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LOL at people comparing Scan to Overlords, Terrans don't even need mules to win (hell they can win with pretty much 1/2 bases of materials).
Terran gets some very mineral efficient units without spending much gas so losing out on some minerals by not getting Mules is nowhere near the loss of losing a 100 mineral unit/supply for a possible scout vs a guaranteed scout with the scan.
Anyway T1 burrow would be fine and yes having burrowing banelings/zerglings fighting each other would be much more interesting and fun than its current incarnation. Its not like burrow is a particularly powerful ability in the early game anyway.
I think a big problem for Zerg is the build time to get their higher tier units more than anything.
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On August 14 2010 01:24 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals". I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what. Scan costs: 270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise. OR 100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans. Play both sides and you'd understand. When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info.
By your logic, overlord 100 minerals + lost drone = 1000+ minerals since that drone you could have made could be mining 'over time' just like the mule mines 270 'over time'. So am i going to say that overlord costs me 1100 minerals to scout, just like it costs u 270 minerals to scan? No.
I think its you sir who dont understand the different between opportunity cost and cost.
Go back to school
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On August 13 2010 21:30 TerranHater wrote:
Why is everyone saying using SCAN is almost as equivalent as sacking overlord?
it's not seriously
Scan
-How much time does it take to use it? Prolly 1 second or less
-Do you lose food over it? NO
-Is it guaranteed scouting? YES, meaning you WILL mostly likely see what your opponent is doing
-Do you REALLY lose mineral? NO, since you use your energy to use it and it doesn't come directly out of the mineral you currently have
Overlord
-How much time does it take for the overlord to get to the opponent's base? ohhh i don't know... but by the time you get there, it'll prolly die cuz of marine. If P, then no. Later by stalker
-Do you lose food over it? Hell yea
-Is it guaranteed scouting? NO, cuz marine can sack that thing before it even touches the edge of the base
-Do you REALLY lose mineral? yes you dumb bitch, you take exactly 100 mineral directly from my mineral and press s and v to make that shit. and if sacked, then i have to make another one
Overlord scouting 101
- Position your first two overlords of the game out side of the enemy base right, although this is tricky on desert oasis. This way you can quickly sac them if needed. takes no more than 15 seconds to get a good scout off.
- Preemptively make another overlord so you don't get supply blocked, not that hard.
- One marine will not kill an overlord fast enough to deny scouting. Ten marines will. But could that mean hes going bio?
One dead overlord is 100 minerals and one larvae lost.
One scan is the loss of a 270 minerals per minute spike.
I would say this is balanced.
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Scouting with a sacrificial overlord is effective because, even if it gets shot down, you will at least know how many marines/sentries/stalkers there are. And if you don't see anything, expect some sort of all-in.
Terran has it the exact same way. Zerg is capable of hiding buildings buy spewing creep through overlords, and Protoss rarely ever puts its buildings in an easy-to-see spot. Scans are sacrificial because thats a lot of time without a mule.
Protoss is kept in the dark until they have an observer or a phoenix/hallucinated phoenix, which is pretty far into the game.
Terran early pushes get rolled by roaches/zerglings/sunkens.
Protoss early pushes can be countered by getting sunkens, some zerglings, and rushing hydralisks.
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Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage.
To be on even terms, Zerg units MUST have superior upgrades.
Why many Zergs do bad is they have been caught up in this "we're on the same number of bases so it's an even fight" mentality. If you are going to play that game, win fast. As Zerg, you have to have a superior economy at all times to have a prayer in hell of winning. This is not imbalance, this is Zerg. Out macro, out produce, out perform, and win. Zerg is decidedly the hardest race to play for a reason.
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On August 14 2010 02:06 Aldair wrote:
Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage.
To be on even terms, Zerg units MUST have superior upgrades.
Why many Zergs do bad is they have been caught up in this "we're on the same number of bases so it's an even fight" mentality. If you are going to play that game, win fast. As Zerg, you have to have a superior economy at all times to have a prayer in hell of winning. This is not imbalance, this is Zerg. Out macro, out produce, out perform, and win. Zerg is decidedly the hardest race to play for a reason.
Your FE pretty much keeps you on par with terran 1 base due to his mules, until you have a lot of drones. im sure 3 vs 2 base is equal as well assuming the 1st isnt mined out.
While i get the whole outmacro idea, the mules just make it retarded to do so. especially when your trying to macro and get drone count and base count up but hes pumping out units and can attack anything at any time and pretty much kill it.
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On August 13 2010 17:17 Motiva wrote:I think T1 Burrow might be a bit too much... I think the biggest issues are the maps, but being pinholed into a tiny set of safe builds while T opens so many variations really makes Z hard for me however whether that is "imbalanced" or not is arguable. I don't think imbalance would be the right word, because wins are attainable... It just feels so uphill everytime. 
I think you're right about how much difference map making could be. That said, I'd like it if all the races had some way of abusing terrain, at different times of the game, such that map makers don't need to build maps that coddle zerg, simply because they are so vulnerable to terrain abuse.
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only problem i have with early game Z (just like overall balance) are the maps. the vast majority is plain shit and keeps Z from getting into the game early.
dont think ive lost a single pvz on blistering so far and evrytime im z on caverns i facepalm.
sad thing is that most people dont realise that and just blindly blame whatever for huge "imbalances" after they lose without even trying to understand what the reason for that is.
On August 14 2010 02:24 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:06 Aldair wrote:
Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage.
To be on even terms, Zerg units MUST have superior upgrades.
Why many Zergs do bad is they have been caught up in this "we're on the same number of bases so it's an even fight" mentality. If you are going to play that game, win fast. As Zerg, you have to have a superior economy at all times to have a prayer in hell of winning. This is not imbalance, this is Zerg. Out macro, out produce, out perform, and win. Zerg is decidedly the hardest race to play for a reason. Your FE pretty much keeps you on par with terran 1 base due to his mules, until you have a lot of drones. im sure 3 vs 2 base is equal as well assuming the 1st isnt mined out. While i get the whole outmacro idea, the mules just make it retarded to do so. especially when your trying to macro and get drone count and base count up but hes pumping out units and can attack anything at any time and pretty much kill it.
mules keep T up with the superior drone production/expanding of Z. works both ways. if you cant balance drone/unit production its your fault.
but you said before that scans are free(and at the same time assume T spends all energy on mules) and made some shit up about overlord scouting. guess you just are a insanely biased guy that complains for the sake of complaining.
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On August 13 2010 14:09 Ghin wrote:
Overlords can scout a base pretty well before lair. Also, you don't have to see the starport to know someone is going banshee. You can figure it out by how he walls and by how he spent his money.
I think one of the problems with zerg is there aren't any ranged units until lair. This makes it hard to pressure a wall-in. I think the other problem is that there aren't any units (muta, or lurker in BW) that force the opponent to do things or die. Muta does this fairly well but it doesn't work all the time because he's probably going to have marines and an ebay by default just because barracks units are so strong.
and by "Top Zerg players" you must mean idra.
It's funny, your first paragraph is so completey wrong it's appauling, yet the idea that leads the second paragraph is both extremely accurate and overlooked.
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On August 14 2010 03:24 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:only problem i have with early game Z (just like overall balance) are the maps. the vast majority is plain shit and keeps Z from getting into the game early. dont think ive lost a single pvz on blistering so far and evrytime im z on caverns i facepalm. sad thing is that most people dont realise that and just blindly blame whatever for huge "imbalances" after they lose without even trying to understand what the reason for that is. Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:24 tacrats wrote:On August 14 2010 02:06 Aldair wrote:
Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage.
To be on even terms, Zerg units MUST have superior upgrades.
Why many Zergs do bad is they have been caught up in this "we're on the same number of bases so it's an even fight" mentality. If you are going to play that game, win fast. As Zerg, you have to have a superior economy at all times to have a prayer in hell of winning. This is not imbalance, this is Zerg. Out macro, out produce, out perform, and win. Zerg is decidedly the hardest race to play for a reason. Your FE pretty much keeps you on par with terran 1 base due to his mules, until you have a lot of drones. im sure 3 vs 2 base is equal as well assuming the 1st isnt mined out. While i get the whole outmacro idea, the mules just make it retarded to do so. especially when your trying to macro and get drone count and base count up but hes pumping out units and can attack anything at any time and pretty much kill it. mules keep T up with the superior drone production/expanding of Z. works both ways. if you cant balance drone/unit production its your fault. but you said before that scans are free(and at the same time assume T spends all energy on mules) and made some shit up about overlord scouting. guess you just are a insanely biased guy that complains for the sake of complaining.
I dont have a problem with zerg scouting at all. This isnt my thread. I think its fine. So no idea what you think i am complaining about.
How is it balanced that a zerg has to macro perfectly and expand when all a T has to do is call down mules with a click of a button to keep up? hint, its not. there isnt a threat of omg the zerg is expanding i must contain, like there was in BW. There is no risk of a 1 basing terran turtling against a 2 base zerg in terms of getting too behind in economy due to mules and wont have to worry about losing a battle because their army will be stronger. You shouldn't be able to have both. mule collection needs to be nerfed.
I can balance drone/unit production fine. Balance as much as you want terran is going to have an strong econ and probably a better army regardless of what you do or hes noob.
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On August 13 2010 16:38 Swede wrote:
As to Zerg needing earlier air defense... Absolutely not (at least not in the ways you're suggesting). 2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)
Hmm? Banshees and Void Rays always come in threes. If you think 2 queens can fend it off, I'd recommend you test it out now.
Guys, quit talking about t1 burrow, that isn't going to change a damn thing. And quit talking about MULEs, it has of no relevance in this thread.
The point of this thread is mostly to note how susceptible Zerg is to cheese and how the currents maps suck. Can we discuss that instead?
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I just want a unit that can attack air in T1 so I don't have to rush to lair just so I won't die to some void ray rush or banshees. And don't tell me queens do the trick, because they don't I could make 3-4 queens and I can handle banshees or voidrays early, but if he drops me with a lot of marines those 4 queens will just end up being almost useless.
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On August 14 2010 09:04 Ksyper wrote:
I just want a unit that can attack air in T1 so I don't have to rush to lair just so I won't die to some void ray rush or banshees. And don't tell me queens do the trick, because they don't I could make 3-4 queens and I can handle banshees or voidrays early, but if he drops me with a lot of marines those 4 queens will just end up being almost useless.
Would You like some Infested Terrans?
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IMO "Current State of" or "State of" topics should meet the same fate as "Serious Discussion of" topics.
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On August 14 2010 01:24 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals". I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what. Scan costs: 270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise. OR 100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans. Play both sides and you'd understand. When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info.
A mule doesnt get you 270 minerals.. It gets you 270 minerals faster, and really towards the mid game when you have about 2-3 OC, you don't NEED constant mules, constant scans on the other hand become much more valuable so stop shit balling about how T is losing opportunity minerals when P and Z have to actually mine with our workers and are at a disadvantage the instant you start muling.
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Now as to what I actually wanted to say; Zerg really needs 3 major things done and it will be on par with the other races.
1) some anti air unit in T1 stages. IDC if it forces the hydra down to teir 1 and roach to teir 2, or if zerg gets an entirely different unit. Zerg NEEDS some range unit in the early game that actually makes a early VR/Banshee/w/e a harassment and not a gg-style attack pre-lair. Even if a zerg hard techs to a lair a banshee/VR will be there before the building to actually make the unit (be it hydra or muta) finishes.
2) Some unit that does splash damage in teir 1-2. Banelings just dont replace lurkers in this aspect unless you have a ridiculous amount so they all dont die before they reach a terran bio-ball or the stalkers in a P timing push. For god sakes fine dont put in the lurker, but give us SOME splash unit that can be used for strong defense and somewhat ok offense. Hell not even the fungal growth is good at all when compared to the lurker as it only does a measly 30 something damage whereas a HT can use storm that deals 80 damage.... what the hell?
3)Holy jesus zerg needs cheaper units. Zerg use to be all about cheap, massable effective units. But in sc2 it seems they took a drastic alternative path. I guarantee you had the roach been a 1 food unit again, or if the hydra was a little cheaper zerg wouldn't have as hard of a time as they do now against mech. Hell even the unit like the corrupter... seriously why the hell does zerg have that... thing? Scourge was all they needed to counter capital ships and then use mutas to finish up the rubble and it worked brilliantly because they we're cheap, massable, and although weak they did their job. Seriously what the hell happened to my airborn torpedoes?!
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Whow you are a genious! Now I can scout everything with slow moving OLs!
Well except ANY player that actually places supply depots / pylons around his base. Any decent Terran player should stop OLs from scouting anything vital by just building the base correctly. Especially on maps with large starting areas
Your pre-lair overlord should arrive when they have 2 - 3 pylons/depots. Most times they will be used in a wall off or (for protoss) making sure gateways/cores are safe from pylon snipes. Basically, 90% of the time, there will be no spotter building at the point of scouting. But if there is (and I mentioned this initially), overlords have greater sight than all buildings, so if it's a not a tech structure then just move around it. Once you get to a certain point there will be no stopping your overlord quickly enough short of mass marines (and if they have mass marines, they went mass marines = successful scout).
There will be spotter buildings later on, hence why you will need overlord speed/an overseer at that point, but before that time slow overlords do fine.
People who are complaining are doing it wrong.
On August 14 2010 09:00 HardcoreBilly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 16:38 Swede wrote:
As to Zerg needing earlier air defense... Absolutely not (at least not in the ways you're suggesting). 2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)
Hmm? Banshees and Void Rays always come in threes. If you think 2 queens can fend it off, I'd recommend you test it out now.
I don't think that. Hence, "2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)"
In cases where they do stop to gather, you should always scout it if it's not proxied. Even then, it's pretty easy to sense a cheese like that just by seeing how little there is in their base (if it's proxied). Personally I recommend always getting 3 (or more) queens as quickly as you safely can.
I'm not saying I never lose to air rushes. But when I do it's almost always my fault.
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On August 14 2010 10:21 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +Whow you are a genious! Now I can scout everything with slow moving OLs!
Well except ANY player that actually places supply depots / pylons around his base. Any decent Terran player should stop OLs from scouting anything vital by just building the base correctly. Especially on maps with large starting areas Your pre-lair overlord should arrive when they have 2 - 3 pylons/depots. Most times they will be used in a wall off or (for protoss) making sure gateways/cores are safe from pylon snipes. Basically, 90% of the time, there will be no spotter building at the point of scouting. But if there is (and I mentioned this initially), overlords have greater sight than all buildings, so if it's a not a tech structure then just move around it. Once you get to a certain point there will be no stopping your overlord quickly enough short of mass marines (and if they have mass marines, they went mass marines = successful scout).
For the sake of argument, I'll go along with you. Lets say you do get an overlord into the opponent's base (in this case, Terran). You don't see anything because he's good at concealing and a place like blistering sands offers a wide area of building placements. All he needs are 3 Marines to pop your Overlord(s). Tell me, what have you discovered from that little venture? A smart Terran knows how to be deceptive, and even if he does show his army of marines, he can easily be teching to banshees, as Marines are dirt cheap.
On a 4-player map, this becomes increasingly difficult as you are more than likely going to scout in the wrong direction.
Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:00 HardcoreBilly wrote:On August 13 2010 16:38 Swede wrote:
As to Zerg needing earlier air defense... Absolutely not (at least not in the ways you're suggesting). 2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)
Hmm? Banshees and Void Rays always come in threes. If you think 2 queens can fend it off, I'd recommend you test it out now. I don't think that. Hence, "2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)" In cases where they do stop to gather, you should always scout it if it's not proxied. Even then, it's pretty easy to sense a cheese like that just by seeing how little there is in their base (if it's proxied). Personally I recommend always getting 3 (or more) queens as quickly as you safely can.
Well I know that (seriously, go test it out). And once again, for the sake of argument (since knowledge Terran and Protoss players tend to mass up to 3), lets say the Protoss or Terran does attack with a solo Void Ray/Banshee. The Void Ray can destroy one queen, but if the player sees two, then he can easily retreat, get shield up/repair, and ready for a second strike.
I really don't see why you're so inclined to believe overlord scouting is so good. The fact is that most maps has a large well-guarded main thats only exit is a ramp, and the Overlord will see a lot less than 40% of the main by the time it gets sniped.
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The void ray is so easy to exploit with that charge effect. Blizzard made it so that it's harder to get to charge 3 but then we just feed off of buildings first (luckily a dest rock, the other ray, or a hallu).
You can even feed off far debris, and then to keep your charge, you move and attack each other as friendly fire. Insanely effective.
"Oh but if you go early voids you are vulnerable to a massive ground push."
I don't think so, buddy. Forcefield for the win.
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On August 14 2010 01:24 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals". I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what. Scan costs: 270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise. OR 100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans. Play both sides and you'd understand. When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info.
REALLY? you cant be serious right? so using a scan is the same thing as loosing 8 supply? its not at all the same thing, not in the slightest. u may have lost POTENTIAL money from that mule because u lost a scan but zerg is loosing DIRECT money along with 8 supply. it only costs u ENERGY to make that "270 minerals over time". it only costs you ENERGY to get that scout in. for zerg it costs direct minerals and 8 supply if ur going to sac a ovie for scouting and ur not even guranteed a scout in unless you have overlord speed which comes in late compared to scan and it costs money and gas.
you first have to get a lair which costs 150/100. then u need 100/100 gas to get the speed upgrade. a total of 250 minerals and 200 gas to get a effective overlord scout where as terran only need to spend 150 minerals for orbital command. and ONE mule gets u all of that 150 minerals back with profit minerals to spare. and you really think its the same as risking a overlord scout?
with mules ur basically getting free money because it only cost energy to make a mule. yes zerg has spawn larva but it still costs them 200 minerals to make those 4 drones from those 4 extra larva where as terran it cost 50 energy to make 270 minerals? dont BS around the issue dude. u can easily afford to not use a scan over a mule.
a terran can loose every single scv he has and have 0 minerals in the bank and still stay in the game. and u know why? because mules can do that shit for u. mules is basically free money.
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On August 14 2010 20:36 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 01:24 oxxo wrote:On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals". I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what. Scan costs: 270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise. OR 100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans. Play both sides and you'd understand. When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info. REALLY? you cant be serious right? so using a scan is the same thing as loosing 8 supply? its not at all the same thing, not in the slightest. u may have lost POTENTIAL money from that mule because u lost a scan but zerg is loosing DIRECT money along with 8 supply. it only costs u ENERGY to make that "270 minerals over time". it only costs you ENERGY to get that scout in. for zerg it costs direct minerals and 8 supply if ur going to sac a ovie for scouting and ur not even guranteed a scout in unless you have overlord speed which comes in late compared to scan and it costs money and gas. you first have to get a lair which costs 150/100. then u need 100/100 gas to get the speed upgrade. a total of 250 minerals and 200 gas to get a effective overlord scout where as terran only need to spend 150 minerals for orbital command. and ONE mule gets u all of that 150 minerals back with profit minerals to spare. and you really think its the same as risking a overlord scout? with mules ur basically getting free money because it only cost energy to make a mule. yes zerg has spawn larva but it still costs them 200 minerals to make those 4 drones from those 4 extra larva where as terran it cost 50 energy to make 270 minerals? dont BS around the issue dude. u can easily afford to not use a scan over a mule. a terran can loose every single scv he has and have 0 minerals in the bank and still stay in the game. and u know why? because mules can do that shit for u. mules is basically free money.
I think people are forgetting the fact that terran has the slowest worker production rate in the game, P can chronoboost probes, Zerg has larvae mechanic, terran has mules, P + Z get workers faster, T gets mules to compensate, 1 mule is really equivalent to an extra 3-4 workers(?) which T will be down by approximately during the beginning. T also has to invest more money into production buildings meaning that while its not a direct cost it is an indirect cost because it then slows the terran down if he uses scans indiscriminately which then requires planning on when and where to use the scan to max its effectiveness. the same can be said of OL saccing and positioning, it requires forethought, my first OLs i send to diff spots around my opponents base/the map so that when i do need to scout they are already in position, also if i do need to sac 1 i build another OL before i send it in so that i don't supply block myself( i honestly thought this would be common sense). This is a direct 100 min cost vs indirect 270 min cost, they both require forethought and planning. I do agree that scan is significantly easier but any less costly i doubt.
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EPT
