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My point is that regardless of how the game panned out, if there exists a unit with as much power as the broodlord then surely it must be broken? If the only legitimate answer to broodlord on the protoss side is to not let zerg get them, then surely that unit must be over powered?
Wow, that sounds a lot like what everyone has always said about carriers or battlecruisers. Is your problem just that zerg finally has an end game capital ship that is very hard to counter if you let them spend a gazillion minerals on them?
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Mothership>broodlord. Amirite?
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On March 08 2010 04:29 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +
My point is that regardless of how the game panned out, if there exists a unit with as much power as the broodlord then surely it must be broken? If the only legitimate answer to broodlord on the protoss side is to not let zerg get them, then surely that unit must be over powered?
Wow, that sounds a lot like what everyone has always said about carriers or battlecruisers. Is your problem just that zerg finally has an end game capital ship that is very hard to counter if you let them spend a gazillion minerals on them?
Carriers and battlecruisers can be killed by ground Anti-air by running underneath them since they're slow.
Broodlords are also slow but they stop ground anti-air instantly with massive amounts of broodlings and they can stay 9 range away. Broodlings tank almost as much as zerglings. It's like if carrier interceptors were actually little stalkers with half the hp and could block enemy movement. Even worse, broodlings are just spontaneously generated, they don't cost money to make. Maybe if they were made to cost money/build time or took time to regenerate, it would be okay.
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On March 08 2010 05:05 Mente wrote:
Mothership>broodlord. Amirite?
yeah, but you can't have 12 motherships
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On March 08 2010 05:15 MeruFM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2010 04:29 Antpile wrote:
My point is that regardless of how the game panned out, if there exists a unit with as much power as the broodlord then surely it must be broken? If the only legitimate answer to broodlord on the protoss side is to not let zerg get them, then surely that unit must be over powered?
Wow, that sounds a lot like what everyone has always said about carriers or battlecruisers. Is your problem just that zerg finally has an end game capital ship that is very hard to counter if you let them spend a gazillion minerals on them? Carriers and battlecruisers can be killed by ground Anti-air by running underneath them since they're slow. Broodlords are also slow but they stop ground anti-air instantly with massive amounts of broodlings and they can stay 9 range away. Broodlings tank almost as much as zerglings. It's like if carrier interceptors were actually little stalkers with half the hp and could block enemy movement. Even worse, broodlings are just spontaneously generated, they don't cost money to make. Maybe if they were made to cost money/build time or took time to regenerate, it would be okay.
this, and broodlords are also cheaper than capitol ships, build in half the time and don't require several starport/gates to build in mass
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On March 08 2010 05:15 MeruFM wrote:
Carriers and battlecruisers can be killed by ground Anti-air by running underneath them since they're slow.
Broodlords are also slow but they stop ground anti-air instantly with massive amounts of broodlings and they can stay 9 range away. Broodlings tank almost as much as zerglings. It's like if carrier interceptors were actually little stalkers with half the hp and could block enemy movement. Even worse, broodlings are just spontaneously generated, they don't cost money to make. Maybe if they were made to cost money/build time or took time to regenerate, it would be okay.
Battlecruisers and carriers also don't have the weakness of being unable to hit air. So a unit that is tier 3.5, can only attack ground, and costs a freeking fortune is very difficult to counter with ground forces. What about that doesn't make sense?
Oh, is it because he ALSO has a buncha corruptors. So now he's only spent like 2000+ gas on this airforce. Marines should definitely be able to stimpack and own them, yer right.
what would happen if you had 2000 gas worth of voidrays in the sky? They would probably not only win that fight, but then be able to go on and vaporize an expansion. If you scout a spire, lay off the colossus. Your ground army works just fine without them, especially if he's investing heavily in air.
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I think the biggest problem with many of these issues is that currently the air supperiority units (Phoenix / Corruptor / Viking) plain suck. Especially the first 2.
I personally didn't find Vikings too bad as they do quite a lot of damage. Corruptors are pretty bad except vs BCs and carriers, but zerg have mutas to fall back on. IMO Corruptors need some better mobility.
Protoss feel in a bit of a hole at the moment. Phoenixes are really weak vs most units, and their light bonus doesn't prevent them from being totally annihilated by mutas or vikings. They have their speed going and their graviton beam. But that makes them nothing more than glorified overlord hunters.
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On March 08 2010 04:29 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +
My point is that regardless of how the game panned out, if there exists a unit with as much power as the broodlord then surely it must be broken? If the only legitimate answer to broodlord on the protoss side is to not let zerg get them, then surely that unit must be over powered?
Wow, that sounds a lot like what everyone has always said about carriers or battlecruisers. Is your problem just that zerg finally has an end game capital ship that is very hard to counter if you let them spend a gazillion minerals on them?
no one has ever said 'dont let protoss get carriers or terran get bcs or you will lose' they're not that hard to counter at all by either race. Really only terran had a problem with carriers on certain maps that's about it.
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After reading *most* of the posts, its seems to be a battle of Protoss vs Zerg players. Terran throw in their 2 cents "OH no big deal Vikings rape everything." But its just a battle of Zerg players wanting to keep their imbalanced unit in the game. Protoss has already lost many of their "imbalances," and now Zerg is scared to lose theirs.
Simple solution is to just do some slow patching such as energy cost for the broodlings and see where it goes from there.
As mentioned somewhere above you also don't want to mess up the TvZ match up by overly nerffing the Brood Lord.
Another solution perhaps could be bringing the Phoenix's over charge ability back into the game, but make it a tier 3 upgrade (to match the tier 3 Brood Lord, but now I'm just throwing out random ideas)
Does anyone agree or disagree with what I said? (And for the most part look at what race the person plays when they either agree or disagree with me.)
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On March 08 2010 10:07 NET wrote:
After reading *most* of the posts, its seems to be a battle of Protoss vs Zerg players. Terran throw in their 2 cents "OH no big deal Vikings rape everything." But its just a battle of Zerg players wanting to keep their imbalanced unit in the game. Protoss has already lost many of their "imbalances," and now Zerg is scared to lose theirs.
Simple solution is to just do some slow patching such as energy cost for the broodlings and see where it goes from there.
As mentioned somewhere above you also don't want to mess up the TvZ match up by overly nerffing the Brood Lord.
Another solution perhaps could be bringing the Phoenix's over charge ability back into the game, but make it a tier 3 upgrade (to match the tier 3 Brood Lord, but now I'm just throwing out random ideas)
Does anyone agree or disagree with what I said? (And for the most part look at what race the person plays when they either agree or disagree with me.)
You're part of the system of behavior you just outlined. An obvious one, too. >_>
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So in ZvP, Zerg wins... *If* the game goes on long enough.
The much bigger problem is that the game doesn't go on long enough.
And when Blizzard finally balances the game to where it can go on long enough, God only knows what the Tier 3 landscape will be like.
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On March 08 2010 12:04 ethos wrote:
So in ZvP, Zerg wins... *If* the game goes on long enough.
The much bigger problem is that the game doesn't go on long enough.
And when Blizzard finally balances the game to where it can go on long enough, God only knows what the Tier 3 landscape will be like.
If pvz games were never going to late game the thread wouldnt exist o.o and if it wasnt common the thread wouldnt be 7 pages xD
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On March 08 2010 12:58 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2010 12:04 ethos wrote:
So in ZvP, Zerg wins... *If* the game goes on long enough.
The much bigger problem is that the game doesn't go on long enough.
And when Blizzard finally balances the game to where it can go on long enough, God only knows what the Tier 3 landscape will be like. If pvz games were never going to late game the thread wouldnt exist o.o and if it wasnt common the thread wouldnt be 7 pages xD
I don't know... I see a thread beginning with people stating how little experience they've had with Broodlords, how the game never advances to that stage, and ending with what seems like theory-crafting in biased defense of racial preferences.
The only times I remember seeing Broodlords is from streams or replays from players who were experimenting (Artosis vs Moon, KHB vs Day9).
A lot more games need to be played.
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As P vs a lategame hydra/broodlord army you either have to run into your short range phoenixes above their hydralisks (phoenixes are quite fragile to hydras) or attempt to get stalkers in range where you can't walk in stalkers because of the broodlings, meaning you have to blink into the middle of a bunch of light armor hydralisks which shred your stalkers. The only thing I've had any success with is storming the hydralisks while pulling back until their army is soft enough to engage.
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Storm works pretty good since they are so slow. Also, for that price they better not suck, its basically a zerg carrier.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
If you want to think of it this way, brood lords are like the 3/3 mech army in TvZ of SC2. Fucking slow and really hard to stop.
How to beat 3/3 mech army TvZ in SC2? Counter where he's not, or an even better counter:
Don't let the game get to that point in the first place. You could also try the wearing down strategy.
Or you can think of it as a slower Archon/Reaver/Temp army :/. Anyway, the point is to not let the game get to that point in the first place.
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it's really hard to say in a vacuum whether any unit is overpowered, especially a late game unit. i don't think there's any way to come down on one side or the other of this debate.
it might turn out that once the dust settles, arguing about broodlords is a lot like arguing about whether plague was too strong in zvz or whether recalled reavers was totally unfair
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i think the solution was similar back to when we had big air. When the zerg went guardians, you would make corsairs. but when the zerg made devourers you made carriers or you just went with a heavy tech push with a lot of storm. Similarly, i think that if they make no corruptors, then pheonix/void ray is the answer BUT if there are corruptors and brood lords i guess storm is your only answer. The problem i see right now is that storm is no where near as strong but i guess its something that we have to work around. maybe stalker/templar/sentry with guardian shield.and a few zealots to rid the broodlings while your sentrys and stalkers are attacking the brood lords
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On March 08 2010 10:16 Avidkeystamper wrote:
You're part of the system of behavior you just outlined. An obvious one, too. >_>
Lol Exactly my point... I'm a Protoss Elitist. Most of the arguments are gonna be biased. WE are just going to have to rely on Blizzard's unbiased stats and information to play itself out and hopefully get a fair and balanced outcome.
But for the record what I suggested wasn't too far-fetched. Unlimited broodlings is pretty broke.
haha and as for bringing back the overload ability... A Protoss can dream can't he? :D
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Seriously. Why is ANYONE using the argument 'don't let them get there'.
That says it all. They are OP if that is the case.
Carriers/BC/Mech3-3 are nothing like 'don't let them get there'.
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EPT
