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Let me start by saying a couple of things. I believe the Zerg is a fine race, mid to late game at least. I honestly don’t believe the current state of ZvT is THAT unfair (at least until Terran learn to utilize Sensor Towers; then the argument of Terran’s lack of mobility will be moot). Zerg has a decent counter for everything (but so does every other race), so what makes Zerg arguably worse than the other races (as so claimed by Idra, many Zerg players, and many off-race players). It is of my opinion, the lack of knowledge regarding enemy base in the early game. Every Zerg players know of the sacrificial Overlord and how it becomes somewhat necessary before Lair tech. Every Protoss and Terran players however also know how to hide their structures. In fact it doesn’t even matter, many-a-times, the sacrificial overlord would be sniped before it finds out anything (important). It is for this reason that many Zerg players tend to just blindly drone up whilst making a decent-sized Zergling/Roach army. This is all fine and dandy until you get Banshee rushed, Void ray rushed, DT rushed, or even Phoenix rushed. By the time the air/cloaked units arrive to your base, there is absolutely nothing the Zerg player can do. The Zerg is a reactionary race, as accepted by many, but the biggest problem is that the Zerg has little idea what to react to in the early stage.
Suggestions:
-A rather abstract idea right now, but the objective is clear: To give Zerg an affordable unit, structure, or upgrade, that gives the Zerg ability to scout well, before the Lair upgrade. Just like how the Terran has Orbital Command or the Protoss has the Observer. Before anybody screams imba, this is just an idea, and if Blizzard has shown us anything, it’s that they have the ability to make anything balance with time. As of right now, Zerg players have almost no way of knowing whether the Terran player is massing MM, building Banshees, and whatnot. It is simply stupid that a Zerg player can only respond accordingly to a chance sacrificial overlord.
-Lower the queen build time and make the spore crawler buildable with a spawning pool, rather than Evolution Chamber. If a Zerg player does happen to spot a Stargate or Starport, a Zerg player should have ample time to respond.
-Maps need to be bigger in general, the rush distance is far too short for most of the current maps, making almost 90% of the online games just a rushfest. I’m sure this has been said thousands of times, but I’ll repeat, iCCup, should have made the SC2 maps. iCCup has a tendency to make maps that are balanced and big (most of their maps give a 45-55% chance of winning to all races played by professionals in SC1).
-Maps need to not have cliffs/ledges along ATLEAST natural expansions if not all expansions. I think maps like Lost Temple is where Zerg QQ really flows as it is so blatantly obviously favoring Terran/Protoss with the ledge at natural. There is almost nothing a Zerg can do against a Medivac drop of Tank+Marines. See Idra vs Silver game 2 for reference.
Let’s face it, Zerg is simple early game, all they really have are attackers with no unique ability early on (and a pitiful anti air known as the queen). Its quite unfair that all Zerg players, even Top Zerg players, are susceptible to losses of the most embarrassing kind to players of much less skill due to “cheese”.
On a final note, I actually gave this post some thought, and I would hope others do as well. Please post reasonable responses.
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lowering the Queen's build time would help me a tone actually, at least in ZvP for sure, i many times die to the P forcing me to get hydras against air and he just goes for a Colossi allin timing push, and yes maps arent very good for zerg either, at least i'm annoyed by most of them as zerg. Lack of scouting, idk, maybe just give the Overlord +30 HP or sg, to last a bit longer. I dont think zerg early game is weak, it's cheesable for sure, but not that weak, i for one have more problems with midgame allins timing pushes
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Is defending vs air really a problem? Almost no one goes air vs zerg other than viking harass which spores don't help with. VRs & Phoenixes are handled by the build Zerg does anyways (hydras) and queens as are banshees for the most part.
As to scouting, ling check-ups and OL saccing isn't really all that chance based, judging by what's at their wall you can usually tell if and where you need to ol sac. I find it to generally be reliable when you scout. The only issue has more to do with being able to scout at all the points you need to scout. Though if you get a lair at a reasonable time you can scout fairly well with an overseer of course. Something like an obs comes out much later than lair anyways (or it should).
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I agree with the scouting for zerg, it's so horrible. I am always blind building but I usually do a ling/roach/muta build. If i see they are getting void rays or battle cruisers ill just pump out however many is necessary of corruptors. I would have a better play style if zerg had something better to scout with.
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Overlords can scout a base pretty well before lair. Also, you don't have to see the starport to know someone is going banshee. You can figure it out by how he walls and by how he spent his money.
I think one of the problems with zerg is there aren't any ranged units until lair. This makes it hard to pressure a wall-in. I think the other problem is that there aren't any units (muta, or lurker in BW) that force the opponent to do things or die. Muta does this fairly well but it doesn't work all the time because he's probably going to have marines and an ebay by default just because barracks units are so strong.
and by "Top Zerg players" you must mean idra.
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The same way most P players rush for the observer to see what a Terran is up to, so should zerg players rush for overseers. Basically after i get my first queen out i tech lair right away to get a overseer in their base. the only (popular) option that gets out quicker is reapers which can usually be scouted at the choke or a fast double gas
Observers are a mid game scouting option, and a Terran player willing to use the first 50 energy on a scan is about the equivalent of saccing an overlord and has about the same chance of scouting anything useful. Another building will only overlap this zerg option and i have no idea what you had in mind.
The build time changes aren't needed, because then you could just throw some static D up right when the Terran moves out, which would make any scouting pointless. the point is to scout what he is doing and then throw them up because you know whats coming.
As for the maps, i do not have enough experience to say anything, although the ledge in LT is a massive pain.
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On August 13 2010 14:04 Logo wrote:
Is defending vs air really a problem? Almost no one goes air vs zerg other than viking harass which spores don't help with. VRs & Phoenixes are handled by the build Zerg does anyways (hydras) and queens as are banshees for the most part.
Isn't that a bit of the problem, forcing Zerg to always go the same tech?
They need to get an FE up to stay up in economy but they also need to get a quick lair for hydras or they just roll over to any air pressure...
The early to mid game seems thin at times. And it shouldn't be. Speedlings, banelings and roaches are all capable of pressure. But if they try to do so, it's pretty much all-in because if they don't tech or expand, they'll get rolled a few minutes later.
On the subject of air, Protoss goes Phoenix. Void rays see some harass/cheese play. Banshees not so much but it happens. You say it yourself: spores don't always help against air. I would like the queen to be a bit more powerful AA or indeed build a bit faster. It would enable Zerg to FE and still get some mobile AA in the queens.
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-Lower the queen build time and make the spore crawler buildable with a spawning pool, rather than Evolution Chamber. If a Zerg player does happen to spot a Stargate or Starport, a Zerg player should have ample time to respond.
Spore crawlers are good for detection only, and detection really shouldn't be that easy for zerg considering how much is invested to get cloaked units. Lowering queen build time has the potential to make spawn larvae come to quickly. Possibly allow queens to be built quickly, but whatever amount of time the build time is reduced by, make it take that much longer to get the energy for the first spawn larvae.
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I really disagree with this being an issue. Z scouting is better than P scouting early game. Terran have the most easy scouting-on-demand but at a cost to resources. Protoss have solid mid-game and late-game scouting. Zerg have good scouting for the entire game with either a drone OR overlord early game, overseer, speedlings, changeling, overlords for mid and late-game.
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Why there are so many "my suggestions for change" threads. I'd rather read what we can do with what we got.
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
Wait, Iccup makes maps? I stopped playing some years ago when iccup was using korean maps?<_<
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iccup uses korean progaming maps made by koreans (obv), they don't make maps
and even then, they aren't always balanced or good, katrina wasn't balanced and matchpoint isn't a good map
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Whoops... How did this get here?
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On August 13 2010 14:04 Logo wrote:
Is defending vs air really a problem?
Early game unpreparedness. yes.
On August 13 2010 14:04 Logo wrote:
As to scouting, ling check-ups and OL saccing isn't really all that chance based, judging by what's at their wall you can usually tell if and where you need to ol sac. I find it to generally be reliable when you scout. The only issue has more to do with being able to scout at all the points you need to scout. Though if you get a lair at a reasonable time you can scout fairly well with an overseer of course. Something like an obs comes out much later than lair anyways (or it should).
Most maps, all it takes are a barracks + tech lab and supply depot to wall off. This supplies no information as it is standard. I find it kind of asinine that at this point I need to tech up in order to scout. A competent Terran can push out with pure marine + tank in the meantime.
On August 13 2010 14:09 Ghin wrote:
and by "Top Zerg players" you must mean idra.
Yes, he is the only notable Zerg player that even voices his opinion.
On August 13 2010 14:49 Chras wrote:
The same way most P players rush for the observer to see what a Terran is up to, so should zerg players rush for overseers. Basically after i get my first queen out i tech lair right away to get a overseer in their base. the only (popular) option that gets out quicker is reapers which can usually be scouted at the choke or a fast double gas
Observers are a mid game scouting option, and a Terran player willing to use the first 50 energy on a scan is about the equivalent of saccing an overlord and has about the same chance of scouting anything useful. Another building will only overlap this zerg option and i have no idea what you had in mind..
What is, this I don't even... Who the heck rushes for overseer lol. You're pretty much begging to be killed by ANY early aggression. Your strategy is unheard of (and for good reason).
And Protoss does not need to scout like Zerg. Protoss can create stalkers instantly to fend off aerial assault amongst other aggression.
Please refrain from suggestions if you've never played Zerg.
On August 13 2010 15:53 Piski wrote:
Why there are so many "my suggestions for change" threads. I'd rather read what we can do with what we got.
There are hundreds many everyday. Check out the TL subforum "Starcraft 2 Strategy".
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I sort of agree with the scouting, but imo our scouting is as good as toss scout.
I very much agree with the ledge thing.
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Seriously, of all the Zerg issues you could choose from to complain about, you choose scouting? Zerg has the most reliable scouting in the game prior to Protoss getting up observers.
Scans are good, but they have a limited range - if something is hidden well you will most likely miss it. An overlord without speed can scout all tech structures 90% of the time if you're not stupid with it.
If you are having trouble getting off a good scout, poke in with units at the wall off at the same time as moving your overlord in from the opposite end of their base. Most of the time they will move their units to the wall off. Buildings have less sight than overlords, so you can always see their buildings without their buildings seeing you as long as their units are elsewhere.
Even if one overlord fails, you should always have at least 2 around their base (I usually have one at natural and one just outside main) so it's not like you can't send in another to see the other half of their base if you're really worried. They're not THAT precious.
As to Zerg needing earlier air defense... Absolutely not (at least not in the ways you're suggesting). 2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers), and any slower air attacks will be scouted by your overlord. If you get killed by air units early in the game then it is most likely your fault, not a flaw in Zerg's design.
I would seriously like to see a replay of you A) overlord scouting pre-lair, and B) getting rushed by air, without holes in your play. These are literally the most gigantor non-issues of Zerg at the moment.
If you're not scouting in a similar fashion to this then that is the reason you're failing:
![[image loading]](http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy353/SwedishMonks/Metalopolis.jpg)
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Main problem i think are those shitty maps. Make new maps, take them from iccup and it will be A LOT better. Also queen build time being decreased, that would really help a ton, at least for me. Scoutinng i think it's not a problem.
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I think if zerg had burrow back at T1, that would be enough to put things right. Same cost and time. It would add a significant number of early options to Zerg play, both offensively and defensively.
I could see it being abused to deny expansions, but I don't think that is any more of a gamebreaker than pylon blocking, proxies, or other cheese tactics. Since the cost is 100/100 at tier 1, the opponent would certainly have time to get static detectors, and mobile detection shouldn't be far behind.
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burrow T1 thats it... This will make toss and terran think b4 they push. becouse right now zerg has to defend. Zerg cannot be agressive early game vs 2 or 4 gate toss or aggressive against MM with stim or fast helion other races can make timing pushes with easy transition to higher tech. While zerg is forced to expand early and react to the enemy build whenever my army move forwad to get somekind of map control It get destroyed.Other solution is queen to be build from larva and not from hatch itself
this will give a little faster lair tech and will open timing window for zerg faster AA or Air attack.
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I think T1 Burrow might be a bit too much... I think the biggest issues are the maps, but being pinholed into a tiny set of safe builds while T opens so many variations really makes Z hard for me however whether that is "imbalanced" or not is arguable. I don't think imbalance would be the right word, because wins are attainable... It just feels so uphill everytime. 
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EPT
