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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Why is that even a question, I don't know. But I'm sure most Protoss who have had the misfortune of encountering them have arrived at the same conclusion. These guys are ridiculously good. Not only is their damage output insane thanks to their broodlings, but their broodlings also fuck with units AI making attacking them that much harder. Furthermore, I feel that Protoss have no respectable answer to them.
Sure, Phoenix can work but in reality, Corruptors dominate them. Furthermore, the armored type of the Corruptor and Broodlord make phoenix extremely ineffective. Voidrays sound like a good answer, but in my games I never end up getting them because the threat of a hydra switch is too great and simply massing up on Voids when I need the gas for Colossi/Templar is just silly.
I just don't know anymore, my latest encounter with them is one where I am able to beat them but the amount of damage they dealt was insane. Especially considering how dead WaxAngel was. To beat them this game, I warped in Stalker with blink. They worked pretty well, but if Wax wasn't so dead then I'm sure Zergling reinforcements would have squelched them easily. It's REALLY depressing.
If you don't beleive me, check out the rep: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/broodlords_wtf.sc2replay - it speaks volumes on the insane power they have.
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I've had issues with them as T, too. I've lost about 4-5 games in which I was dominating due to 3-5 of them enterting the battlefield. T has more adequate ways of dealing with them, but still, they are extremely annoying mainly due to the fact that they mess with AI worse than carriers. At least carrier interceptors don't block your movement.
I'm not really sure about the balance of them, but yeah, they seem damn good.
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Its totally differen from guardians who you can just run in under the barragae of hits and focus fire with marines, thanks to their attacks being ACTUAL units and auto surround you basically are unable to move forward. Then again the only time I've faced brood lords is when the zerg is on its last leg and its usually not enough to be a threat.
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Can point defense drone intercept the broodlings?
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Protoss never have any answer to air.
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Broodlords cost a lot of gas. Its basically zerg's ultimate unit. Also broodlords are mega slow like the other awesome air units. They are definately good but I really dont think they are OP. Pheonix is a pretty good AA unit if you get a good amount of them. Corruptors are better in a fight but I would rather have the gravity beam over the puke. You can use your phoenix to kill OLs or just gravity beam up ground units for control or harass.
The thing about corrupters is no zerg wants to waste gas on them, they want them for broodlords or to defend broodlords. So if you spent all your gas on phoenix and a zerg went for a mix you should have the larger AA force, and you can wreck some gravity havoc with a lot of phoenix.
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How much hp do broodlings have? I wonder if zealots ever get to the point of 1 shotting them.
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heh, i'll bet you wish you still had scouts, huh?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 05 2010 18:03 Medzo wrote:
Broodlords cost a lot of gas. Its basically zerg's ultimate unit. Also broodlords are mega slow like the other awesome air units. They are definately good but I really dont think they are OP. Pheonix is a pretty good AA unit if you get a good amount of them. Corruptors are better in a fight but I would rather have the gravity beam over the puke. You can use your phoenix to kill OLs or just gravity beam up ground units for control or harass.
The thing about corrupters is no zerg wants to waste gas on them, they want them for broodlords or to defend broodlords. So if you spent all your gas on phoenix and a zerg went for a mix you should have the larger AA force, and you can wreck some gravity havoc with a lot of phoenix.
I dont disagree with the fact that phoenix are a good AA unit but broodlords are never rushed too. The Zerg should still have hydra lying about and if I'm powering everything into Phoenix then I'm not going to have colossus (or storm) and my phoenix force is going to be raped by Hydralisks before they even get to broodlords. Furthermore, if they went spire then they are going to counter phoenix with corruptor - because corruptors are REALLY good AA. Any spare ones left over after Phoenix harass at the start, or a phoenix transition, are just going to be turned into broodlords.
You solution is good in theory, but it doesn't work in practice imo. Not against clever zergs at least.
I agree that Broodlords are like the ultimate unit for Zergs, but why can Zergs kill off my carriers but I can't kill off their broodlords D:
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United States33432 Posts
BW had such a great ZvP air mechanic going on
Sair vs Muta/Scourge is pretty much a battle of who is better at micro. Protoss can win it convincingly if he chooses to do so, but only by making so many sairs he has to sacrifice ground. Then Zerg faces the same choice if he wants to make devourers, as Devourer + Muta > Sair, but you give up making hydralisks and other ground units because devs are mineral heavy 
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United States7166 Posts
uh yeah no phoenixes are about equal to corruptors in a head to head fight, except that phoenixes move like twice as fast (kind of like scourge vs slightly slower dropship) so they can always just run if corruptor numbers are too high, plus can EASILY pull away the near dead phoenixes basically never losing a phoenix to a corruptor. however if corruptors are too outnumbered they just all die when trying to flee.
you have to realize plexa that corruptors also dont get any bonuses vs phoenixes, so phoenixes are actually fair vs them. i'm assuming you tried to start building up a phoenix army when he already had several corruptors..obviously you'll be outmatched..
however the corruptor is such an uninteresting air to air unit, they should redesign imo. phoenixes are similar except their ability is pretty sweet. but air to air theyre uninteresting. bring back scourge or corsairs imo
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 05 2010 18:40 Zelniq wrote:
uh yeah no phoenixes are about equal to corruptors in a head to head fight, except that phoenixes move like twice as fast (kind of like scourge vs slightly slower dropship) so they can always just run if corruptor numbers are too high, plus can EASILY pull away the near dead phoenixes basically never losing a phoenix to a corruptor. however if corruptors are too outnumbered they just all die when trying to flee.
you have to realize plexa that corruptors also dont get any bonuses vs phoenixes, so phoenixes are actually fair vs them. i'm assuming you tried to start building up a phoenix army when he already had several corruptors..obviously you'll be outmatched..
however the corruptor is such an uninteresting air to air unit, they should redesign imo. phoenixes are similar except their ability is pretty sweet. but air to air theyre uninteresting. bring back scourge or corsairs imo
Last I checked Pheonix deal 6 damage to corruptors, they're not fantastic against them by anymeans. Yes I know they can fight head to head okay despite this, but that's not what this thread is about. Unless you're suggesting that every midgame PvZ I start to mass Phoenix, which I don't really think is optimal since to match a Zerg making Corruptor I'd need 2stargate.
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i dont think broodlords are too good atm, although I dont really know against protoss. but messing with them would seriously harm zvt balance, as its about the only thing that saves you from a maxed m&m&m&tank ball
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 05 2010 18:59 damenmofa wrote:
i dont think broodlords are too good atm, although I dont really know against protoss. but messing with them would seriously harm zvt balance, as its about the only thing that saves you from a maxed m&m&m&tank ball
I don't know anything about ZvT but don't Ultralisks work?
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On March 05 2010 19:24 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2010 18:59 damenmofa wrote:
i dont think broodlords are too good atm, although I dont really know against protoss. but messing with them would seriously harm zvt balance, as its about the only thing that saves you from a maxed m&m&m&tank ball I don't know anything about ZvT but don't Ultralisks work?
no think ultralisks without swarm against 7-8+ tanks in bw... Even with swarm its a standard late game strat against ultra/ling to go mass tanks and fortify expansions. Without swarm, any amount of ultras melts against lots of tanks and thats exactly what happens in SC2 (barring some ridiculous 360 sandwich flank with a gazillion crack-/banelings or smth).
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btw, broodlings gain UPGRADES from your EVo chamber.
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Broodlords are one of my favorite units, so great!!! They break terrans with many tanks, and can really put the hurt on in isolated scenarios vs P (like Lost Temple close spots). Remember they are expensive (300/250) and tech heavy as fuck. Remember that 4 broodlords are more expensive than 4 colossus :O
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Personally I feel broodlords aren't what needs a nerf it's corrupter's attack rate. Slow it down to devorer and up pheonixs. That'll help tremendously in anti air capabilities.
Also, hydra ling baneling ultra isn't that terrible against any mnm ball. Saying broodlords are the go to unit is only justifiable cause they have huge range huge damage and have those little PoSes that screw with AI.
Furthermore if you're getting into that late game vs a zerg and he has the cash to throw all that stuff at you, you probably did something wrong in the midgame. There are several incredible timing pushes that protoss has in their arsenal that can completely stop zerg in their tracks. Plus with the combo of storm/harass capabilities I don't think there's much else to say.
Don't know how you feel about this but consider a combination of archons/phoenix/zealot.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 05 2010 20:18 Mente wrote:
Furthermore if you're getting into that late game vs a zerg and he has the cash to throw all that stuff at you, you probably did something wrong in the midgame. There are several incredible timing pushes that protoss has in their arsenal that can completely stop zerg in their tracks. Plus with the combo of storm/harass capabilities I don't think there's much else to say.
If you watch the rep you'll see that Wax went 2base muta -> broodlord and pretty much get steamrolled. But he manages to get 6-7 broodlords on my cliff and I think its pretty ridiculous the amount of damage they can do. Irrespective of the current metagame and whatnot, the very fact these guys can deal an obscene amount of damage is wrong. If SC2 becomes "protoss has to kill zerg in the mid game with a timing push else lategame zerg wins" then again, that's just not right.
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On March 05 2010 20:14 FortuneSyn wrote:
Broodlords are one of my favorite units, so great!!! They break terrans with many tanks, and can really put the hurt on in isolated scenarios vs P (like Lost Temple close spots). Remember they are expensive (300/250) and tech heavy as fuck. Remember that 4 broodlords are more expensive than 4 colossus :O
I think this is the point here, they are a very expensive unit . I think we need A LOT more games played before we can look at late game balance.
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EPT
