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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 05 2010 20:25 Klive5ive wrote: It's less expensive than a Carrier, or a mothership. I don't see the point in including the price tag in this argument I think this is the point here, they are a very expensive unit . I think we need A LOT more games played before we can look at late game balance.  Again, I urge you to watch the rep. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
So essentially broodlords would still rape anything unable to shoot back. | ||
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Mente
United States288 Posts
On March 05 2010 20:24 Plexa wrote: If you watch the rep you'll see that Wax went 2base muta -> broodlord and pretty much get steamrolled. But he manages to get 6-7 broodlords on my cliff and I think its pretty ridiculous the amount of damage they can do. Irrespective of the current metagame and whatnot, the very fact these guys can deal an obscene amount of damage is wrong. If SC2 becomes "protoss has to kill zerg in the mid game with a timing push else lategame zerg wins" then again, that's just not right. I'll watch the replay and let you know what I think further. But lets re-examine starcraft 1 for a second: 2 hatch muta. Remember when that build came out? For a month there was no answer for the terran when it came to that build. Then finally people started getting used to the transition and found a way to deal with that. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
I know this is a very simplistic and flawed way of looking at things, but people often don't take into account the tradeoffs that zerg do when they decide to tech to that in late game... | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3791 Posts
On March 05 2010 17:12 Plexa wrote: Voidrays sound like a good answer, but in my games I never end up getting them because the threat of a hydra switch is too great and simply massing up on Voids when I need the gas for Colossi/Templar is just silly. If this your problem with using void rays I think you'll have to consider the possibility that Protoss in the late game has to out expand Zerg so that way you can offset the switching costs problem. | ||
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Squallcloud
France466 Posts
On March 05 2010 18:44 Plexa wrote: Last I checked Pheonix deal 6 damage to corruptors, they're not fantastic against them by anymeans. Yes I know they can fight head to head okay despite this, but that's not what this thread is about. Unless you're suggesting that every midgame PvZ I start to mass Phoenix, which I don't really think is optimal since to match a Zerg making Corruptor I'd need 2stargate. I don't know if that's what you meant but actually a phoenix has 2 attacks so it's 6*2 = 12 damage to any air unit other than light (+5 against light). Can't watch the replay at work but if you see the 2 hatch muta and you counter with phoenix, if he switch to hydra what's stopping the protoss to switch to an adequate force too? Supposing you see it with an observer or anything. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 05 2010 21:21 Squallcloud wrote: Phoenix deal 2x5 damageI don't know if that's what you meant but actually a phoenix has 2 attacks so it's 6*2 = 12 damage to any air unit other than light (+5 against light). Can't watch the replay at work but if you see the 2 hatch muta and you counter with phoenix, if he switch to hydra what's stopping the protoss to switch to an adequate force too? Supposing you see it with an observer or anything. Corruptor has 2 armor 5-2 = 3 3x2 = 6 The thing is, I was completely dominating Wax. He made some last ditch broodlords and they did a disproportionate amount of damage. | ||
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PrideNeverDies
Kazakhstan74 Posts
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Squallcloud
France466 Posts
On March 05 2010 21:23 Plexa wrote: Phoenix deal 2x5 damage Corruptor has 2 armor 5-2 = 3 3x2 = 6 The thing is, I was completely dominating Wax. He made some last ditch broodlords and they did a disproportionate amount of damage. Ouch i see the armor really hurt. Well err a prayer maybe? :p | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 05 2010 21:56 Squallcloud wrote: Ouch i see the armor really hurt. Well err a prayer maybe? :p As Idra said in another thread, the ideal counter to them are stalkers who get the vs armor bonus. But stalkers just royally suck against everything else sooo... | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
 .Btw: "Protoss has to destroy/put Zerg behind before lategame or has no chance".. Sounds to me a little like: "Zerg has to destroy/put Protoss behind in early/midgame before they can create their Deathball  ." | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
the whole problem in general is that toss doesnt have any good answer to air vs z or p. 5 banshee rape 5 stalker. me and runa tested a banshee (no grades) vs 1 stalker (+2 dmg grade + -2 dmg shield by the sentry) and the banshee still won i think to solve most problems in this game atm would be to make stalkers,storm,archon better and colosus worse | ||
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jabberwokie
Canada142 Posts
Each of the other races has to build a nexus or a command and then 2-3 additional production facilities a piece to even dream of keeping up and I just haven't ever seen non zerg bases with the production capabilities. I haven't done the numbers on cost but it is way more expensive for protoss and terran to build that production infrastructure. Now this can be viewed in another way as well because you can easily snipe queens or sack an expansion here or there if you know what your doing and that really can cripple zerg. In my view Broodlords are not OP a good broodlord army wrecks but what would sc2 be if you couldn't build cool shit that demolishes. I am on the fence about macro balance in sc2 and as a final note I have seen mixed terran and protoss armies that are just as awesome to behold and use as the mixed zerg. As terran ravens are great against broodlords so are vikings and properly microed stimmed marines can still get them sometimes. a battlecruiser or two never hurt anyone though they are more effective vs ground. Protoss have mothership+ pheonix voidray zealot stalker sentry. Don't try to take a 3 base Zerg with 2 base and complain when you lose to unoptomized a-move zerging or crazy tech disadvantages. Broodlings do benifit from ground unit upgrades as posted previously and they have 35 hits they are about = to a zergling. Each broodlord can have like 6-8 down at once (like on a building whree none die) I believe before they self pop but this i have not specificaly tested. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 05 2010 22:41 jabberwokie wrote: While I don't disagree with the notion that you should be "able to build cool shit which demolishes", against Protoss, Broodlords are way too strong. I can't comment against Terran. 4-6 Broodlords are nearly unstoppable and can easily raize a nat in seconds. It's not like 6 colossi are unstoppable - isolated they are quite fragile. There just isn't any good answer against Broodlords as protoss.In my view Broodlords are not OP a good broodlord army wrecks but what would sc2 be if you couldn't build cool shit that demolishes. I am on the fence about macro balance in sc2 and as a final note I have seen mixed terran and protoss armies that are just as awesome to behold and use as the mixed zerg. Protoss have mothership+ pheonix voidray zealot stalker sentry. Does it seem right to you that to counter 6 broodlords i need mothership, phoenix, zealot, stalker and sentry? That's quite sad really. I'm not asking for an easy button (ala immortal vs roach), all I'm asking for is a viable counter which minimizes the damage they're able to do. Something like Dragoon vs Lurker for instance, or Archon vs Muta - something like that. At the moment everything just kinda gets raped - except blinking stalkers which get raped by everything else unfortunately.Don't try to take a 3 base Zerg with 2 base and complain when you lose to unoptomized a-move zerging or crazy tech disadvantages. I never said this anywhere. In fact, in the rep posted it was 2 base vs 2 base, I killed his natural making it 2v1 base and then the broodlords defended then they killed my nat. I was just lucky I was so far ahead else I mightve lost. | ||
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Vexki
Australia36 Posts
Abuse mobility, hit an expansion with some left over zealots / collosi from the midgame which are completely useless against broodlords while you fight his air with your mothership + stalkers / templar / sentries. Go for a late DT drop to try and take out the greater spire or the hive, again, overseers are expensive. Against Terran broodlords are weak, reactor viking spam dominates anything that flies. | ||
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Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
On March 05 2010 22:10 Velr wrote: And i had fears that there won't be PvZ wines in SC2... Good times .Btw: "Protoss has to destroy/put Zerg behind before lategame or has no chance".. Sounds to me a little like: "Zerg has to destroy/put Protoss behind in early/midgame before they can create their Deathball ."Except in sc1 zerg has darkswarm and in sc2.. protoss has archons with no range/less dps and psi storm which does 80 dmg rofl. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On March 05 2010 20:29 Plexa wrote: It's less expensive than a Carrier, or a mothership. I don't see the point in including the price tag in this argument Again, I urge you to watch the rep.I watched the rep but I didn't see anything that makes me jump to the conclusion they are imbalanced. The price tag has everything to do with the argument, it's not like they're immune to damage. The only reason a unit should be nerfed is if it becomes an overwhelming strategy, where everything else is not worth using. At the moment I don't see that being the case with Broodlords. | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
On March 05 2010 23:41 Plexa wrote: While I don't disagree with the notion that you should be "able to build cool shit which demolishes", against Protoss, Broodlords are way too strong. I can't comment against Terran. 4-6 Broodlords are nearly unstoppable and can easily raize a nat in seconds. It's not like 6 colossi are unstoppable - isolated they are quite fragile. There just isn't any good answer against Broodlords as protoss. Does it seem right to you that to counter 6 broodlords i need mothership, phoenix, zealot, stalker and sentry? That's quite sad really. I'm not asking for an easy button (ala immortal vs roach), all I'm asking for is a viable counter which minimizes the damage they're able to do. Something like Dragoon vs Lurker for instance, or Archon vs Muta - something like that. At the moment everything just kinda gets raped - except blinking stalkers which get raped by everything else unfortunately. I never said this anywhere. In fact, in the rep posted it was 2 base vs 2 base, I killed his natural making it 2v1 base and then the broodlords defended then they killed my nat. I was just lucky I was so far ahead else I mightve lost. come on who are you kiddin? 6 collossus ARE pretty much unstoppable by ground forces, except mass ultralisks or smth. Yeah of course they are fragile isolated, but its a bad argument to make. Its the nature of protoss to walk around with strong units that are weak isolated. Hence the ball of death. No half-decent P player will ever get their expensive core units get isolated and picked off easily. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
I remember a game I played recently in which I was up a base on the zerg the entire game long and was unable to stop his force of broodlords/corrupters. The broodlings like spawn surrounding your units preventing them from moving so you can't move into range of the broodlord to kill it and then your unit just attacks the broodlings endlessly (I can't help but feel like spawn broodlings should be a spell rather than something that happens on EVERY attack due to this). It seems like unless you already have mass carriers you just can't stop them once they appear. | ||
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bountyface
United States95 Posts
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