EPTCurrent State of Early Game Zerg - Page 4
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Samus
Australia47 Posts
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
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HardcoreBilly
United States222 Posts
And GG.win, in what way? Please link at least another thread that is at all similar to mine. And while your at it, please explain how my suggestions are bad. | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
Sure there is a difference, but it isn't 170 minerals worth. Zerg do not have problems scouting compared to the other races, if anyone needs a buff in scouting it is early Protoss who play almost completely blind for the early game. If you want to help Zerg early make it so roaches are more viable. The strats Zerg struggle with early are almost always things that roaches can beat. Either make the building cheaper or make the unit a little stronger(not 1 pop though, that really was OP). After that change see how things change early game and move from there. | ||
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Tritonus
Denmark125 Posts
Besides, a scan is instant and and you see a large area, while slow overlord scouting takes planning, and it's not even guaranteed that you get into his base. If MULEs don't actually mine the minerals, but they somehow magically appear in their robotic arms, disregard this post. | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
That is like saying chronoboost doesn't do anything because the units 'would have built eventually anyway'. Using a scan costs the Terran more in real game sense than Zerg losing an overlord and might cost them more than Zerg losing 2 overlords though that one can be tricky since you have to place a value on the larva. | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
50/50 like it was before, and 80 second research time. Or Allow the Overseerer to be built Pre-Lair. Make it more expensive, 150 Minerals/100 Gas, as opposed to its 50 mineras/100 gas cost now. Just ideas. | ||
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Tritonus
Denmark125 Posts
On August 15 2010 03:58 EnderCN wrote: They have to mine the 270 minerals but they ignore SCV so you still use them on a saturated base. I don't lose very many games because I ran out of mineral patches though. If one Terran mules and the other doesn't the Terran who doesn't mule is going to fall way behind on econ regardless of the fact the minerals 'would have been mined anyway'. That is like saying chronoboost doesn't do anything because the units 'would have built eventually anyway'. Using a scan costs the Terran more in real game sense than Zerg losing an overlord and might cost them more than Zerg losing 2 overlords though that one can be tricky since you have to place a value on the larva. I'm not saying it doesn't do anything, I'm saying it doesn't cost anything. It's probably just as bad, if not worse, if you don't use the scan. But then again, as terran you don't HAVE to scan, because you have reapers, hellions for good scouting, and as someone else pointed out, a barracks is even flying faster than an overlord, has more hp, doesn't take up larva and can't potentially supply block you. It's about options. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On August 15 2010 00:26 TangJuice wrote: I think people are forgetting the fact that terran has the slowest worker production rate in the game, P can chronoboost probes, Zerg has larvae mechanic, terran has mules, P + Z get workers faster, T gets mules to compensate, 1 mule is really equivalent to an extra 3-4 workers(?) which T will be down by approximately during the beginning. T also has to invest more money into production buildings meaning that while its not a direct cost it is an indirect cost because it then slows the terran down if he uses scans indiscriminately which then requires planning on when and where to use the scan to max its effectiveness. the same can be said of OL saccing and positioning, it requires forethought, my first OLs i send to diff spots around my opponents base/the map so that when i do need to scout they are already in position, also if i do need to sac 1 i build another OL before i send it in so that i don't supply block myself( i honestly thought this would be common sense). This is a direct 100 min cost vs indirect 270 min cost, they both require forethought and planning. I do agree that scan is significantly easier but any less costly i doubt. thats true if the bases are un saturated, but a equally saturated base a terran will easilly pull ahead of both a toss and zerg in economy because of mules. you cant ignore that fact that its giving u free extra minerals and as a result a terran will pull ahead of toss and zerg in eco. all chrono boost and inject larva for zerg and toss does is gets a mineral line saturated faster. it doesnt give u extra minerals. terran gets there mineral line saturated slower but once they do have equally saturated bases terran WILL pull ahead in income. just watch a game and look at the income tab in a replay when ur playing against a good terran that uses mules constantly. u will notice that ur income is fairly equal early on and then once both bases become saturated he will start to spike up in income. | ||
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Macavity
United States83 Posts
On August 14 2010 02:06 Aldair wrote: Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy. Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage. All of the problems with the Zerg can be summed up with Blizzard's philosophy for the Zerg to be 'swarmy'. This is why the units are so weak. This is why Zerg must 'get ahead' in number of bases. Zerg can definitely win games. But is this enjoyable? Do you guys like droning as much as possible and just massing units to attack move? When we look at the issues behind the Zerg, people point to different details. But I think the problem is the philosophy behind the Zerg which has been the cause of turning the Zerg into feeling different than what they were in Brood War. In Brood War, Zerg were aggressive. In Starcraft 2, the only time Zerg is 'aggressive' is when they are 'cheesing'. This points that a radical change occurred to the Zerg from Brood War and should be unmade. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On August 15 2010 13:28 Macavity wrote: All of the problems with the Zerg can be summed up with Blizzard's philosophy for the Zerg to be 'swarmy'. This is why the units are so weak. This is why Zerg must 'get ahead' in number of bases. Zerg can definitely win games. But is this enjoyable? Do you guys like droning as much as possible and just massing units to attack move? When we look at the issues behind the Zerg, people point to different details. But I think the problem is the philosophy behind the Zerg which has been the cause of turning the Zerg into feeling different than what they were in Brood War. In Brood War, Zerg were aggressive. In Starcraft 2, the only time Zerg is 'aggressive' is when they are 'cheesing'. This points that a radical change occurred to the Zerg from Brood War and should be unmade. thats the thing, zerg doesnt feel swarmy at all after the nerf to roaches making them 2 supply. our army is now weak AND small. both terran and toss can just pretty much atk all of our units at once with AoE siege range units like siege tanks, colossus, storm, hellions, etc etc. and what splash dmg unit zerg has? banelings. thats all we get. a unit that has the same hp has zerglings and are slow as fuck on top of being a melee unit. i myself have no problem with the "swarmy" feel of zerg, infact thats one of the reasons i love the race. but the thing is that "swarmy" feeling is not there at all. our army size is small, our units are weak, our spell casters are sub par, and we have no "infestation or disabling" abilities like what was intended with the corruptors and infestors. i think that is the real problem for zerg. but i definably agree zerg needs more units to be aggressive with. thats another main problem for zerg. our main and key units are hydras, roaches, and maybe some lings. and after that we transition into either ultras or broodlords. thats pretty much the only units we use from start to finish because its all we have. terran and toss has a HUGE variety of units to choose from compared to zerg and tbh it should be the other way around. zerg should have a huge variety of units to choose from since they are basically a insect like race that infects many different other races to "assimilate" into there own race. so the question i REALLY want to ask blizz is why is the zerg so lacking?. | ||
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Mentor
Germany219 Posts
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Mentor
Germany219 Posts
On August 15 2010 02:49 EnderCN wrote: "Sure there is a difference, but it isn't 170 minerals worth. Zerg do not have problems scouting compared to the other races, if anyone needs a buff in scouting it is early Protoss who play almost completely blind for the early game." In PvZ your scouts are called Zealots ands Probes. Putting pressure on the Zerg early reveals soi much information on their openings. And it's not like Zerg have many crazy openings in the first place. In PvT however I totally agree with playing blind for the first 6 Minutes of the game. BUT in contrast to Zerg, the Protoss are able to get a rock solid unit composition just from their gateways. They have two ranged units that can hit air, a strong melee tank that deals alot of dmg and can reduce incoming ranged damage by quite a bit. | ||
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lindn
Sweden833 Posts
1. better maps, blizz maps are horrible, blizzard should have someone else making them that knows stuff 2. cheaper lair upgrades, overlord speed back to 50/50, burrow back to 50/50 and IMO spire cost to 100/100 (mutas aren't great, we can all agree on that. only time you'd win just because of mutas are if your opponents are horrible and fails to put up turrets/guards/protoss tower around their base) mutas are GREAT for map control, for scouting and sometimes harassing. cheaper spire = can afford it on 2 bases to gain some additional map control apart from having lings run around the map. 3. have blizzard polls coming up somewhere voting which maps should be added to the official blizz map pool? 4. make roaches 1 food and nerf something else instead. 1 more supply cost has a greater impact than something like 5-10 less damage would TBH | ||
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Lach_mc
Australia18 Posts
and yet still they dribble on about how they have creep tumors. easy enough to spread but also destroy again arent viable near any BASE or to scout anything other than potential army movement Zergs lack of early game variety allows the other races later game less risk scouting options more feesable since they can vividly predict what zerg is doing. since zergs dont have 1 unit counters to everything t and p possess their intel must be provided earlier in game. me being a fulltime toss feel nothing for sympathy for all the saps that regardless of the gas steals and olord snipes still dont see that robo that i use to collosi time push them. OH NO THEY HAVE MUTAS. let me tech blink and warp stalkers for the gg, i dont like playing serg to boring. to easy 700 points. di player | ||
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