EPTImagine, for a moment, that you are a young, aspiring poker player. You've played several home games and find yourself consistently beating your friends. Feeling on top of the world, you decide to venture into the world of online poker. Not wanting to get in too deep, too fast, you start with small $5 sit-n-gos on Pokerstars or Fulltilt.
STOP!
In the world of poker, a good player here might begin to gradually earn money and build bankroll. They may never sit across Phil Ivey, or out-read Negreanu, or put a play on Dwan, but this person could legitimately earn a small amount of cash over time by playing poker, even if he is never good enough to move up to high stakes games.
However, if the world of poker were anything like the world of Starcraft 2, this good player would never win a single tournament in his entire life. Why? All of the $5 and $10 sit and go tournies would be won by the world's best poker players. The average (or even well-above-average) poker player would likely never cash in any tournament because all of the world champions of poker would be dominating the lower stakes.
This happens every single week with the Starcraft 2 tournaments. The amount of skill chasing such few dollars is absolutely ridiculous. I've taken a small sample from just 4 small-cash tournaments that happen on a regular basis around here:
Undeniable Tournament
+ Show Spoiler +
1 - Murder - $50
2 - Murder - $75
3 - Fenix - $100
4 - Fenix - $75
5 - Select - $75
6 - dignitasSjow - $75
7 - Taurent - $100
8 - Fenix - $100
7 - dignitasSjow - $100
8 - ROOTDrewbie - $100
9 - dignitasSjow - $100
10 - ROOTDrewbie - $100
11 - kawaiirice - $100
12 - dignitasSjow - $100
2 - Murder - $75
3 - Fenix - $100
4 - Fenix - $75
5 - Select - $75
6 - dignitasSjow - $75
7 - Taurent - $100
8 - Fenix - $100
7 - dignitasSjow - $100
8 - ROOTDrewbie - $100
9 - dignitasSjow - $100
10 - ROOTDrewbie - $100
11 - kawaiirice - $100
12 - dignitasSjow - $100
Wolf Cup
+ Show Spoiler +
2 - MorroW - $50
3 - KawaiiRice - $50
4 - HuK - $50
5 - KawaiiRice - $50
6 - MorroW - $50
7 - Fenix - $50
8 - MorroW - $50
9 - MorroW - $50
10 - Fenix - $100
11 - Zelniq - $200
12 - TTOne - $50
13 - Fenix - $50
14 - Levin - $50
3 - KawaiiRice - $50
4 - HuK - $50
5 - KawaiiRice - $50
6 - MorroW - $50
7 - Fenix - $50
8 - MorroW - $50
9 - MorroW - $50
10 - Fenix - $100
11 - Zelniq - $200
12 - TTOne - $50
13 - Fenix - $50
14 - Levin - $50
Craft Cup
+ Show Spoiler +
1 - mouzStrelok - $50
2 - mouzStrelok - $50
3 - aTnSocke - $50
4 - NightEnD - $50
5 - NightEnD - $50
6 - SjoW - $100
7 - merz - $50
8 - aTnSocke - $120
9 - SjoW - $150
10 - SjoW - $150
11 - SjoW - $100
12 - tarson - $100
13 - Naugrim - $100
14 - sLDeathAngel - $150
2 - mouzStrelok - $50
3 - aTnSocke - $50
4 - NightEnD - $50
5 - NightEnD - $50
6 - SjoW - $100
7 - merz - $50
8 - aTnSocke - $120
9 - SjoW - $150
10 - SjoW - $150
11 - SjoW - $100
12 - tarson - $100
13 - Naugrim - $100
14 - sLDeathAngel - $150
Go4Sc2
+ Show Spoiler +
1- Cloud - 200 EUR
2- Tarson - 200 EUR
3 - SjoW - 200 EUR
4 - Naama - 200 EUR
5 - Brat_OK - 200 EUR
6 - GoOdy - 200 EUR
7 - SjoW - 200 EUR
9 - MaNa - 200 EUR
10 - MaNa - 200 EUR
11 - Tarson - 200 EUR
12 - Socke - 200 EUR
2- Tarson - 200 EUR
3 - SjoW - 200 EUR
4 - Naama - 200 EUR
5 - Brat_OK - 200 EUR
6 - GoOdy - 200 EUR
7 - SjoW - 200 EUR
9 - MaNa - 200 EUR
10 - MaNa - 200 EUR
11 - Tarson - 200 EUR
12 - Socke - 200 EUR
These tournaments are all being won by some of the best players in the world. When I talk about "the best", I'm not talking about top-tier people like Idra, Ret, or Jinro, I'm talking about anyone who would make the top 200 (or even 300 or 400) list of any region. Compared to the number of people who play Starcraft 2 (3 million copies sold in the first month), these people represent a very small percentage (<0.05%) of the overall Starcraft 2 community.
This brings me to the "meat" of my problem with the current Starcraft 2 tournament scene....there's too much talent chasing too few dollars. There's just no money in it.
Now, I understand that there are plenty of people out there who say that the game should be played simply for the love of the game and that there's no reason that money should be a part of it, but if it could be, why not? When so many people are clamoring for Starcraft 2 to be taken seriously as an "E-Sport", and with so many eyes on the game (between Teamliquid web hits, stream viewers, professional match series observers, etc...etc...), why couldn't there be more money involved?
I think the single most detrimental problem afflicting the Starcraft 2 tournament scene is that there's simply no money going into it. The best players in the world are winning $50 tournaments. Much the same as my earlier example, it would be like a decent poker player enrolling in small-stakes online tournaments, simply to discover that the best poker players in the world are constantly sweeping every single event.
I believe the solution to this problem would be weekly buy-in tournaments. The Starcraft 2 community needs to stop relying on companies like Razer or individuals to donate money to prize pools in order for there to be any decent money for a prize pool. There would be a tremendous infusion of excitement and possibility for all Diamond players if small buy-in tournaments were to be popularized.
Imagine a 64 player, $10 buy-in tournament. With only 64 players involved, you have over $600 in the prize pool. You could go 400/200 for 1st/2nd, or even pay out some decent sized prizes to the top 4. With just 64 players (at $10 a player) you have a tournament with a larger prize pool than 99% of the tournaments currently posted on TL.
EDIT: After considering this for a while, I returned to poker to view the buy-in and prize structure. Awarding $600 between two people from a 64 player tournament would be pretty silly. $600, however, could very comfortably be split between the top 8, or even the top 16, and people would still be making enough money for tournaments to have an EV+ (an estimated positive return of investment).
HYPOTHETICAL PRIZE DISTRIBUTION FOR A 64 OR 128 PLAYER, $10 BUY-IN TOURNAMENT
+ Show Spoiler +
$10 buy-in
64 players
10% Rake
$64 Rake, $576 prize pool
Award Percentage of Prize Pool
1 - 34.0%
2 - 21%
3 - 12.5%
4 - 12.5%
5 - 5%
6 - 5%
7 - 5%
8 - 5%
Actual Cash Prize Value
1 - $195.84
2 - $120.96
3 - $72.00
4 - $72.00
5 - $28.80
6 - $28.80
7 - $28.80
8 - $28.80
$10 buy-in
128 players
10% Rake
$128 Rake, $1,152 prize pool
Award Percentage of Prize Pool
1 - 26%
2 - 17%
3 - 11%
4 - 11%
5 - 4.75%
6 - 4.75%
7 - 4.75%
8 - 4.75%
9 - 2%
10 - 2%
11 - 2%
12 - 2%
13 - 2%
14 - 2%
15 - 2%
16 - 2%
Actual Cash Prize Value
1 - $299.52
2 - $195.84
3 - $126.72
4 - $126.72
5 - $54.72
6 - $54.72
7 - $54.72
8 - $54.72
9 - $23.04
10 - $23.04
11 - $23.04
12 - $23.04
13 - $23.04
14 - $23.04
15 - $23.04
16 - $23.04
64 players
10% Rake
$64 Rake, $576 prize pool
Award Percentage of Prize Pool
1 - 34.0%
2 - 21%
3 - 12.5%
4 - 12.5%
5 - 5%
6 - 5%
7 - 5%
8 - 5%
Actual Cash Prize Value
1 - $195.84
2 - $120.96
3 - $72.00
4 - $72.00
5 - $28.80
6 - $28.80
7 - $28.80
8 - $28.80
$10 buy-in
128 players
10% Rake
$128 Rake, $1,152 prize pool
Award Percentage of Prize Pool
1 - 26%
2 - 17%
3 - 11%
4 - 11%
5 - 4.75%
6 - 4.75%
7 - 4.75%
8 - 4.75%
9 - 2%
10 - 2%
11 - 2%
12 - 2%
13 - 2%
14 - 2%
15 - 2%
16 - 2%
Actual Cash Prize Value
1 - $299.52
2 - $195.84
3 - $126.72
4 - $126.72
5 - $54.72
6 - $54.72
7 - $54.72
8 - $54.72
9 - $23.04
10 - $23.04
11 - $23.04
12 - $23.04
13 - $23.04
14 - $23.04
15 - $23.04
16 - $23.04
Poll: Would you pay $10 USD to play in a Starcraft 2 Tournament?
Yes (819)
68%
No (382)
32%
1201 total votes
No (382)
1201 total votes
Your vote: Would you pay $10 USD to play in a Starcraft 2 Tournament?
If you include a rake in the tournament, all of a sudden there are millions of possibilities. Imagine that it's set-up similarly to poker rake, where the tournament hosts would keep a small percentage of the buy-in. $10 tournaments would be $9 into the prize pool and $1 into the rake. There are an almost limitless amount of possibilities that could spawn from that rake, including, but not limited to:
- People paying casters to cast their tournaments
- Websites being supported by more than constantly plugging products or begging for donations
- Teamliquid taking a small percentage of tourney rakes that they advertise, giving them money to pay coders/webdesigners
- More incentives for sponsors or advertisers to get involved
- People being more interested in taking lessons from top-tier gamers
I understand there are some boundaries to initially setting this up. Paying $10 for tournies where you have almost no chance of winning is discouraging. But if these tournies continue for a while, ideally the best players would be playing in better tournaments. It's the same way with poker today. Negranu and Ivey and Hellmuth don't play in small stakes because it's a waste of time for them. They'd much rather play in the larger stake games. If there were a lot of money in Starcraft 2 games from people paying to enter tournaments, the $5 and $10 tournaments would receive no interest from top players. They would be playing in the $25, $50 and $75 tournaments.
I know there are a lot of potential hurdles to this (local gambling laws, Blizzard's tournament registration policies, how money would be transferred), but I would really like to see the communities response to this idea. I know, from personal experience, that there ARE people out there willing to put SOME money into this game. I've seen it in the form of donations and I've seen it in people paying for lessons. As always, keep trolling/flaming to a minimum, constructive thoughts only, blah blah blah, love you.
~Destiny
EDIT: Popular responses...
The best players are playing in small prize tournaments all the time, as is the point of the whole thread. If a player is ranked 100 in the top 200 and there's a 32 man or 64 man tournament with a $25 or $50 buy in, do you think that player is going to play in a 5 or 10 dollar tourney with a higher chance of winning or pay a lot more with a lot worse odds?
I know this is going to come up a lot, so let me explain how free market principles dictate who plays in which tournaments.If there were three different tournies at the same time every Friday, one at $5, one at $25, and one at $100, you would only be able to play in each one. At first glance, you might think, "Wow, Idra or Huk are just going to register and roll one of the smaller tournies, this sucks!" But think about it from Idra or Huk's perspective. How would you feel if you were one of the top gamers in the world and you saw that you were taking $200 prizes easily in smaller tournaments only to find that 2000 rated Diamond players were winning $4000 for 1st place finishes in larger ones? I think this would only need to happen ONCE before pro gamers quickly moved to the higher buy-in tournaments.
It would be foolish for top tier players to waste their talents in lower buy-in tournaments if other players of much lesser skill began to win large sums of money in the higher tournaments.
Blizzard won't allow it legal gambling herpes blah blah blah
I understand there may be legal boundaries to this, but I'm not interested in those right now. I'm just interested in gauging the community interest/response. If tens of thousands of people are in favor of an idea, they will find a way to make it happen. And if there's an opportunity for blizzard to generate more interested for a game, and some income from it, too, such as taking a small percentage of the rake of all the tournaments, I couldn't see them saying no. But that's an entirely different discussion altogether.Everyone has a shot at winning poker, and half the people at the table think they're the best person at the table, it's just the way the game works and it keeps people wanting to spend money thinking they're the best and them thinking its only a matter of time before the luck evens out and they become winners.
A lot of people have been shooting down the parallels I draw between Poker and Starcraft because Poker has an element of luck involved in it that's entirely absent from Starcraft. While this is true, I believe it to be irrelevant to my example. I only used poker as an example because it's a sport where a lot of people with a huge range of skill can compete, and, due to the way buy-in structures work, almost ANY person who knows how to play, and practices hard, can earn money at SOME level.I believe with different buy-in levels for Starcraft 2 tournaments, this same result could be achieved. The better the player you are, the higher in buy-ins you will trend to. The noobier you feel, the lower the stakes you would be comfortable playing. A bronze player will not enter a $200 buy-in because he knows he's simply throwing away his money, but an S Class, 2-time GSL champion will not enter a $5 buy-in tournament because he doesn't want to see someone of a much lesser skill win more money in a higher buy-in.
Such as only allowing people to of a certain league to play in certain tournaments.
You just setup tournaments with a threshold on ladder level and points cutoffs. It's not rocket surgery.
I want to squash this idea now. Free market principles NEED to weed out higher level players from lower level tournaments, otherwise it would be impossible to figure out who's smurfing or who's borrowing a friends' account to easily win in a "plat only" tourney. Does anyone remember ICCup? The HARDEST tournies on ICCup were the D tournies, because all of the A+++ players would create new accounts to smurf them.There isn't anything stopping players from entering all 3 tournaments at once.
I think there are a lot of people concerned with pros simply playing multiple tournaments competitively. They would play for real in the $100 tournies and then sweep the smaller ones. I think that spreading out the prize pool between the top 25% or so of the finishing players would decrease the incentive for this kind of behavior. Another idea, perhaps, would be to have all of these tournaments on the same day, so people were forced to choose between buy-ins, instead of simply playing all of them.tl;dr: Luck in poker, no luck in SC2+ Show Spoiler +
I have seen that you already responded to the "element of luck" argument, but i think you didnt get the point:
If someone wants to earn money by playing a SC2/poker tournament, there HAS to be someone else in this tournament losing money.
So why would someone participate in a tournament to lose money?
A: The player is aware of it, but participates anyway because he wants to play.
B: The player does not realize he is losing money.
Why A is true for poker:
Some sort of currency is essential to play poker. While it is possible to play with playmoney, the game is way more exciting when played with real money and there are people, who are willing to lose some bucks in exchange for some entertainment.
Why A isnt true for starcraft:
As long as free sponsored tournaments exist there is no reason to participate in a buyin tournament with no/little chance to get in the money at all.
Why B is true for poker:
short: (huge) element of luck
long: A losing player (a player who has a negative expected value) will occasionally win money in a tournament. A winning player( a player who has a positive expected value) will regularly lose money in a tournament. This means you cannot determine if you are a winning or a losing player based on your results as long as you dont have a huge sample size of tournaments played(we are talking about thousands of tournaments)
Why B isnt true for starcraft:
short: no(/little) element of luck
long: If you lose to a player on balanced maps, no build order loses involved you can be pretty sure he is better than you. If theres a tournament full of people, who are probably better than you, you know you will lose money by participating.
So basically what will happen is, in week 1 the 64 best players will participate in the 64 man tournament(lets assume top8 get paid) with the highest buyin. after that, at least 32 players will realize they have almost no chance at getting top 8 in that field. In week 2 there will only be 32 players left ( + some idiots who won money in the second highest buyin tourney). So there are less than 64 players participating, generating a smaller prizepool and a tougher field, thus making it unprofitable for even more players.
The 32 players who dont participate anymore will move down to the second highest buyin tournament, making this tournament unprofitable for other players, which will then move down also.
So every week every tournament is getting tougher, until no one can play any tournament profitably.
If someone wants to earn money by playing a SC2/poker tournament, there HAS to be someone else in this tournament losing money.
So why would someone participate in a tournament to lose money?
A: The player is aware of it, but participates anyway because he wants to play.
B: The player does not realize he is losing money.
Why A is true for poker:
Some sort of currency is essential to play poker. While it is possible to play with playmoney, the game is way more exciting when played with real money and there are people, who are willing to lose some bucks in exchange for some entertainment.
Why A isnt true for starcraft:
As long as free sponsored tournaments exist there is no reason to participate in a buyin tournament with no/little chance to get in the money at all.
Why B is true for poker:
short: (huge) element of luck
long: A losing player (a player who has a negative expected value) will occasionally win money in a tournament. A winning player( a player who has a positive expected value) will regularly lose money in a tournament. This means you cannot determine if you are a winning or a losing player based on your results as long as you dont have a huge sample size of tournaments played(we are talking about thousands of tournaments)
Why B isnt true for starcraft:
short: no(/little) element of luck
long: If you lose to a player on balanced maps, no build order loses involved you can be pretty sure he is better than you. If theres a tournament full of people, who are probably better than you, you know you will lose money by participating.
So basically what will happen is, in week 1 the 64 best players will participate in the 64 man tournament(lets assume top8 get paid) with the highest buyin. after that, at least 32 players will realize they have almost no chance at getting top 8 in that field. In week 2 there will only be 32 players left ( + some idiots who won money in the second highest buyin tourney). So there are less than 64 players participating, generating a smaller prizepool and a tougher field, thus making it unprofitable for even more players.
The 32 players who dont participate anymore will move down to the second highest buyin tournament, making this tournament unprofitable for other players, which will then move down also.
So every week every tournament is getting tougher, until no one can play any tournament profitably.
I think this post best illustrates why people believe that luck is such a huge factor in this SC2 buy-in tournament idea, and how it makes comparing poker to SC2 a false dichotomy, of sorts.
Poker does indeed have a great deal of luck involved (or at least enough of the illusion of luck to keep bringing fish back into the game). The only way for a few to make money playing SC2 in these sorts of tournaments is for many people to lose money, again, this is true.
However, with the buy-in and payout structure mentioned earlier in my post, I believe it's possible that people from a wide variety of skill levels will be able to profit from these tournaments, or at least will believe they can.
Let's say they first tournament is launched. In this hypothetical tournament with my previous pay-out structure outlined (top 8 receive money), it's almost a guarantee that those top 8 will want to participate again, as their next tournament buy-in will essentially be "free". The next 8 will probably want to participate again as well, as they were only 1 place away. So 16 are probably going to re-register. The next 16, from the ro32, may feel like they could get "in the money" with a lucky bracket reshuffle. That leaves us with the final 32 that you mention.
In a perfect world, skill will be distributed appropriately through-out the buy-ins. People of greater skill will play in higher buy-in tournaments (as there is more money to be won) and people of lesser skill will play in smaller tournaments. If someone is playing in a $25 tourney and they keep struggling to get past the ro64, or can never get past the ro32, perhaps dropping down to the next tourney (where they see some players finishing in the ro16 or ro32 that they KNOW they can beat) would be appropriate for them.
The only people who would really feel like they could NEVER compete would be people playing in the absolute lowest buy-in tournament who are unable to get out of the ro64. The prize money near the top could serve as motivation to improve, but they could also just play in the tourney for the chance of getting a good bracket shuffle so they can make it to or near the money. These players would be playing for such low stakes ($5 or less) that they wouldn't feel like absolute shit for throwing away the money, especially when you take into account how much money we throw at entertainment in our daily lives.
