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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
Here's the most recent rep of me getting owned by it: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31116 I went 5h muta cause I mistoke the timing of the forge due to bad scouting, thought it was starport-> +1 speedlot, but clearly wasn't. I've had another game going 3h muta getting completely dominated. So the guy might be right about the lurkers, since mutas doesn't seem to do the trick? | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
If the Zerg makes regular neo sauron hydralisk, then the speedlot rush will come before this and you stand a good chance to do a fair amount of damage. If the Zerg makes mutalisks (seems common) to counter the +1 speedzealot rush, then the zealots will still do damage, but the mutalisk will be unable to follow up with a counter-attack, because there will be 5-6 corsairs waiting for him. What should work well therefore is to make a hydralisk den and get earlier hydralisks. The +1 zealot rush should do very little in terms of damage, and you will be able to follow up with pressure on the Protoss' main because of a low HT count. You can move in with a group of hydralisks, snipe the gateway that was a part of their original FE, and just make him use what few storms he has, which you can dodge easily since you are controlling a small group of hydralisks. | ||
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sfdrew
United States201 Posts
I can't watch the replay right now (at work), but I have to check it out later. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
1) 3h spire into 9muta (4th hatch after spire), beat off the zeal rush. do this if his forge is spinning at 50% lair. 2) get 5th hatch, den evo and go hydra. When u want to move out with hydras, if he has like 6 sairs annoying you, make 2 spores on nat and park ovies on top, 1 spore on third base. It's so gg because he won't have storm yet and the only thing keeping your hydras in base are his annoying sairs. His sair count wont be high enough by the time your mutas fend off the lot push and counter his main/nat. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:45 FortuneSyn wrote: I've played a guy who did this 3 times in a row against me and I beat it 3 times like this. 1) 3h spire into 9muta (4th hatch after spire), beat off the zeal rush. do this if his forge is spinning at 50% lair. 2) get 5th hatch, den evo and go hydra. When u want to move out with hydras, if he has like 6 sairs annoying you, make 2 spores on nat and park ovies on top, 1 spore on third base. It's so gg because he won't have storm yet and the only thing keeping your hydras in base are his annoying sairs. His sair count wont be high enough by the time your mutas fend off the lot push and counter his main/nat. This might work, but this build is designed to beat neo sauron, not three hat mutalisk. I suspect if a Protoss player scouted your build and saw neo sauron, he wouldn't be doing this rush. However if you went three hat spire and then scourge -> fourth hat like usual, then the rush would still be effective. It sounds like the Protoss you played simply knew the build, but wasn't actually aware of how to adapt with it. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:51 Salv wrote: This might work, but this build is designed to beat neo sauron, not three hat mutalisk. I suspect if a Protoss player scouted your build and saw neo sauron, he wouldn't be doing this rush. However if you went three hat spire and then scourge -> fourth hat like usual, then the rush would still be effective. It sounds like the Protoss you played simply knew the build, but wasn't actually aware of how to adapt with it. I don't understand your post. First you said this P build is made to counter neosauron, then you say he wouldn't do this P build if he scouts Z doing neosauron? Plz define what neosauron is. For me it's 3h spire, directly into 5h scourge and then hydra. | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:51 Salv wrote:1 This might work, but this build is designed to beat neo sauron, not three hat mutalisk. I suspect if a Protoss player scouted your build and saw neo sauron, he wouldn't be doing this rush. However if you went three hat spire and then scourge -> fourth hat like usual, then the rush would still be effective. It sounds like the Protoss you played simply knew the build, but wasn't actually aware of how to adapt with it. He cant scout if u do the 3 hat muta or neo sauron before he have invested to much, so that he is forced to do the attack. He then already have speed and +1, so he have to use it. | ||
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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:45 FortuneSyn wrote: I've played a guy who did this 3 times in a row against me and I beat it 3 times like this. 1) 3h spire into 9muta (4th hatch after spire), beat off the zeal rush. do this if his forge is spinning at 50% lair. 2) get 5th hatch, den evo and go hydra. When u want to move out with hydras, if he has like 6 sairs annoying you, make 2 spores on nat and park ovies on top, 1 spore on third base. It's so gg because he won't have storm yet and the only thing keeping your hydras in base are his annoying sairs. His sair count wont be high enough by the time your mutas fend off the lot push and counter his main/nat. If you can find them, can you please post those replays? I did pretty much the same thing the first time I fought it, and got completely rolled. My hydras were just waay late so his sairs killed so many overlords the game was over just there. Actually, if anyone has replays of zergs beating this build (yourself or others, don't care), it'd be really apreciated! | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
Once you've stopped the +1 speedlots, immediately transition into hydras and probably place a few spores for safety reasons. If you can use speedlings to deny his third until you get lurkers you should be in great shape since 2 stargate sair is a pretty gas heavy build so he won't have the necessary items to stop lurkers from destroying him. Use your newly morphed lurkers to stop his third and then expand twice and tech to hive. If you succeed with this the game should be over. If you don't succeed at denying the third I think a lurker contain would still be a good bet since the gas issue is still an immediate problem for a protoss using this build. Assuming the protoss gets his third he'll have a chance to break the contain, but he'll be delayed and probably won't have reavers available. So you should have a much better than usual chance of maintaining a lurker contain and winning the game without any real difficulties. Anyway lurkers are gonna be a key unit in beating a toss who uses this build. You just have to make sure that you get enough hydralisk to defend against the corsairs and any further zealot aggression before you start to play with heavy lurker action. Basically the key to beating this build is that it's pretty linear and you should be able to anticipate the timings easily. If you fuck up, it'll probably be hard to recover, but if you don't fuck up, and you play a conservative game, you should be in good shape | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On February 11 2010 01:38 Salv wrote: Fortune, my bad, I misread your post, I thought you meant you were going for a regular three hatchery mutalisk build. If you did the spire as normal and then a fourth hat into mutas, I am surprised you won because if what you wrote is indeed the case, then this build would be awful against mutalisk, which is the direct counter to a speedlot rush. That being said, I think by the time you dealt with his zealot rush and began to make hydralisks, if the Protoss did not already have zealots, high templar and started to expand I would be very surprised. Well first he spends his gas on +1 atk, citadel, and leg speed. Zerg spends his gas on mutas = direct counter. Then P spends gas on 2x stargate and 6 sairs, temp archive, and like 2 DTS or whatever. Zerg spends gas on hydra den/+attack, and hydras. P will probably be researching storm/getting temps while zerg has a sizeable hydra group maintaining map control. Of course these things change depending on what P decides to do. My point is that the way the game plays out, if you transition to muta and then hydra with good timings you can maintain mapcontrol for a long time. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On February 11 2010 01:57 Failsafe wrote: Just use a good building wall and 3 sunkens at both your 3rd and your natural to stop the +1 zealots. Build a few speedlings for extra reinforcement and use drones as needed. With modern walling zerg play there's really no reason to struggle against a +1 charge. Once you've stopped the +1 speedlots, immediately transition into hydras and probably place a few spores for safety reasons. If you can use speedlings to deny his third until you get lurkers you should be in great shape since 2 stargate sair is a pretty gas heavy build so he won't have the necessary items to stop lurkers from destroying him. Use your newly morphed lurkers to stop his third and then expand twice and tech to hive. If you succeed with this the game should be over. If you don't succeed at denying the third I think a lurker contain would still be a good bet since the gas issue is still an immediate problem for a protoss using this build. Assuming the protoss gets his third he'll have a chance to break the contain, but he'll be delayed and probably won't have reavers available. So you should have a much better than usual chance of maintaining a lurker contain and winning the game without any real difficulties. Anyway lurkers are gonna be a key unit in beating a toss who uses this build. You just have to make sure that you get enough hydralisk to defend against the corsairs and any further zealot aggression before you start to play with heavy lurker action. Basically the key to beating this build is that it's pretty linear and you should be able to anticipate the timings easily. If you fuck up, it'll probably be hard to recover, but if you don't fuck up, and you play a conservative game, you should be in good shape The problem with using sunkens/lings to defend the +1 push is that you lose map control. A smart P will just back off and grab his third. If you do use sunkens/lings to defend the +1 push, then you must've put your third base on another natural, else you wont be able to take a 4th while he takes his third. On February 11 2010 01:16 Papvin wrote: If you can find them, can you please post those replays? I did pretty much the same thing the first time I fought it, and got completely rolled. My hydras were just waay late so his sairs killed so many overlords the game was over just there. Actually, if anyone has replays of zergs beating this build (yourself or others, don't care), it'd be really apreciated! I'll look for them when I get home. | ||
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Rayzorblade
United States1172 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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neVern
United States115 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:36 Papvin wrote: Hi, I have recently encountered a strategy that I have such a hard time beating. The toss gets +1 asap without stargate and gets a total of 2 gateways pumping untill its done. The he attacks with +1 speedlots, and gets 2 stargates pumping corsairs. If I go something like 3h muta, which has always been my response to +1 speedlot rush, I get completely pwned by the sairs. If I do anything else I die to the speedlots. A guy I played against suggested that I should go lurkers and spores against sairs, but this would seem to fuck up my econ completely since I should get lurkers off like 3 hatch. I'm really trying to figure out a good way of dealing with this build, but haven't found it yet. Here's the most recent rep of me getting owned by it: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31116 I went 5h muta cause I mistoke the timing of the forge due to bad scouting, thought it was starport-> +1 speedlot, but clearly wasn't. I've had another game going 3h muta getting completely dominated. So the guy might be right about the lurkers, since mutas doesn't seem to do the trick? You have a replay of an S class progamer against it so we can compare your play to something? | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 11 2010 08:10 neVern wrote: You have a replay of an S class progamer against it so we can compare your play to something? You don't need a progamer replay to analyze this person's replay. Just look for mistakes. | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
On February 11 2010 06:30 Papvin wrote: Okay, so it seems the protosses I've played were all right, I need to get lurkers asap! Would you guys recommend opening like 3h lurker with den at 50% lair like in zvt? I guess it'd come in decent time to stop the attack, might aswell go practice my lurker openings since I've pretty much exclusively opened 3h spire 5h den zvp against fe lol. You should NOT get lurkers ASAP. That would be a HUGE error. You've definitely misunderstood. Lurkers ASAP are a TERRIBLE idea. If you're wondering why, review Savior vs Bisu, the career-ending MSL finals. If you lurker first against double Stargate, you are doomed. You will lose so many overlords and so much map control to DTs that you will be endlessly frustrated. The key is to survive the +1 rush by using a completely standard speedling/sunken defense. You could also probably create a good hydralisk timing to defend the initial rush (with a little sunken support). Remember, the Protoss is not trying to kill you with the initial attack, he's planning to transition into corsairs. You can hold off the initial rush without TOO much trouble. Then transition into hydralisk to block the corsairs. THEN transition into lurkers, but NOT before. Oh caps are fun. | ||
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