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On January 25 2011 03:51 Alejandrisha wrote:
your whole idea of 4 probes is absolutely ridiculous. workers don't mine in a vacuum. maybe you are saying 4 probes mining if they are completely alone on a base? when you add the mineral income that 4 probes that are mining in a vacuum to a base that is already saturated, that is more than 4 probes, even infinitely more probes since there is a cap. I am reading everything you are typing but missing the logic, perhaps.
Let me state once more that most Terrans dont like muling from completely saturated bases. And for when u come with the one base argument. when someone does a one base (or two base) all in he most likely wont have a totally saturated base. If he has a totally saturated base something is wrong with the timing .. the opponent will have an good 2 base eco running already.
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On January 25 2011 03:49 Blurzz wrote:
I think you forgot to put in the main post how SCV's have to stay with a structure to build it while probes just place it then go back to mining.
Ye it has been mentioned before. If someone wants to make the "simple breakdown" a "complex breakdown" I encourage it fully, but I dont feel like doing that. Maybe another time.
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On January 25 2011 03:51 Alejandrisha wrote:
your whole idea of 4 probes is absolutely ridiculous. workers don't mine in a vacuum. maybe you are saying 4 probes mining if they are completely alone on a base? when you add the mineral income that 4 probes that are mining in a vacuum to a base that is already saturated, that is more than 4 probes, even infinitely more probes since there is a cap. I am reading everything you are typing but missing the logic, perhaps.
After spending the first 4 chronoboosts on probes a Protoss base won't be saturated; I know this since I actually try all races for a fair comparison instead of calling everything that I don't like ridiculous. If your main is getting oversaturated you expand, that is the point to expanding.
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On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote:
MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs.
It's impossible to compare either, both serve different purposes, you would have to compare the OC to the nexus though, the OC is more like the SCV. It costs some money, and then generates money back over time, like a harvester.
The OC though also calls down supply, and scans. It's just hard to compare, MULEs allow oversaturation, repair call-down and that stuff. Chronoboost is also of course a spell with infinite versatility. Both are different, and hard to compare.
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I think MULES should be on cooldown and everything would be great. Would require Terran players to hit the timing in order to get the bonus and they would still be good.
Ridiculousness like dropping 16 MULES on Gold wouldn't occur and all these caster making fun of MULES while looking at the income tab could finally shut up.
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On January 25 2011 03:51 Alejandrisha wrote:
your whole idea of 4 probes is absolutely ridiculous. workers don't mine in a vacuum. maybe you are saying 4 probes mining if they are completely alone on a base? when you add the mineral income that 4 probes that are mining in a vacuum to a base that is already saturated, that is more than 4 probes, even infinitely more probes since there is a cap. I am reading everything you are typing but missing the logic, perhaps.
This is actually really important: 2 workers on a mineral patch gets you very close to 100% more minerals than 1 worker, but 3 workers on a mineral patch gets you (on average) around 20% more than 2 workers (linear progression would be 50%). Those are pretty significant diminishing returns that Mules aren't subject to.That Mule is worth way more than 4 additional Probes if you are over 2 Probes per patch, and this is completely disregarding the fact that a Mule is more valuable than an infinite number of Probes past saturation (strictly in terms of economy).
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On January 24 2011 23:24 Jermstuddog wrote:
The biggest advantages of the MULE are being talked about in this thread, but weren't mentioned in the OP at all.
-MULEs can harvest minerals on top of SCVs
This means a fully saturated base of 24 workers on minerals, 6 in each gas is FAR better for a Terran than any other race. But acting like this only happens at 24 workers is already wrong. From the very first MULE you drop, it should be dropped on the closest mineral patch, and once you start getting 11+ workers on minerals (close patches can only fit 2 workers), each worker after that starts becoming less and less of an economic gain.
MULEs completely ignore this and just mine right over the top of whatever SCV is on that patch.
MULEs give an even bigger income % per drop if you have more than 11 workers on the mineral line.
-MULEs don't take supply
You say that Protoss player spent his 200 minerals and gets the consistant probes, that makes him even with the 150 mineral cost of the OC. But what you forgot was the 50 minerals worth of pylon that you took up. This adds to the awesome of the MULE from the very beginning of the game. So while the other races get to spend 250 minerals on equivalent harvesting (remember, it's not really equivalent because we have more than 11 workers on the mineral line) Terran can put that money into another Barracks and get himself even further ahead in the supply count.
This could get even worse in the late-game, though I haven't seen anything to that effect just yet. Supply is hard capped at 200. A Terran could build 10 OCs, live off MULE harvesting, and add those 40 supply worth of SCVs to their army. The best part? The OCs can be anywhere on the map, and they give supply to boot, 1.375 depots worth to be exact, not a bad deal at all.
-Terran will eventually have to spend his energy on scans!
Who said that's ever required? Does Terran not have Ravens, Turrets, EMP, and Sensor Towers all to help with their scouting, zoning and detection? Not even counting scans, Terran has twice as much detection capabilities as either of their opponents. Scans are used because they're just hands down better than the rest. Scans aren't a detriment to MULE income, they're a bonus to Terran awesome and used completely by choice. Forced scans only exist because Terrans can CHOOSE not to use the other methods of detection that are so required by the other races.
And my personal favorite that nobody seems to pay attention to:
-MULEs can't be harrassed!!
"OMG what? But mutas kill my MULEs ALL DAY!!!
Or... at least they did for that 90 seconds... then I just called down another one... cuz I got skills like that."
That's right, Kill 4 workers, you cost your opponent 200 more minerals + worker production time (or army production for Zerg) + mining time that can never be made up. Kill a MULE, you cost your opponent 50 energy + mining time that can never be made up. One of these things cost less than the other. I'll let you try to figure that out.
TLDR: Chrono is OP
I've read everything and agreed, 100%, with you up until the end, "TLDR: Chrono is OP" now I don't even know that if you were trolling or not because I was under the impression you were making an argument that Mules are better which I agreed. But if you were kidding then I apologize and let's move on.
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You can't put MULEs on a cooldown without breaking the other abilities that the OC has.
It's not a matter of whether MULEs or Chrono is better, any more than a thread comparing marines with zealots.
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On January 24 2011 22:04 Deckkie wrote:
In a normal opening for Protoss (13 gate 13 gas), he will have collected 100 enegry on his Nexus and the needed 200 minerals for probes to Chronoboost 4 extra probes at the 3.15 min mark.
With A normal opening from Terran (12 rax, 13 gas, 15 Orbital Command), the Terran will have his first Mule at presicely 3.15 min.
Lost a lot of credibility with me, here. 13 gate 13 gas is nowhere close to a normal opening.
12gate 14gas is
13gate 15gas is
even 13gate 14gas is.
I suggest a little more understanding of common Protoss build orders before you start making generalizations about how much energy the Nexus has and the minerals required. You start from very questionable premises.
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On January 24 2011 23:11 coko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:58 Sm3agol wrote:On January 24 2011 22:52 BrahCJ wrote:On January 24 2011 22:49 Sm3agol wrote:On January 24 2011 22:44 Deckkie wrote:On January 24 2011 22:43 Sm3agol wrote:
MULES are free. Chronoboost just makes your 50 mineral units come out faster. MULE >>>>> chronoboost in the pure economy department. I think it's balanced out by being able to chronoboost upgrades and such though, not crying imba. Just don't say chrono makes P economy equal to Ts, because that is pure bs. Did u even read the OP?? Yes. I'm saying that what op is saying is not accurate. Because P has to spend 200 extra minerals per OC to stay even in income. Orbital commands are not free. 150 mins is nothing in comparison to a free 270 mins every 90 seconds. Heck, the first MULE you drops gets you that back. And I guess I really worded my other post really bad, and didn't make another point I meant to make lol. P has to spend 200 minerals and chronoboost to stay even in income with a t, while this also deprives him of being able to chrono upgrades and units, which will put him behind in the unit department. Pure math-wise, I know what he's saying, but T doesn't have to use his "economy ability" to keep his army up to date, he's free to spam MULEs all game, because they don't affect army. While early game, if P doesn't use chrono on things like warpgates, then they can be pretty behind in army, as it kills most of their early attack timings. But it isn't 200 minerals straight away, it is 50 in a 10/15 second period. So the first probe is mining 3 more probe building time's life, the second 2, the third 1. Chronoboost also comes in 25 energy time slots, thus allowing two for every mule/scan/drop. (though drop is largely ignored/hated these days). I do think mules in their current state are very powerful, and the fact they aren't affected by scv's is a huge benefit. I think just removing that could really change things.
I guess you don't watch much GSL, truly mineral strapped timing build revolve around Supply drop. Not to mention the immense boon supply drop is after a doom drop....
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Mules are always a high priority unit when you harass the mineral line; What's the terran going to do? Tech up to EMP and hit the nexus every 30 seconds (it's been done). The Argument can go either way, which makes it pretty damn balanced for the game Sc2 is.
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On January 25 2011 07:51 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:04 Deckkie wrote:
In a normal opening for Protoss (13 gate 13 gas), he will have collected 100 enegry on his Nexus and the needed 200 minerals for probes to Chronoboost 4 extra probes at the 3.15 min mark.
With A normal opening from Terran (12 rax, 13 gas, 15 Orbital Command), the Terran will have his first Mule at presicely 3.15 min.
Lost a lot of credibility with me, here. 13 gate 13 gas is nowhere close to a normal opening. 12gate 14gas is 13gate 15gas is even 13gate 14gas is. I suggest a little more understanding of common Protoss build orders before you start making generalizations about how much energy the Nexus has and the minerals required. You start from very questionable premises.
yes, sorry, I meant 13 gate 15 gas. it still comes down to the same thing...
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2-4 of a terran's scvs at any given time are not harvesting, because they are making buildings.
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You forget the fact that protoss dont need to waste time with probes building while the terran have to waste a svc per building.
So yeah, terran needs mules to increase their income.
Oh, dont forget also that crono its also used to get faster upgrades : P
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Nobody has stated anything about quickly oversaturating the existing base(s) with CB so a new expo can be saturated a lot quicker. This, along woth gateboosting is the mainadvantage of CB in my opinion.
This thread sucks at comparing the macro mechanics actually. Way to few parameters accounted for.
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On January 25 2011 00:00 zDUST wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:36 siri wrote:
mules are good because they can harvest simultaneously with scv's, which means you can increase your mineral income after the 24 worker saturation
while chronoboost lets you saturate your bases faster with probes
so in equal bases, that are already saturated, mules gives you a mineral income advantage
while chronoboost is good if you have bases that are still to be saturated
thats all you need to know although, at that point CB can be used on producing useful units/upgrades. If OC energy is used on anything else (scans) the advantage is wasted.
no offense, but I keep hearing, oh well terran has to use scans. NO terran does not HAVE TO USE SCANS, you can make an expensive detection unit like the other races. And I'd argue the information you can learn with a scan can be worth >300 minerals, especially during the mid point of the game where scouting is difficult.
also OP's math is super fuzzy, mules bring in either 270 or 300 depending on where you put them, and 250 =/= 300(especially if you keep adding this up over the 20 minute period of n average gaqme), not to mention the supply usage the extra probes take. CB =/= mules economy wise, however CB is great for making robo units and researching stuff, but protoss upgrades take a long time in general since they are expected to be chrono boosted....
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On January 25 2011 19:16 TheGiftedApe wrote:CB =/= mules economy wise, however CB is great for making robo units and researching stuff, but protoss upgrades take a long time in general since they are expected to be chrono boosted....
This may be true for protoss specific upgrades but at least weapon/armor upgrades take exactly as long for protoss as for the other races.
Also, about the scan/detection issue: Terran mobile detection (raven) costs at least DOUBLE the gas as the detector for other races. It is also higher in the tech path than for other races (t3 as compared to t2). Sure we get nice extra abilies with the raven but if we just need a detector we have to pay for those regardless. So terrans actually need scans as a means of early detection. Otherwise a fast dt rush would hit a terran before he can get a detection unit out, how stupid would that be ? Imagine a terran could be at your base with cloaked banshees before you could build an observer ...
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On January 25 2011 19:32 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 19:16 TheGiftedApe wrote:CB =/= mules economy wise, however CB is great for making robo units and researching stuff, but protoss upgrades take a long time in general since they are expected to be chrono boosted.... This may be true for protoss specific upgrades but at least weapon/armor upgrades take exactly as long for protoss as for the other races. Also, about the scan/detection issue: Terran mobile detection (raven) costs at least DOUBLE the gas as the detector for other races. It is also higher in the tech path than for other races (t3 as compared to t2). Sure we get nice extra abilies with the raven but if we just need a detector we have to pay for those regardless. So terrans actually need scans as a means of early detection. Otherwise a fast dt rush would hit a terran before he can get a detection unit out, how stupid would that be ? Imagine a terran could be at your base with cloaked banshees before you could build an observer ...
U can get a raven out by the time a dt gets out btw. (u can also get turrets b4 dts pop out)I'm not saying CB isn't great.....I also think protoss ground upgrades are OP, especially since our upgrades apply to more units. But NO MATTER WHAT, it will never make up for the fact that Mules are better than CB economy-wise. And really mules should not be compared to chonro boosted probes.(especially since zerg should be apart of the equation.)
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On January 25 2011 19:41 TheGiftedApe wrote:But NO MATTER WHAT, it will never make up for the fact that Mules are better than CB economy-wise. And really mules should not be compared to chonro boosted probes.(especially since zerg should be apart of the equation.)
Before you make such a statement, you should actually proof it. I don't care if you do it by accurate theorycrafting (which is almost impossible given the factors to consider) or by empirical testing. I have done the latter and i arrived at the conclusion that neither mules nor cb are giving an economical advantage but rather that they are about equal.
So please, feel free to prove me wrong. Play a TvP game where neither player cuts workers orkills the other players workers and play standard builds. Also make they expo at the same time. Then look at the income.
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sorry didnt read last 2 pages as i'm at work atm, so if it hasn't been posted yet;
didn't OP forgot about the cost to transform command center into OC? and also the time it takes, during which you can't build any scv?
to that you also need to add the time off mining for scvs when building vs probes.. i think all in all T & P eco bonii offset each other
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EPT
