EPTZvT 3 hatch before pool imba? - Page 2
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TelecoM
United States10700 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On March 16 2010 18:41 Crunchums wrote: it's only as imba as 14cc - if you can get away with it you'll be at an advantage but if you don't you'll lose then and there Except you always get away with it against 1 rax CC, the only time you lose is to rax first builds. 3 hatch before pool is VERY good especially on 2 player maps where you can drone scout them to ensure they aren't doing rax first. If you drone scout anyway on a larger map and see them making the 11 rax just go ahead and 3 hatch before pool assuming you understand the theory behind how to beat the 1 rax CC bunker rush/scv pull available here. On March 17 2010 02:49 Stropheum wrote: Also, 3 hatch before pool is very risky against a terran who knows timings very well (ie, can keep his scout alive long enough to realize your pool is way late and will probably either rush M&M to break your main/deny your double expo, or he'll set up a bunker contain at your natural so your bases are cut off, which is a pretty bad situation either way you cut it. This isn't true at all. On March 16 2010 14:39 splcer wrote: Have you watched like any progames at all? When someone goes 12 13 or 14 nexus they get like 4-7 scvs make a bunker in range of nexus and if they succeed they win. Have you actually thought about what goes on in those games? It's not nearly as cut and dry as that. To simplify it look at it this way: 1) Protoss does 12 Nexus properly and makes zeal first into 2 gate goon while Terran bunker rushes and rallies vultures. 2.Terran brings 3-5ish scvs : a) Protoss can fight with probes/zeal and they have the relative superiority here but Terran can win if they outmicro them (in flash vs Movie Flash traps the zeal with 3 scvs + probes and kills it, really great move). Whichever side loses is more or less going to lose the game. b) Protoss can simply mine minerals at nat/make probes, retreat when necessary, and don't engage. Terran comes out slightly ahead here but not enough ahead to make any plays to increase their lead further. 3. Terran brings 6-7+ scvs: a) Protoss should not fight or they will lose the Nexus and their probes and thus the game unless they have some abnormal advantage like this. b) Protoss can simply mine minerals at nat/make probes, retreat when necessary, and don't engage. Terran comes out anywhere from slightly behind to a fair bit behind depending on how well the Protoss optimized everything and how early they sent back scvs and rush distance. In addition you have little small things like mineral locations, rush distance, whether the Terran makes their first marine immediately upon rax finishes or waits a bit that all affect the equation but that should be a good representation of the various options available. Along with Light/Bisu as ils suggested consider taking a look at Best vs Notice. Best is able to continue mining/producing probes at the expo until the vulture comes, whereupon he retreats them to the main until his first goon comes, then he continues mining until the Nexus dies. It shouldn't be hard to see how doing all that puts him ahead (and the game clearly shows that he is sizably ahead). On March 16 2010 16:09 Severedevil wrote: Terrans love to exaggerate the strength of 12 nexus. However, pulling SCVs + building a bunker to kill the nexus sets the Terran economically behind since the Protoss can retract his probes, not lose them, and often make a few extra probes with the nexus before it dies. It's not cost effective to send SCVs all the way to the opponent's base to attack a 400 mineral structure that has 1500HP, and the Terran generally will not have he units in place to properly exploit the Protoss's delayed tech in time. The bunker is generally not as helpful as you'd think, since goons can either run past it or (with range) pelt it from out of reach. I'm curious whether Terran could respond to fast nexus plays with bunker rush --> CC --> fact, with the bunker in position to shoot Dragoons emerging from the ramp to make it harder for the Protoss to run past the bunker or to focus enough ranged dragoons on it to counter 2-3 SCV repair. (Probably supporting this with more marines than is normal, and perhaps a second bunker.) Like a more aggressive take on the rax CC openings that also function reasonably against nexus-first. Forward rax, and/or rax before depot, also help bunker rushes a lot, since you'll have marines in place much quicker. Unfortunately you can't go cc before fact if you bunker rush unless they immediately retreat their units but by then it's too late to make that decision (plus this involves first scouting and super early scout so you don't take your gas which is incredibly limited). There is a certain period where you will have a vulture and they won't have a goon and that's usually what ensures the victory if they decide to fight and don't screw up the micro right away. See Flash vs Movie on FS. This is the reason why bunker rushing on HBR is impossible (they can pylon wall the choke and prevent the vulture from assisting). See Bisu vs Flash on HBR. Forward Rax definitely puts the Terran ahead so long as they don't scout them last because they have to bring much fewer scvs and the Protoss can't really fight anyway against the additional marines, meaning that the Terran can somewhat deny mining at the expo and new probes being made. Unfortunately I am not exaggerating for the strength of it against virtually every Terran; when I play PvT for fun I 12 Nexus every single game as the only three builds 99% of Terrans know is 2 fact, 2 base timing attack. and Flash build. 2 base timing pushes and 2 facts auto lose vs 12 Nexus but most people don't realize this and against Fash builds you can just increase your advantage exponentially by expanding earlier than you should be able to because your earlier Nexus lets you, then expand even earlier for your 4th because the earlier nat and 3rd, and so on. Unless you are going to cheese someone or you are playing them 10x in a row and want to avoid proxy bbs there is zero reason to ever do anything besides 12 Nexus. It's especially hilarious to see a lot of foreigner Protosses do 2 gate obs Nexus when they could just do 12 Nexus and be better off vs everything. Pros however can't play hidden games, which is why they cannot 12 Nexus every single game or else they WILL get proxy bbs'ed. With complete understanding of the game 12 Nexus is not that threatening on a lot of maps because mine double expand puts you nicely ahead very safely and opens a very potent timing window on a lot of maps and oov's build will punish the normal 12 Nexus transition into an overly fast 3rd. The exception is certain maps/spawns, on say Tornado cross positions and they go 2 base arb, then there is literally nothing you can do besides accept a large disadvantage because you can't mine double expand, bunker rush becomes questionable at best, and oov's build isn't going to work well. Same for Fighting Spirit when the P is clockwise from the T (oov's build bad on that map and mine double expand can't defend vs 2 base bulldog) and a bunch of other maps/situations. But the amount of people who understand all of this are very very few even on the pro scene so 12 Nexus away happily and hope you don't run into the one in a million player who actually does get it and you'll enjoy a nice, completely safe advantage almost every game. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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Hithran
Canada57 Posts
On March 17 2010 04:14 ProoM wrote: If I don't execute this build (3hbp) perfectly and 3rd hatch isn't in some inside mineral expansion, I find myself behind economically. So I'd recommend you not using it unless you got the exact build written, perfected and confirmed (3hbp-> 3hm). (Things to consider: how many drones before 2nd and 3rd hatch? how many drones between 3rd hatch and pool? how many drones between pool and gas? when to get the 2nd gas? when to get the evo chamber? when to get the ling speed?) on the previous page it was suggested 12hatch 14hatch 13pool 12gas, with timings the same as 3 hatch muta, except from what i understand you will have surplus minerals that will allow you to get a third expo faster and more lings, while getting a quicker third gas and still having enough minerals for mutas when spire finishes. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
And how could you be economically behind if you 3hatch before pool against a 1rax fe? Even if there isn't an inside min expo like Andromeda and Medusa, you'll still be economically ahead against a 1rax fe. On March 17 2010 02:49 Stropheum wrote: 3 Hatch before pool is not necessarily 3hatch muta. 3 hatch muta is something like this: 9/9 drones 9/9 Overlord 12 Hatch 11 pool Drones til 13 13 Hatch 12 Extractor Then you tech to muta asap, getting ling speed/sunkens as necessary. And a standard 3hatch muta build generally goes off of two base, so the third hatchery either goes at your main or your natural. This is because standard play doesn't allow you to go 3 base against M&M build without getting a sunken break or severely delaying your mutas, which cannot be done. Delayed mutas = delayed lurkers and ineffective harass = weak lurkers = rush to hive tech = weak 2 base ultraling build = lose (against a decent player) Also, 3 hatch before pool is very risky against a terran who knows timings very well (ie, can keep his scout alive long enough to realize your pool is way late and will probably either rush M&M to break your main/deny your double expo, or he'll set up a bunker contain at your natural so your bases are cut off, which is a pretty bad situation either way you cut it. No. | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
against a 1rax fe this could have potential but on a 2 player map.. (chupong, blue storm, desti) your opponent can succesfully bunker you of course 2 rax sunk break or an 8 rax bunker rush would kill this automatiacally but.. on 4 p maps with long distances.. this is a solid build | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On March 17 2010 04:38 koreasilver wrote: Man, Proom, you're saying some really, really wrong things. In that closed 3hatch muta thread you said something about 3hatch and 2hatch both getting mutas around the same time when the muta timings are 7:30 for 3hatch mutas, 6:30 for standard 2hatch mutas, and 6:00 for 12pool 2hatch. Those are significant timing differences. 3 hat mutas 9 mutas pop out at 6:49 2 hat mutas 9th muta pop out at ~6:42 Huge difference ech? | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17733 Posts
2 hatch mutas 5:40 big difference | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On March 17 2010 05:34 koreasilver wrote: ROFL you can't compare it as "when the 9th muta comes out". That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Why so? I never said 3 hat mutas comes anywhere around 2 hat mutas, just said that 9 mutas comes out at approx the same time from both builds, which means if u cant do magic with 6-8 mutas of 2 hat mutas, you have to consider if it's worth doing it :}. On March 17 2010 05:40 koreasilver wrote: People don't measure the timings for when the mutas pop but rather the rough average time when the mutas arrive at the Terran's base. People used to call Yarnc and Yellow's 2hatch muta build on Blue Storm the "6:30 build" because the mutas arrived at the Terran at roughly 6:30. It doesn't matter when it arrives, because it varies on the map a lot. Also, we are'nt talking about turret timings or anything like that. In Python air-close positions mutas travel like 5 seconds and In Desti mutas travel like 20 seconds, the point that matters and can be measured from is when they spawn. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
And of course variances in maps makes the timing as to when the mutas arrive, but the general rule of thumb is 7:30, 6:30, and 6:00, and that's how it's known. Regardless, 2hatch mutas is roughly 1 minute faster than 3hatch mutas, and it is by the initial muta timing that you measure the muta timing, not when you have the same number of mutas (lolwtf). I'm just calling you out because you have been making some really stupid and misleading posts over the past few months in the strategy forum :}. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On March 17 2010 02:49 Stropheum wrote: 3 Hatch before pool is not necessarily 3hatch muta. 3 hatch muta is something like this: 9/9 drones 9/9 Overlord 12 Hatch 11 pool Drones til 13 13 Hatch 12 Extractor Then you tech to muta asap, getting ling speed/sunkens as necessary. And a standard 3hatch muta build generally goes off of two base, so the third hatchery either goes at your main or your natural. This is because standard play doesn't allow you to go 3 base against M&M build without getting a sunken break or severely delaying your mutas, which cannot be done. Delayed mutas = delayed lurkers and ineffective harass = weak lurkers = rush to hive tech = weak 2 base ultraling build = lose (against a decent player) Also, 3 hatch before pool is very risky against a terran who knows timings very well (ie, can keep his scout alive long enough to realize your pool is way late and will probably either rush M&M to break your main/deny your double expo, or he'll set up a bunker contain at your natural so your bases are cut off, which is a pretty bad situation either way you cut it. what the hell are you talking about. Rush mm? Mm will be weaker than normal cuz Zerg can affor more lings if desired without being setback from normal timings. ANY player could see the delayed pool it's just that you wouldn't be able to do anything about it as terran. A bunker at the choke is the absolute last thing you would want to do. | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
On March 17 2010 03:02 QuakerOats wrote: What are you talking about? You NEVER double expo in ZvT (except maybe for some crazy hidden expo strat). 3 hatch before pool gets the hatch in base just like with a normal 3 hatch build. What am i talking about? read the op, he clearly says "double expand" I don't know how you do that without...expanding? And if you read my post, i'm arguing against this strat specifically because it advocates double expanding, which is stupid should you face any reasonably decent opponent. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
It is nigh impossible to successfully double expand after a 3hatch build. It is possible to double expand after 2hatch mutas, however, as your faster tech gives you a longer period of initiative compared to a 3hatch build. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On March 17 2010 04:27 Hithran wrote: on the previous page it was suggested 12hatch 14hatch 13pool 12gas, with timings the same as 3 hatch muta, except from what i understand you will have surplus minerals that will allow you to get a third expo faster and more lings, while getting a quicker third gas and still having enough minerals for mutas when spire finishes. Actually the ones the pros use goes 12 hat 13 hat 12 pool 11 gas Just saying | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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