|
Let me start by saying a couple of things. I believe the Zerg is a fine race, mid to late game at least. I honestly don’t believe the current state of ZvT is THAT unfair (at least until Terran learn to utilize Sensor Towers; then the argument of Terran’s lack of mobility will be moot). Zerg has a decent counter for everything (but so does every other race), so what makes Zerg arguably worse than the other races (as so claimed by Idra, many Zerg players, and many off-race players). It is of my opinion, the lack of knowledge regarding enemy base in the early game. Every Zerg players know of the sacrificial Overlord and how it becomes somewhat necessary before Lair tech. Every Protoss and Terran players however also know how to hide their structures. In fact it doesn’t even matter, many-a-times, the sacrificial overlord would be sniped before it finds out anything (important). It is for this reason that many Zerg players tend to just blindly drone up whilst making a decent-sized Zergling/Roach army. This is all fine and dandy until you get Banshee rushed, Void ray rushed, DT rushed, or even Phoenix rushed. By the time the air/cloaked units arrive to your base, there is absolutely nothing the Zerg player can do. The Zerg is a reactionary race, as accepted by many, but the biggest problem is that the Zerg has little idea what to react to in the early stage.
Suggestions:
-A rather abstract idea right now, but the objective is clear: To give Zerg an affordable unit, structure, or upgrade, that gives the Zerg ability to scout well, before the Lair upgrade. Just like how the Terran has Orbital Command or the Protoss has the Observer. Before anybody screams imba, this is just an idea, and if Blizzard has shown us anything, it’s that they have the ability to make anything balance with time. As of right now, Zerg players have almost no way of knowing whether the Terran player is massing MM, building Banshees, and whatnot. It is simply stupid that a Zerg player can only respond accordingly to a chance sacrificial overlord.
-Lower the queen build time and make the spore crawler buildable with a spawning pool, rather than Evolution Chamber. If a Zerg player does happen to spot a Stargate or Starport, a Zerg player should have ample time to respond.
-Maps need to be bigger in general, the rush distance is far too short for most of the current maps, making almost 90% of the online games just a rushfest. I’m sure this has been said thousands of times, but I’ll repeat, iCCup, should have made the SC2 maps. iCCup has a tendency to make maps that are balanced and big (most of their maps give a 45-55% chance of winning to all races played by professionals in SC1).
-Maps need to not have cliffs/ledges along ATLEAST natural expansions if not all expansions. I think maps like Lost Temple is where Zerg QQ really flows as it is so blatantly obviously favoring Terran/Protoss with the ledge at natural. There is almost nothing a Zerg can do against a Medivac drop of Tank+Marines. See Idra vs Silver game 2 for reference.
Let’s face it, Zerg is simple early game, all they really have are attackers with no unique ability early on (and a pitiful anti air known as the queen). Its quite unfair that all Zerg players, even Top Zerg players, are susceptible to losses of the most embarrassing kind to players of much less skill due to “cheese”.
On a final note, I actually gave this post some thought, and I would hope others do as well. Please post reasonable responses.
|
lowering the Queen's build time would help me a tone actually, at least in ZvP for sure, i many times die to the P forcing me to get hydras against air and he just goes for a Colossi allin timing push, and yes maps arent very good for zerg either, at least i'm annoyed by most of them as zerg. Lack of scouting, idk, maybe just give the Overlord +30 HP or sg, to last a bit longer. I dont think zerg early game is weak, it's cheesable for sure, but not that weak, i for one have more problems with midgame allins timing pushes
|
Is defending vs air really a problem? Almost no one goes air vs zerg other than viking harass which spores don't help with. VRs & Phoenixes are handled by the build Zerg does anyways (hydras) and queens as are banshees for the most part.
As to scouting, ling check-ups and OL saccing isn't really all that chance based, judging by what's at their wall you can usually tell if and where you need to ol sac. I find it to generally be reliable when you scout. The only issue has more to do with being able to scout at all the points you need to scout. Though if you get a lair at a reasonable time you can scout fairly well with an overseer of course. Something like an obs comes out much later than lair anyways (or it should).
|
I agree with the scouting for zerg, it's so horrible. I am always blind building but I usually do a ling/roach/muta build. If i see they are getting void rays or battle cruisers ill just pump out however many is necessary of corruptors. I would have a better play style if zerg had something better to scout with.
|
Overlords can scout a base pretty well before lair. Also, you don't have to see the starport to know someone is going banshee. You can figure it out by how he walls and by how he spent his money.
I think one of the problems with zerg is there aren't any ranged units until lair. This makes it hard to pressure a wall-in. I think the other problem is that there aren't any units (muta, or lurker in BW) that force the opponent to do things or die. Muta does this fairly well but it doesn't work all the time because he's probably going to have marines and an ebay by default just because barracks units are so strong.
and by "Top Zerg players" you must mean idra.
|
The same way most P players rush for the observer to see what a Terran is up to, so should zerg players rush for overseers. Basically after i get my first queen out i tech lair right away to get a overseer in their base. the only (popular) option that gets out quicker is reapers which can usually be scouted at the choke or a fast double gas
Observers are a mid game scouting option, and a Terran player willing to use the first 50 energy on a scan is about the equivalent of saccing an overlord and has about the same chance of scouting anything useful. Another building will only overlap this zerg option and i have no idea what you had in mind.
The build time changes aren't needed, because then you could just throw some static D up right when the Terran moves out, which would make any scouting pointless. the point is to scout what he is doing and then throw them up because you know whats coming.
As for the maps, i do not have enough experience to say anything, although the ledge in LT is a massive pain.
|
On August 13 2010 14:04 Logo wrote:
Is defending vs air really a problem? Almost no one goes air vs zerg other than viking harass which spores don't help with. VRs & Phoenixes are handled by the build Zerg does anyways (hydras) and queens as are banshees for the most part.
Isn't that a bit of the problem, forcing Zerg to always go the same tech?
They need to get an FE up to stay up in economy but they also need to get a quick lair for hydras or they just roll over to any air pressure...
The early to mid game seems thin at times. And it shouldn't be. Speedlings, banelings and roaches are all capable of pressure. But if they try to do so, it's pretty much all-in because if they don't tech or expand, they'll get rolled a few minutes later.
On the subject of air, Protoss goes Phoenix. Void rays see some harass/cheese play. Banshees not so much but it happens. You say it yourself: spores don't always help against air. I would like the queen to be a bit more powerful AA or indeed build a bit faster. It would enable Zerg to FE and still get some mobile AA in the queens.
|
-Lower the queen build time and make the spore crawler buildable with a spawning pool, rather than Evolution Chamber. If a Zerg player does happen to spot a Stargate or Starport, a Zerg player should have ample time to respond.
Spore crawlers are good for detection only, and detection really shouldn't be that easy for zerg considering how much is invested to get cloaked units. Lowering queen build time has the potential to make spawn larvae come to quickly. Possibly allow queens to be built quickly, but whatever amount of time the build time is reduced by, make it take that much longer to get the energy for the first spawn larvae.
|
I really disagree with this being an issue. Z scouting is better than P scouting early game. Terran have the most easy scouting-on-demand but at a cost to resources. Protoss have solid mid-game and late-game scouting. Zerg have good scouting for the entire game with either a drone OR overlord early game, overseer, speedlings, changeling, overlords for mid and late-game.
|
Why there are so many "my suggestions for change" threads. I'd rather read what we can do with what we got.
|
Dominican Republic463 Posts
Wait, Iccup makes maps? I stopped playing some years ago when iccup was using korean maps?<_<
|
iccup uses korean progaming maps made by koreans (obv), they don't make maps
and even then, they aren't always balanced or good, katrina wasn't balanced and matchpoint isn't a good map
|
Whoops... How did this get here?
X
|
On August 13 2010 14:04 Logo wrote:
Is defending vs air really a problem?
Early game unpreparedness. yes.
On August 13 2010 14:04 Logo wrote:
As to scouting, ling check-ups and OL saccing isn't really all that chance based, judging by what's at their wall you can usually tell if and where you need to ol sac. I find it to generally be reliable when you scout. The only issue has more to do with being able to scout at all the points you need to scout. Though if you get a lair at a reasonable time you can scout fairly well with an overseer of course. Something like an obs comes out much later than lair anyways (or it should).
Most maps, all it takes are a barracks + tech lab and supply depot to wall off. This supplies no information as it is standard. I find it kind of asinine that at this point I need to tech up in order to scout. A competent Terran can push out with pure marine + tank in the meantime.
On August 13 2010 14:09 Ghin wrote:
and by "Top Zerg players" you must mean idra.
Yes, he is the only notable Zerg player that even voices his opinion.
On August 13 2010 14:49 Chras wrote:
The same way most P players rush for the observer to see what a Terran is up to, so should zerg players rush for overseers. Basically after i get my first queen out i tech lair right away to get a overseer in their base. the only (popular) option that gets out quicker is reapers which can usually be scouted at the choke or a fast double gas
Observers are a mid game scouting option, and a Terran player willing to use the first 50 energy on a scan is about the equivalent of saccing an overlord and has about the same chance of scouting anything useful. Another building will only overlap this zerg option and i have no idea what you had in mind..
What is, this I don't even... Who the heck rushes for overseer lol. You're pretty much begging to be killed by ANY early aggression. Your strategy is unheard of (and for good reason).
And Protoss does not need to scout like Zerg. Protoss can create stalkers instantly to fend off aerial assault amongst other aggression.
Please refrain from suggestions if you've never played Zerg.
On August 13 2010 15:53 Piski wrote:
Why there are so many "my suggestions for change" threads. I'd rather read what we can do with what we got.
There are hundreds many everyday. Check out the TL subforum "Starcraft 2 Strategy".
|
I sort of agree with the scouting, but imo our scouting is as good as toss scout.
I very much agree with the ledge thing.
|
Seriously, of all the Zerg issues you could choose from to complain about, you choose scouting? Zerg has the most reliable scouting in the game prior to Protoss getting up observers.
Scans are good, but they have a limited range - if something is hidden well you will most likely miss it. An overlord without speed can scout all tech structures 90% of the time if you're not stupid with it.
If you are having trouble getting off a good scout, poke in with units at the wall off at the same time as moving your overlord in from the opposite end of their base. Most of the time they will move their units to the wall off. Buildings have less sight than overlords, so you can always see their buildings without their buildings seeing you as long as their units are elsewhere.
Even if one overlord fails, you should always have at least 2 around their base (I usually have one at natural and one just outside main) so it's not like you can't send in another to see the other half of their base if you're really worried. They're not THAT precious.
As to Zerg needing earlier air defense... Absolutely not (at least not in the ways you're suggesting). 2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers), and any slower air attacks will be scouted by your overlord. If you get killed by air units early in the game then it is most likely your fault, not a flaw in Zerg's design.
I would seriously like to see a replay of you A) overlord scouting pre-lair, and B) getting rushed by air, without holes in your play. These are literally the most gigantor non-issues of Zerg at the moment.
If you're not scouting in a similar fashion to this then that is the reason you're failing:
![[image loading]](http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy353/SwedishMonks/Metalopolis.jpg)
|
Main problem i think are those shitty maps. Make new maps, take them from iccup and it will be A LOT better. Also queen build time being decreased, that would really help a ton, at least for me. Scoutinng i think it's not a problem.
|
I think if zerg had burrow back at T1, that would be enough to put things right. Same cost and time. It would add a significant number of early options to Zerg play, both offensively and defensively.
I could see it being abused to deny expansions, but I don't think that is any more of a gamebreaker than pylon blocking, proxies, or other cheese tactics. Since the cost is 100/100 at tier 1, the opponent would certainly have time to get static detectors, and mobile detection shouldn't be far behind.
|
burrow T1 thats it... This will make toss and terran think b4 they push. becouse right now zerg has to defend. Zerg cannot be agressive early game vs 2 or 4 gate toss or aggressive against MM with stim or fast helion other races can make timing pushes with easy transition to higher tech. While zerg is forced to expand early and react to the enemy build whenever my army move forwad to get somekind of map control It get destroyed.Other solution is queen to be build from larva and not from hatch itself
this will give a little faster lair tech and will open timing window for zerg faster AA or Air attack.
|
I think T1 Burrow might be a bit too much... I think the biggest issues are the maps, but being pinholed into a tiny set of safe builds while T opens so many variations really makes Z hard for me however whether that is "imbalanced" or not is arguable. I don't think imbalance would be the right word, because wins are attainable... It just feels so uphill everytime. 
|
my problem with saccing overlords for scouting is it starts to ruin my larva rotation. . . a few larva can be the difference between win and lose.
|
On August 13 2010 14:09 Ghin wrote:and by "Top Zerg players" you must mean idra.
Did you not see Sheth's writeup?
|
Yeah there is something, lower queen build time is ok. Another problem I have is with the spore crawlers, they do suck donkey! Compare the cost and effectiveness to a turret(arn't turrets abit too good these days?), it's pretty insane I think. Would like the range at least to be abit longer so you don't need three of them to defend against 1 banshee cloaked or not. I on the other hand think we need another unit, maybe that's built in the hatchery.
An example of a unit that would be cool and solve some issues for me and also very fun. It should be built from the hatchery after you get for example roach warren(with some extra features also), cost 50/50(be 1 supply!!) or 25/75 be something like a weaker roach(give some plus vs armoured?) but with some weakish anti air also to help your queens in need maybe also with that you should be able to use the queens energy(25 or so) to queue up more than 1 at the same time from the hatchery if you want to build them faster plus it's a way to neglect you missing the inject larva from time to time. Also maybe have an ability to move while burrowed which you get automatically to be able to scout people. Maybe even give it an ability to dig under cliffs(both the burrow and under cliff thing for another 50/50 maybe or just for free?). Now that would be a fun not overpowered unit that will help you somewhat against tough banshee/void ray rushes if you have some spare energy on a queen also help you get rid of all the excess energy on a queen. Would be really cool to use it late game as a unit to mass when you have so many queens with full energy and as it only takes 1 supply also an option not having to rush to hydra every game IF fast banshee or voidray are coming to get any kind of mobile anti air before that. Just a stupid suggestion for a unit that would add diversity to the bland boring zerg race, it would really open up for at least some kind of different plays at the start as zerg and not force us to go always the same path. Any opinions?
|
The only thing that makes Zerg boring is the need for the quick T2 tech.
With roaches/speedling you could hold of really lots of stuff... It's just.. Oh, he has 1 Air-Unit... Even if i have enough Units and Creepspread to fend everything off with spedlings and slow banelings/roaches, i can never ever leave my base until i get Hydras.
Yeah, you can try to scout it.. Good luck with that, they both can build everywhere they fucking want and whiteout overlordspeed your not even sure to see anything.
Why can a Toss 4 Gate and be save from everything?
Why can a Terran just mass MM and be save from everything?
Zerg just needs the abilitie to produce Hydras just "in case" the enemy decides to build a flying unit because else it's not just a harass unit, it's a unit of insta-gg.
|
On August 13 2010 21:18 Velr wrote:
The only thing that makes Zerg boring is the need fort he T2 tech.
With roaches/speedling you could hold of really lots of stuff... It's just.. Oh, he has 1 Air-Unit... Even if i have enough creep to fend it off, i can never leave my base until i got some Hydras.
its not really the air that sucks, its the cloaked banshees. staying at t1 would get you raped by them.
give overlords detection back. remove overseers from the game or make them upgrade for 50/50 ands till have changling and contaminate. The overseer is just ANOTHER thing zerg has spend a crapload of gas on once he finally hits t2.
|
Make infestors t1, would make openings much more varied.
|
Why is everyone saying using SCAN is almost as equivalent as sacking overlord?
it's not seriously
Scan
-How much time does it take to use it? Prolly 1 second or less
-Do you lose food over it? NO
-Is it guaranteed scouting? YES, meaning you WILL mostly likely see what your opponent is doing
-Do you REALLY lose mineral? NO, since you use your energy to use it and it doesn't come directly out of the mineral you currently have
Overlord
-How much time does it take for the overlord to get to the opponent's base? ohhh i don't know... but by the time you get there, it'll prolly die cuz of marine. If P, then no. Later by stalker
-Do you lose food over it? Hell yea
-Is it guaranteed scouting? NO, cuz marine can sack that thing before it even touches the edge of the base
-Do you REALLY lose mineral? yes you dumb bitch, you take exactly 100 mineral directly from my mineral and press s and v to make that shit. and if sacked, then i have to make another one
|
i like the idea of just increasing the damage done by queens a little bit (say 2x6 vs ground and 15 vs air).then reduce the morphing time of the overseer down to 10 and the zerg should feel better early game (against air and e.g reapers).to outweigh that,one could reduce the amount healed by transfusion to,say,80.would that be a viable idea?
|
Zerg are just too frail for their massability this is the key zerg dynamic and I believe this would be the key to a succesfull solution to current balance issues. We either need more bite or more durability. It's not like zerg weren't top dog not that long ago. we know how to take it in the other direction we just have to find a middle ground.
ling -> ling, hydra -> ling, hydra, infestor -> ling, hydra, infestor, broodlord > The rest
get 3 bases!
|
Imo the biggest issue is the map pool, I hate most of the map actually on ladder as zerg (like the 2 new , hard to defend natural).
Early game is fine for me, my biggest problem is mid-game push with Collossi or HTs for P and some other terran pushes. If the P push with Collossi your hydras will get raped and you need air (and even with air it's hard to hold) or ultras (who take a lot of time and ressource to get), HTs are a problem too. In general I think Z lack something to defend against those units.
|
Burrow @ T1 is a bad idea. Imagine zvz... burrowed bling landmine @ T1? Are you sure you want that?
Decrease burrow build time and cost to 50/50. Revert Overlord speed back to 100/100. Make Lair not build for 80 fucking seconds, 60 or 40 plz. Give roaches 2 starting armor but stay with the 2 food crap or make them have the speed upgrade from the get-go. Maybe make roaches upgrades cheaper. Maybe decrease queen build time.
Remove the "Light" armor type from the hydralisk. Make them only Biological, so hellions won't rape them any way they want.
Remove the "Armoured" armour type from the Spine Crawler, leaving them only with Structure and biological, so we'll be able to defend against maras and stalkers early pushes.
Right now, once you hit Lair, you have to waste so many fucking resources on upgrades it's ridiculous. If you commit to burrowed roaches, you won't have anything to fall back on since you just wasted 100/100(speed) + 100/100 (burrow) + 150/150 (burrow move) + 200/200 (overlord speed) and god knows how much more on overseers etc. just to have a shot at defending a midgame push -.-
|
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
Most terran MULE, especially vs zerg since it's basically impossible to wall-in for zerg until you get lings/roachs, so terran can just sac an SCV or marine to scout freely.
On the topic of zerg early game, what I would like to see is not necessarily a decrease in queen's build time, but perhaps make queen available without a spawning pool (like protoss don't need a gateway to chrono boost).
Being able to build a queen sooner would allow more diverse builds since it would certainly be viable to queen+pool at like 12 drones instead of systematically going FE because zerg can't afford to tech/crank enough of their weaksauce units with 1base.
|
Just build 3 Queens as standard, voilà... you have a nice defense against air rushes.
If the opponent goes heavy air (void or banshee) i find that Infestors counter air much better than Hydras, especially because they can attack cloaked Banshees (Fungal Growth) and stop any air from just dodging your ground forces. They will also often be able to stop Voidrays from keeping up their charged beams when you fungal them correctly.
And concerning the scouting abilitys; position your Overlords proberly, position your Zerglings properly and hold the Xelnaga Towers. The problem is, that this only work on big Maps, because you can still build some units if you see them move out.
The thing that's imba with Zerg is the inability to withstand a Mechball or Tossball, even if you scouted it, without loosing too much economy. It's just a balancing act and if you estimated incorrectly, you will be dead. It doesn't matter whether you droned up too much or made too much army. Especially against Terran, you won't be able to counter attack if you have much of an army left, cuz of their insane turtle power.
Anything but the exact balance will loose you the game and getting that balance is often depending on instinct.
|
I agree that zerg scouting is horrible, but its NOT the early air that hurts. Zerg can hold off air with 1 or 2 extra queens. What really hurts is that zerg cannot pressure early game unless its a 6pool. Zerg has to sit and wait for reapers/helions/thordrops/2gate. I think the idea of 2 roaches in an egg is a good idea. It would hold these rushes off an perhaps even give zerg a way to pressure. Also, it would be good for lategame as zerg wouldn't have such a small army
|
On August 13 2010 16:38 Swede wrote:
If you're not scouting in a similar fashion to this then that is the reason you're failing:
Whow you are a genious! Now I can scout everything with slow moving OLs!
Well except ANY player that actually places supply depots / pylons around his base. Any decent Terran player should stop OLs from scouting anything vital by just building the base correctly. Especially on maps with large starting areas.
|
On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and receiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals".
|
On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
false.
|
Make mutas 50/50 and one food. Move to tier one, cut spire build time in half. Leave everything else as is.
|
The thing is (which was mentioned by the OP as well) is that it's not that Zerg scouting is really bad. It's that zerg scouting is insufficient for the reactive role you play as zerg.
The zerg in SC2 have a very reactive playstyle. And especially in the early early game taking the wrong route as zerg can be extremely punishing. Much more so than with T or P.
|
On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals".
I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what.
Scan costs:
270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise.
OR
100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals.
Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans.
Play both sides and you'd understand.
When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info.
|
LOL at people comparing Scan to Overlords, Terrans don't even need mules to win (hell they can win with pretty much 1/2 bases of materials).
Terran gets some very mineral efficient units without spending much gas so losing out on some minerals by not getting Mules is nowhere near the loss of losing a 100 mineral unit/supply for a possible scout vs a guaranteed scout with the scan.
Anyway T1 burrow would be fine and yes having burrowing banelings/zerglings fighting each other would be much more interesting and fun than its current incarnation. Its not like burrow is a particularly powerful ability in the early game anyway.
I think a big problem for Zerg is the build time to get their higher tier units more than anything.
|
On August 14 2010 01:24 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals". I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what. Scan costs: 270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise. OR 100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans. Play both sides and you'd understand. When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info.
By your logic, overlord 100 minerals + lost drone = 1000+ minerals since that drone you could have made could be mining 'over time' just like the mule mines 270 'over time'. So am i going to say that overlord costs me 1100 minerals to scout, just like it costs u 270 minerals to scan? No.
I think its you sir who dont understand the different between opportunity cost and cost.
Go back to school
|
On August 13 2010 21:30 TerranHater wrote:
Why is everyone saying using SCAN is almost as equivalent as sacking overlord?
it's not seriously
Scan
-How much time does it take to use it? Prolly 1 second or less
-Do you lose food over it? NO
-Is it guaranteed scouting? YES, meaning you WILL mostly likely see what your opponent is doing
-Do you REALLY lose mineral? NO, since you use your energy to use it and it doesn't come directly out of the mineral you currently have
Overlord
-How much time does it take for the overlord to get to the opponent's base? ohhh i don't know... but by the time you get there, it'll prolly die cuz of marine. If P, then no. Later by stalker
-Do you lose food over it? Hell yea
-Is it guaranteed scouting? NO, cuz marine can sack that thing before it even touches the edge of the base
-Do you REALLY lose mineral? yes you dumb bitch, you take exactly 100 mineral directly from my mineral and press s and v to make that shit. and if sacked, then i have to make another one
Overlord scouting 101
- Position your first two overlords of the game out side of the enemy base right, although this is tricky on desert oasis. This way you can quickly sac them if needed. takes no more than 15 seconds to get a good scout off.
- Preemptively make another overlord so you don't get supply blocked, not that hard.
- One marine will not kill an overlord fast enough to deny scouting. Ten marines will. But could that mean hes going bio?
One dead overlord is 100 minerals and one larvae lost.
One scan is the loss of a 270 minerals per minute spike.
I would say this is balanced.
|
Scouting with a sacrificial overlord is effective because, even if it gets shot down, you will at least know how many marines/sentries/stalkers there are. And if you don't see anything, expect some sort of all-in.
Terran has it the exact same way. Zerg is capable of hiding buildings buy spewing creep through overlords, and Protoss rarely ever puts its buildings in an easy-to-see spot. Scans are sacrificial because thats a lot of time without a mule.
Protoss is kept in the dark until they have an observer or a phoenix/hallucinated phoenix, which is pretty far into the game.
Terran early pushes get rolled by roaches/zerglings/sunkens.
Protoss early pushes can be countered by getting sunkens, some zerglings, and rushing hydralisks.
|
Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage.
To be on even terms, Zerg units MUST have superior upgrades.
Why many Zergs do bad is they have been caught up in this "we're on the same number of bases so it's an even fight" mentality. If you are going to play that game, win fast. As Zerg, you have to have a superior economy at all times to have a prayer in hell of winning. This is not imbalance, this is Zerg. Out macro, out produce, out perform, and win. Zerg is decidedly the hardest race to play for a reason.
|
On August 14 2010 02:06 Aldair wrote:
Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage.
To be on even terms, Zerg units MUST have superior upgrades.
Why many Zergs do bad is they have been caught up in this "we're on the same number of bases so it's an even fight" mentality. If you are going to play that game, win fast. As Zerg, you have to have a superior economy at all times to have a prayer in hell of winning. This is not imbalance, this is Zerg. Out macro, out produce, out perform, and win. Zerg is decidedly the hardest race to play for a reason.
Your FE pretty much keeps you on par with terran 1 base due to his mules, until you have a lot of drones. im sure 3 vs 2 base is equal as well assuming the 1st isnt mined out.
While i get the whole outmacro idea, the mules just make it retarded to do so. especially when your trying to macro and get drone count and base count up but hes pumping out units and can attack anything at any time and pretty much kill it.
|
On August 13 2010 17:17 Motiva wrote:I think T1 Burrow might be a bit too much... I think the biggest issues are the maps, but being pinholed into a tiny set of safe builds while T opens so many variations really makes Z hard for me however whether that is "imbalanced" or not is arguable. I don't think imbalance would be the right word, because wins are attainable... It just feels so uphill everytime.
I think you're right about how much difference map making could be. That said, I'd like it if all the races had some way of abusing terrain, at different times of the game, such that map makers don't need to build maps that coddle zerg, simply because they are so vulnerable to terrain abuse.
|
only problem i have with early game Z (just like overall balance) are the maps. the vast majority is plain shit and keeps Z from getting into the game early.
dont think ive lost a single pvz on blistering so far and evrytime im z on caverns i facepalm.
sad thing is that most people dont realise that and just blindly blame whatever for huge "imbalances" after they lose without even trying to understand what the reason for that is.
On August 14 2010 02:24 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:06 Aldair wrote:
Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage.
To be on even terms, Zerg units MUST have superior upgrades.
Why many Zergs do bad is they have been caught up in this "we're on the same number of bases so it's an even fight" mentality. If you are going to play that game, win fast. As Zerg, you have to have a superior economy at all times to have a prayer in hell of winning. This is not imbalance, this is Zerg. Out macro, out produce, out perform, and win. Zerg is decidedly the hardest race to play for a reason. Your FE pretty much keeps you on par with terran 1 base due to his mules, until you have a lot of drones. im sure 3 vs 2 base is equal as well assuming the 1st isnt mined out. While i get the whole outmacro idea, the mules just make it retarded to do so. especially when your trying to macro and get drone count and base count up but hes pumping out units and can attack anything at any time and pretty much kill it.
mules keep T up with the superior drone production/expanding of Z. works both ways. if you cant balance drone/unit production its your fault.
but you said before that scans are free(and at the same time assume T spends all energy on mules) and made some shit up about overlord scouting. guess you just are a insanely biased guy that complains for the sake of complaining.
|
On August 13 2010 14:09 Ghin wrote:
Overlords can scout a base pretty well before lair. Also, you don't have to see the starport to know someone is going banshee. You can figure it out by how he walls and by how he spent his money.
I think one of the problems with zerg is there aren't any ranged units until lair. This makes it hard to pressure a wall-in. I think the other problem is that there aren't any units (muta, or lurker in BW) that force the opponent to do things or die. Muta does this fairly well but it doesn't work all the time because he's probably going to have marines and an ebay by default just because barracks units are so strong.
and by "Top Zerg players" you must mean idra.
It's funny, your first paragraph is so completey wrong it's appauling, yet the idea that leads the second paragraph is both extremely accurate and overlooked.
|
On August 14 2010 03:24 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:only problem i have with early game Z (just like overall balance) are the maps. the vast majority is plain shit and keeps Z from getting into the game early. dont think ive lost a single pvz on blistering so far and evrytime im z on caverns i facepalm. sad thing is that most people dont realise that and just blindly blame whatever for huge "imbalances" after they lose without even trying to understand what the reason for that is. Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:24 tacrats wrote:On August 14 2010 02:06 Aldair wrote:
Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage.
To be on even terms, Zerg units MUST have superior upgrades.
Why many Zergs do bad is they have been caught up in this "we're on the same number of bases so it's an even fight" mentality. If you are going to play that game, win fast. As Zerg, you have to have a superior economy at all times to have a prayer in hell of winning. This is not imbalance, this is Zerg. Out macro, out produce, out perform, and win. Zerg is decidedly the hardest race to play for a reason. Your FE pretty much keeps you on par with terran 1 base due to his mules, until you have a lot of drones. im sure 3 vs 2 base is equal as well assuming the 1st isnt mined out. While i get the whole outmacro idea, the mules just make it retarded to do so. especially when your trying to macro and get drone count and base count up but hes pumping out units and can attack anything at any time and pretty much kill it. mules keep T up with the superior drone production/expanding of Z. works both ways. if you cant balance drone/unit production its your fault. but you said before that scans are free(and at the same time assume T spends all energy on mules) and made some shit up about overlord scouting. guess you just are a insanely biased guy that complains for the sake of complaining.
I dont have a problem with zerg scouting at all. This isnt my thread. I think its fine. So no idea what you think i am complaining about.
How is it balanced that a zerg has to macro perfectly and expand when all a T has to do is call down mules with a click of a button to keep up? hint, its not. there isnt a threat of omg the zerg is expanding i must contain, like there was in BW. There is no risk of a 1 basing terran turtling against a 2 base zerg in terms of getting too behind in economy due to mules and wont have to worry about losing a battle because their army will be stronger. You shouldn't be able to have both. mule collection needs to be nerfed.
I can balance drone/unit production fine. Balance as much as you want terran is going to have an strong econ and probably a better army regardless of what you do or hes noob.
|
On August 13 2010 16:38 Swede wrote:
As to Zerg needing earlier air defense... Absolutely not (at least not in the ways you're suggesting). 2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)
Hmm? Banshees and Void Rays always come in threes. If you think 2 queens can fend it off, I'd recommend you test it out now.
Guys, quit talking about t1 burrow, that isn't going to change a damn thing. And quit talking about MULEs, it has of no relevance in this thread.
The point of this thread is mostly to note how susceptible Zerg is to cheese and how the currents maps suck. Can we discuss that instead?
|
I just want a unit that can attack air in T1 so I don't have to rush to lair just so I won't die to some void ray rush or banshees. And don't tell me queens do the trick, because they don't I could make 3-4 queens and I can handle banshees or voidrays early, but if he drops me with a lot of marines those 4 queens will just end up being almost useless.
|
On August 14 2010 09:04 Ksyper wrote:
I just want a unit that can attack air in T1 so I don't have to rush to lair just so I won't die to some void ray rush or banshees. And don't tell me queens do the trick, because they don't I could make 3-4 queens and I can handle banshees or voidrays early, but if he drops me with a lot of marines those 4 queens will just end up being almost useless.
Would You like some Infested Terrans?
|
IMO "Current State of" or "State of" topics should meet the same fate as "Serious Discussion of" topics.
|
On August 14 2010 01:24 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals". I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what. Scan costs: 270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise. OR 100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans. Play both sides and you'd understand. When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info.
A mule doesnt get you 270 minerals.. It gets you 270 minerals faster, and really towards the mid game when you have about 2-3 OC, you don't NEED constant mules, constant scans on the other hand become much more valuable so stop shit balling about how T is losing opportunity minerals when P and Z have to actually mine with our workers and are at a disadvantage the instant you start muling.
--
Now as to what I actually wanted to say; Zerg really needs 3 major things done and it will be on par with the other races.
1) some anti air unit in T1 stages. IDC if it forces the hydra down to teir 1 and roach to teir 2, or if zerg gets an entirely different unit. Zerg NEEDS some range unit in the early game that actually makes a early VR/Banshee/w/e a harassment and not a gg-style attack pre-lair. Even if a zerg hard techs to a lair a banshee/VR will be there before the building to actually make the unit (be it hydra or muta) finishes.
2) Some unit that does splash damage in teir 1-2. Banelings just dont replace lurkers in this aspect unless you have a ridiculous amount so they all dont die before they reach a terran bio-ball or the stalkers in a P timing push. For god sakes fine dont put in the lurker, but give us SOME splash unit that can be used for strong defense and somewhat ok offense. Hell not even the fungal growth is good at all when compared to the lurker as it only does a measly 30 something damage whereas a HT can use storm that deals 80 damage.... what the hell?
3)Holy jesus zerg needs cheaper units. Zerg use to be all about cheap, massable effective units. But in sc2 it seems they took a drastic alternative path. I guarantee you had the roach been a 1 food unit again, or if the hydra was a little cheaper zerg wouldn't have as hard of a time as they do now against mech. Hell even the unit like the corrupter... seriously why the hell does zerg have that... thing? Scourge was all they needed to counter capital ships and then use mutas to finish up the rubble and it worked brilliantly because they we're cheap, massable, and although weak they did their job. Seriously what the hell happened to my airborn torpedoes?!
|
Whow you are a genious! Now I can scout everything with slow moving OLs!
Well except ANY player that actually places supply depots / pylons around his base. Any decent Terran player should stop OLs from scouting anything vital by just building the base correctly. Especially on maps with large starting areas
Your pre-lair overlord should arrive when they have 2 - 3 pylons/depots. Most times they will be used in a wall off or (for protoss) making sure gateways/cores are safe from pylon snipes. Basically, 90% of the time, there will be no spotter building at the point of scouting. But if there is (and I mentioned this initially), overlords have greater sight than all buildings, so if it's a not a tech structure then just move around it. Once you get to a certain point there will be no stopping your overlord quickly enough short of mass marines (and if they have mass marines, they went mass marines = successful scout).
There will be spotter buildings later on, hence why you will need overlord speed/an overseer at that point, but before that time slow overlords do fine.
People who are complaining are doing it wrong.
On August 14 2010 09:00 HardcoreBilly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2010 16:38 Swede wrote:
As to Zerg needing earlier air defense... Absolutely not (at least not in the ways you're suggesting). 2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)
Hmm? Banshees and Void Rays always come in threes. If you think 2 queens can fend it off, I'd recommend you test it out now.
I don't think that. Hence, "2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)"
In cases where they do stop to gather, you should always scout it if it's not proxied. Even then, it's pretty easy to sense a cheese like that just by seeing how little there is in their base (if it's proxied). Personally I recommend always getting 3 (or more) queens as quickly as you safely can.
I'm not saying I never lose to air rushes. But when I do it's almost always my fault.
|
On August 14 2010 10:21 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +Whow you are a genious! Now I can scout everything with slow moving OLs!
Well except ANY player that actually places supply depots / pylons around his base. Any decent Terran player should stop OLs from scouting anything vital by just building the base correctly. Especially on maps with large starting areas Your pre-lair overlord should arrive when they have 2 - 3 pylons/depots. Most times they will be used in a wall off or (for protoss) making sure gateways/cores are safe from pylon snipes. Basically, 90% of the time, there will be no spotter building at the point of scouting. But if there is (and I mentioned this initially), overlords have greater sight than all buildings, so if it's a not a tech structure then just move around it. Once you get to a certain point there will be no stopping your overlord quickly enough short of mass marines (and if they have mass marines, they went mass marines = successful scout).
For the sake of argument, I'll go along with you. Lets say you do get an overlord into the opponent's base (in this case, Terran). You don't see anything because he's good at concealing and a place like blistering sands offers a wide area of building placements. All he needs are 3 Marines to pop your Overlord(s). Tell me, what have you discovered from that little venture? A smart Terran knows how to be deceptive, and even if he does show his army of marines, he can easily be teching to banshees, as Marines are dirt cheap.
On a 4-player map, this becomes increasingly difficult as you are more than likely going to scout in the wrong direction.
Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 09:00 HardcoreBilly wrote:On August 13 2010 16:38 Swede wrote:
As to Zerg needing earlier air defense... Absolutely not (at least not in the ways you're suggesting). 2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)
Hmm? Banshees and Void Rays always come in threes. If you think 2 queens can fend it off, I'd recommend you test it out now. I don't think that. Hence, "2 queens will hold off all of the fastest air rushes (where they send the air unit as soon as it's ready rather than gather numbers)" In cases where they do stop to gather, you should always scout it if it's not proxied. Even then, it's pretty easy to sense a cheese like that just by seeing how little there is in their base (if it's proxied). Personally I recommend always getting 3 (or more) queens as quickly as you safely can.
Well I know that (seriously, go test it out). And once again, for the sake of argument (since knowledge Terran and Protoss players tend to mass up to 3), lets say the Protoss or Terran does attack with a solo Void Ray/Banshee. The Void Ray can destroy one queen, but if the player sees two, then he can easily retreat, get shield up/repair, and ready for a second strike.
I really don't see why you're so inclined to believe overlord scouting is so good. The fact is that most maps has a large well-guarded main thats only exit is a ramp, and the Overlord will see a lot less than 40% of the main by the time it gets sniped.
|
The void ray is so easy to exploit with that charge effect. Blizzard made it so that it's harder to get to charge 3 but then we just feed off of buildings first (luckily a dest rock, the other ray, or a hallu).
You can even feed off far debris, and then to keep your charge, you move and attack each other as friendly fire. Insanely effective.
"Oh but if you go early voids you are vulnerable to a massive ground push."
I don't think so, buddy. Forcefield for the win.
|
On August 14 2010 01:24 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals". I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what. Scan costs: 270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise. OR 100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans. Play both sides and you'd understand. When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info.
REALLY? you cant be serious right? so using a scan is the same thing as loosing 8 supply? its not at all the same thing, not in the slightest. u may have lost POTENTIAL money from that mule because u lost a scan but zerg is loosing DIRECT money along with 8 supply. it only costs u ENERGY to make that "270 minerals over time". it only costs you ENERGY to get that scout in. for zerg it costs direct minerals and 8 supply if ur going to sac a ovie for scouting and ur not even guranteed a scout in unless you have overlord speed which comes in late compared to scan and it costs money and gas.
you first have to get a lair which costs 150/100. then u need 100/100 gas to get the speed upgrade. a total of 250 minerals and 200 gas to get a effective overlord scout where as terran only need to spend 150 minerals for orbital command. and ONE mule gets u all of that 150 minerals back with profit minerals to spare. and you really think its the same as risking a overlord scout?
with mules ur basically getting free money because it only cost energy to make a mule. yes zerg has spawn larva but it still costs them 200 minerals to make those 4 drones from those 4 extra larva where as terran it cost 50 energy to make 270 minerals? dont BS around the issue dude. u can easily afford to not use a scan over a mule.
a terran can loose every single scv he has and have 0 minerals in the bank and still stay in the game. and u know why? because mules can do that shit for u. mules is basically free money.
|
On August 14 2010 20:36 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 01:24 oxxo wrote:On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals". I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what. Scan costs: 270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise. OR 100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans. Play both sides and you'd understand. When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info. REALLY? you cant be serious right? so using a scan is the same thing as loosing 8 supply? its not at all the same thing, not in the slightest. u may have lost POTENTIAL money from that mule because u lost a scan but zerg is loosing DIRECT money along with 8 supply. it only costs u ENERGY to make that "270 minerals over time". it only costs you ENERGY to get that scout in. for zerg it costs direct minerals and 8 supply if ur going to sac a ovie for scouting and ur not even guranteed a scout in unless you have overlord speed which comes in late compared to scan and it costs money and gas. you first have to get a lair which costs 150/100. then u need 100/100 gas to get the speed upgrade. a total of 250 minerals and 200 gas to get a effective overlord scout where as terran only need to spend 150 minerals for orbital command. and ONE mule gets u all of that 150 minerals back with profit minerals to spare. and you really think its the same as risking a overlord scout? with mules ur basically getting free money because it only cost energy to make a mule. yes zerg has spawn larva but it still costs them 200 minerals to make those 4 drones from those 4 extra larva where as terran it cost 50 energy to make 270 minerals? dont BS around the issue dude. u can easily afford to not use a scan over a mule. a terran can loose every single scv he has and have 0 minerals in the bank and still stay in the game. and u know why? because mules can do that shit for u. mules is basically free money.
I think people are forgetting the fact that terran has the slowest worker production rate in the game, P can chronoboost probes, Zerg has larvae mechanic, terran has mules, P + Z get workers faster, T gets mules to compensate, 1 mule is really equivalent to an extra 3-4 workers(?) which T will be down by approximately during the beginning. T also has to invest more money into production buildings meaning that while its not a direct cost it is an indirect cost because it then slows the terran down if he uses scans indiscriminately which then requires planning on when and where to use the scan to max its effectiveness. the same can be said of OL saccing and positioning, it requires forethought, my first OLs i send to diff spots around my opponents base/the map so that when i do need to scout they are already in position, also if i do need to sac 1 i build another OL before i send it in so that i don't supply block myself( i honestly thought this would be common sense). This is a direct 100 min cost vs indirect 270 min cost, they both require forethought and planning. I do agree that scan is significantly easier but any less costly i doubt.
|
Remember people trying to tell actual facts, all these people ignore anything that doesn't agree with their argument.
|
these topics are becoming so overdone, the exact same arguments are being said in each thread.
|
I'll chime in on the whole MULE debate. People who think Scan=270 loss minerals, don't take an economics course. In fact, I wouldn't dabble with any math related courses. There is a huge difference between 270 minerals and 270 minerals that depletes your mineral patch over a period of time. I don't know why some of you guys have a hard time grasping this concept.
And GG.win, in what way? Please link at least another thread that is at all similar to mine. And while your at it, please explain how my suggestions are bad.
|
"There is a huge difference between 270 minerals and 270 minerals that depletes your mineral patch over a period of time"
Sure there is a difference, but it isn't 170 minerals worth. Zerg do not have problems scouting compared to the other races, if anyone needs a buff in scouting it is early Protoss who play almost completely blind for the early game.
If you want to help Zerg early make it so roaches are more viable. The strats Zerg struggle with early are almost always things that roaches can beat. Either make the building cheaper or make the unit a little stronger(not 1 pop though, that really was OP). After that change see how things change early game and move from there.
|
Aren't the minerals that MULEs mine taken away from mineral fields? If yes, saying that a scan costs 270 minerals is just BS, since you'll eventually get those minerals anyways.
Besides, a scan is instant and and you see a large area, while slow overlord scouting takes planning, and it's not even guaranteed that you get into his base.
If MULEs don't actually mine the minerals, but they somehow magically appear in their robotic arms, disregard this post.
|
They have to mine the 270 minerals but they ignore SCV so you still use them on a saturated base. I don't lose very many games because I ran out of mineral patches though. If one Terran mules and the other doesn't the Terran who doesn't mule is going to fall way behind on econ regardless of the fact the minerals 'would have been mined anyway'.
That is like saying chronoboost doesn't do anything because the units 'would have built eventually anyway'.
Using a scan costs the Terran more in real game sense than Zerg losing an overlord and might cost them more than Zerg losing 2 overlords though that one can be tricky since you have to place a value on the larva.
|
Enable the Overlord Speed Upgrade to be pre-lair.
50/50 like it was before, and 80 second research time.
Or
Allow the Overseerer to be built Pre-Lair.
Make it more expensive, 150 Minerals/100 Gas, as opposed to its 50 mineras/100 gas cost now.
Just ideas.
|
On August 15 2010 03:58 EnderCN wrote:
They have to mine the 270 minerals but they ignore SCV so you still use them on a saturated base. I don't lose very many games because I ran out of mineral patches though. If one Terran mules and the other doesn't the Terran who doesn't mule is going to fall way behind on econ regardless of the fact the minerals 'would have been mined anyway'.
That is like saying chronoboost doesn't do anything because the units 'would have built eventually anyway'.
Using a scan costs the Terran more in real game sense than Zerg losing an overlord and might cost them more than Zerg losing 2 overlords though that one can be tricky since you have to place a value on the larva.
I'm not saying it doesn't do anything, I'm saying it doesn't cost anything. It's probably just as bad, if not worse, if you don't use the scan.
But then again, as terran you don't HAVE to scan, because you have reapers, hellions for good scouting, and as someone else pointed out, a barracks is even flying faster than an overlord, has more hp, doesn't take up larva and can't potentially supply block you.
It's about options.
|
On August 15 2010 00:26 TangJuice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 20:36 Ballistixz wrote:On August 14 2010 01:24 oxxo wrote:On August 14 2010 00:25 Azile wrote:On August 13 2010 21:52 Phrencys wrote:
@TerranHater: Scan costs 270 minerals, because then you're not MULEing.
You seem confused as to what 'cost' means. You are making a choice when scanning between scouting and r eceiving 270 minerals over a period of time. It doesn't cost you anything. At no point in the game will you ever say "well shit i'd like to scan right now but I can't cause I only have 50 minerals". I don't know if most Z are in denial or just don't understand economics or what. Scan costs: 270 minerals over time OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. There is no way to say otherwise. OR 100 minerals + mining time of 1 scv immediate OPPORTUNITY COST. It COSTS minerals. Sac your overlords. T is already doing it with scans. Play both sides and you'd understand. When I get Z I sac plenty of overlords. Just like I sac plenty of mules/supply drops to get info. REALLY? you cant be serious right? so using a scan is the same thing as loosing 8 supply? its not at all the same thing, not in the slightest. u may have lost POTENTIAL money from that mule because u lost a scan but zerg is loosing DIRECT money along with 8 supply. it only costs u ENERGY to make that "270 minerals over time". it only costs you ENERGY to get that scout in. for zerg it costs direct minerals and 8 supply if ur going to sac a ovie for scouting and ur not even guranteed a scout in unless you have overlord speed which comes in late compared to scan and it costs money and gas. you first have to get a lair which costs 150/100. then u need 100/100 gas to get the speed upgrade. a total of 250 minerals and 200 gas to get a effective overlord scout where as terran only need to spend 150 minerals for orbital command. and ONE mule gets u all of that 150 minerals back with profit minerals to spare. and you really think its the same as risking a overlord scout? with mules ur basically getting free money because it only cost energy to make a mule. yes zerg has spawn larva but it still costs them 200 minerals to make those 4 drones from those 4 extra larva where as terran it cost 50 energy to make 270 minerals? dont BS around the issue dude. u can easily afford to not use a scan over a mule. a terran can loose every single scv he has and have 0 minerals in the bank and still stay in the game. and u know why? because mules can do that shit for u. mules is basically free money. I think people are forgetting the fact that terran has the slowest worker production rate in the game, P can chronoboost probes, Zerg has larvae mechanic, terran has mules, P + Z get workers faster, T gets mules to compensate, 1 mule is really equivalent to an extra 3-4 workers(?) which T will be down by approximately during the beginning. T also has to invest more money into production buildings meaning that while its not a direct cost it is an indirect cost because it then slows the terran down if he uses scans indiscriminately which then requires planning on when and where to use the scan to max its effectiveness. the same can be said of OL saccing and positioning, it requires forethought, my first OLs i send to diff spots around my opponents base/the map so that when i do need to scout they are already in position, also if i do need to sac 1 i build another OL before i send it in so that i don't supply block myself( i honestly thought this would be common sense). This is a direct 100 min cost vs indirect 270 min cost, they both require forethought and planning. I do agree that scan is significantly easier but any less costly i doubt.
thats true if the bases are un saturated, but a equally saturated base a terran will easilly pull ahead of both a toss and zerg in economy because of mules. you cant ignore that fact that its giving u free extra minerals and as a result a terran will pull ahead of toss and zerg in eco. all chrono boost and inject larva for zerg and toss does is gets a mineral line saturated faster. it doesnt give u extra minerals. terran gets there mineral line saturated slower but once they do have equally saturated bases terran WILL pull ahead in income. just watch a game and look at the income tab in a replay when ur playing against a good terran that uses mules constantly.
u will notice that ur income is fairly equal early on and then once both bases become saturated he will start to spike up in income.
|
On August 14 2010 02:06 Aldair wrote:
Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage.
All of the problems with the Zerg can be summed up with Blizzard's philosophy for the Zerg to be 'swarmy'. This is why the units are so weak. This is why Zerg must 'get ahead' in number of bases.
Zerg can definitely win games. But is this enjoyable? Do you guys like droning as much as possible and just massing units to attack move?
When we look at the issues behind the Zerg, people point to different details. But I think the problem is the philosophy behind the Zerg which has been the cause of turning the Zerg into feeling different than what they were in Brood War. In Brood War, Zerg were aggressive. In Starcraft 2, the only time Zerg is 'aggressive' is when they are 'cheesing'. This points that a radical change occurred to the Zerg from Brood War and should be unmade.
|
On August 15 2010 13:28 Macavity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 02:06 Aldair wrote:
Someone said on page one that Zerg needs to FE to keep up in resources. This is incorrect. Zerg needs to FE to get AHEAD in economy.
Simple fact: Zerg units, cost to cost, are inferior across the board. 2 Lings will not kill a marine and 4, not microed, will not kill a zealot. A well position zealot will kill 8 well before death. Marauders and Stalkers counter roaches both in mobility and damage. All of the problems with the Zerg can be summed up with Blizzard's philosophy for the Zerg to be 'swarmy'. This is why the units are so weak. This is why Zerg must 'get ahead' in number of bases. Zerg can definitely win games. But is this enjoyable? Do you guys like droning as much as possible and just massing units to attack move? When we look at the issues behind the Zerg, people point to different details. But I think the problem is the philosophy behind the Zerg which has been the cause of turning the Zerg into feeling different than what they were in Brood War. In Brood War, Zerg were aggressive. In Starcraft 2, the only time Zerg is 'aggressive' is when they are 'cheesing'. This points that a radical change occurred to the Zerg from Brood War and should be unmade.
thats the thing, zerg doesnt feel swarmy at all after the nerf to roaches making them 2 supply. our army is now weak AND small. both terran and toss can just pretty much atk all of our units at once with AoE siege range units like siege tanks, colossus, storm, hellions, etc etc. and what splash dmg unit zerg has? banelings. thats all we get. a unit that has the same hp has zerglings and are slow as fuck on top of being a melee unit.
i myself have no problem with the "swarmy" feel of zerg, infact thats one of the reasons i love the race. but the thing is that "swarmy" feeling is not there at all. our army size is small, our units are weak, our spell casters are sub par, and we have no "infestation or disabling" abilities like what was intended with the corruptors and infestors. i think that is the real problem for zerg.
but i definably agree zerg needs more units to be aggressive with. thats another main problem for zerg. our main and key units are hydras, roaches, and maybe some lings. and after that we transition into either ultras or broodlords. thats pretty much the only units we use from start to finish because its all we have. terran and toss has a HUGE variety of units to choose from compared to zerg and tbh it should be the other way around. zerg should have a huge variety of units to choose from since they are basically a insect like race that infects many different other races to "assimilate" into there own race. so the question i REALLY want to ask blizz is why is the zerg so lacking?.
|
Lair tech is far too clustered imo. Make Overlord Speed Tier 1 or bring back the old vision range upgrade for 50/50 as a Tier 1 upgrade, that would make helpful scouting a turtle T/P so much more accessable. I don't think the lack of early anti air defense is a huge deal, because most air units are in the middle of the tech trees, and building 1 or 2 additional Queens before you have Hydras/Mutas doesn't hurt much, since they're so versatile, however as Z you should indead have the ability to scout your opponent's base in order to react that way. It's just like the OP said, blindly building things that prevent all different cheeses hurts your midgame SOO much.
|
On August 15 2010 02:49 EnderCN wrote:
"Sure there is a difference, but it isn't 170 minerals worth. Zerg do not have problems scouting compared to the other races, if anyone needs a buff in scouting it is early Protoss who play almost completely blind for the early game."
In PvZ your scouts are called Zealots ands Probes. Putting pressure on the Zerg early reveals soi much information on their openings. And it's not like Zerg have many crazy openings in the first place.
In PvT however I totally agree with playing blind for the first 6 Minutes of the game. BUT in contrast to Zerg, the Protoss are able to get a rock solid unit composition just from their gateways. They have two ranged units that can hit air, a strong melee tank that deals alot of dmg and can reduce incoming ranged damage by quite a bit.
|
we need
1. better maps, blizz maps are horrible, blizzard should have someone else making them that knows stuff
2. cheaper lair upgrades, overlord speed back to 50/50, burrow back to 50/50 and IMO spire cost to 100/100 (mutas aren't great, we can all agree on that. only time you'd win just because of mutas are if your opponents are horrible and fails to put up turrets/guards/protoss tower around their base) mutas are GREAT for map control, for scouting and sometimes harassing. cheaper spire = can afford it on 2 bases to gain some additional map control apart from having lings run around the map.
3. have blizzard polls coming up somewhere voting which maps should be added to the official blizz map pool?
4. make roaches 1 food and nerf something else instead. 1 more supply cost has a greater impact than something like 5-10 less damage would TBH
|
Australia18 Posts
i find it hard to believe that so many swarm haters out there believe that zerg scout so well. people cry about how many they have and how they can fly them out 1 by 1 as they need. your all neglecting that 2 marines can snipe them before anything barely usable is absorbed and that prior to getting olord speed. (a 100/100 invest post LAIR) they take horrendously long to reach any points of scouting interest.
and yet still they dribble on about how they have creep tumors. easy enough to spread but also destroy again arent viable near any BASE or to scout anything other than potential army movement
Zergs lack of early game variety allows the other races later game less risk scouting options more feesable since they can vividly predict what zerg is doing.
since zergs dont have 1 unit counters to everything t and p possess their intel must be provided earlier in game. me being a fulltime toss feel nothing for sympathy for all the saps that regardless of the gas steals and olord snipes still dont see that robo that i use to collosi time push them. OH NO THEY HAVE MUTAS. let me tech blink and warp stalkers for the gg, i dont like playing serg to boring. to easy 700 points. di player
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
