch. If you use them only on the 270 ones then they will deplete faster limiting your mineral income, compared to if you spread them out.
At full saturation 4 workers will mine around 230-240 minerals for 90 seconds, but that's an average for all the workers, while the last 4 would've improved your mining rate by less than that. A mule is roughly equal to 4.5 workers on full saturation and 3 workers with low saturation.
The chronoboost stuff already got corrected and it means you will need more chronos to match a mule.
Protoss is ahead economically if he chronos his nexus, but approaching saturation quickly turns that around and the terran pulls ahead in mineral income by ~20%, while the protoss has to expand, which incurs additional costs and risks.
Depleting your minerals faster with Mules is not a disadvantage, just like having more probes than the terran has SCVs is not a disadvantage. You will get the same amount of minerals from the base(not an advantage or disadvantage, it's equal) in less time(an obvious advantage).
About the mining from more bases at the same time, it would be like terran having 4000 extra minerals spent on units or in the bank and 2 mining bases and the toss having 3 mining bases, with the extra base having 4000 minerals left. Clearly the terran is not hurt in any way.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
Yes. I'm saying that what op is saying is not accurate. Because P has to spend 200 extra minerals per OC to stay even in income.
Orbital commands are not free.
Orbital commands pay for themselves in slightly more then half a MULE drop, so as soon as the orbital finishes, you're ahead. Chrono boosted probes are a constant drain on the protoss economy.
MULEs are better then literally every other existing resource mechanic in the game. There's no point in arguing otherwise.
I read the OP but not all the posts (mostly cuz i didnt want to rage) so sorry if this has been posted.
Chrono boost in my experience (watching income tabs in my games as protoss) gives an economic boost that is very hard to quantify outside the very early game. While it is true that toss just boosts probes early when moving into a macro game which gives them close to equal econ up to the 5 or 6 minute mark, there comes a point for toss where the practical use of chrono shifts almost entirely to unit and upgrade production. This stage of the game lasts a LONG time for toss, often until the 15 ish minute mark. While i will freely admit that terran uses more scans as the game goes on, it is always the case in my games that throughout the game the vast majority of energy is spent on mules. I beleive it is this difference that makes their relative benefits hard to quantify. If others have noticed a different trend than this, feel free to say so but know that I have watched a number of pros using chrono the same way I do so I dont stand alone.
It has been proven in another thread several months ago (i'm too lazy to search for it, sorry) that a protoss using all of his CBs on probes is roughly equivalent to a terran using all his energy on mules in terms of income (actually the protoss was a tiny bit ahead but it was so miniscule i'll call it even). This was taking into account that mules can harvest on an occupied patch and also that scv's can't mine while building. Now, of course a protoss will sometimes use a CB on something else, maybe a warpgate or the forge. However, so will the terran, as he will use a scan or two or even a supply drop.
In a real world (actually it's not real world it's starcraft but you get what i mean) situation, protoss and terran will be roughly equivalent in terms of income, assuming they both expo at the same time. You can easily check this by comparing your income graph after a match with your opponents if you know you expod around the same time.
The argument that terran can stay longer on one base than protoss because of mules is kind of strange as well. While in essence it's true, by the time your main is fully saturated as terran, it's almost mined out anyway so you need to expand one way or another.
There is one advantage of mules that does play a role in balance terms and that is that they don't cost supply. That means that a 200/200 terran army usually has about 10-15 supply more in army units than a 200/200 protoss army (at equal income).
um mules also harvest on saturated minerals, meaning those 4 probes mean nothing on a mineral line of 25 probes because they dont get anymore time but 25 scvs plus 1 mule = 29 scvs : D
So umm I did read the OP and I'm thinking the same as I think with every about every comparison thread. Why? Why makes this comparison? If you are want to value races against each other you cant point out 2 random things and compare them against each other and conclude what you want about balance or whatever the point may be.
It's like comparing tier 3 units to determine the better lategame race and conclude that zerg is UP since carriers and battlecruisers beats the living shit out of ultras and broodlords, based on the fact that neither of the zerg units can attack air.
Any racial advantage or disadvantage must be taken into the huge unsolvable equation that determines balances and more importantly must be put into context, so I gotta ask once what the bloody deuce is the point of this thread?
On January 25 2011 00:44 Lurk wrote: It has been proven in another thread several months ago (i'm too lazy to search for it, sorry) that a protoss using all of his CBs on probes is roughly equivalent to a terran using all his energy on mules in terms of income (actually the protoss was a tiny bit ahead but it was so miniscule i'll call it even). This was taking into account that mules can harvest on an occupied patch and also that scv's can't mine while building. Now, of course a protoss will sometimes use a CB on something else, maybe a warpgate or the forge. However, so will the terran, as he will use a scan or two or even a supply drop.
In a real world (actually it's not real world it's starcraft but you get what i mean) situation, protoss and terran will be roughly equivalent in terms of income, assuming they both expo at the same time. You can easily check this by comparing your income graph after a match with your opponents if you know you expod around the same time.
The argument that terran can stay longer on one base than protoss because of mules is kind of strange as well. While in essence it's true, by the time your main is fully saturated as terran, it's almost mined out anyway so you need to expand one way or another.
There is one advantage of mules that does play a role in balance terms and that is that they don't cost supply. That means that a 200/200 terran army usually has about 10-15 supply more in army units than a 200/200 protoss army (at equal income).
I have seen the Thread, but that just stated: look when protoos Chronoboosts all the time they have a lead eco wise. This is meant to see why the lead can be there.
On January 24 2011 22:04 Deckkie wrote: edit: A lot of usefull information has come acros the discussion. There where some very standard things I didnt take into consideration, like CC cant produce scv's while morfing into an OC. But this is the great thing about sience. there can always be a new, better theorie that will replace the old one (thanks to Popper).So someone please take in consideration everything that has been said, run some test and come with a new more sufisticated thread. At the end we will know the details and everybody will have gained a little knowledge (but as all knowlegde, important) about the world that is called SC2.
Hey guys,
In lots of streams where there are casters, the casters will talk about the Terran having little less scv's but that its pretty even with the mules. I am sure everybody will have heard this in millions of casts. The probolem is that they dont really talk about the precise differences in numbers. That is why I made this easy breakdown, with this everybody who is interesed will know presciely when someone is ahead or not (taking in account the mules)
Everyhing is ingame time.
A Mule costs 50 energy to call down. Collecting 50 energy takes 1 min and 50 seconds (1.15 real time). Every Mule collects 270 minerals. This mean that every 1.50 min Terran can collect 270 minerals with his Mule.
4 harvesters collect in 250 minerals in 1.50 min. This means that protoss needs to have approximately 4 harvesters more than the Terran to be on even footing.
Protoss can Chronoboost every 25 energy. Every Chronoboost gives 50% time reduction for 20 seconds. A probe takes 17 seconds to build. So with one Chronoboost a Protoss can make 2 harvesters. Giving them a lead of 1 harvester comapred to the Terran player. This means that Protoss needs to spend 4 times 25 energy (100 energy) on Chronoboosting his harvesters.
On January 24 2011 23:17 freetgy wrote: Chronoboost makes buildtime faster by 50% not 100% so the buildtime is not cut in half but 2/3 (if you constantly chronoboost)
so 1 Chronoboost on probes gives you a buildtime reduction of 10s meaning if you build 2 Probes: which usually take 2*17=34s it know takes 24s, so the advantage is 10s more mining time by each chronoboost. (taking into account if both players build constant workers)
In a normal opening for Protoss (13 gate 13 gas), he will have collected 100 enegry on his Nexus and the needed 200 minerals for probes to Chronoboost 4 extra probes at the 3.15 min mark.
With A normal opening from Terran (12 rax, 13 gas, 15 Orbital Command), the Terran will have his first Mule at presicely 3.15 min.
Now we have concluded that at the 3.15 mark both the Terran and the Protoss are about even (Terran has his Mule, Protoss has 4 extra probes). The Terran collects 20 minerals more every 1.50 min (everytime he can drop a mule) than the Protoss. The Protoss also needed to pay 200 minerals for his probes + their food costs (lets say 40 min) while the Terran only needed to pay 150 for his orbital command. The Terran is a little bit in the lead, but the Protoss can still Chronoboost out more probes or spend it on other things, while the Terran needs to drop his Mule everytime to stay on even footing.
(obviously the Protoss will need to chronoboost 4 more probes out everytime the Terran makes a new base to stay on even footing)
Conclusion From now on you will know when playing or watching a stream that Protoss needs to be ahead by 4 harvesters for every Orbital Command the Terran has.
Early game both the Terran and the Protoss are on approximately even footing with the ability for the Protoss to get a little bit ahead (income wise) if he chooses to chronoboost more probes than the first 4.
The more Orbital Commands the Terran gets out, the more he will get ahead (army wise) because he will need less workers overal.
Hope you could follow it a little and that I have helped some of you with this little insight
Re-edit: "Mules can harvest together with scv's" This isnt what the original post is about and there is not any explicit knowledge about this subject, but a lot of people want to argue about the fact that Mules can mine together with scv's. I have talked with some all-round Terran players about this subject and will put our opinions in the threat (or is it Thread? :p)
First thing to take in to consideration that this has all to do with the late game. Not early game because if u want to do an 1 base all in or two base all in you will probably not fully saturate your bases anyway.
You need to see your Mules as a core mining unit, not a unit that gives you extra minerals that you wouldnt get (wouldnt need) in a normal game.
You need to think about how many workers you want to make. Most players will have two running basis at a time, this will give a need of 60 workers. (by the time you get your third your first will be mined out etc.) You will have around 3 bases when u get to the 60 harvesters. This means that Terran can make 48 scv's (3 mules are comparable to 12 workers = 12 food), then stop, and have 2 basis at a time running.
Most Terran however will make the full 60 scv's and ues the OC's for scans instead of Mules, or they will take a 4th/5th base sooner and Mule that base instead of using scv's.
An argument to this is that instead of muling from a 4th or 5th base you can just mule from the two running bases. Obviously its a matter of what u like best, but the two running bases will dry up much sooner making you still need to get a 4th/5th base running sooner then your opponent.
So in our opinion being bale to mule and harvest with scv's from one base wont really give you an advantage. The advantage may in the fact that you can have a larger army while mining the same as the opponent or have the same army but mine faster than the opponent in late game.
By the way, Long distance = 8 x 30 per mule ( Will carry a 9th cargo but will die before it returns ) and Short Distance = 9 x 30 per mule // Blue minerals )
it's ~4.0±0.30 workers ( depends on distance to minerals )
Mules last 67.5±0.50 seconds ( 90 if under "Normal" ) at the fastest setting max saturation = 30 workers on a Blue mineral base ( 8 x 3 on minerals and 2 x 3 on gas )
Upon the mule die: 12000 (8 batches of mineral x 1500, 16 batches if that player FE) - (mineral left in batch 1 + min left in batch 2 + .....) = Total minerals harvested until the mules die.
If you use that fomula and track down the first 3 mules, you'll see that Terran's income is always lower than Protoss's EVEN WHEN Terran use mules. If for some reason Terran uses the scan, he will 100% be behind economically.
Of course the advantage of mules is it can harvest the same batch with the scvs, but unless the Terran is being contained or commits to 1,2 base play, he rarely use mules on saturated bases but save energy for scan.
This basically. Someone analyzed about 10+ top level TvP's and the terran was ALWAYS BEHIND IN ECONOMY IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. Luckily our units are more cost effective until there are collosus or storm, that's why every terran wants to end it quick. Also you need to scan and when you drop 8 mules on a gold patch because you are bad. You won't have the production facility's to back it up. So missing a mule is just like missing a larva inject.
1 gate/core FE against a 1 rax FE(wich isn't safe at all whilste 1 gate/core is) 1 gate/core is WAYYYYYYYYYY ahead in eco. It's not even funny how fast a protoss can saturate a base.
1 gate/core is safer than 1 rax FE AND ahead in eco? I am calling bullshit on this until I see some replays or something.
I tested on Nada's replay vs SKS in All-star tournament, it's Lost Temple map if I recall. Nada went FE, and yes, even until the third mules died, Terran was still behind economically. You can search the replay and check it out yourself.
Or you can just pick any top TvP replays in sc2rep.com and test.
On January 25 2011 00:59 Chibalicious wrote: So umm I did read the OP and I'm thinking the same as I think with every about every comparison thread. Why? Why makes this comparison? If you are want to value races against each other you cant point out 2 random things and compare them against each other and conclude what you want about balance or whatever the point may be.
It's like comparing tier 3 units to determine the better lategame race and conclude that zerg is UP since carriers and battlecruisers beats the living shit out of ultras and broodlords, based on the fact that neither of the zerg units can attack air.
Any racial advantage or disadvantage must be taken into the huge unsolvable equation that determines balances and more importantly must be put into context, so I gotta ask once what the bloody deuce is the point of this thread?
I think that the point of the thread was to not to say that MULE ARE OP! or CHRONOBOST IS OP! but simply to indicate that the fare about the same. He merely wanted to bust the myth that surounds this topic.
Thee most important concept with mules is that they represent a big compromise. Terran scouting in the midgame is based heavily around scans so of course, you lose mules every time you scan (it's important to think of each orbital command as containing one continuous mule that can be substituted for a scan or a supply depot or can be temporarily put in "time out" if they are killed). Mules are certainly important in the early game so that you can keep up with protoss or zerg in mineral income, but eventually the main purpose of the orbital command becomes scans and you lose that added income. In the late game is where mules really start to break things, though, because once you are on several bases, the income from mules once again becomes more important as supply from workers becomes more precious. So mules are a really dynamic thing, but in the early an mid game they don't provide you with anything more than you are due (that is, don't put you ahead.) Just for the record, I tested muling in different builds vs different builds as protoss with chronoboost. While it may not be optimal as protoss to always chronoboost probes, if you chronoboost consistently until the point that the mule comes out, your income will be roughly the same as Terran. If you chrono boost past that point, you will get ahead, especially if Terran does not consistently use mules (in favor of scans or whatever).
On January 25 2011 00:15 Brutus wrote: Why can't he allow to only use it on mules? Maybe you need a few scans, but most of them will be on mules.
Ideally you want to use mules as much as possible, but there are so many things that you need to scan. Tech, army comp, denying observers. You can't just sit the whole game and only use Mules.
On January 25 2011 00:15 Brutus wrote: You are saying that it is the protoss' fault for letting someone snipe the building, but when terran loses the mule it's not their fault? Why?
Yes it is the Terran's fault if the Protoss kills the Mule. But it's much easier to kill a mule than to snipe a Protoss structure. My argument here is that Chrono boost isn't really "wasted" if the structure is sniped because it costs only 25 energy, and the chrono can be used elsewhere too. But a Mule can be only used on mineral patches and it's 50 energy, so it may be considered "wasted" 50 energy.
On January 25 2011 00:15 Brutus wrote: Sometimes revealing nothing= something. If you don't see double gas at the expansion of zerg, it means mutas will be delayed or not coming at all. And after all, I think terran will be using energy more on eco than protoss, because they will chrono out upgrades/units too.
I'm saying that if you scan to see Protss' tech and miss (in other words scan at the wrong area), it's wasted energy putting the Terran behind because those 270 potential minerals or information are lost. And don't bring zerg here, I'm not talking about zerg. Yes Terran will be using his energy mostly on mules cuz that's the only option he has, whereas a protoss will start using his ability to speed up warp gate cd, upgrades, etc because he will eventually reach 70~80 workers and can't keep chrono boosting some more workers without hurting himself.
On January 25 2011 00:15 Brutus wrote: Your last paragraph makes no sense. Mule is the best macro mechanic for eco, without a doubt. Larva and cb can be used on something else, which kinda makes up for it.
The last paragraph is based on OP's assumption that Protoss needs to be 4 workers ahead per OC. So assuming both have 80 workers and Terran has 6 OCs, for whatever reason, that means Toss needs to be at 104 workers atleast. I think protoss will be hurting himself if that's the case. Therefore the exaggeration of 50 OCs was brought to say that I don't agree with OP's conclusion.
Also, don't randomly lol-bash somebody next time if you don't understand their opinion or don't agree.
On January 25 2011 00:15 Brutus wrote: Why can't he allow to only use it on mules? Maybe you need a few scans, but most of them will be on mules.
Ideally you want to use mules as much as possible, but there are so many things that you need to scan. Tech, army comp, denying observers. You can't just sit the whole game and only use Mules.
On January 25 2011 00:15 Brutus wrote: You are saying that it is the protoss' fault for letting someone snipe the building, but when terran loses the mule it's not their fault? Why?
Yes it is the Terran's fault if the Protoss kills the Mule. But it's much easier to kill a mule than to snipe a Protoss structure. My argument here is that Chrono boost isn't really "wasted" if the structure is sniped because it costs only 25 energy, and the chrono can be used elsewhere too. But a Mule can be only used on mineral patches and it's 50 energy, so it may be considered "wasted" 50 energy.
On January 25 2011 00:15 Brutus wrote: Sometimes revealing nothing= something. If you don't see double gas at the expansion of zerg, it means mutas will be delayed or not coming at all. And after all, I think terran will be using energy more on eco than protoss, because they will chrono out upgrades/units too.
I'm saying that if you scan to see Protss' tech and miss (in other words scan at the wrong area), it's wasted energy putting the Terran behind because those 270 potential minerals or information are lost. And don't bring zerg here, I'm not talking about zerg. Yes Terran will be using his energy mostly on mules cuz that's the only option he has, whereas a protoss will start using his ability to speed up warp gate cd, upgrades, etc because he will eventually reach 70~80 workers and can't keep chrono boosting some more workers without hurting himself.
On January 25 2011 00:15 Brutus wrote: Your last paragraph makes no sense. Mule is the best macro mechanic for eco, without a doubt. Larva and cb can be used on something else, which kinda makes up for it.
The last paragraph is based on OP's assumption that Protoss needs to be 4 workers ahead per OC. So assuming both have 80 workers and Terran has 6 OCs, for whatever reason, that means Toss needs to be at 104 workers atleast. I think protoss will be hurting himself if that's the case. Therefore the exaggeration of 50 OCs was brought to say that I don't agree with OP's conclusion.
Also, don't randomly lol-bash somebody next time if you don't understand their opinion or don't agree.
There are different ways to scout then scans alone. I never said that you are not allowed to scan, but most of the time it will be mules. I am just saying that there will be more OC energy spend on eco than CB energy on eco.
It's true that sniping a mule is much easier than sniping a building. But it still stands that you should be able to defend your workers. You are not able to "kill" CB energy, but killing probes that are CB can be seen that way. I understand your point that your CB energy can also be used a lot safer by using it on a upgrade or unit producing structure.
Why not bring zerg? You use mules and CB too right in those matchups? And yes if you miss a scan you "lose" 270 minerals, but as I was just pointing out seeing nothing is information too. If you scan his third and see no expo, that's information too right? (did a protoss version just for you)
And about the second part, Mules are not the only option. We just discussed scans, which are vital throughout the game and keep their value just as mules. I think CB loses a lot more value late game, because the impact on unit producing is rather small and as you said CB probes isn't viable late game.
uhhh wtf? yeah 4 extra workers is fine if both players only make 8 workers for the whole game. the problem is mules allow you to get more than 800 mineral income per base which kind of makes the protoss expo requir almost same amount of workers that the terran has at BOTH BASES to be even and the protoss has to actually invest minerals in the probes. have you never a seen a replay where the protoss has 20-25 workers per base and the terran has ~16 and is down one base and they have equal income?? why does this thread exist
edit: not to mention a 200/200 army is more harvestor heavy for the protoss and after 4+ oc the t barely needs scvs to resupply losses
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
If you're nog going to be reasonable in your arguments please don't post, it's crappy biased posting like this that gets me really annoyed (and subsequently banned).
I know you want to keep pretending MULEs are the most imbalanced thing in the world, but when you're even going to ignore the fact that an OC cost 150 minerals and 35 seconds of not building SCV's you're really coming across unreasonable. Start contributing and stop the irrational outcries of imbalance (yes, you ARE claiming imbalance; posts that contain some form of the words "not saying it's imba, but" are always poorly concealed balance complaints. You also call "bs" on OP's calculations on CB keeping Protoss economy equal or ahead to Terran's without any other argument than it being "bs").
@OP: Great to see that someone takes the time to test things like these so we can bust the popular MULE myths. It's bad enough that people think throwing down 8 MULEs at a time is beneficial.
On January 25 2011 02:38 Alejandrisha wrote: uhhh wtf? yeah 4 extra workers is fine if both players only make 8 workers for the whole game. the problem is mules allow you to get more than 800 mineral income per base which kind of makes the protoss expo requir almost same amount of workers that the terran has at BOTH BASES to be even and the protoss has to actually invest minerals in the probes. have you never a seen a replay where the protoss has 20-25 workers per base and the terran has ~16 and is down one base and they have equal income?? why does this thread exist
This thread exists especially for people like you who want to cling on to the notion of MULEs being overpowered. OP delivers a completely rational and fair comparison of the MULE and chronoboost to show that MULEs aren't a source of imbalance in this MU. Lots of Protoss coming here to claim otherwise, but none have made any good arguments as to why MULEs would be a superior economical mechanic. That you spent minerals on probes is a moot point since Terran invest 150 minerals and 35 seconds of non-SCV production for an OC. Basically the main advantage MULEs give is that they stack on top of SCV's so you can get 4 SCV's worth of extra income on 1 base. That means Toss should take their expansion a bit sooner than Terran to prevent heavy oversaturation. On the flipside, Terran gets to throw down only 1 MULE every time whilst the benefits of CB keeps stacking. Scanning and sniping off MULEs will also negate the economic boost that MULEs give.
Whether you think it's a superior mechanic or not, I find the MULE rather uninteresting and devoid of tactical depth. When I play Toss I can fit CB usage into my playstyle, whereas when I play Terran it's just throwing down a MULE every 50 seconds (since scanning and supply drop are both inferior).
I don't think this is an issue that can be solved by theorycrafting. There are too many variables to consider like how many buildings the terran builds and when, when is gas taken and with how many scvs. When are the players expanding, etc. You're never gonna get to a point where you're considering a valid ingame scenario. But on the other hand it's not neccessary. Blizzard has done a fantastic job balancing these two macro mechanics.
It has been my experience that when i as a terran, play economically comparable to my opponent protoss (like noone cuts eco, both expo at the same time, no eco damage), that we both have the same income. If i watch the replay, i can see that the protoss is usually 4-5 workers ahead of me per base, which is about equal to the income of a mule (4.5-5.3 worker equivalents depending on saturation).
There really is no imbalance here (at least not income wise), for neither party. Other factors, of course, play a role. Mules cost no supply, a terran can stay a few extra seconds on one base, chronoboost can be used on important upgrades, mules can be discarded for scans, etc. These factors, however, do not change the fact that chronoboost and mules are economically almost equal.
i never said it was imbalanced. i just think it is a dumb mechanic that encourages 1 base play because you can squeeze out money much faster than a player who did not expand and against a player who does expand relatively fast, the terran gets equal or slightly less income while having invested significantly less resourses in harvestors.
On January 25 2011 03:34 Alejandrisha wrote: i never said it was imbalanced. i just think it is a dumb mechanic that encourages 1 base play because you can squeeze out money much faster than a player who did not expand and against a player who does expand relatively fast, the terran gets equal or slightly less income while having invested significantly less resourses in harvestors.
On January 25 2011 03:34 Alejandrisha wrote: i never said it was imbalanced. i just think it is a dumb mechanic that encourages 1 base play because you can squeeze out money much faster than a player who did not expand and against a player who does expand relatively fast, the terran gets equal or slightly less income while having invested significantly less resourses in harvestors.
Toss needs to be up 4 probes to get equal income as a MULE'ing Terran, that's 200 minerals. An OC costs 150 minerals plus 35 seconds of CC downtime, do you even read anything we post?
your whole idea of 4 probes is absolutely ridiculous. workers don't mine in a vacuum. maybe you are saying 4 probes mining if they are completely alone on a base? when you add the mineral income that 4 probes that are mining in a vacuum to a base that is already saturated, that is more than 4 probes, even infinitely more probes since there is a cap. I am reading everything you are typing but missing the logic, perhaps.
On January 25 2011 03:51 Alejandrisha wrote: your whole idea of 4 probes is absolutely ridiculous. workers don't mine in a vacuum. maybe you are saying 4 probes mining if they are completely alone on a base? when you add the mineral income that 4 probes that are mining in a vacuum to a base that is already saturated, that is more than 4 probes, even infinitely more probes since there is a cap. I am reading everything you are typing but missing the logic, perhaps.
Let me state once more that most Terrans dont like muling from completely saturated bases. And for when u come with the one base argument. when someone does a one base (or two base) all in he most likely wont have a totally saturated base. If he has a totally saturated base something is wrong with the timing .. the opponent will have an good 2 base eco running already.
On January 25 2011 03:49 Blurzz wrote: I think you forgot to put in the main post how SCV's have to stay with a structure to build it while probes just place it then go back to mining.
Ye it has been mentioned before. If someone wants to make the "simple breakdown" a "complex breakdown" I encourage it fully, but I dont feel like doing that. Maybe another time.
On January 25 2011 03:51 Alejandrisha wrote: your whole idea of 4 probes is absolutely ridiculous. workers don't mine in a vacuum. maybe you are saying 4 probes mining if they are completely alone on a base? when you add the mineral income that 4 probes that are mining in a vacuum to a base that is already saturated, that is more than 4 probes, even infinitely more probes since there is a cap. I am reading everything you are typing but missing the logic, perhaps.
After spending the first 4 chronoboosts on probes a Protoss base won't be saturated; I know this since I actually try all races for a fair comparison instead of calling everything that I don't like ridiculous. If your main is getting oversaturated you expand, that is the point to expanding.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
It's impossible to compare either, both serve different purposes, you would have to compare the OC to the nexus though, the OC is more like the SCV. It costs some money, and then generates money back over time, like a harvester.
The OC though also calls down supply, and scans. It's just hard to compare, MULEs allow oversaturation, repair call-down and that stuff. Chronoboost is also of course a spell with infinite versatility. Both are different, and hard to compare.
I think MULES should be on cooldown and everything would be great. Would require Terran players to hit the timing in order to get the bonus and they would still be good. Ridiculousness like dropping 16 MULES on Gold wouldn't occur and all these caster making fun of MULES while looking at the income tab could finally shut up.
On January 25 2011 03:51 Alejandrisha wrote: your whole idea of 4 probes is absolutely ridiculous. workers don't mine in a vacuum. maybe you are saying 4 probes mining if they are completely alone on a base? when you add the mineral income that 4 probes that are mining in a vacuum to a base that is already saturated, that is more than 4 probes, even infinitely more probes since there is a cap. I am reading everything you are typing but missing the logic, perhaps.
This is actually really important: 2 workers on a mineral patch gets you very close to 100% more minerals than 1 worker, but 3 workers on a mineral patch gets you (on average) around 20% more than 2 workers (linear progression would be 50%). Those are pretty significant diminishing returns that Mules aren't subject to.That Mule is worth way more than 4 additional Probes if you are over 2 Probes per patch, and this is completely disregarding the fact that a Mule is more valuable than an infinite number of Probes past saturation (strictly in terms of economy).
On January 24 2011 23:24 Jermstuddog wrote: The biggest advantages of the MULE are being talked about in this thread, but weren't mentioned in the OP at all.
-MULEs can harvest minerals on top of SCVs
This means a fully saturated base of 24 workers on minerals, 6 in each gas is FAR better for a Terran than any other race. But acting like this only happens at 24 workers is already wrong. From the very first MULE you drop, it should be dropped on the closest mineral patch, and once you start getting 11+ workers on minerals (close patches can only fit 2 workers), each worker after that starts becoming less and less of an economic gain.
MULEs completely ignore this and just mine right over the top of whatever SCV is on that patch.
MULEs give an even bigger income % per drop if you have more than 11 workers on the mineral line.
-MULEs don't take supply
You say that Protoss player spent his 200 minerals and gets the consistant probes, that makes him even with the 150 mineral cost of the OC. But what you forgot was the 50 minerals worth of pylon that you took up. This adds to the awesome of the MULE from the very beginning of the game. So while the other races get to spend 250 minerals on equivalent harvesting (remember, it's not really equivalent because we have more than 11 workers on the mineral line) Terran can put that money into another Barracks and get himself even further ahead in the supply count.
This could get even worse in the late-game, though I haven't seen anything to that effect just yet. Supply is hard capped at 200. A Terran could build 10 OCs, live off MULE harvesting, and add those 40 supply worth of SCVs to their army. The best part? The OCs can be anywhere on the map, and they give supply to boot, 1.375 depots worth to be exact, not a bad deal at all.
-Terran will eventually have to spend his energy on scans!
Who said that's ever required? Does Terran not have Ravens, Turrets, EMP, and Sensor Towers all to help with their scouting, zoning and detection? Not even counting scans, Terran has twice as much detection capabilities as either of their opponents. Scans are used because they're just hands down better than the rest. Scans aren't a detriment to MULE income, they're a bonus to Terran awesome and used completely by choice. Forced scans only exist because Terrans can CHOOSE not to use the other methods of detection that are so required by the other races.
And my personal favorite that nobody seems to pay attention to:
-MULEs can't be harrassed!!
"OMG what? But mutas kill my MULEs ALL DAY!!!
Or... at least they did for that 90 seconds... then I just called down another one... cuz I got skills like that."
That's right, Kill 4 workers, you cost your opponent 200 more minerals + worker production time (or army production for Zerg) + mining time that can never be made up. Kill a MULE, you cost your opponent 50 energy + mining time that can never be made up. One of these things cost less than the other. I'll let you try to figure that out.
TLDR: Chrono is OP
I've read everything and agreed, 100%, with you up until the end, "TLDR: Chrono is OP" now I don't even know that if you were trolling or not because I was under the impression you were making an argument that Mules are better which I agreed. But if you were kidding then I apologize and let's move on.
On January 24 2011 22:04 Deckkie wrote: In a normal opening for Protoss (13 gate 13 gas), he will have collected 100 enegry on his Nexus and the needed 200 minerals for probes to Chronoboost 4 extra probes at the 3.15 min mark.
With A normal opening from Terran (12 rax, 13 gas, 15 Orbital Command), the Terran will have his first Mule at presicely 3.15 min.
Lost a lot of credibility with me, here. 13 gate 13 gas is nowhere close to a normal opening. 12gate 14gas is 13gate 15gas is even 13gate 14gas is.
I suggest a little more understanding of common Protoss build orders before you start making generalizations about how much energy the Nexus has and the minerals required. You start from very questionable premises.
On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote: MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
Did u even read the OP??
Yes. I'm saying that what op is saying is not accurate. Because P has to spend 200 extra minerals per OC to stay even in income.
Orbital commands are not free.
150 mins is nothing in comparison to a free 270 mins every 90 seconds. Heck, the first MULE you drops gets you that back.
And I guess I really worded my other post really bad, and didn't make another point I meant to make lol.
P has to spend 200 minerals and chronoboost to stay even in income with a t, while this also deprives him of being able to chrono upgrades and units, which will put him behind in the unit department. Pure math-wise, I know what he's saying, but T doesn't have to use his "economy ability" to keep his army up to date, he's free to spam MULEs all game, because they don't affect army. While early game, if P doesn't use chrono on things like warpgates, then they can be pretty behind in army, as it kills most of their early attack timings.
But it isn't 200 minerals straight away, it is 50 in a 10/15 second period. So the first probe is mining 3 more probe building time's life, the second 2, the third 1.
Chronoboost also comes in 25 energy time slots, thus allowing two for every mule/scan/drop. (though drop is largely ignored/hated these days).
I do think mules in their current state are very powerful, and the fact they aren't affected by scv's is a huge benefit. I think just removing that could really change things.
I guess you don't watch much GSL, truly mineral strapped timing build revolve around Supply drop. Not to mention the immense boon supply drop is after a doom drop....
Mules are always a high priority unit when you harass the mineral line; What's the terran going to do? Tech up to EMP and hit the nexus every 30 seconds (it's been done). The Argument can go either way, which makes it pretty damn balanced for the game Sc2 is.
On January 24 2011 22:04 Deckkie wrote: In a normal opening for Protoss (13 gate 13 gas), he will have collected 100 enegry on his Nexus and the needed 200 minerals for probes to Chronoboost 4 extra probes at the 3.15 min mark.
With A normal opening from Terran (12 rax, 13 gas, 15 Orbital Command), the Terran will have his first Mule at presicely 3.15 min.
Lost a lot of credibility with me, here. 13 gate 13 gas is nowhere close to a normal opening. 12gate 14gas is 13gate 15gas is even 13gate 14gas is.
I suggest a little more understanding of common Protoss build orders before you start making generalizations about how much energy the Nexus has and the minerals required. You start from very questionable premises.
yes, sorry, I meant 13 gate 15 gas. it still comes down to the same thing...
Nobody has stated anything about quickly oversaturating the existing base(s) with CB so a new expo can be saturated a lot quicker. This, along woth gateboosting is the mainadvantage of CB in my opinion.
This thread sucks at comparing the macro mechanics actually. Way to few parameters accounted for.
On January 24 2011 22:36 siri wrote: mules are good because they can harvest simultaneously with scv's, which means you can increase your mineral income after the 24 worker saturation while chronoboost lets you saturate your bases faster with probes
so in equal bases, that are already saturated, mules gives you a mineral income advantage while chronoboost is good if you have bases that are still to be saturated
thats all you need to know
although, at that point CB can be used on producing useful units/upgrades. If OC energy is used on anything else (scans) the advantage is wasted.
no offense, but I keep hearing, oh well terran has to use scans. NO terran does not HAVE TO USE SCANS, you can make an expensive detection unit like the other races. And I'd argue the information you can learn with a scan can be worth >300 minerals, especially during the mid point of the game where scouting is difficult.
also OP's math is super fuzzy, mules bring in either 270 or 300 depending on where you put them, and 250 =/= 300(especially if you keep adding this up over the 20 minute period of n average gaqme), not to mention the supply usage the extra probes take. CB =/= mules economy wise, however CB is great for making robo units and researching stuff, but protoss upgrades take a long time in general since they are expected to be chrono boosted....
On January 25 2011 19:16 TheGiftedApe wrote:CB =/= mules economy wise, however CB is great for making robo units and researching stuff, but protoss upgrades take a long time in general since they are expected to be chrono boosted....
This may be true for protoss specific upgrades but at least weapon/armor upgrades take exactly as long for protoss as for the other races.
Also, about the scan/detection issue: Terran mobile detection (raven) costs at least DOUBLE the gas as the detector for other races. It is also higher in the tech path than for other races (t3 as compared to t2). Sure we get nice extra abilies with the raven but if we just need a detector we have to pay for those regardless. So terrans actually need scans as a means of early detection. Otherwise a fast dt rush would hit a terran before he can get a detection unit out, how stupid would that be ? Imagine a terran could be at your base with cloaked banshees before you could build an observer ...
On January 25 2011 19:16 TheGiftedApe wrote:CB =/= mules economy wise, however CB is great for making robo units and researching stuff, but protoss upgrades take a long time in general since they are expected to be chrono boosted....
This may be true for protoss specific upgrades but at least weapon/armor upgrades take exactly as long for protoss as for the other races.
Also, about the scan/detection issue: Terran mobile detection (raven) costs at least DOUBLE the gas as the detector for other races. It is also higher in the tech path than for other races (t3 as compared to t2). Sure we get nice extra abilies with the raven but if we just need a detector we have to pay for those regardless. So terrans actually need scans as a means of early detection. Otherwise a fast dt rush would hit a terran before he can get a detection unit out, how stupid would that be ? Imagine a terran could be at your base with cloaked banshees before you could build an observer ...
U can get a raven out by the time a dt gets out btw. (u can also get turrets b4 dts pop out)I'm not saying CB isn't great.....I also think protoss ground upgrades are OP, especially since our upgrades apply to more units. But NO MATTER WHAT, it will never make up for the fact that Mules are better than CB economy-wise. And really mules should not be compared to chonro boosted probes.(especially since zerg should be apart of the equation.)
On January 25 2011 19:41 TheGiftedApe wrote:But NO MATTER WHAT, it will never make up for the fact that Mules are better than CB economy-wise. And really mules should not be compared to chonro boosted probes.(especially since zerg should be apart of the equation.)
Before you make such a statement, you should actually proof it. I don't care if you do it by accurate theorycrafting (which is almost impossible given the factors to consider) or by empirical testing. I have done the latter and i arrived at the conclusion that neither mules nor cb are giving an economical advantage but rather that they are about equal.
So please, feel free to prove me wrong. Play a TvP game where neither player cuts workers orkills the other players workers and play standard builds. Also make they expo at the same time. Then look at the income.
On January 25 2011 19:41 TheGiftedApe wrote:But NO MATTER WHAT, it will never make up for the fact that Mules are better than CB economy-wise. And really mules should not be compared to chonro boosted probes.(especially since zerg should be apart of the equation.)
Before you make such a statement, you should actually proof it. I don't care if you do it by accurate theorycrafting (which is almost impossible given the factors to consider) or by empirical testing. I have done the latter and i arrived at the conclusion that neither mules nor cb are giving an economical advantage but rather that they are about equal.
So please, feel free to prove me wrong. Play a TvP game where neither player cuts workers orkills the other players workers and play standard builds. Also make they expo at the same time. Then look at the income.
On January 25 2011 21:18 dolpiff wrote: sorry didnt read last 2 pages as i'm at work atm, so if it hasn't been posted yet;
didn't OP forgot about the cost to transform command center into OC? and also the time it takes, during which you can't build any scv?
to that you also need to add the time off mining for scvs when building vs probes.. i think all in all T & P eco bonii offset each other
Yes, I did indeed forget anout the scv's not mining while they build stuff. And to me its obvious that something basic as income will be the same for each race. In that I have perfect trust in Blizzard. The post is more about inshight in how its approximantly the same, so that one watches a replay he has a little more insight knowledge in the Mule vs CB.
You have to pay for the probes, but mules only have an initial cost of 150 (disregarding the other bonuses you get from the OC). Mules let you supersaturate and cost no supply.
The second thing is that Protoss rarely uses chronoboosts solely on probes. From what I've seen in PvTs, only the 3 or 4 chronos go toward probes. Protoss research/build times are so long that chronoboost is absolutely needed to stay even with Terran tech research and production. Also, Protoss research and unit costs are far more than Terran's. Just getting a single templar costs half a geyser (give or take).
You have to pay for the probes, but mules only have an initial cost of 150 (disregarding the other bonuses you get from the OC). Mules let you supersaturate and cost no supply.
The second thing is that Protoss rarely uses chronoboosts solely on probes. From what I've seen in PvTs, only the 3 or 4 chronos go toward probes. Protoss research/build times are so long that chronoboost is absolutely needed to stay even with Terran tech research and production. Also, Protoss research and unit costs are far more than Terran's. Just getting a single templar costs half a geyser (give or take).
I wonder who told you this. updrages take for both Terran and Protoss the same time (1: 160, 2: 190, 3: 220). Given the fact that Terran usually has more production structures than Protoss, I would say that Terran makes units slower than Protoss does, at least cost wise they do.
You can't disect one part of the two completely races and compare them saying which is better so easily. At least not with a meaningfull result as even though one might seem better it won't say anything about the matchup since there are so many other factors.
Disregarding this and comparing the 2 in a sense, ie. which would i rather have, then i would definately have to say mules.
Chronoboost can indeed come out even with the first OC constantly Muling as you can have 4 probes more then terran by the time OC finishes. You will run into saturation very quickly though making those extra 4 probes much less efficient UNLESS you expand. Terran however doesn't care with his mules for expanding, he can use them whenever he wants. This gives an inherent advantage in the fact that 1 base vs 1 base games are always in favor of terran economy wise. A terran base with a OC and 22 scv's (16 minerals 6 gas) will mine way more then a 30 probe protoss base. Mules can also freely be used everywhere making it easier to balance out gather rates, ie your first base will mine out slower because you can mule at your natural. Gold is also much better with mules.
Chronoboost favors a strategy with fast expanding and heavy gas usage (to not be saturated so much) whereas MULE's are great regardless of strat.
Ok, first of all if u say 4 probes per orbital you must put half of pylon also, which is 50 more minerals. so 150vs 250 minerals.. 100 more for protoss. And i don`t think the ppl on the stream are complaining about how OP is mulle in the start of the game, because as u posted up here.. it is not. But mulle is very strong on mid (gold base) - late games and you know that. You cannot compare mulles with chronoboost at all, when you talk about economy. Chrono is good formaking units and upgrades faster but not so good for economy advantage. There is no big imbalance in sc2, terran is a bit ahead but not so much. And btw for chrono you also have reactor, which is again really nice to have during all the game.
I guess because of marauders for a toss is as hard to beat a terran like for a zerg to beat a protoss, but this is other topic, but anyway, not imposible to beat. I guess terran doesn't have any hard matchups but this because the game is new, even without any further changes the game will balance itself. Peace
Hm. If you can drop 6 MULEs on a gold expo that means that you didnt use them previously and thus was behind. I can also guarantee that you dont have a) the production buildings or b) the gas to quickly turn that gold into useful units. The slight advantage is that you will have extra minerals in the bank for a while, and can worry about other more urgent matters...
On January 26 2011 00:22 jarod wrote: Ok, first of all if u say 4 probes per orbital you must put half of pylon also, which is 50 more minerals. so 150vs 250 minerals.. 100 more for protoss. And i don`t think the ppl on the stream are complaining about how OP is mulle in the start of the game, because as u posted up here.. it is not. But mulle is very strong on mid (gold base) - late games and you know that. You cannot compare mulles with chronoboost at all, when you talk about economy. Chrono is good formaking units and upgrades faster but not so good for economy advantage. There is no big imbalance in sc2, terran is a bit ahead but not so much. And btw for chrono you also have reactor, which is again really nice to have during all the game.
I guess because of marauders for a toss is as hard to beat a terran like for a zerg to beat a protoss, but this is other topic, but anyway, not imposible to beat. I guess terran doesn't have any hard matchups but this because the game is new, even without any further changes the game will balance itself. Peace
That's just a bad argument an dit will lead nowhere.
If we're going to play it like that, I could say that Barracks is a prerequisite to morph an Orbital Command and the Supply Depot is a prerequisite for the Barracks. So an OC ACTUALLY costs 150 + 250 = 400 minerals. Not to mention the lost mining time for SCV's building those structures AND the loss of 2.1 SCV's while morphing the OC.
Arguing like that is just silly and proves nothing.
Claiming that "Terran doesn't really have any hard matchups" kinda shows how objective you are.
On January 24 2011 22:04 Deckkie wrote: Protoss can Chronoboost every 25 energy. Every Chronoboost gives 50% time reduction for 20 seconds. A probe takes 17 seconds to build. So with one Chronoboost a Protoss can make 2 harvesters. Giving them a lead of 1 harvester comapred to the Terran player. This means that Protoss needs to spend 4 times 25 energy (100 energy) on Chronoboosting his harvesters.
On January 24 2011 23:17 freetgy wrote: Chronoboost makes buildtime faster by 50% not 100% so the buildtime is not cut in half but 2/3 (if you constantly chronoboost)
so 1 Chronoboost on probes gives you a buildtime reduction of 10s meaning if you build 2 Probes: which usually take 2*17=34s it know takes 24s, so the advantage is 10s more mining time by each chronoboost. (taking into account if both players build constant workers)
It takes ~40 seconds to gain the energy for chronoboost (working off of queen energy regen rate 0.625 energy/sec). First probe arrives 5.666 sec earlier. Second probe arrives [5.666 + 4.333] sec earlier. Every future probe will also arrive [5.666 + 4.333] seconds earlier until the next chrono boost where the third CB probe arrives [5.666 + 4.333 + 0.333] sec earlier with the fourth arriving [5.666 + 4.333 + 0.333 + 5.666] sec earlier. You can't just say, "the advantage is 10s more mining time," because the advantage is cumulative per probe.
Time 0:40, begin CB and probe. CB Probe #1: spawns at 0:51, +5.666 sec mining time CB Probe #2: spawns at 1:04, +10.00 sec mining time Time 1:20, begin 2nd CB. CB Probe #3: spawns at 1:21, +10.33 sec mining time CB Probe #4: spawns at 1:32, +16.00 sec mining time CB Probe #5: spawns at 1:45, +20.00 sec mining time Time 2:00, begin 3rd CB. CB Probe #6: spawns at 2:01, +20.66 sec mining time CB Probe #7: spawns at 2:13, +26.33 sec mining time CB Probe #8: spawns at 2:26, +30.00 sec mining time
Assuming a mining rate of 1 (actual value ~0.95 min/sec with 2 per patch), the probes listed here will generate roughly 130 extra minerals. If at this point you stop CB'ing probes, all future probes from this nexus (assuming constant production) will still have a bonus 30 seconds of mining time.
The mule ability generates minerals at a rate of ~270 minerals per 80 seconds or 3.375 min/sec. With 3 CB's, the probes gain extra mining time which equates to 130 minerals for the first 176 seconds and 30 minerals per ~13.5 seconds. This works out to be roughly 3.2 min/sec. With 4 probe CB's the rate becomes ~4 min/sec.
CB starts earlier, has a higher income potential off 1 nexus/OC, but once you stop constant probe production / reach saturation the OC takes the lead because it's income is not dependent on the number of mineral patches available. In the end game, the mule is better for income, but the CB is better for everything else.
You have to pay for the probes, but mules only have an initial cost of 150 (disregarding the other bonuses you get from the OC). Mules let you supersaturate and cost no supply.
The second thing is that Protoss rarely uses chronoboosts solely on probes. From what I've seen in PvTs, only the 3 or 4 chronos go toward probes. Protoss research/build times are so long that chronoboost is absolutely needed to stay even with Terran tech research and production. Also, Protoss research and unit costs are far more than Terran's. Just getting a single templar costs half a geyser (give or take).
I wonder who told you this. updrages take for both Terran and Protoss the same time (1: 160, 2: 190, 3: 220). Given the fact that Terran usually has more production structures than Protoss, I would say that Terran makes units slower than Protoss does, at least cost wise they do.
Talking more about stim/conc/combat shields, which come significantly faster than any other Protoss upgrades due to being cheap (250/250 for the entire set) and available much earlier.
On January 26 2011 00:22 jarod wrote: Ok, first of all if u say 4 probes per orbital you must put half of pylon also, which is 50 more minerals. so 150vs 250 minerals.. 100 more for protoss. And i don`t think the ppl on the stream are complaining about how OP is mulle in the start of the game, because as u posted up here.. it is not. But mulle is very strong on mid (gold base) - late games and you know that. You cannot compare mulles with chronoboost at all, when you talk about economy. Chrono is good formaking units and upgrades faster but not so good for economy advantage. There is no big imbalance in sc2, terran is a bit ahead but not so much. And btw for chrono you also have reactor, which is again really nice to have during all the game.
I guess because of marauders for a toss is as hard to beat a terran like for a zerg to beat a protoss, but this is other topic, but anyway, not imposible to beat. I guess terran doesn't have any hard matchups but this because the game is new, even without any further changes the game will balance itself. Peace
That's just a bad argument an dit will lead nowhere.
If we're going to play it like that, I could say that Barracks is a prerequisite to morph an Orbital Command and the Supply Depot is a prerequisite for the Barracks. So an OC ACTUALLY costs 150 + 250 = 400 minerals. Not to mention the lost mining time for SCV's building those structures AND the loss of 2.1 SCV's while morphing the OC.
Arguing like that is just silly and proves nothing.
Claiming that "Terran doesn't really have any hard matchups" kinda shows how objective you are.
You're going to build a barracks and supply depot no matter what. So that point is moot. However, for 4 probes you absolutely need half a pylon because without a pylon, you'll be blocked from further production. That pylon is a necessary cost no matter how you look at it. For mules, supply concerns don't exist.
You have to pay for the probes, but mules only have an initial cost of 150 (disregarding the other bonuses you get from the OC). Mules let you supersaturate and cost no supply.
The second thing is that Protoss rarely uses chronoboosts solely on probes. From what I've seen in PvTs, only the 3 or 4 chronos go toward probes. Protoss research/build times are so long that chronoboost is absolutely needed to stay even with Terran tech research and production. Also, Protoss research and unit costs are far more than Terran's. Just getting a single templar costs half a geyser (give or take).
I wonder who told you this. updrages take for both Terran and Protoss the same time (1: 160, 2: 190, 3: 220). Given the fact that Terran usually has more production structures than Protoss, I would say that Terran makes units slower than Protoss does, at least cost wise they do.
Talking more about stim/conc/combat shields, which come significantly faster than any other Protoss upgrades due to being cheap (250/250 for the entire set) and available much earlier.
On January 26 2011 00:22 jarod wrote: Ok, first of all if u say 4 probes per orbital you must put half of pylon also, which is 50 more minerals. so 150vs 250 minerals.. 100 more for protoss. And i don`t think the ppl on the stream are complaining about how OP is mulle in the start of the game, because as u posted up here.. it is not. But mulle is very strong on mid (gold base) - late games and you know that. You cannot compare mulles with chronoboost at all, when you talk about economy. Chrono is good formaking units and upgrades faster but not so good for economy advantage. There is no big imbalance in sc2, terran is a bit ahead but not so much. And btw for chrono you also have reactor, which is again really nice to have during all the game.
I guess because of marauders for a toss is as hard to beat a terran like for a zerg to beat a protoss, but this is other topic, but anyway, not imposible to beat. I guess terran doesn't have any hard matchups but this because the game is new, even without any further changes the game will balance itself. Peace
That's just a bad argument an dit will lead nowhere.
If we're going to play it like that, I could say that Barracks is a prerequisite to morph an Orbital Command and the Supply Depot is a prerequisite for the Barracks. So an OC ACTUALLY costs 150 + 250 = 400 minerals. Not to mention the lost mining time for SCV's building those structures AND the loss of 2.1 SCV's while morphing the OC.
Arguing like that is just silly and proves nothing.
Claiming that "Terran doesn't really have any hard matchups" kinda shows how objective you are.
You're going to build a barracks and supply depot no matter what. So that point is moot. However, for 4 probes you absolutely need half a pylon because without a pylon, you'll be blocked from further production. That pylon is a necessary cost no matter how you look at it. For mules, supply concerns don't exist.
I agree with your point about the barracks and supply depot, but you are simply wrong about counting the cost of pylons in a chrono boosting scenario. That pylon, and subsequent pylons, will be built regardless of CB'ing status. The only change between CB'ing probes and not with regards to pylon necessity is that you must build the pylon earlier. Of course there is the hurdle of the first pylon to get over, but Terran's are in a similar situation so this does not seem relevant.
obs: this was posted by Deckie up there, just wanted to make sure more people get to see it if they miss his post.
ps: this is of course considering that toss won't chronobost any tech/army and that the terran won't scan.
You may argue that you normaly use more chronoboost on your army, but this is a play style, not a necessity. In the same way, a terran might need/want to scan more.
In the extreme late game tho I have to agree with the MULE haters that it gives the terran an edge, as he can make a lot of orbitals and mine from that, increasing his army size.
You have to pay for the probes, but mules only have an initial cost of 150 (disregarding the other bonuses you get from the OC). Mules let you supersaturate and cost no supply.
The second thing is that Protoss rarely uses chronoboosts solely on probes. From what I've seen in PvTs, only the 3 or 4 chronos go toward probes. Protoss research/build times are so long that chronoboost is absolutely needed to stay even with Terran tech research and production. Also, Protoss research and unit costs are far more than Terran's. Just getting a single templar costs half a geyser (give or take).
I wonder who told you this. updrages take for both Terran and Protoss the same time (1: 160, 2: 190, 3: 220). Given the fact that Terran usually has more production structures than Protoss, I would say that Terran makes units slower than Protoss does, at least cost wise they do.
Talking more about stim/conc/combat shields, which come significantly faster than any other Protoss upgrades due to being cheap (250/250 for the entire set) and available much earlier.
This arnt upgrades we can get, it are upgrades we must get to make the units cost efficient.
p.s. Put some thank you in the OP for everybody who did some constructive thinking!
You have to pay for the probes, but mules only have an initial cost of 150 (disregarding the other bonuses you get from the OC). Mules let you supersaturate and cost no supply.
The second thing is that Protoss rarely uses chronoboosts solely on probes. From what I've seen in PvTs, only the 3 or 4 chronos go toward probes. Protoss research/build times are so long that chronoboost is absolutely needed to stay even with Terran tech research and production. Also, Protoss research and unit costs are far more than Terran's. Just getting a single templar costs half a geyser (give or take).
I wonder who told you this. updrages take for both Terran and Protoss the same time (1: 160, 2: 190, 3: 220). Given the fact that Terran usually has more production structures than Protoss, I would say that Terran makes units slower than Protoss does, at least cost wise they do.
Talking more about stim/conc/combat shields, which come significantly faster than any other Protoss upgrades due to being cheap (250/250 for the entire set) and available much earlier.
On January 26 2011 00:22 jarod wrote: Ok, first of all if u say 4 probes per orbital you must put half of pylon also, which is 50 more minerals. so 150vs 250 minerals.. 100 more for protoss. And i don`t think the ppl on the stream are complaining about how OP is mulle in the start of the game, because as u posted up here.. it is not. But mulle is very strong on mid (gold base) - late games and you know that. You cannot compare mulles with chronoboost at all, when you talk about economy. Chrono is good formaking units and upgrades faster but not so good for economy advantage. There is no big imbalance in sc2, terran is a bit ahead but not so much. And btw for chrono you also have reactor, which is again really nice to have during all the game.
I guess because of marauders for a toss is as hard to beat a terran like for a zerg to beat a protoss, but this is other topic, but anyway, not imposible to beat. I guess terran doesn't have any hard matchups but this because the game is new, even without any further changes the game will balance itself. Peace
That's just a bad argument an dit will lead nowhere.
If we're going to play it like that, I could say that Barracks is a prerequisite to morph an Orbital Command and the Supply Depot is a prerequisite for the Barracks. So an OC ACTUALLY costs 150 + 250 = 400 minerals. Not to mention the lost mining time for SCV's building those structures AND the loss of 2.1 SCV's while morphing the OC.
Arguing like that is just silly and proves nothing.
Claiming that "Terran doesn't really have any hard matchups" kinda shows how objective you are.
You're going to build a barracks and supply depot no matter what. So that point is moot. However, for 4 probes you absolutely need half a pylon because without a pylon, you'll be blocked from further production. That pylon is a necessary cost no matter how you look at it. For mules, supply concerns don't exist.
I agree with your point about the barracks and supply depot, but you are simply wrong about counting the cost of pylons in a chrono boosting scenario. That pylon, and subsequent pylons, will be built regardless of CB'ing status. The only change between CB'ing probes and not with regards to pylon necessity is that you must build the pylon earlier. Of course there is the hurdle of the first pylon to get over, but Terran's are in a similar situation so this does not seem relevant.
The supply has to be paid for somehow. It's a convenient measure to say that 4 probes = half a pylon, even if it's not strictly true. It's a comparison that MULEs don't cost any supply, theoretical or otherwise.
There are only three advantages to having MULES/the OC 1. They can be used to oversaturate minerals 2. Unlike Chronoboost, if you store them up, you can use 4 of them simultaneuously and have a boost in economy. 3. You MAY purchase a scan for 270. Yes it's a purchase because you use mules to catch up to the protoss after: worker harassment, using your workers to make buildings, chronoboosted probes, scvs not built while you're building the OC, money spent on the OC HOWEVER, they also have the following disadvantage in comparison 1. Chronoboost can be used to force army units out of production facilities 2. In some situations, you MUST use a scan instead of a mule therefore putting you at an economic disadvantage 3. You can forget to MULE and if your OC hits the 200/200 mark you're at an economic disadvantage, but once the protoss can chronoboosted his extra 4 workers out, he will constantly have the extra income.
On January 26 2011 00:03 Markwerf wrote: This comparison is quite useless.
You can't disect one part of the two completely races and compare them saying which is better so easily. At least not with a meaningfull result as even though one might seem better it won't say anything about the matchup since there are so many other factors.
Disregarding this and comparing the 2 in a sense, ie. which would i rather have, then i would definately have to say mules.
Chronoboost can indeed come out even with the first OC constantly Muling as you can have 4 probes more then terran by the time OC finishes. You will run into saturation very quickly though making those extra 4 probes much less efficient UNLESS you expand. Terran however doesn't care with his mules for expanding, he can use them whenever he wants. This gives an inherent advantage in the fact that 1 base vs 1 base games are always in favor of terran economy wise. A terran base with a OC and 22 scv's (16 minerals 6 gas) will mine way more then a 30 probe protoss base. Mules can also freely be used everywhere making it easier to balance out gather rates, ie your first base will mine out slower because you can mule at your natural. Gold is also much better with mules.
Chronoboost favors a strategy with fast expanding and heavy gas usage (to not be saturated so much) whereas MULE's are great regardless of strat.
Mules aren't great regardless of strat. Mules are shit when fast expanding. Protoss is so ahead in a TvP when protoss 1 gate core FE's and a terran does a 1 rax FE. Really, the poltprime timing push might give you some troubles, but only on a map like steppes of war... Chronoboost is great. You saturate your base in minutes. Then you can use everyone of your chronoboost on upgrades/tech. Your collosus will be out rediculous fast. Try doing a 3 gate robo build. Expand around 40 food, throw down robotics bay, your main is already saturated because of chronoboost. Saturate your natural, and only chronoboost your collosus. Atack with 4 collosus. Terran will have 4/6 vikings at the most. Bio will be instantly fried, by the collosus. This is just one example. You could also FE, go double forge and get the quickest upgrades in the game.
While trying to develop a model for this i found out that scv's not mining during building is actually a huge factor to consider. Over the course of the first 6 minutes, a terran would have an average of 1.5 scvs building and not mining. This is what i came up with so far:
Assumptions: - Terran will open 1/1/1 - Protoss will do 2 gate robo - both will get 1st and 2nd gas at the same time and put 3 workers in there once finished - both will produce workers non-stop - scvs building a building will not mine - both players will scout and thus have one worker not mining for the duration - mules will be used nonstop - cb will be used first at 1:10 and afterwards once you have enough energy and always on probes - workers traveling to build buildings is not accounted for since both the terran and protoss suffer from it.
The result so far is that after 6 minutes gametime, the protoss will have a slightly oversaturated main with 31 workers and the terran will have 24 workers and one mule. Both will have mined exactly the same amount of gas (581). The terran will have mined 3228 minerals until now and spent 1050 on svcs/oc, netting 2178 minerals surplus. The protoss will have mined 3539 minerals and spent 1250 on probes, netting 2289 minerals surplus. So in this scenario, the protoss has 111 more minerals at his disposal after 6 minutes. However, he has to expand earlier, due to already being saturated.
However, even if the protoss stays on one base after being saturated (30 probes) and just stops probe production, he will still be ahead in total minerals mined once the terran hits saturation at about 7:30 gametime. At this point it's 3230 (terran) vs 3536 (protoss) minerals surplus.
Even though this is a simplified model i think it shows that both cb and mule are comparable and if at all, the protoss has a slight advantage.
On January 26 2011 04:14 Lurk wrote: While trying to develop a model for this i found out that scv's not mining during building is actually a huge factor to consider. Over the course of the first 6 minutes, a terran would have an average of 1.5 scvs building and not mining. This is what i came up with so far:
Assumptions: - Terran will open 1/1/1 - Protoss will do 2 gate robo - both will get 1st and 2nd gas at the same time and put 3 workers in there once finished - both will produce workers non-stop - scvs building a building will not mine - both players will scout and thus have one worker not mining for the duration - mules will be used nonstop - cb will be used first at 1:10 and afterwards once you have enough energy and always on probes - workers traveling to build buildings is not accounted for since both the terran and protoss suffer from it.
The result so far is that after 6 minutes gametime, the protoss will have a slightly oversaturated main with 31 workers and the terran will have 24 workers and one mule. Both will have mined exactly the same amount of gas (581). The terran will have mined 3228 minerals until now and spent 1050 on svcs/oc, netting 2178 minerals surplus. The protoss will have mined 3539 minerals and spent 1250 on probes, netting 2289 minerals surplus. So in this scenario, the protoss has 111 more minerals at his disposal after 6 minutes. However, he has to expand earlier, due to already being saturated.
However, even if the protoss stays on one base after being saturated (30 probes) and just stops probe production, he will still be ahead in total minerals mined once the terran hits saturation at about 7:30 gametime. At this point it's 3230 (terran) vs 3536 (protoss) minerals surplus.
Even though this is a simplified model i think it shows that both cb and mule are comparable and if at all, the protoss has a slight advantage.
It's amazing the amount of people who can't read or cant use thier brain and common sense...
I keep looking at people saying stuff like "MULES are free" "you can spam them" etc.etc
I give props for the OP for trying to lay out the comparisions for others....although personally I felt it wasn't really that hard to figure out. It's already annoying enough when some casters or pro players start spewing out these misconceptions.
Ultimately though, I think your effort is in vain.
The biased will continue to be biased. The flame-tards will continue to be flame-tards.
On January 26 2011 05:04 mavyric wrote: It's amazing the amount of people who can't read or cant use thier brain and common sense...
I keep looking at people saying stuff like "MULES are free" "you can spam them" etc.etc
I give props for the OP for trying to lay out the comparisions for others....although personally I felt it wasn't really that hard to figure out. It's already annoying enough when some casters or pro players start spewing out these misconceptions.
Ultimately though, I think your effort is in vain.
The biased will continue to be biased. The flame-tards will continue to be flame-tards.
I am sure some people liked the OP, and it istn in total fain
EPT
