EPT[D] Broodlords too good vs P? - Page 6
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
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MeruFM
United States167 Posts
This sort of goes for terran as well if it weren't for the Viking which is the only real counter to broodlords as far as I can see. When they shoot out the broodlings, half my army is stopped in its tracks even when I try to stim my marines to try to catch up to the broodlords. Not only that, the heavy armor means thor and marines do pretty minimal damage. So yeah, only counter I see is Viking; not that I'm complaining, I think Viking is quite an awesome unit with fuck yeah 9 range. I can keep them behind my main force and they can still attack any air. But i can see how as Protoss it would be a complete bitch especially with failnix and crappy prism range. Note that they're indeed rare (somewhere between battlecruiser rare and carrier rare) so I only fought a couple fights (one with only ground, another with vikings). Also watched a couple replays of just broodlords raping. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 06 2010 11:41 mondry wrote: After watching the replay a few additional things to say. 1. Just before you attack and kill his expansion and a bunch of overlords to seal the game you have 3k crystals and 1k gas banked up at the 16:00 minute mark. This just goes to show how expensive and how much time it actually takes to get broodlords up. You were able to survive Muta harassment quite easily despite not spending. Your opponent would have actually stood a far greater chance if he just kept massing mutas and upgraded attack (can't do air upgrades when you need to morph the greater spire for broodlords) but due to how expensive the tech / corruptors / morphing is his muta count is to low to break cannons. First broodlord isn't completed until 16:37 in which it's to late and the expansion is lost to 3 archons, 3 zealots, and 6 sentries, not exactly a massive army. Meaning the zerg is quite vulnerable while going for broodlords. You didn't even lose a single unit before the expansion died, nor did you have any more units coming to reinforce the attack. 2. when you kill his expansion his broodlord production pretty much dissipated. 3. The broodlords are so damn slow that it's not possible to just fly over to your 9 O`clock base to stop you from massing air. 4. When not able to hide over cliffs or other terrain the broodlords fall quite easily. All in all I have a hard time saying something is over powered when you were able to win so easily with 3k crystals and 1k gas banked up at the 16:00 mark. Had you spent effectively and defended your pylons better you probably could have won before broodlords were even a choice for the zerg. I don't disagree with anything you said here, I didn't play that game particularly well. But consider the point at which broodlords actually came out and what the game looked like at that point - can you really deny the power they have? Indeed Pachi, a heavy broodlord user, has said that the only games he ever loses once he gets to broodlord are the ones where the protoss just run around and counter everywhere (turning the game into an elim race). | ||
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Fzero
United States1503 Posts
Maybe a bonus against biological units or something even more creative like any target a void ray is targetting receives X bonus damage from phoenix lasers. Would help create a little chess match in the sky between keeping the void rays alive vs keeping your immortals/colossi alive on the ground. Blizzard can do a lot with balance simply because instead of unit "size" they've gone to a bunch of categories of unit types. | ||
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Mente
United States288 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15720 Posts
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nMn
United States144 Posts
They take 60 seconds to build compared to 45 for phoenix, they do 6 damage per channeling second to both broodlords and corruptors, they have 7 range (twice the phoenix), move at the same speed as broodlords as well as the ability to attack while moving. They're not even massive units so corruptors don't get their bonus damage against them. If Z is making broodlords, hes not investing in a ground force either so if your ground ball couldn't take ground ball than he would of been ahead already with or without the broodlord. I noticed whenever i'm teching towards broodlords, which is a very costly investment, its generally because I need to catchup and it actually opens up a small timing window in which im saving resources in order to churn them out. | ||
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mondry
United States40 Posts
On March 06 2010 20:50 Plexa wrote: I don't disagree with anything you said here, I didn't play that game particularly well. But consider the point at which broodlords actually came out and what the game looked like at that point - can you really deny the power they have? Indeed Pachi, a heavy broodlord user, has said that the only games he ever loses once he gets to broodlord are the ones where the protoss just run around and counter everywhere (turning the game into an elim race). I have considered the point at which broodlords actually came out and no you can't deny the power they have. At the same time you can't deny that even though he made broodlords you won the game incredibly easy because despite what everyone is claiming, there is a downside for the zerg to make brood lords that can be exploited. A good timing attack with the counter to a low number of mutas (archon / sentry) just before greater spire and morph broodlord finish is an easy win. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10764 Posts
Immortals rape him. zerg goes air and didn't get crushed/but behind like mad: protoss gets raped. thats at least how i feel after ~40-50 games... i really think a big part of the problem is the Colossus.. Once protoss gets 3-4 in his normal ground army.... he will just waste the zerg ground army... Btw: I hate it when protoss complains about mutas... while they are going robo tech and have about 2 units that actually fire on mutas and then claim imbalance. FUCK your robotech... You got this nice shiny templar tech, use it. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 07 2010 11:40 mondry wrote: I have considered the point at which broodlords actually came out and no you can't deny the power they have. At the same time you can't deny that even though he made broodlords you won the game incredibly easy because despite what everyone is claiming, there is a downside for the zerg to make brood lords that can be exploited. A good timing attack with the counter to a low number of mutas (archon / sentry) just before greater spire and morph broodlord finish is an easy win. My point is that regardless of how the game panned out, if there exists a unit with as much power as the broodlord then surely it must be broken? If the only legitimate answer to broodlord on the protoss side is to not let zerg get them, then surely that unit must be over powered? | ||
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Stormscion
Serbia27 Posts
Out of 6 matches i played vs broodlords i lost 5 i think. Last game we were on stepes of war and we were on 2 bases each and i managed to denie zerg third expo for quite a long time ... i even took third before him. Thing is phoenix or void ray cant counter them because corputers and hydras own them very hard i did learn that hard way in previous matches ... so in last game i did go with mass stalker with blink ... blink in and snipe ... i added some storms and archons to keep zerlings and hydras off ... he had like 5 or 6 of them all the time even when i blink and snipe them one by one , they seam quite more durable and more effective them colosus to be honest. Again i think stalker damage should be tweaked a bit to be more like dragoon damage ... it should deal more damage per shot but shoot less offten... so we can dance around or something. Still broodlords rape them and hydras rape air ... i really dont see much POTENTIAL HERE  | ||
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Stormscion
Serbia27 Posts
Replay : http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=08717767686363327595 First i am only in gold league and i am quite noob ... i know i made many mistakes but zerg was not great player as well , i am just posting here to see how other people deal with it ... this is when i was going mass stalker this guy made zerlings instead of hydras ... but every time i gone mass air to counter they would go hydra to counter my air generally ... and i know that zealot attack on natural expo was fail but they were not of much use at base What is most effective way to counter zerg broodlord end game army ? | ||
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
A way to fix this is to have a cooldown on each broodlord and ability to store broodlings (maximum 10 or something). With each cooldown amount of broodling stored goes up. It seems fair and 10 broodlings means 10 attacks and it will still be very effective and strong for a tier 3 unit. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On March 06 2010 02:28 zeppelin wrote: The whole air-ground balance compared to bw is skewed right now, a2g is so much stronger and g2a (and even a2a) is much weaker. Based on the size of the holes this seems to leave I feel like it's something that will addressed in an expansion. Yeah, I've been wondering about this. Air unit balance seems a lot closer to what it's like in WC3 than it is to BW. In BW, the closest thing to an air force that can't be dealt with is Carriers in TvP (mostly because koreans established the metagame and they don't like ghosts, IMHO). In WC3, air units are much mightier. Gryphons in OvH, Gargoyles in NvU, and Wyverns in literally every matchup are cases in which there just isn't an obvious counter to an enemy massing air units. In SC2, air units are once again quite strong: Warp Rays can demolish an opponent who is unable to counter them immediately, Banshees are so strong they give Stalkers a run for their money, and Broodlords can be a pain in the neck to deal with. While the Carrier was just as hard to counter in TvP in BW, that unit is at the very end of the Protoss tech tree- unlike, say, the Banshee. Dealing with mass mutas is also a lot harder. With Irradiate and Corsairs gone, there's just no way to stomp down on them- you pretty much need a big army with lots of anti air and shoot them out of the sky. I can't say I like this state of affairs. Are air units weak in BW? I say, no. When looking at airborne fighter units (not thinking of science vessels or arbiters here), they usually have a place in an army; wraiths have a use in all matchups (who needs 6 turrets to intimidate an enemy shuttle when a wraith will bring it down much more effectively); mutas are a core part of the zerg race; corsairs had their niche in PvZ; and scouts... okay, no, scouts sucked. All in all, I like this balance; air units are weak / can be countered quite effectively with the correct units (TvP Carriers aside), but they're very mobile. In SC2, it just doesn't seem like air units pay for their mobility in power to anywhere near the extent they do in BW. | ||
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mondry
United States40 Posts
On March 07 2010 12:12 Plexa wrote: My point is that regardless of how the game panned out, if there exists a unit with as much power as the broodlord then surely it must be broken? If the only legitimate answer to broodlord on the protoss side is to not let zerg get them, then surely that unit must be over powered? Perhaps it's not a problem with broodlords then, but your race? I don't see many terran or zerg players complaining about broodlords. How can a unit that can't attack air be over powered and unstoppable to your whole race btw? You build one phoenix or one void ray and it'll kill 1000s of broodlords. But that's just it isn't it, it's not just the broodlord protoss has problems with. Every post I've read talks about broodlords with corruptors and hydras. That trio of units in mass is what makes them unbeatable, not the broodlord specifically which is EASILY countered by any air unit that shoots air. It is in my opinion that a protoss played correctly can keep zerg from making that ultimate trio relatively easily so in that sense my point is exactly that, don't let him make an army your race can't beat. It's no different then saying "don't let a terran mass battle cruisers with ghosts and vikings." | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 07 2010 18:47 mondry wrote: No it's quite different. Every trio should have a set of units the other side can use to fight with if they have the appropriate number of units.Perhaps it's not a problem with broodlords then, but your race? I don't see many terran or zerg players complaining about broodlords. How can a unit that can't attack air be over powered and unstoppable to your whole race btw? You build one phoenix or one void ray and it'll kill 1000s of broodlords. But that's just it isn't it, it's not just the broodlord protoss has problems with. Every post I've read talks about broodlords with corruptors and hydras. That trio of units in mass is what makes them unbeatable, not the broodlord specifically which is EASILY countered by any air unit that shoots air. It is in my opinion that a protoss played correctly can keep zerg from making that ultimate trio relatively easily so in that sense my point is exactly that, don't let him make an army your race can't beat. It's no different then saying "don't let a terran mass battle cruisers with ghosts and vikings." e.g. Carriers in SC1 - if i get 12 vs a terran who hasn't scouted them its instant gg. However, it's not like he doesn't have a response to that. He can build goliaths and goliath vs carrier is somewhat of an even fight (given the right map and appropriate micro). If stalkers didn't suck balls so much then there would be an easy answer to broodlord - make lots of stalkers! But they're really really shit. Buffing stalkers and pushing warp gates back (as idra suggested in another thread) would be ideal imo. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 07 2010 12:12 Plexa wrote: My point is that regardless of how the game panned out, if there exists a unit with as much power as the broodlord then surely it must be broken? If the only legitimate answer to broodlord on the protoss side is to not let zerg get them, then surely that unit must be over powered? This makes me think you haven't played as Zerg against at least mid-level platinum players. You'd feel the same way about their colossus. Point is, once you figure out the right combination of units to counter, they're not even a problem anymore, and the same goes for broodlords. Getting to that mixture may be, but that's why this game's macro is unique. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 07 2010 19:00 danl9rm wrote: Then give me a combination that fares well against Broodlords and ill give it a go.This makes me think you haven't played as Zerg against at least mid-level platinum players. You'd feel the same way about their colossus. Point is, once you figure out the right combination of units to counter, they're not even a problem anymore, and the same goes for broodlords. Getting to that mixture may be, but that's why this game's macro is unique. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
5 colossi under a mothership should make quick work of the hydras, and then you can add in a sentry for the shield, and a few phoenixes and stuff to support them. 5 colossi and a mothership, against 6 broodlords, should come about even on cost. Then support units matching the cost of the hydras, and it should be all good. | ||
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