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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On January 24 2011 23:18 Jumbled wrote: Chronoboost makes research or unit production run 50% faster for 20 seconds. This is not the same as a 50% time reduction. Fix your maths and try again. haha yeh thank you, thats what I meant.. I blame it on english being my second language :p | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
kk but u forgot T workers stay all the time when building stuff so your logic is flawed =X | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 24 2011 23:34 noD wrote: another balance discussion with a hidden complain in it ? kk but u forgot T workers stay all the time when building stuff so your logic is flawed =X I think the OP is trying to say MULEs AREN'T OP. I on the other hand AM complaining about them. But if you call me a noob loud enough, I'm sure nobody will read my post. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1277 Posts
Of course, purely on a macro basis, MULE is always better in the long run for mineral gain. But don't forget, all 3 main building's abilities have their opportunity costs. Every boost you cast on probes means slower tech/units, every mule costs you a scan, your extra 4 larvae can be used in all sorts of diff ways. Anyway, if your concerned about how mule can be harassed etc., not much point as you wouldnt be thinking aborut how chrono>mules if your getting attacked. | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On January 24 2011 23:34 noD wrote: another balance discussion with a hidden complain in it ? kk but u forgot T workers stay all the time when building stuff so your logic is flawed =X It isnt meant to be a complaint. I wnat to show people when they are behind and when they are not. And yes there are obviously many other things to take in to consideration, like the scv's staying with the buildings to make them while the Protoss can be harvesting. Or that Protoss needs to spend 100 minerals at 9 supply while terran can harvast till 10 supply but needs to make his barracks at 12 while protoss can wait with the gateway till 13 or 14 even. The bottom line is that Blizzard has thought this all out very well, and that this thread is just a little step of understanding everyhing as best as possible | ||
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Pry
Sweden3 Posts
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Kyandid
Canada124 Posts
you want to mine longer from everybase. whaaaaaat if you could press a button and instantly receive all the minerals from all of your bases and mine them all out, you'd do that. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
On January 24 2011 23:43 Deckkie wrote: It isnt meant to be a complaint. I wnat to show people when they are behind and when they are not. And yes there are obviously many other things to take in to consideration, like the scv's staying with the buildings to make them while the Protoss can be harvesting. Or that Protoss needs to spend 100 minerals at 9 supply while terran can harvast till 10 supply but needs to make his barracks at 12 while protoss can wait with the gateway till 13 or 14 even. The bottom line is that Blizzard has thought this all out very well, and that this thread is just a little step of understanding everyhing as best as possible I agree ... Actually the basic basic basic mechanics shouldnt even be discussed they had 10 years to do that ... | ||
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
Compare this with Spawn Larva and Chronoboost: these abilities help you get more stuff, but this is hardly a unique ability - you can always just build more of the pertinent structures. Chronoboost allows for some interesting possibilities with upgrades and timings that aren't quite duplicatable by the other races, but as a unique ability, this hardly seems of the same order as those afforded to Terran. Spawn Larva allows you to change what you're producing on the fly, which is useful, but this is productionally equivalent to building more production structures. There are two areas of comparison here: 1) Spawn Larva provides a re-allocation of production capacity that allows tech switching without building as many structures. Chronoboost also allows for re-allocation of production capacity, but allows this re-allocation to include upgrades at the cost of not being as powerful for tech switching as Spawn Larva. Orbital Commands allow Terran to gain additional income without building Command Centers at additional expansions. 2) Spawn Larva allows you to "save" a certain number of production cycles that you can use later, typically to re-max very quickly. Likewise, Chronoboost allows you to save up the ability to spontaneously boost your production capacity significantly. Replacing SCV's with Mules allows you to actually have more usable supply on the field. With regards to 1, all races are capable of getting some kind of extra "production" without building extra structures. The disconnect comes from the fact that the extra Barracks can be built in a safe location, while if either of the other races wants extra income, they're forced to expand, which carries with it a number of risks. With regards to 2, all races have a capability to bolster an army, especially in the late game. The disconnect comes from the fact that Terran can have those units all on the field at the same time. If you've ever been attacked with your army out of position, you know that throwing half your army at your opponent's whole army twice isn't nearly as strong as engaging once with your whole army. The same applies here. Edit: I should probably note that this isn't some attempt to convey that ZOMG MULES ARE OP!, but rather to point out that Starcraft isn't strictly a game of numbers, and that unique capacities can be quite powerful and make it difficult to "math out" who is ahead. On paper, Terran seems to have some pretty powerful "non-numerical" benefits, which make attempts at analysis of game-states difficult if not futile. | ||
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zDUST
Finland165 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:36 siri wrote: mules are good because they can harvest simultaneously with scv's, which means you can increase your mineral income after the 24 worker saturation while chronoboost lets you saturate your bases faster with probes so in equal bases, that are already saturated, mules gives you a mineral income advantage while chronoboost is good if you have bases that are still to be saturated thats all you need to know although, at that point CB can be used on producing useful units/upgrades. If OC energy is used on anything else (scans) the advantage is wasted. | ||
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Drazzzt
Germany999 Posts
There are much more factors to take into account and I can't even think of all of them. * MULEs die, probes usually don't ( so you need new energy for every new MULE, but CB energy only for the first time) * Pylon cost, supply cost for probes * Saturation of minerals plays a role (MULEs dont care about saturation, probes do) * 1 chronoboost only makes ~1.76 (=30/17) probes, not 2 => more than 5 CBs needed for 4 extra probes * etc. So, basically your post is not very helpful to be honest | ||
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Deltablazy
Canada580 Posts
A Protoss though can Chrono boost with no loss. Upgrades, warp gates, researches, workers, etc. Sure a structure can be sniped, but you're at fault for letting that happen. Chrono is just way better, so Protoss do not need to be always 4 workers ahead of the number of OCs the Terran has. And what if the Terran has 50 OCs, are you gonna say the Protoss needs 200 workers? Yes it's an exaggeration, but do consider the possibility of mass OCs. | ||
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
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Brutus
Netherlands284 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:04 Deckkie wrote: Edit: alot of people are stating that the biggest advantage is that Mules can harvast next to scv's, making the Terran economy stronger from one base. ALtough this is true it should be taking in to consideration that this hurts the Terran the most. you want to mine longer from everybase. Surely it will give you the avantage in the beginning but it will hurt you when u need to be on the fourth base while Protoss can still mine out off three. A good terran will always drop his mules on a new unsaturated base. This is so wrong. it's better to have the minerals already. Always. Math is off. Chronoboost increases production by 50%. 150% is not 200%. You will make 3 workers when you would normally make 2, so it means you make probes 1/3 faster. The whole text makes assumptions which are just wrong. Why do you want to mine out slower? Why do you think Mules mining side by side isn't a big deal? These 2 things make mules so powerfull, being able to mine out that gold base faster, while not being hindered by scvs. | ||
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
Upon the mule die: 12000 (8 batches of mineral x 1500, 16 batches if that player FE) - (mineral left in batch 1 + min left in batch 2 + .....) = Total minerals harvested until the mules die. If you use that fomula and track down the first 3 mules, you'll see that Terran's income is always lower than Protoss's EVEN WHEN Terran use mules. If for some reason Terran uses the scan, he will 100% be behind economically. Of course the advantage of mules is it can harvest the same batch with the scvs, but unless the Terran is being contained or commits to 1,2 base play, he rarely use mules on saturated bases but save energy for scan. This basically. Someone analyzed about 10+ top level TvP's and the terran was ALWAYS BEHIND IN ECONOMY IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. Luckily our units are more cost effective until there are collosus or storm, that's why every terran wants to end it quick. Also you need to scan and when you drop 8 mules on a gold patch because you are bad. You won't have the production facility's to back it up. So missing a mule is just like missing a larva inject. 1 gate/core FE against a 1 rax FE(wich isn't safe at all whilste 1 gate/core is) 1 gate/core is WAYYYYYYYYYY ahead in eco. It's not even funny how fast a protoss can saturate a base. | ||
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Brutus
Netherlands284 Posts
On January 25 2011 00:04 Deltablazy wrote: You're only comparing the two abilities economy wise. It's not like a Terran can allow himself to only spend his OC energy on mules. Hell, just by using that 50 energy, doesn't mean it's a free gain. Mule dies too early and doesn't pay for himself, scan misses and doesn't reveal anything. Those can put Terran at a disadvantage. I'm not even mentioning extra supply, but let's ignore that. A Protoss though can Chrono boost with no loss. Upgrades, warp gates, researches, workers, etc. Sure a structure can be sniped, but you're at fault for letting that happen. Chrono is just way better, so Protoss do not need to be always 4 workers ahead of the number of OCs the Terran has. And what if the Terran has 50 OCs, are you gonna say the Protoss needs 200 workers? Yes it's an exaggeration, but do consider the possibility of mass OCs. Lol, sorry, but wut? Why can't he allow to only use it on mules? Maybe you need a few scans, but most of them will be on mules. You are saying that it is the protoss' fault for letting someone snipe the building, but when terran loses the mule it's not their fault? Why? Sometimes revealing nothing= something. If you don't see double gas at the expansion of zerg, it means mutas will be delayed or not coming at all. And after all, I think terran will be using energy more on eco than protoss, because they will chrono out upgrades/units too. Your last paragraph makes no sense. Mule is the best macro mechanic for eco, without a doubt. Larva and cb can be used on something else, which kinda makes up for it. | ||
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Autunno
Brazil147 Posts
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Brutus
Netherlands284 Posts
On January 25 2011 00:12 Endorsed wrote: This basically. Someone analyzed about 10+ top level TvP's and the terran was ALWAYS BEHIND IN ECONOMY IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. Luckily our units are more cost effective until there are collosus or storm, that's why every terran wants to end it quick. Also you need to scan and when you drop 8 mules on a gold patch because you are bad. You won't have the production facility's to back it up. So missing a mule is just like missing a larva inject. 1 gate/core FE against a 1 rax FE(wich isn't safe at all whilste 1 gate/core is) 1 gate/core is WAYYYYYYYYYY ahead in eco. It's not even funny how fast a protoss can saturate a base. 1 gate/core is safer than 1 rax FE AND ahead in eco? I am calling bullshit on this until I see some replays or something. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
Mules mine 240 or 270 minerals depending on the mineral patch. If you use them only on the 270 ones then they will deplete faster limiting your mineral income, compared to if you spread them out. At full saturation 4 workers will mine around 230-240 minerals for 90 seconds, but that's an average for all the workers, while the last 4 would've improved your mining rate by less than that. A mule is roughly equal to 4.5 workers on full saturation and 3 workers with low saturation. The chronoboost stuff already got corrected and it means you will need more chronos to match a mule. Protoss is ahead economically if he chronos his nexus, but approaching saturation quickly turns that around and the terran pulls ahead in mineral income by ~20%, while the protoss has to expand, which incurs additional costs and risks. Depleting your minerals faster with Mules is not a disadvantage, just like having more probes than the terran has SCVs is not a disadvantage. You will get the same amount of minerals from the base(not an advantage or disadvantage, it's equal) in less time(an obvious advantage). About the mining from more bases at the same time, it would be like terran having 4000 extra minerals spent on units or in the bank and 2 mining bases and the toss having 3 mining bases, with the extra base having 4000 minerals left. Clearly the terran is not hurt in any way. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
Orbital commands pay for themselves in slightly more then half a MULE drop, so as soon as the orbital finishes, you're ahead. Chrono boosted probes are a constant drain on the protoss economy. MULEs are better then literally every other existing resource mechanic in the game. There's no point in arguing otherwise. | ||
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