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I've never seen anyone doing this in a game. The only reasonable explanations I can see are that either the players don't know about it, or that they've decided it's too damn hard to get any benefit from.
I'm going to assume the top players are good enough to benefit so they must have just not thought of this.
Protoss produces units faster by switching between gateways and warpgates. I'm going to have all times in game-seconds in this post.
It takes 13 seconds to switch from a warpgate to a gateway and back. Gateways can produce units while the warpgate part of that gateway is on cooldown, and the cooldown continues to decrease while it's not in warpgate form. For the most extreme benefit, consider making a templar (either type) and a zealot from one gateway/warpgate:
As a warpgate, it takes 45 + 23 = 68 seconds to warp-in both units and then have the warpgate off-cooldown again. If instead you warp-in the templar, immediately switch to a gateway, and gateway-build the zealot then change back to a warpgate, you will have both units done and your warpgate off cooldown in 46 seconds (13 to switch + 33 for zealot).
For building even two stalkers you speed up production by doing this: warping in 2 stalkers is 64 seconds. Warping in one then gateway-building the other completes both in 55 seconds. You can do the math yourself for other unit combinations.
This does not speed up straight zealots, but does speed up every other two-unit combination. You always want to warp-in the longer build time unit and gateway-build the other.
The only real downsides I see are that this doesn't give you as much control over where your units spawn as just using warpgates and that you need to time a lot of different actions pretty well to benefit. I'd still think this has some in-game applications since it potentially offers as much of a production benefit as chrono boost (and of course you can chrono boost on top of it for even more production benefit), though at my level it's more beneficial to just build another warpgate or three instead.
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isn't changing back to gateway faster? (lol never used it obviously) but I thought it changed back a little faster than gateway -> warpgate
nice tip but I'll just add another warpgate :D
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If units warp-in faster, why ever use a gateway after the upgrade is done?
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I can just trust what you are saying since it seems you've done some research, but you gave me an idea, that I haven't tested, and I don't have the timing in my mind. What I'm thinking is : if the cooldown time of a warp gate is longer than turning the warpgate into a gateway and back, couldn't you , instead of wayiting for the waprgate cooldown to finish, just turn the warpgate into a gateway and back to be able to warp another unit faster ? I'm not sure this is true, so that's why I'm asking.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 18 2010 03:40 Amber[LighT] wrote:
If units warp-in faster, why ever use a gateway after the upgrade is done?
The Gateway can begin production sooner than the Warpgate cooldown ends. Since Warpgate build time is backloaded, you can do warp->gate->warp and get more units than if you just did warp->warp
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If all of the micro and macro problems in SCII are fixed and it sees professional play, you can be sure to see protoss players with Julyzerg level APM adding the warp-unwarp shuffle to their to-do lists.
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Clarification:
A warpgate/gateway is really two separate buildings in one, with separate timers (according to the OP).
That is, you can warp in a unit, and while you are waiting for the warpgate cooldown you can switch it back to a gateway, produce a unit the 'normal' way, and when that unit is finished, switch back to a warpgate again to repeat the procedure.
Sounds really mechanically demanding to me, but cool that it is possible. I wonder if that is by accident or design 
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You're forgetting turning it back into the warpgate at the end, so the difference is ~12s if you want to be able to end at your original state - 56 seconds (13 to switch + 33 for zealot +10 back to WG). If you're managing six warpgates, you'll have to do add 12+ actions (warp to gateway and back) for those 12s to be realized...plus half your units will be popping out without a rally point because that gets reset...the benefit doesn't outweigh the work required, imo.
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The warpgate doesn't use unit production times. Warpgates always cool down in the same amount of time, I think its 30 seconds, so your times are incorrect.
I think you method may be faster once, but if you tried it again youd have to add the change time in twice, Im not sure though.
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On May 18 2010 03:38 PaterSin wrote:
isn't changing back to gateway faster? (lol never used it obviously) but I thought it changed back a little faster than gateway -> warpgate
nice tip but I'll just add another warpgate :D
It's 3 seconds warpgate -> gateway, and 10 seconds gateway -> warpgate.
13 seconds for the full cycle, which is what really matters here since you want to start each cycle as a warpgate.
On May 18 2010 03:41 bubusls wrote:
I can just trust what you are saying since it seems you've done some research, but you gave me an idea, that I haven't tested, and I don't have the timing in my mind. What I'm thinking is : if the cooldown time of a warp gate is longer than turning the warpgate into a gateway and back, couldn't you , instead of wayiting for the waprgate cooldown to finish, just turn the warpgate into a gateway and back to be able to warp another unit faster ? I'm not sure this is true, so that's why I'm asking.
Edit: The cooldown remains on the warpgate if you just do that. If you build a unit in the middle you can take advantage of the otherwise "dead" time on the warpgate.
@Putrio, no, see my first comment above.
On May 18 2010 03:48 Tin_Foil wrote:
The warpgate doesn't use unit production times. Warpgates always cool down in the same amount of time, I think its 30 seconds, so your times are incorrect.
I think you method may be faster once, but if you tried it again youd have to add the change time in twice, Im not sure though.
No. Warpgate warp-in times are 10 seconds shorter than that unit's production time.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Warpgate
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On May 18 2010 03:32 crate wrote:
I've never seen anyone doing this in a game. The only reasonable explanations I can see are that either the players don't know about it, or that they've decided it's too damn hard to get any benefit from.
I'm going to assume the top players are good enough to benefit so they must have just not thought of this.
Protoss produces units faster by switching between gateways and warpgates. I'm going to have all times in game-seconds in this post.
It takes 13 seconds to switch from a warpgate to a gateway and back. Gateways can produce units while the warpgate part of that gateway is on cooldown, and the cooldown continues to decrease while it's not in warpgate form. For the most extreme benefit, consider making a templar (either type) and a zealot from one gateway/warpgate:
As a warpgate, it takes 45 + 23 = 68 seconds to warp-in both units and then have the warpgate off-cooldown again. If instead you warp-in the templar, immediately switch to a gateway, and gateway-build the zealot then change back to a warpgate, you will have both units done and your warpgate off cooldown in 46 seconds (13 to switch + 33 for zealot).
For building even two stalkers you speed up production by doing this: warping in 2 stalkers is 64 seconds. Warping in one then gateway-building the other completes both in 55 seconds. You can do the math yourself for other unit combinations.
This does not speed up straight zealots, but does speed up every other two-unit combination. You always want to warp-in the longer build time unit and gateway-build the other.
The only real downsides I see are that this doesn't give you as much control over where your units spawn as just using warpgates and that you need to time a lot of different actions pretty well to benefit. I'd still think this has some in-game applications since it potentially offers as much of a production benefit as chrono boost (and of course you can chrono boost on top of it for even more production benefit), though at my level it's more beneficial to just build another warpgate or three instead.
Pretty sweet idea, but doesn't this just fix bad macro?
Ideally, starcraft players with the exception of zerg maybe, wants to keep their resources at a super minimum through-out the game. To do this right, you have sufficient production facilities to meet your resources to bring them down to 0 every 'round'.
With your idea, you'll need an odd number of gateways, and weird timings to keep your resources 0. You might need less gateways if you do it right, but I would rather have more warp gates warping rather than less gateways rallying.
Even if you are pro, this would be super hard to pull off correctly and not as beneficial of having your army warped across the map.
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Hmm.. I would like to see how this is useful in-game. Having 3 gateways/warpgates doing this method compared to the 4-5 warpgate warp in may seem more cost effective at first, but as a battle drags on you have to deal with the walk distance from your base, where with 4 or 5 warpgates you have the instant spawn and you can still keep your money down. Ultimately you're looking at saving some money on gateways/warpgates for the initial attack but having a diminished ability to reinforce quickly.. You could try to even these options out by using 3 gateways/warpgates for the initial attack, then adding in more warpgates as your attack continues.. This would mean a stronger initial attack (due to not using the saved minerals at the beginning not spent on warpgates/gateways), but then a period where you have to back off and wait for your reinforcements to arrive / more warpgates to finish.. so the prospect of a constant attack is lost.
On the other hand, for builds where you aren't doing timing attacks this could definitely save some cash at certain points.
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This could probably be used very effectively for some early rushes or timing pushes. Perhaps later in the game when the warping is needed to protect all of the protoss basses it may not be as useful, but if you can get out a bunch of stalkers for a timing push much faster than you would have been able to without using this technique it would definitely be worth it.
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I stand corrected - as I've never tried to warp one *back* I assumed the time was the same both ways. If you take into consideration mobility though, especially on larger maps, unless you're just massing an army, I don't see it being that much of a benefit. If you're trying to defend on multiple fronts, you're going to need to be able to warp in units as fast as possible, and that decreases that ability by nearly the same amount of time as the total. I'm at work so I can't test exact times, but assuming a 3s warp in and 30s cooldown, you could warp in 6 units given my initial scenario in one base, wait 30s and warp 6 into another base with solely warpgates. If you went back to GWs, you'd warp in 6, transform back, 3s, summon/build zealots, 33s, and then have to run them to your other base. If that makes any sense at all, haha.
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On May 18 2010 03:48 Tin_Foil wrote:
The warpgate doesn't use unit production times. Warpgates always cool down in the same amount of time, I think its 30 seconds, so your times are incorrect.
I think you method may be faster once, but if you tried it again youd have to add the change time in twice, Im not sure though.
Um, no. Warpgate cool down is the unit's Gateway production time -10 seconds, starting after the 5 second Warp in period. So, according to the OP's suggestion, the math goes as such for Stalkers...
Warp In + Gateway Change + Production + Warpgate Change + Warp in = 3 units.
5 + 3 + 42 + 10 + 5 = 65 seconds for 3 Stalkers
Versus pure Warpgate for Stalkers.
Warp in + Cooldown + Warp in + Cooldown + Warp in= 3 units
5 + 32 + 5 + 32 + 5 = 79 seconds for 3 Stalkers
The down side is one Stalker will be at your base, but if you are just Macro'ing before you push out, that won't be an issue. But during an attack, it would be better to just warp in at your forward pylon, as travel distance would negate any gain from slightly faster production.
However, I fear for many people this will be to APM taxing and will require solid timing and using both W and a hotkey for the Gateways.
I could see this being extremely useful in clutch situations where a push has failed, and you need to replace units ASAP for defense against a counter-push.
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That's very interesting actually. But like Azuremen said, it would probably be way too APM taxing. If people can successfully pull off a crazy timing push using this method, blizz will probably just make it so the warp gate cooldown only decreases while the building is in warp gate mode, which would easily and effectively kill this very creative strategy.
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On May 18 2010 03:55 Azuremen wrote:
Um, no. Warpgate cool down is the unit's Gateway production time -10 seconds, starting after the 5 second Warp in period. So, according to the OP's suggestion, the math goes as such for Stalkers...
Warp In + Gateway Change + Production + Warpgate Change + Warp in = 3 units.
5 + 3 + 42 + 10 + 5 = 65 seconds for 3 Stalkers
You can start changing out of a warpgate before the 5 second warp-in of the unit is completed. Once the unit starts warping in, it'll finish even if the warpgate is changing to a gateway.
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personally I just have enough warpgates to spend all my money, so switching back and forth wouldn't make a difference because I can't produce off that.
would be a cool trick for lategame when your money is too high though.
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It's really not that taxing on APM...
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On May 18 2010 03:59 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 03:55 Azuremen wrote:
Um, no. Warpgate cool down is the unit's Gateway production time -10 seconds, starting after the 5 second Warp in period. So, according to the OP's suggestion, the math goes as such for Stalkers...
Warp In + Gateway Change + Production + Warpgate Change + Warp in = 3 units.
5 + 3 + 42 + 10 + 5 = 65 seconds for 3 Stalkers You can start changing out of a warpgate before the 5 second warp-in of the unit is completed. Once the unit starts warping in, it'll finish even if the warpgate is changing to a gateway.
Thank you for that. So 60 seconds versus 79 now, nearly 75% the total time, so basically a 5 to 4 ratio of unit production over time. Not massive but that means 4 Warp/Gateways instead of 5, which is an extra Stalker or Zealot, or maybe that Immortal you need, etc. And as anyone knows, one more unit can make all the difference.
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EPT
