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On March 06 2010 03:56 Kasperknop wrote:
The Brood Lord might be VERY GOOD, but let's not forget the fact that this unit is without comparison the hardest unit to get to in the game.
Are you saying that because of this, they should be overpowered?
This still isn't answering the quandary of what unit mix you can get that broodlord doesn't decimate with its air /hydra support
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United States4471 Posts
Haven't tried it myself, but are archons any good at killing broodlings? Z doesn't have EMP, so the archons' worst enemy isn't an issue. Just thinking aloud here, but it would seem that splash damage would be the best counter to broodlings, which appear to be the balance-breaking part of broodloards, and archons are supposed to have a pretty strong splash attack. That would still leave lings/hydras of course, but maybe colossus/zlots could help with those, while you use stalkers to blink and kill broodlords? Complete theorycrafting as I haven't played many PvZ games and am unable to try it now, but maybe even discussions explaining why this isn't a viable solution could result in some good arguments for buffing up the archon.
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On March 06 2010 04:00 Mirhi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2010 03:56 Kasperknop wrote:
The Brood Lord might be VERY GOOD, but let's not forget the fact that this unit is without comparison the hardest unit to get to in the game. Are you saying that because of this, they should be overpowered?
No I never said that? And ofc they shouldnt be :p But I do think that the equation t1<t2 should be somehow fulfilled, and given the fact that they are almost in a tier of their own I think you should be able to feel it somehow
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On March 05 2010 18:28 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2010 18:03 Medzo wrote:
Broodlords cost a lot of gas. Its basically zerg's ultimate unit. Also broodlords are mega slow like the other awesome air units. They are definately good but I really dont think they are OP. Pheonix is a pretty good AA unit if you get a good amount of them. Corruptors are better in a fight but I would rather have the gravity beam over the puke. You can use your phoenix to kill OLs or just gravity beam up ground units for control or harass.
The thing about corrupters is no zerg wants to waste gas on them, they want them for broodlords or to defend broodlords. So if you spent all your gas on phoenix and a zerg went for a mix you should have the larger AA force, and you can wreck some gravity havoc with a lot of phoenix. I dont disagree with the fact that phoenix are a good AA unit but broodlords are never rushed too. The Zerg should still have hydra lying about and if I'm powering everything into Phoenix then I'm not going to have colossus (or storm) and my phoenix force is going to be raped by Hydralisks before they even get to broodlords. Furthermore, if they went spire then they are going to counter phoenix with corruptor - because corruptors are REALLY good AA. Any spare ones left over after Phoenix harass at the start, or a phoenix transition, are just going to be turned into broodlords. You solution is good in theory, but it doesn't work in practice imo. Not against clever zergs at least. I agree that Broodlords are like the ultimate unit for Zergs, but why can Zergs kill off my carriers but I can't kill off their broodlords D:
I feel like what you said was good in theory but not practice, lol. Look a zerg cant just mass corrupter and win. Corrupter doesn't do anything but fight air units so basically they are there ONLY to protect the broodlords or fight phoenix. You talk about powering into phoenix wont let you get a good unit mix. Well its the same with zerg. If he gets 14 mutalisks then he just spent 1400 gas. If he gets 10 corruptors that is 1000 gas and then another 1500 to turn them into broodlords, or 750 for 5 broodlords and then he will have 5 corruptors left. Gas for gas you should win the air battle.
Now im not saying that a zerg cant trick you and tech swap around your army. Its very doable but that is part of the game.
EDIT: Will also note that hydralisks are 50 gas each and seem to be good in large numbers mostly. You can actually do a number to hydras in a fight with gravity unless its a large mass of hydras in which case you failed to scout.
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On March 06 2010 04:29 Kasperknop wrote:No I never said that? And ofc they shouldnt be :p But I do think that the equation t1<t2 should be somehow fulfilled, and given the fact that they are almost in a tier of their own I think you should be able to feel it somehow
I do agree with that idea, my question in response is, how do you balance that food / resource wise if nothing Protoss has can compare?
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On March 05 2010 20:29 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2010 20:25 Klive5ive wrote:On March 05 2010 20:14 FortuneSyn wrote:
Broodlords are one of my favorite units, so great!!! They break terrans with many tanks, and can really put the hurt on in isolated scenarios vs P (like Lost Temple close spots). Remember they are expensive (300/250) and tech heavy as fuck. Remember that 4 broodlords are more expensive than 4 colossus :O I think this is the point here, they are a very expensive unit . I think we need A LOT more games played before we can look at late game balance. It's less expensive than a Carrier, or a mothership. I don't see the point in including the price tag in this argument  Again, I urge you to watch the rep.
except you can only get 1 mother ship and carriers attack air too also the price diff between carrier is carrier cost only 50 mins more, but gas is the same cost. minerals are easy to get in the game gas is hard. i talk about cost of a unit i talk about how gas heavy it is if we are talking late game.
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Broodlords are pretty strong and hard to counter as Toss, they rape buildings as well. PvZ it is pretty wise to make your best attempt kill the zerg before he gets too much tech or an expo if you don't it is pretty much over.
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Why are people saying "it's ok, they are high-tech... just don't let them get there"!
If anything that is just saying they are overpowered. There should be no unit that is game breaking once you get the tech.
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On March 06 2010 05:06 Mirhi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2010 04:29 Kasperknop wrote:No I never said that? And ofc they shouldnt be :p But I do think that the equation t1<t2 should be somehow fulfilled, and given the fact that they are almost in a tier of their own I think you should be able to feel it somehow I do agree with that idea, my question in response is, how do you balance that food / resource wise if nothing Protoss has can compare?
That is a very good question indeed I don't think I'll be able to answer that... I really havn't had that many games that lasted long enough to be familiar enough with the Brood Lord or late game strategies and counters in general XD As far as my experince go I havn't found them broken in any way though, and I am sure that there are some viable counters if you just look close enough- expecially proactive-ones
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I don't have a beta but from what it sounds like, Broodlords don't sound the overpowered because of how hard it is to get them. They are high tech and when mixed in with a good army they should be hard to get rid of. Though being able to make a hydra/broodlord/corrupter deathball isn't a zerg thing at all, especially not against toss.
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Brood Lords leave the zerg insanely vulnerable until the moment they come out. Zerg has to sink countless resources into Hive, Greater Spire, and Corruptors that do nothing to help with map control or base defense. If he's doing all that and still can hold enough bases to be able to afford the Brood Lords, he's probably ahead.
Each Broodlord is a Carrier-class capital ship that has no air to air attack and little more than half the health of a Battlecruiser or Carrier. As expensive and fragile as they are, it should be cost effective to suicide your units to bring them down. Blink some stalkers right underneath them, drop some storms on them, or just suicide Phoenixes and Void Rays at em.
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On March 06 2010 05:30 oxxo wrote:
Why are people saying "it's ok, they are high-tech... just don't let them get there"!
If anything that is just saying they are overpowered. There should be no unit that is game breaking once you get the tech.
uhh, defilers?
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The broodlord is fine.. its just toss complaining that they can't just spam colossi
edit: Protoss just need to man up, they should be able to scout the hive or the greater spire and start phoenixes. Hive = get phoenixes! They rape all Zerg hive units.
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On March 06 2010 05:49 Piousflea wrote:
As expensive and fragile as they are, it should be cost effective to suicide your units to bring them down. Blink some stalkers right underneath them, drop some storms on them, or just suicide Phoenixes and Void Rays at em.
The problem is, you can't even do this. With 250 HP and 2 armor, even 8-10 stalkers can't kill one brood lord before at least half of the stalkers are dead from hydra fire and the broodlords themselves. Phoenix does even less.
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United States1866 Posts
I haven't actually done much expirementing with Broodlords ZvP - they really seem just too much tech and money to be viable in that agressive matchup - but I really have to say Plexa that if they are imbalanced in that matchup then whatever is done has to be extremely careful not to mess up ZvT, because Broodlords are absolutely vital in that matchup in many many late game situations.
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On March 05 2010 18:15 Luddite wrote:
heh, i'll bet you wish you still had scouts, huh?
Heh
Bring back scouts! jk... so sucky after scout's attack nerf.
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On March 06 2010 06:16 ShaperofDreams wrote:The broodlord is fine.. its just toss complaining that they can't just spam colossi edit: Protoss just need to man up, they should be able to scout the hive or the greater spire and start phoenixes. Hive = get phoenixes! They rape all Zerg hive units.
This post is ridiculous and has been answered before.
Protoss can not keep up with the production rate, and a tech switch by zerg means certain death, or even just a unit mix by zerg means protoss can do nothing agaisnt it.
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Sounds like people just aren't used to zerg having a proper capital ship...
Then again, that was one of the distinctions of their race.
People whining about "unscouted broodlords"... what do you think happens in SC1 when you fail to scan carriers? The issue here isn't the raw power of the broodlords at all. The issue is the nature of their special ability. I can't claim to have experienced it, but it sounds straight-up unfun to play against - not necessary overpowered, but just ugly design- and fun-wise. Moreover, it's not an issue that hydra+broodlord is a good combination that's tough to counter - dragoon/carrier was much the same. However, I would imagine that one cannot simply tell a protoss "use a good unit mix yourself, obv", because the spawned broodlings would give the hydras a much larger chance to defeat what protoss brings to get them out of the way, by making micro significantly more difficult for one player than the other.
I think people are being very hasty here. Were people using corsairs like they are used now when they first started playing starcraft? They are the reason nobody builds guardians ZvP.
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Id really also like to say that void rays beat corruptors and psi storm works great on broodlords. Honestly im at a total loss ZvP because templar tech counters everything zerg besides ultralisk (which is hard countered by phoenix).
Is it just me or do hydralisks not move fast enough against psi storm unless they are on creep? Its so easy to cast now that its likely anywhere you move is getting stormed.
(Im getting frustrated)
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On March 06 2010 07:26 Retsukage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2010 06:16 ShaperofDreams wrote:The broodlord is fine.. its just toss complaining that they can't just spam colossi edit: Protoss just need to man up, they should be able to scout the hive or the greater spire and start phoenixes. Hive = get phoenixes! They rape all Zerg hive units. This post is ridiculous and has been answered before. Protoss can not keep up with the production rate, and a tech switch by zerg means certain death, or even just a unit mix by zerg means protoss can do nothing agaisnt it.
Again hive tech is very scout-able and phoenixes are good against every hive unit Zerg makes, when you see zerg start getting hive, start making phoenixes.
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EPT
