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Canada2480 Posts
here is a question I have about 3 hatch before pool
after watching Jaedong beat flash using 3 hatch before pool I thought..well why not do it myself
so here is the replay
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=33095
i start with 3 hatch before pool
I put down a few sunkens in case of an early attack
I double expand amd get 9 mutas(i can afford it since my build gave me such a ridiculous econ)
make the worst muta micro of my life and still have the lead cause my build is imba
sees him scan my double expo...put down a few sunkens there
fend off his attack with 3 mutas and 3 sunkens
make 12 lurkers and steamroll him
I was never under 1000 minerals
end of game i was at 10000 but thats because i didnt care about macro anymore...i knew it was over
he never stood a chance(unless he had scanned my expos but thats just cause im friggin bad at this game)
im just D so dont start to comment my poor execution as reasons why this build cant work and especially not my muta micro
im just here to ask if a reasonably good player could pull this build off vs a standard terran build (say 1 rax fast expand)
if you have something to say that might help me improve then by all mean say it
(i acted dumb and made more drones early on instead of putting down my pool... the lings and sunken could be there faster)
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Asking if this build works against 1rax fe is like asking if 14cc works against 12hatch 3hatch.
Obviously it will work. 3hatch before pool is designed to work precisely against 1rax fe.
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dont do it bunker rush with 11 rax even beats this
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The terran wasn't too great...and when you 3 hatch before pool, I feel that you really should be drone scouting. Jaedong didn't because he knew exactly who he was playing, and personally, I think Jaedong won that series mentally, especially after flash lost all his momentum after game 3.
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12 hat 13 hat 12 pool isn't bad on certain maps when you're pretty sure your opponent isn't going to bunker rush.
You will either have a small economic advantage or lose humiliatingly.
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So you think one game warrants a build being imba? Think of this like 14CC TvZ or 14 Nexus PvT..huge econ lead if you pull it off against a standard build, instant loss at any kind of all in (ok so not for 14 nexus X_X). Thing with T is even if he opts to go 9 depot 11 rax he can easily bunker rush you if he scouts first
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On March 16 2010 12:20 SubtleArt wrote:
So you think one game warrants a build being imba? Think of this like 14CC TvZ or 14 Nexus PvT..huge econ lead if you pull it off against a standard build, instant loss at any kind of all in (ok so not for 14 nexus X_X). Thing with T is even if he opts to go 9 depot 11 rax he can easily bunker rush you if he scouts first
14 nexus and 12 nexus are safer than most, but only because Terran rarely opens with infantry aggression in TvP.
All of these builds are terrible against aggressive or all-in play that's decided before scouting the builds, and advantaged against any play that's decided after scouting the builds. It's an attempt to win the opening build order gamble.
...unless you scout first and know they're not cheesing. But of course that slows your build and diminishes the advantage gained.
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United States2186 Posts
12 Nexus is the safest build in the game there's virtually no risk at all unless you tell them you're going to do it and they proxy bbs you.
And yes 3 hatch before pool will get the economic advantage vs 1 rax FE and be safe to a bunker rush + scv pull from that, but it does require solid micro/decision making to be able to handle that bunker rush.
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my question would be how do you create the advantage you get doing 3hatch before pool vs 1 rax FE in terms of a 3 hatch muta build. do you get your second gas earlier due to more drones? evo before spire? I couldn't find any info on liquipedia or past strategy threads.
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It comes in the form of minerals, which translates first into more drones, then to sunkens for defense and/or zerglings for unit count. This is the strongest economically, where you delay your lair a little for a chunk of more drones, meaning you'll have so much more cash later on to use to power your tech.
Complete opposite of the 2hatch style.
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You continue on with a 3hatch builds on the same timings after the 12hatch 14hatch 13pool 12gas. If you were planning on going Crazy Zerg then you would get your evo after lair, etc. etc. You shouldn't look at no pool 3hatch as a completely different build, but rather just as a greedier opening to a 3hatch build. You don't do this radically different; just the same build with more drones, stronger eco. It will give you more minerals than a standard 3hatch which will allow you to take your third faster and make more lings in the midgame. Try to look at no pool 3hatch sortof like you would 14cc. The Terran still continues on similarly to a 1rax fe, it's just that he will be able to churn out an ungodly number of rines in the midgame.
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On March 16 2010 13:41 Ver wrote:
12 Nexus is the safest build in the game there's virtually no risk at all unless you tell them you're going to do it and they proxy bbs you.
And yes 3 hatch before pool will get the economic advantage vs 1 rax FE and be safe to a bunker rush + scv pull from that, but it does require solid micro/decision making to be able to handle that bunker rush.
Have you watched like any progames at all?
When someone goes 12 13 or 14 nexus they get like 4-7 scvs make a bunker in range of nexus and if they succeed they win.
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On March 16 2010 14:39 splcer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 13:41 Ver wrote:
12 Nexus is the safest build in the game there's virtually no risk at all unless you tell them you're going to do it and they proxy bbs you.
And yes 3 hatch before pool will get the economic advantage vs 1 rax FE and be safe to a bunker rush + scv pull from that, but it does require solid micro/decision making to be able to handle that bunker rush. Have you watched like any progames at all? When someone goes 12 13 or 14 nexus they get like 4-7 scvs make a bunker in range of nexus and if they succeed they win.
Terrans love to exaggerate the strength of 12 nexus. However, pulling SCVs + building a bunker to kill the nexus sets the Terran economically behind since the Protoss can retract his probes, not lose them, and often make a few extra probes with the nexus before it dies. It's not cost effective to send SCVs all the way to the opponent's base to attack a 400 mineral structure that has 1500HP, and the Terran generally will not have he units in place to properly exploit the Protoss's delayed tech in time. The bunker is generally not as helpful as you'd think, since goons can either run past it or (with range) pelt it from out of reach.
I'm curious whether Terran could respond to fast nexus plays with bunker rush --> CC --> fact, with the bunker in position to shoot Dragoons emerging from the ramp to make it harder for the Protoss to run past the bunker or to focus enough ranged dragoons on it to counter 2-3 SCV repair. (Probably supporting this with more marines than is normal, and perhaps a second bunker.) Like a more aggressive take on the rax CC openings that also function reasonably against nexus-first.
Forward rax, and/or rax before depot, also help bunker rushes a lot, since you'll have marines in place much quicker.
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I find it funny that there is this post along with another saying "TvZ 3 Hatch Muta Crappy?"
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On March 16 2010 16:09 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 14:39 splcer wrote:On March 16 2010 13:41 Ver wrote:
12 Nexus is the safest build in the game there's virtually no risk at all unless you tell them you're going to do it and they proxy bbs you.
And yes 3 hatch before pool will get the economic advantage vs 1 rax FE and be safe to a bunker rush + scv pull from that, but it does require solid micro/decision making to be able to handle that bunker rush. Have you watched like any progames at all? When someone goes 12 13 or 14 nexus they get like 4-7 scvs make a bunker in range of nexus and if they succeed they win. Terrans love to exaggerate the strength of 12 nexus. However, pulling SCVs + building a bunker to kill the nexus sets the Terran economically behind since the Protoss can retract his probes, not lose them, and often make a few extra probes with the nexus before it dies. It's not cost effective to send SCVs all the way to the opponent's base to attack a 400 mineral structure that has 1500HP, and the Terran generally will not have he units in place to properly exploit the Protoss's delayed tech in time. The bunker is generally not as helpful as you'd think, since goons can either run past it or (with range) pelt it from out of reach. I'm curious whether Terran could respond to fast nexus plays with bunker rush --> CC --> fact, with the bunker in position to shoot Dragoons emerging from the ramp to make it harder for the Protoss to run past the bunker or to focus enough ranged dragoons on it to counter 2-3 SCV repair. (Probably supporting this with more marines than is normal, and perhaps a second bunker.) Like a more aggressive take on the rax CC openings that also function reasonably against nexus-first. Forward rax, and/or rax before depot, also help bunker rushes a lot, since you'll have marines in place much quicker.
The reinforcing vulture is essential to the bunker rush for spider mines and also since range/obs will be very delayed. The protoss cuts probes in order to get the faster nex and have enough gateways to survive so sending those scvs is worth it.
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it's only as imba as 14cc - if you can get away with it you'll be at an advantage but if you don't you'll lose then and there
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On March 16 2010 14:39 splcer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 13:41 Ver wrote:
12 Nexus is the safest build in the game there's virtually no risk at all unless you tell them you're going to do it and they proxy bbs you.
And yes 3 hatch before pool will get the economic advantage vs 1 rax FE and be safe to a bunker rush + scv pull from that, but it does require solid micro/decision making to be able to handle that bunker rush. Have you watched like any progames at all? When someone goes 12 13 or 14 nexus they get like 4-7 scvs make a bunker in range of nexus and if they succeed they win.
its already been discussed and tested that if p gives up their nat nexus and saves their probes they're still ahead even if they lose their nexus.
The only games where the bunker rush kills the p or cripples them is if the p microed poorly and lost probes. Otherwise p is still ahead.
You should check out bisu vs light on outsider of an example where the bisu loses his nexus but the game still went to late game.
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On March 16 2010 17:26 -ty[r]ant wrote:
I find it funny that there is this post along with another saying "TvZ 3 Hatch Muta Crappy?"
3 Hatch before pool is not necessarily 3hatch muta. 3 hatch muta is something like this:
9/9 drones
9/9 Overlord
12 Hatch
11 pool
Drones til 13
13 Hatch
12 Extractor
Then you tech to muta asap, getting ling speed/sunkens as necessary. And a standard 3hatch muta build generally goes off of two base, so the third hatchery either goes at your main or your natural. This is because standard play doesn't allow you to go 3 base against M&M build without getting a sunken break or severely delaying your mutas, which cannot be done. Delayed mutas = delayed lurkers and ineffective harass = weak lurkers = rush to hive tech = weak 2 base ultraling build = lose (against a decent player)
Also, 3 hatch before pool is very risky against a terran who knows timings very well (ie, can keep his scout alive long enough to realize your pool is way late and will probably either rush M&M to break your main/deny your double expo, or he'll set up a bunker contain at your natural so your bases are cut off, which is a pretty bad situation either way you cut it.
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On March 17 2010 02:49 Stropheum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 17:26 -ty[r]ant wrote:
I find it funny that there is this post along with another saying "TvZ 3 Hatch Muta Crappy?" 3 Hatch before pool is not necessarily 3hatch muta. 3 hatch muta is something like this: 9/9 drones 9/9 Overlord 12 Hatch 11 pool Drones til 13 13 Hatch 12 Extractor Then you tech to muta asap, getting ling speed/sunkens as necessary. And a standard 3hatch muta build generally goes off of two base, so the third hatchery either goes at your main or your natural. This is because standard play doesn't allow you to go 3 base against M&M build without getting a sunken break or severely delaying your mutas, which cannot be done. Delayed mutas = delayed lurkers and ineffective harass = weak lurkers = rush to hive tech = weak 2 base ultraling build = lose (against a decent player) Also, 3 hatch before pool is very risky against a terran who knows timings very well (ie, can keep his scout alive long enough to realize your pool is way late and will probably either rush M&M to break your main/deny your double expo, or he'll set up a bunker contain at your natural so your bases are cut off, which is a pretty bad situation either way you cut it.
What are you talking about? You NEVER double expo in ZvT (except maybe for some crazy hidden expo strat). 3 hatch before pool gets the hatch in base just like with a normal 3 hatch build.
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EPT
