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On February 11 2010 09:18 Failsafe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 06:30 Papvin wrote:
Okay, so it seems the protosses I've played were all right, I need to get lurkers asap! Would you guys recommend opening like 3h lurker with den at 50% lair like in zvt? I guess it'd come in decent time to stop the attack, might aswell go practice my lurker openings since I've pretty much exclusively opened 3h spire 5h den zvp against fe lol. You should NOT get lurkers ASAP. That would be a HUGE error. You've definitely misunderstood. Lurkers ASAP are a TERRIBLE idea. If you're wondering why, review Savior vs Bisu, the career-ending MSL finals. If you lurker first against double Stargate, you are doomed. You will lose so many overlords and so much map control to DTs that you will be endlessly frustrated. The key is to survive the +1 rush by using a completely standard speedling/sunken defense. You could also probably create a good hydralisk timing to defend the initial rush (with a little sunken support). Remember, the Protoss is not trying to kill you with the initial attack, he's planning to transition into corsairs. You can hold off the initial rush without TOO much trouble. Then transition into hydralisk to block the corsairs. THEN transition into lurkers, but NOT before. Oh caps are fun.
Those games were single stargate, and the stargate came before even +1 attack. This build gets the stargates way later, allowing you to get lurkers and still have time to pump hydras and get hydra speed or range before he can get a significant number of corsairs, which I strongly advise doing. But to do this, make sure you take your 2nd gas as soon as possible after lurker tech starts, and your 5th hatch will probably be delayed for a while.
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On February 11 2010 02:10 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 01:57 Failsafe wrote:
Just use a good building wall and 3 sunkens at both your 3rd and your natural to stop the +1 zealots. Build a few speedlings for extra reinforcement and use drones as needed. With modern walling zerg play there's really no reason to struggle against a +1 charge.
Once you've stopped the +1 speedlots, immediately transition into hydras and probably place a few spores for safety reasons. If you can use speedlings to deny his third until you get lurkers you should be in great shape since 2 stargate sair is a pretty gas heavy build so he won't have the necessary items to stop lurkers from destroying him.
Use your newly morphed lurkers to stop his third and then expand twice and tech to hive. If you succeed with this the game should be over. If you don't succeed at denying the third I think a lurker contain would still be a good bet since the gas issue is still an immediate problem for a protoss using this build. Assuming the protoss gets his third he'll have a chance to break the contain, but he'll be delayed and probably won't have reavers available. So you should have a much better than usual chance of maintaining a lurker contain and winning the game without any real difficulties.
Anyway lurkers are gonna be a key unit in beating a toss who uses this build. You just have to make sure that you get enough hydralisk to defend against the corsairs and any further zealot aggression before you start to play with heavy lurker action. Basically the key to beating this build is that it's pretty linear and you should be able to anticipate the timings easily. If you fuck up, it'll probably be hard to recover, but if you don't fuck up, and you play a conservative game, you should be in good shape The problem with using sunkens/lings to defend the +1 push is that you lose map control. A smart P will just back off and grab his third. If you do use sunkens/lings to defend the +1 push, then you must've put your third base on another natural, else you wont be able to take a 4th while he takes his third.
I don't think this is a huge issue because if the P does expo then you've won. Before I comment on why I think that's the case, I will say that I really only recommend the 6 Sunkens if you are not confident in your micro. The +1 Speedlot push is gonna be weaker than normal since the P is planning on transitioning into double Stargate right afterward, and 6 Sunkens is probably a little superfluous. But, that aside, even though 6 Sunks are expensive, in your average iCCup game it is far from letting the P run away with the game. It's much better to err on the side of caution because failing your defense against the +1 Speedlot rush is a DEFINITE loss against this dual threat build. It's actually because the build is dual threat that you can afford to squander a little extra resources on defense.
If the P sees all this defense then pulls back you are immediately free to send your group of defensive Speedlings to the hypothetical expansion so that you can kill the probe and deny the Nexus (remember, the P will almost certainly NOT send a Probe to the expansion in conjunction with his attack because the Corsair switch will require all of his free resources - that means the Nexus will start late and can probably be denied). Failing a probe intercept you can use the Speedlings to destroy the Nexus, or failing that, you can use the Speedlings to destroy the Cannons warping to defend the Nexus. Failing that - and assuming you're aware of the double Stargate, you can mass Hydralisk with +1 attack and run him over for being too greedy.
There is literally no way that a Protoss can take a third base following a +1 Speedlot opening with a double Stargate switch and have enough units to defend himself against a mass midgame +1 Hydralisk push. Even NonY, on his stream, doesn't attempt to take a quick third (most of the time) when he's using this build order. The reason is that any Protoss attempting this build can only afford to produce from 3 or at MOST 4 Gateways because he is also financing 2 Stargates, and Corsairs are very expensive. Especially in Vespene - at 100/Corsair this build really reduces the number of HTs available to the P.
So if P takes a third base he has to defend it with Cannons and units from 4 Gateways (mostly zealots). You'll have 5-6 Hatches pumping NOTHING BUT +1 Ranged Hydralisks. You CANNOT POSSIBLY lose against an opponent near your skill level. Hell, defending mass mid-game +1 Hydralisk can be a chore with the ideal defense which is something like 7 Gateways and lots of Storm. Defending with Corsairs and half an army of Zealots is just clearly impossible.
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On February 11 2010 09:27 Monkeyz_Rule wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 09:18 Failsafe wrote:On February 11 2010 06:30 Papvin wrote:
Okay, so it seems the protosses I've played were all right, I need to get lurkers asap! Would you guys recommend opening like 3h lurker with den at 50% lair like in zvt? I guess it'd come in decent time to stop the attack, might aswell go practice my lurker openings since I've pretty much exclusively opened 3h spire 5h den zvp against fe lol. You should NOT get lurkers ASAP. That would be a HUGE error. You've definitely misunderstood. Lurkers ASAP are a TERRIBLE idea. If you're wondering why, review Savior vs Bisu, the career-ending MSL finals. If you lurker first against double Stargate, you are doomed. You will lose so many overlords and so much map control to DTs that you will be endlessly frustrated. The key is to survive the +1 rush by using a completely standard speedling/sunken defense. You could also probably create a good hydralisk timing to defend the initial rush (with a little sunken support). Remember, the Protoss is not trying to kill you with the initial attack, he's planning to transition into corsairs. You can hold off the initial rush without TOO much trouble. Then transition into hydralisk to block the corsairs. THEN transition into lurkers, but NOT before. Oh caps are fun. Those games were single stargate, and the stargate came before even +1 attack. This build gets the stargates way later, allowing you to get lurkers and still have time to pump hydras and get hydra speed or range before he can get a significant number of corsairs, which I strongly advise doing. But to do this, make sure you take your 2nd gas as soon as possible after lurker tech starts, and your 5th hatch will probably be delayed for a while.
Whoops, my bad. You're absolutely right. As far as an ideal counter, what you're describing is probably the one. My only worry would be that the build you're describing would require really good execution to get the necessary units and still have an economy. You'd still need a few Sunkens and Lings to help defend the +1 rush (although you'd defend it very decisively). Otherwise you'd face the run-by into the main and things would get messy.
For a high-level zerg, what you're describing is definitely the best counter but for a low-level zerg, I think opening with a healthy number of Sunkens and then just transitioning into mass Hydra and eventually Lurkers is gonna result in a lot less sticky spots
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I go 2 hatch muta when that happens.
9lord
12hatch
11pool
12gas
11drone
x8lings
lair
16lord
ling speed
x8drones
spire
x2drones
@100%lair - send drone to 3rd
26Hatch
26natural gas
26x2lords
x6mutas
x4scourge
x5mutas
x2scourge
@100%3rd Hatch overlord
hatch at natural
transition into a hydra build and macro up while harrassing
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I just posted in a thread next to yours...a protoss asking the same question...copied it here...
"Basically the right counter is a muta opening into hydra/scourge. It takes some time to build up your corsair fleet even with 2 stargates, so there is still a small window after your +1 attack is over when the mutas will have map control. You will have 4-5 corsairs and more in production, so your base is safe, but you cannot move out to face a full group of full health mutas yet, meaning you can't attack or take an expansion. This is the window where zerg can safely get a few drones and add scourge to keep your corsairs in base while he switches to hydra/scourge. Keep in mind that in this build you are not getting storms anytime soon, so a zerg who successfully transitions into mass hydra without taking any damage early on will be in a better position at this point.
Personally I start +1 air armor as soon as I see both +1 and stargate in anticipation of this fairly tricky build. It's a very simple game plan for zerg once you know what to do...1. defend the +1 attack with mutas as usual, 2. keep the corsair fleet at bay with muta/scourge before the corsair number become overwhelming (8-9?). 3. switch to mass hydras in anticipation of losing air control. 4. use hydras to expand and keeping the mutas alive. 5. get lurkers. 6. re-take air control when +1 air armor finishes."
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Just a little update of apreciation (spelling?)! Got owned twice by this C protoss, but I felt he wasn't much better and it was pretty close games, so I took a third game where he did the strat mentioned in op. Well, I saw fast +1, recalled advice from this thread and build my den as I saw the +1. The fast lurkers completely shut down his aggresion, and his lack of detection and enough goons made it so effective that he was on 2 bases the rest of the game, ending with me getting ultras and rolling him. Thanks alot for the help guys, I think I got a real shot against this build now <3!
Replay if anyone's interested (quite brute play, but it gets the job done):
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31327
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You open up lurkers, defend the +1 zeal attack easily, set up a contain, kill off wall-in gate and forge, scourge down his first 2 corsairs if he sends them, if no, your overlord speed will be done, keep overlords over your hydras, and basically contain him to 2 bases, until he tries to break out, dies and gg's.
On February 13 2010 22:48 Papvin wrote:Just a little update of apreciation (spelling?)! Got owned twice by this C protoss, but I felt he wasn't much better and it was pretty close games, so I took a third game where he did the strat mentioned in op. Well, I saw fast +1, recalled advice from this thread and build my den as I saw the +1. The fast lurkers completely shut down his aggresion, and his lack of detection and enough goons made it so effective that he was on 2 bases the rest of the game, ending with me getting ultras and rolling him. Thanks alot for the help guys, I think I got a real shot against this build now <3! Replay if anyone's interested (quite brute play, but it gets the job done): http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31327
Glad to see someone actually uses my advices ;P (if u used mine one ^^). Anyways, I prefer not to get ultras except if you are in incredibly advantageus possition (In example: 6 mining bases zerg vs 2 bases mined out toss).
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On February 11 2010 14:07 w3jjjj wrote:
I just posted in a thread next to yours...a protoss asking the same question...copied it here...
"Basically the right counter is a muta opening into hydra/scourge. It takes some time to build up your corsair fleet even with 2 stargates, so there is still a small window after your +1 attack is over when the mutas will have map control. You will have 4-5 corsairs and more in production, so your base is safe, but you cannot move out to face a full group of full health mutas yet, meaning you can't attack or take an expansion. This is the window where zerg can safely get a few drones and add scourge to keep your corsairs in base while he switches to hydra/scourge. Keep in mind that in this build you are not getting storms anytime soon, so a zerg who successfully transitions into mass hydra without taking any damage early on will be in a better position at this point.
Personally I start +1 air armor as soon as I see both +1 and stargate in anticipation of this fairly tricky build. It's a very simple game plan for zerg once you know what to do...1. defend the +1 attack with mutas as usual, 2. keep the corsair fleet at bay with muta/scourge before the corsair number become overwhelming (8-9?). 3. switch to mass hydras in anticipation of losing air control. 4. use hydras to expand and keeping the mutas alive. 5. get lurkers. 6. re-take air control when +1 air armor finishes."
How do all the tech timings fit in? Like, you're going to be pretty pressed for gas since you're opening mutas AND getting +1 air armor (I'm assuming you're taking the second gas right after lair finishes). Then do you get your den and go speed->range->lurker like usual? If that's the case, wouldn't +1 air armor finish before lurker aspect but still later than a timing window for a possible zealot/templar/corsair attack? So basically, what do you do about the timing window before you can take back air control and you have no lair units that can control his templar?
Also, at the timing window where he is transitioning to corsairs, my intuition tells me that as long as he didn't suicide his zealots, you can't be droning at this time because you have an approximately one minute long timing window (~5 production rounds?) before he gets his critical mass of corsairs, and if you're not building hydras, then once those corsairs come, you won't have enough to defend against the zealots + corsairs - just a group or so of hydras and a useless group of mutas.
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at 50% lair you start gas for mutas. + armor is mainly for scourge i believe.
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EPT
