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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
On March 08 2010 10:16 Avidkeystamper wrote: You're part of the system of behavior you just outlined. An obvious one, too. >_> lol its not worth reading once everyone realizes he argues with himself. "we cant listen to people who think broodlords aren't op, but we should listen to the protoss who says they are, and due to this reasoning, they are OBVIOUSLY op!" | ||
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drowned
79 Posts
(instead of guardian from mutalisk in sc:bw) so you have sufficient air->air support as well, if you leave 2-4 unmorphed that helped me win a game where i actually survived the early- & mid-game vT xD | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
you can have 12 carriers, now tell me what's more powerful brood lord of carrier. don't tell me it costs less it's just 50 less mins if you can afford the gas you will def have the mins for it as gas is hard as hell to get in this game | ||
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genwar
Canada537 Posts
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meffo
Sweden109 Posts
and of course it's going to take a while to balance the late game. blizzard really needs to get the ai for the broodlings right, though. could be a difficult task. just two brood lords should by all means be able to pack a big punch. they are late game and very expensive. | ||
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On March 09 2010 07:48 meffo wrote: carriers should counter brood lords no problem, they are the same tier, no? remember you need hive and a greater spire. building a starport and a fleet beacon with chrono boost should be faster. and of course it's going to take a while to balance the late game. blizzard really needs to get the ai for the broodlings right, though. could be a difficult task. just two brood lords should by all means be able to pack a big punch. they are late game and very expensive. Carrier do not counter hydra/broodlord army at all. Its slower to get in any respectable numbers and doesn't deal well with other zerg army compositions. The biggest problem with broodlord is that it provides its own meatshield and with hydra backup it can chew up ground forces and air AA. Combined with corrupter it makes it even more difficult to engage the zerg and hope to come out on top. Not to mention broodlord tech switch late game is not easily punishable either because roach/hydra do a well enough job defending mid-game pressure (unless you decide for a midgame all in). Fix either has to be a broodling nerf (cost mana, cooldown per spawn, spawn only on kill, has to be premade like interceptors, i dont know) or reduce survivability of the broodlord | ||
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
On March 08 2010 15:03 Mystlord wrote: If you want to think of it this way, brood lords are like the 3/3 mech army in TvZ of SC2. Fucking slow and really hard to stop. How to beat 3/3 mech army TvZ in SC2? Counter where he's not, or an even better counter: Don't let the game get to that point in the first place. You could also try the wearing down strategy. Or you can think of it as a slower Archon/Reaver/Temp army :/. Anyway, the point is to not let the game get to that point in the first place. I think part of the point is that "wear down" strategy of which you speak doesn't really work against brood lords the way it works against a 3/3 mech army. Every time you send waves of hydraling at the ball, it will melt but not before eating up some non-infinite mines, and doing damage to tanks that is non-free to repair. The only problem I see with the BL is, as has been said, the infinite-ness of the broodlings. Their numbers never diminish and there is no way whatsoever, without blink, to advance from the ground on the zerg's position. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
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meffo
Sweden109 Posts
On March 09 2010 08:05 wassbix wrote: Carrier do not counter hydra/broodlord army at all. Its slower to get in any respectable numbers and doesn't deal well with other zerg army compositions. The biggest problem with broodlord is that it provides its own meatshield and with hydra backup it can chew up ground forces and air AA. Combined with corrupter it makes it even more difficult to engage the zerg and hope to come out on top. Not to mention broodlord tech switch late game is not easily punishable either because roach/hydra do a well enough job defending mid-game pressure (unless you decide for a midgame all in). Fix either has to be a broodling nerf (cost mana, cooldown per spawn, spawn only on kill, has to be premade like interceptors, i dont know) or reduce survivability of the broodlord oh, i didn't say anything about countering hydras, but if you've never built a templar (either kind), i'll just go ahead and break it down for you. what you're saying seems like carriers can't kill hydras, brood lords, corruptors, banelings, roaches or even a drone? it's not like you should be going all in carriers (even though that might work), you obviously need to compose your army just as carefully (or more so if you want to win) as your opponent. getting carriers is not slower than getting brood lords, it's faster (gateway, cybercore, double gas, stargate, fleet beacon, that's it) - and you won't need as many carriers. you can also get a mothership faster than the zerg can get brood lords. yes, the brood lord will rape most ground units - and rightfully so. they cannot attack air, are very slow and to get one, you will need spawning pool, double gas, lair, spire, infestation pit, hive, greater spire and a corruptor, which can't be done in one go, or you'll just die to the first zealot. hydras are quite strong, but will die to storms, dts or what ever. or hydra/broodlord is just imba and there are no counters for it? i hope you realize how slow and expensive these units are in sc2, so you're certainly not picking your fights very well. just like enough games has been played to balance the late game, that's just so silly. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On March 09 2010 09:20 meffo wrote: oh, i didn't say anything about countering hydras, but if you've never built a templar (either kind), i'll just go ahead and break it down for you. what you're saying seems like carriers can't kill hydras, brood lords, corruptors, banelings, roaches or even a drone? it's not like you should be going all in carriers (even though that might work), you obviously need to compose your army just as carefully (or more so if you want to win) as your opponent. getting carriers is not slower than getting brood lords, it's faster (gateway, cybercore, double gas, stargate, fleet beacon, that's it) - and you won't need as many carriers. you can also get a mothership faster than the zerg can get brood lords. yes, the brood lord will rape most ground units - and rightfully so. they cannot attack air, are very slow and to get one, you will need spawning pool, double gas, lair, spire, infestation pit, hive, greater spire and a corruptor, which can't be done in one go, or you'll just die to the first zealot. hydras are quite strong, but will die to storms, dts or what ever. or hydra/broodlord is just imba and there are no counters for it? i hope you realize how slow and expensive these units are in sc2, so you're certainly not picking your fights very well. just like enough games has been played to balance the late game, that's just so silly. this post is so biased >.> you claim that you shouldnt rush pure carriers and obviously need to balance your army composition then you argue that its much easier to get mass carriers than broodlords. you say you cant rush broodlords without dying, well its the exact same thing with carriers, if you skip templar and robotics facility tech, you are going to die to everything. plus you far overstate the opposing argument to the point its not even worth reading. From what i see its a crapton easier to transition into broodlords late-game than it is carriers, since hive and spire you already get in the normal course of things while toss usually ignore stargate completely for robo facility and/or templar archives. you sum up your argument with "you're certainly not picking your fights very well" this thread is full of people posting their experiences with how hard it is and how many different combinations they've tried against it and how they all fail, most of these players are far better than you and are obviously not a-moving random units and hoping it works. Just wondering, has ANYONE ever managed to beat a hydra-corrupter-broodlord army straight up? (if both players were at near-equal levels and even in the game) havent seen anyone post a ____ works yet, other than a few smartasses saying 1 AA unit owns all broodlords. | ||
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BOOWOO
United States83 Posts
If your opponent got to Brood Lords: 1. They had a significant advantage in the game, and were able to defend against inferior forces while they got the Brood Lord/Corrupter/Hydra mix out. In that case, you are just seeing their advantage in the form of a beastly unit comp, and they should be rolling over you, considering the time/tech/resource investment placed into it. The whole point of late-game units is to give you that extra oomph to make a final push. 2. They did not have a significant advantage, and you should have had an opportunity to attack. Probably even take out an expansion along with their entire ground force while the corrupters were being built and eventualy morphed. In that case, it was your fault in strategy/and scouting and deserve to be at a disadvantage. But I still think it can be countered. As for how to counter it, I feel like the Mothership would be essential. Vortex those badboys out of play, most likely along with their Corrputer support. This leaves no broodlings to prevent you from moving your army of Speedlots/Sentry/Collosi up to kill the Hydras, and move a control group of Phoenix in position to kill the air forces when they come out of the Vortex. Then send the ground forces to take out an expo. Considering how long Brood Lords take to get out, and how long they will be vunerable, especially on the ground, while getting to that tech, that unit comp should be reached in more than enough time. Or you should be able to attack and take out the Brood Lords ground support, and they should be much easier to take out on their own. If you can't get there, you were probably too far behind in the game anyway and your fate was all but sealed. Again, haven't tried this, but seems like it would work in theory. | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
On March 08 2010 09:04 Nyth wrote: I think the biggest problem with many of these issues is that currently the air supperiority units (Phoenix / Corruptor / Viking) plain suck. Especially the first 2. I personally didn't find Vikings too bad as they do quite a lot of damage. Corruptors are pretty bad except vs BCs and carriers, but zerg have mutas to fall back on. IMO Corruptors need some better mobility. Protoss feel in a bit of a hole at the moment. Phoenixes are really weak vs most units, and their light bonus doesn't prevent them from being totally annihilated by mutas or vikings. They have their speed going and their graviton beam. But that makes them nothing more than glorified overlord hunters. This is mostly true. Corruptors are pretty solid, but overall the air vs air units are pitiful. Playing Terran, I'd gladly give up the gimmicky air-ground nature of Vikings for a few more hp or something to give them a chance against a zerg who is truly focused on air units. Broodlords with any combination of Hydras, Mutas, or Corruptors are extremely hard to deal with, regardless of what race you're playing. | ||
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meffo
Sweden109 Posts
On March 09 2010 09:51 Chen wrote: this post is so biased >.> you claim that you shouldnt rush pure carriers and obviously need to balance your army composition then you argue that its much easier to get mass carriers than broodlords. you say you cant rush broodlords without dying, well its the exact same thing with carriers, if you skip templar and robotics facility tech, you are going to die to everything. plus you far overstate the opposing argument to the point its not even worth reading. From what i see its a crapton easier to transition into broodlords late-game than it is carriers, since hive and spire you already get in the normal course of things while toss usually ignore stargate completely for robo facility and/or templar archives. you sum up your argument with "you're certainly not picking your fights very well" this thread is full of people posting their experiences with how hard it is and how many different combinations they've tried against it and how they all fail, most of these players are far better than you and are obviously not a-moving random units and hoping it works. Just wondering, has ANYONE ever managed to beat a hydra-corrupter-broodlord army straight up? (if both players were at near-equal levels and even in the game) havent seen anyone post a ____ works yet, other than a few smartasses saying 1 AA unit owns all broodlords. if my post is not even worth reading, you are really contradicting yourself by giving me such generous response. i am inclined to thank you. so if you scout a spire, you'll just get that robotics facility, twillight concuil, templar archives and what not, just ignoring the fact that your opponent is going air? you overstate my argument just as much as i overstated the previous posters. it is a fact that getting a carrier is faster than getting a broodlord, so is getting a mothership. i never said anything about how many carriers you should get. since this suddenly turned into an army composition discussion instead of a broodlord discussion, all we can do is generalize. any kind of accurate analysis is almost impossible in light of how large and complex the game is. however, if the zerg is going broodlords only, it would pretty much the same as a toss going carriers only, at least regarding the result of skipping all the other tech and getting raped by units from a lower tier while you're teching up. also, if you go all in carriers and the zerg goes all in broodlords, you will stomp him like nothing. not that any pair of half decent players would play out a game like that, but anyways. no, i didn't sum up my argument in any way that i'm aware off. i'm sure that a lot of people posting here is a lot better at playing the game than i am. not that it has anything to do with my voicing my opinion, but anyways. i agree that it would be nice to see a protoss beating a large broodlord/corruptor/hydra army. it should not be a simple task, mind you. and just to state a simple fact. brood lords can't attack air, so any flying AA units will own all broodlords. i won't say anything about the possibility of other units defending the broodlord, because this thread is called "[D] Broodlords too good vs P?" - and i have already been stating the obvious in excess. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On March 09 2010 06:56 Virtue wrote: you can have 12 carriers, now tell me what's more powerful brood lord of carrier. don't tell me it costs less it's just 50 less mins if you can afford the gas you will def have the mins for it as gas is hard as hell to get in this game I don't think it's fair to compare carrier to brood lord. Carriers rely on swarms of interceptors to deal damage. This means carriers benefit tremendously from air attack/armor upgrades. Meanwhile, the brood lord is fantastic without any attack/armor upgrades. Carriers are more like ultras, in that they need upgrades to be truly effective. So you can't really 'fast tech' to carriers, since you have to wait for upgrades. But you can fast tech to brood lords. | ||
rotinegg
United States1719 Posts
On March 10 2010 01:35 BlasiuS wrote: I don't think it's fair to compare carrier to brood lord. Carriers rely on swarms of interceptors to deal damage. This means carriers benefit tremendously from air attack/armor upgrades. Meanwhile, the brood lord is fantastic without any attack/armor upgrades. Carriers are more like ultras, in that they need upgrades to be truly effective. So you can't really 'fast tech' to carriers, since you have to wait for upgrades. But you can fast tech to brood lords. fast teching to brood lords is a terrible idea, it simply takes too long and if your opponent scouts you you are susceptible to any kind of timing push. just like you dont fast tech to defilers+ultras in SC:BW. I play zerg in silver division, so obvs im not the best, but here's how i see it: broodlords combined with any kind of AA support is insanely good, but it is damn hard to get there without getting wiped out by a timing push from either T or P. Broodlords are insanely resource intensive, and I have not been able to successfully deploy them without getting to three bases. I tried to go broodlords on just my main and nat, but got to make 2 which were promptly raped by phoenixes and sentries despite corruptor support. Securing three bases on these maps is no joke as defending your bases is a lot harder in SC2. Once you are at the point where you are properly containing your opponent and defending all three of your bases, though, you are in a pretty good position already and broodlords are units that just reinforce your advantage. In short, the answer is: dont let z get to broodlords. If z were never able to make broodlords, you wouldnt have to call out imba imba every game. Keep scouting, if you see a spire going up get ready to put on some pressure on ground so he can never gather enough resources to successfully spawn more than 2 broodlords. edit: spelling | ||
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lixlix
United States482 Posts
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rotinegg
United States1719 Posts
On March 10 2010 01:55 lixlix wrote: its not as if corruptors aren't useful before they become broodlords. Corruptors are the ideal counter to Collosi, and if you have a few survive to the lategame, it makes for a great transition. I wont argue with the fact that P has almost no answer to Z's midgame air (muta+corruptor) cuz P AA simply sucks balls. However, thats a different topic. | ||
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meffo
Sweden109 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On March 09 2010 05:53 oxxo wrote: Seriously. Why is ANYONE using the argument 'don't let them get there'. That says it all. They are OP if that is the case. Carriers/BC/Mech3-3 are nothing like 'don't let them get there'. There is a timing push before Carriers in TvP. BCs take forever to make and there is that same timing window. See FBH vs. Flash on Neo Medusa (GREAT GAME!!!) for an example. Mech 3/3 should never be reached. When it is reached, with Vessel support, it's unbeatable. See any of Flash's games on Destination as an example. On March 09 2010 08:43 love1another wrote: I think part of the point is that "wear down" strategy of which you speak doesn't really work against brood lords the way it works against a 3/3 mech army. Every time you send waves of hydraling at the ball, it will melt but not before eating up some non-infinite mines, and doing damage to tanks that is non-free to repair. The only problem I see with the BL is, as has been said, the infinite-ness of the broodlings. Their numbers never diminish and there is no way whatsoever, without blink, to advance from the ground on the zerg's position. I'm not talking about wearing the Broodlords down. I'm talking about not letting Zerg get Broodlords in the first place. There's a difference. You can stop Broodlords provided you have enough time to transition and enough units, of which you need to know that he's going Broodlords in the first place. | ||
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rotinegg
United States1719 Posts
On March 09 2010 05:53 oxxo wrote: Seriously. Why is ANYONE using the argument 'don't let them get there'. That says it all. They are OP if that is the case. Carriers/BC/Mech3-3 are nothing like 'don't let them get there'. In SC:BW you dont wanna let Z get to 5 gas 5/3 ultra ling defilers, nor do u wanna let P get to 3/3/3 archon reaver arbiter blue ball of death in PvZ, nor T to a 3/3 mech ball with a vessel cloud. Broodlord is just a unit that has its weaknesses, but combined with other units that cover its weaknesses, it becomes unstoppable. You dont wanna let your opponent get to broodlord corruptor hydra infestor army on 3 bases, but that doesnt mean broodlords are automatically imba. Broodlords without support from other units is like ultras without ling nor swarm. | ||
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