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On December 14 2010 14:50 heishe wrote:
that would work for a few weeks at most. then people would start to realize that the same few guys who always win still always win this tournament and nobody is going to want to play it.
But to replace the people that give up are the smaller amount of people that are willing to work even harder than the top players and will catch up and surpass their skill level.
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i think the principles behind this are sound and i can definitely see the interest behind it
i know i myself recently was doing fairly well in a low, low stakes tournament only to come up against effing inflowmini. im a 2100 point player playing a top 200(i think hes like 3100 or something ridculous). feels really pointless and unfair. lucky for me the tournament was canceled before i could embarrass myself, but still, i had no chance at all.
the problems i see are definitely legal. blizzard(blizzard-activision i mean...) is definitely not going to approve of anyone else making a profit off their game without them getting some kind of a cut. so you may want to contact them as well and see what their policy is for independent buy in tournaments
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Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but Blizzard does not allow entry fees to SC2 tournaments.
EDIT: Ok, it's been mentioned several times...derp
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Wow this is exactly what I was just going to ask. I'm in the process of trying to put together a LAN event in San Francisco sometime in either late March, April, or even May possibly. And yeah I was wondering if people would pay $25 to play with the potential for like a $1000 prize pool for a 64 man tournament. Now 25x64 doesnt equal out but this is an idea of the prize after the costs of advertising, renting the space, flying in a big name caster and what not. I'm going to create a post asking if people would come out to play at a LAN tourney for $25. I completely agree with you though there are far too sponsors and far to many of us trying to enjoy the game and make a few bucks off it. You are absolutely right!
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On December 14 2010 14:22 a9arnn wrote:
There's no money going into SC2? I think that there's a lot of money going into SC2 compared to BW... like A LOT more. Anyways, there's plenty of tournaments that people can join in and win.
On December 14 2010 14:50 R0YAL wrote:
How can you expect there to be "enough" money in it when the game is so young? You have to give it time bro, the scene is just developing.
I bet years from now people will be spouting the same thing you just spouted and it'll still be about 10 players total that make any money from tournament winnings, and the very few that do, it's less than even minimum wage.
It's incredibly (see: not possible) to make a lot of money living off of pure tournaments. The people that are making money from SC2 are the ones that are coaching, streaming, or already on a team.
It's very tricky, because you have to commit so much to this game with only the CHANCE to make money, so you need to be very good + even more lucky enough to find a team to sponsor you. etc. etc.
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nobody is going to run a tournament without putting 5% into the person whose running its pockets. Simply put too many of these guys are going to file chargebacks once they lose.
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I would love to see <5$ buy ins actually, as a way to really make it not worth it for pros. I'm sure any amauters here would be estatic if they won 50$ from a 1$ per person tourny.
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I don't see how this is different than regular sports. Would a high school benchwarmer earn anything at all? No. He would have to be top of his high school to even be considered for going pro.
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On December 14 2010 14:49 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 14:46 Shakes wrote:
OK talking hypothetically assuming Blizzard would allow this to happen ...
One thing you have to realise is that you're not "infusing cash into SC2", like anything with a rake, you're skimming cash off of SC2. Just like with poker a few people get very rich and most people get a little poorer. To make such a pyramid scheme work you need a community of people who will put money into the system.
I don't really feel the SC2 has that kind of demographic. I'm not sure it would ever have that kind of demographic. It's a lot harder to fool yourself into thinking you're winning in SC2 than poker. One of the things that makes the poker scene work is the variance, even bad players can win on a good day. I don't think SC2 has that "anyone can beat anyone" aspect that poker has. I agree 100%! But I think that would make investing money into SC2 an even MORE exciting prospect - if I train hard and bring my best game to the tournament, I can be rewarded with a cash prize. I don't think buy-in tournaments would "skim" any cash off of Starcraft 2, because it's money that's not currently going into it anyway.
I know where you're coming from, I've heard you whinge on your stream about tournaments not being worthwhile, but you're a guy who hovers around the top 200 somewhere. While that may not make you the Phil Ivey of the SC2 world, it does put you on equivalent the sort of level where if you had that skill in poker you could be a full time pro. I can certainly see why you might enter the tournaments you're proposing.
The problem I see isn't from the good players, it's from the bad players who have to put the money in to pay off the good players. In poker they're plentiful. In SC2, like I said, they're not going to be deluding themselves that they're any good. You can easily play ten thousand hands of poker, come up a decent sized winner but still, in the long run, turn out to be a losing player. Nobody plays even a hundred games of starcraft without having a pretty decent idea of how good they are. So while fish in poker might chip in their money because they don't know they're bad, what mechanism is there in SC2 to put your money in?
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A good idea yes;however there is luck involved in poker which leads to miracle stories such as Chris Moneymaker and a ton of other unknowns who sweeps the field to take down a WPT/WSOP bracelet . This simply will not happen in Sc2. This is why it just simply won't work.
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I wouldn't put $10 to play in a 64 man tourney if oen of these pros who wins every tourney is in them , what would be the point? Might as well chuck the money away.
If you're playing starcraft2 to get rich you're in it for the wrong reasons.
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On December 14 2010 14:24 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 14:22 a9arnn wrote:
There's no money going into SC2? I think that there's a lot of money going into SC2 compared to BW... like A LOT more. Anyways, there's plenty of tournaments that people can join in and win. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or rude, but you say this because you have no concept of what "A LOT" of money is. I'm reading over the four tournies worth of results I pulled and I see the best players in the world competing for $50 prizes. That's 1/20th of my mortgage payment, bro. I need to win 6 of those tournies in first place just to pay for 1 car payment. This is why people stop competing competitively in this game when they get past 25 years old in age, the money is just not there for it.
"a lot of money going into SC2 compared to BW" I know that they still can't make a living off of gaming, that's the problem with all competitive video games, there's not enough of a consistent flow of money like for the "physical" sports. I was just comparing to BW.
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On December 14 2010 14:57 Whiladan wrote:
Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but Blizzard does not allow entry fees to SC2 tournaments.
i'm a little puzzled by this. from their tournament license FAQ:
Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license?
A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.
doesn't this imply that entry fees are acceptable? or does this only apply to LAN entry?
in any case, i like the idea of buy-in tournaments.
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Good find with the tourney rules Likado!
There is one thing though that I've not seen anyone mention yet. Nerves. This can level the playing field a lot. When there is money on the line, especially when you are getting close to winning 1st, a good player can crack under the pressure and play like garbage whereas a lesser player may have nerves of steel. That can give a 'fish' the edge he needs to place high, or even win, a tourney. This isn't a major point but I thought it was worth mentioning.
In addition to that, just like in poker, you aren't just playing the game, you are playing the person. You can use deception, faking, and unique plays to advance. Even top players like IdrA is susceptible to things like this. Remember when he found the build order that toss was planning in gsl 1 on lost temple, the colossus rush? What did he do? The toss faked the colossus rush but rushed voidrays instead, so IdrAs army of roaches was useless. People shouldn't say lesser players have no chance, that's simply not true.
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I fail to see what the problem is with only the top <0.05% of the Starcraft II community making money from tournaments. Look at any other sport. Only the top .05% of people who play football, tennis, baseball, soccer, basketball or hockey make money doing so.
Why is it a problem that Joe Everybody doesn't make money for doing something he's not very good at (compared to the professionals) for fun?
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The opening post puts a strong case for why i'm-going-pro bloggers should keep SC2 as a fun, if serious, hobby and not expect fortune or efame in the near future.
If someone made a chart of SC2 players, their tournament wins, and then the time they spent as a serious amateur or professional in previous games the results would be quite sobering. The vast majority of top players, especially from BW, have been playing competitive RTS for years either as skilled amateurs (Jinro) or professionals (Iron). Any aspiring player should similarly expect to put in several years developing the mindset of how to improve before becoming a consistently good player, and without b-team practice houses, it's very difficult to sustain oneself while pursuing that goal.
Currently the game being somewhat unmapped (or has room for improvement, depending on your view) allows for more upstarts to win or place high in the odd tournament, and coupled with the hype and news coverage of SC2 gives them delusions about 'going pro'.
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On December 14 2010 15:05 Likado wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 14:57 Whiladan wrote:
Not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but Blizzard does not allow entry fees to SC2 tournaments.
i'm a little puzzled by this. from their tournament license FAQ: Show nested quote +Q: Are there any fees associated with acquiring a StarCraft II tournament license?
A: Tournament licenses are generally free. To protect our players, we may require that organizers adhere to additional rules and regulations if the organizer charges entry fees and/or intends to pay out large cash prizes.
doesn't this imply that entry fees are acceptable? or does this only apply to LAN entry? in any case, i like the idea of buy-in tournaments.
IIRC, a tournament license is only free in the case of low cash prizes+no entry fee.
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great idea, I would also add that you could make it "private sign-ups", so that in 5$ tourneys people will not be afraid of signin up because "this player" or "this one" has decided to enter. Players would be revealed like 1-2 days before closing signups etc.
imo we just need more tournaments, and those who sign up is because they think they have a legit shot at doing it, which wouldnt mind them to pay 5-10$ to play a tourney. This can also ensure commentators/hosts to have some money too.
+1 on this idea
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In poker everyone feels like they have a shot because poker is mostly luck. The law of large numbers allows poker pros to be successful. SC2 is more like basketball where someone with more skill will win almost every single time. People might be willing to pay $10 to go to a tournament for a little while, but eventually after the same couple of players win every time they'll stop going.
This happened where I live with free super smash brothers tournaments at the local library. There were a few players who were the SSBM equivalent of 2500 diamond who came to the tournament and everyone else was gold or silver. They trounced every one of us. As the tournaments continued, less and less people came to the SSBM event.
I can understand that everyone wants to make a living playing video games. People just need to be a little more reasonable with their dreams.
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i love this idea and i can't believe theirs 3 page of mostly possitive comments on this already
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EPT
