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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
Here's the most recent rep of me getting owned by it: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31116 I went 5h muta cause I mistoke the timing of the forge due to bad scouting, thought it was starport-> +1 speedlot, but clearly wasn't. I've had another game going 3h muta getting completely dominated. So the guy might be right about the lurkers, since mutas doesn't seem to do the trick? | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
If the Zerg makes regular neo sauron hydralisk, then the speedlot rush will come before this and you stand a good chance to do a fair amount of damage. If the Zerg makes mutalisks (seems common) to counter the +1 speedzealot rush, then the zealots will still do damage, but the mutalisk will be unable to follow up with a counter-attack, because there will be 5-6 corsairs waiting for him. What should work well therefore is to make a hydralisk den and get earlier hydralisks. The +1 zealot rush should do very little in terms of damage, and you will be able to follow up with pressure on the Protoss' main because of a low HT count. You can move in with a group of hydralisks, snipe the gateway that was a part of their original FE, and just make him use what few storms he has, which you can dodge easily since you are controlling a small group of hydralisks. | ||
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sfdrew
United States201 Posts
I can't watch the replay right now (at work), but I have to check it out later. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
1) 3h spire into 9muta (4th hatch after spire), beat off the zeal rush. do this if his forge is spinning at 50% lair. 2) get 5th hatch, den evo and go hydra. When u want to move out with hydras, if he has like 6 sairs annoying you, make 2 spores on nat and park ovies on top, 1 spore on third base. It's so gg because he won't have storm yet and the only thing keeping your hydras in base are his annoying sairs. His sair count wont be high enough by the time your mutas fend off the lot push and counter his main/nat. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:45 FortuneSyn wrote: I've played a guy who did this 3 times in a row against me and I beat it 3 times like this. 1) 3h spire into 9muta (4th hatch after spire), beat off the zeal rush. do this if his forge is spinning at 50% lair. 2) get 5th hatch, den evo and go hydra. When u want to move out with hydras, if he has like 6 sairs annoying you, make 2 spores on nat and park ovies on top, 1 spore on third base. It's so gg because he won't have storm yet and the only thing keeping your hydras in base are his annoying sairs. His sair count wont be high enough by the time your mutas fend off the lot push and counter his main/nat. This might work, but this build is designed to beat neo sauron, not three hat mutalisk. I suspect if a Protoss player scouted your build and saw neo sauron, he wouldn't be doing this rush. However if you went three hat spire and then scourge -> fourth hat like usual, then the rush would still be effective. It sounds like the Protoss you played simply knew the build, but wasn't actually aware of how to adapt with it. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:51 Salv wrote: This might work, but this build is designed to beat neo sauron, not three hat mutalisk. I suspect if a Protoss player scouted your build and saw neo sauron, he wouldn't be doing this rush. However if you went three hat spire and then scourge -> fourth hat like usual, then the rush would still be effective. It sounds like the Protoss you played simply knew the build, but wasn't actually aware of how to adapt with it. I don't understand your post. First you said this P build is made to counter neosauron, then you say he wouldn't do this P build if he scouts Z doing neosauron? Plz define what neosauron is. For me it's 3h spire, directly into 5h scourge and then hydra. | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:51 Salv wrote:1 This might work, but this build is designed to beat neo sauron, not three hat mutalisk. I suspect if a Protoss player scouted your build and saw neo sauron, he wouldn't be doing this rush. However if you went three hat spire and then scourge -> fourth hat like usual, then the rush would still be effective. It sounds like the Protoss you played simply knew the build, but wasn't actually aware of how to adapt with it. He cant scout if u do the 3 hat muta or neo sauron before he have invested to much, so that he is forced to do the attack. He then already have speed and +1, so he have to use it. | ||
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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:45 FortuneSyn wrote: I've played a guy who did this 3 times in a row against me and I beat it 3 times like this. 1) 3h spire into 9muta (4th hatch after spire), beat off the zeal rush. do this if his forge is spinning at 50% lair. 2) get 5th hatch, den evo and go hydra. When u want to move out with hydras, if he has like 6 sairs annoying you, make 2 spores on nat and park ovies on top, 1 spore on third base. It's so gg because he won't have storm yet and the only thing keeping your hydras in base are his annoying sairs. His sair count wont be high enough by the time your mutas fend off the lot push and counter his main/nat. If you can find them, can you please post those replays? I did pretty much the same thing the first time I fought it, and got completely rolled. My hydras were just waay late so his sairs killed so many overlords the game was over just there. Actually, if anyone has replays of zergs beating this build (yourself or others, don't care), it'd be really apreciated! | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
Once you've stopped the +1 speedlots, immediately transition into hydras and probably place a few spores for safety reasons. If you can use speedlings to deny his third until you get lurkers you should be in great shape since 2 stargate sair is a pretty gas heavy build so he won't have the necessary items to stop lurkers from destroying him. Use your newly morphed lurkers to stop his third and then expand twice and tech to hive. If you succeed with this the game should be over. If you don't succeed at denying the third I think a lurker contain would still be a good bet since the gas issue is still an immediate problem for a protoss using this build. Assuming the protoss gets his third he'll have a chance to break the contain, but he'll be delayed and probably won't have reavers available. So you should have a much better than usual chance of maintaining a lurker contain and winning the game without any real difficulties. Anyway lurkers are gonna be a key unit in beating a toss who uses this build. You just have to make sure that you get enough hydralisk to defend against the corsairs and any further zealot aggression before you start to play with heavy lurker action. Basically the key to beating this build is that it's pretty linear and you should be able to anticipate the timings easily. If you fuck up, it'll probably be hard to recover, but if you don't fuck up, and you play a conservative game, you should be in good shape | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On February 11 2010 01:38 Salv wrote: Fortune, my bad, I misread your post, I thought you meant you were going for a regular three hatchery mutalisk build. If you did the spire as normal and then a fourth hat into mutas, I am surprised you won because if what you wrote is indeed the case, then this build would be awful against mutalisk, which is the direct counter to a speedlot rush. That being said, I think by the time you dealt with his zealot rush and began to make hydralisks, if the Protoss did not already have zealots, high templar and started to expand I would be very surprised. Well first he spends his gas on +1 atk, citadel, and leg speed. Zerg spends his gas on mutas = direct counter. Then P spends gas on 2x stargate and 6 sairs, temp archive, and like 2 DTS or whatever. Zerg spends gas on hydra den/+attack, and hydras. P will probably be researching storm/getting temps while zerg has a sizeable hydra group maintaining map control. Of course these things change depending on what P decides to do. My point is that the way the game plays out, if you transition to muta and then hydra with good timings you can maintain mapcontrol for a long time. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On February 11 2010 01:57 Failsafe wrote: Just use a good building wall and 3 sunkens at both your 3rd and your natural to stop the +1 zealots. Build a few speedlings for extra reinforcement and use drones as needed. With modern walling zerg play there's really no reason to struggle against a +1 charge. Once you've stopped the +1 speedlots, immediately transition into hydras and probably place a few spores for safety reasons. If you can use speedlings to deny his third until you get lurkers you should be in great shape since 2 stargate sair is a pretty gas heavy build so he won't have the necessary items to stop lurkers from destroying him. Use your newly morphed lurkers to stop his third and then expand twice and tech to hive. If you succeed with this the game should be over. If you don't succeed at denying the third I think a lurker contain would still be a good bet since the gas issue is still an immediate problem for a protoss using this build. Assuming the protoss gets his third he'll have a chance to break the contain, but he'll be delayed and probably won't have reavers available. So you should have a much better than usual chance of maintaining a lurker contain and winning the game without any real difficulties. Anyway lurkers are gonna be a key unit in beating a toss who uses this build. You just have to make sure that you get enough hydralisk to defend against the corsairs and any further zealot aggression before you start to play with heavy lurker action. Basically the key to beating this build is that it's pretty linear and you should be able to anticipate the timings easily. If you fuck up, it'll probably be hard to recover, but if you don't fuck up, and you play a conservative game, you should be in good shape The problem with using sunkens/lings to defend the +1 push is that you lose map control. A smart P will just back off and grab his third. If you do use sunkens/lings to defend the +1 push, then you must've put your third base on another natural, else you wont be able to take a 4th while he takes his third. On February 11 2010 01:16 Papvin wrote: If you can find them, can you please post those replays? I did pretty much the same thing the first time I fought it, and got completely rolled. My hydras were just waay late so his sairs killed so many overlords the game was over just there. Actually, if anyone has replays of zergs beating this build (yourself or others, don't care), it'd be really apreciated! I'll look for them when I get home. | ||
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Rayzorblade
United States1172 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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neVern
United States115 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:36 Papvin wrote: Hi, I have recently encountered a strategy that I have such a hard time beating. The toss gets +1 asap without stargate and gets a total of 2 gateways pumping untill its done. The he attacks with +1 speedlots, and gets 2 stargates pumping corsairs. If I go something like 3h muta, which has always been my response to +1 speedlot rush, I get completely pwned by the sairs. If I do anything else I die to the speedlots. A guy I played against suggested that I should go lurkers and spores against sairs, but this would seem to fuck up my econ completely since I should get lurkers off like 3 hatch. I'm really trying to figure out a good way of dealing with this build, but haven't found it yet. Here's the most recent rep of me getting owned by it: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31116 I went 5h muta cause I mistoke the timing of the forge due to bad scouting, thought it was starport-> +1 speedlot, but clearly wasn't. I've had another game going 3h muta getting completely dominated. So the guy might be right about the lurkers, since mutas doesn't seem to do the trick? You have a replay of an S class progamer against it so we can compare your play to something? | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On February 11 2010 08:10 neVern wrote: You have a replay of an S class progamer against it so we can compare your play to something? You don't need a progamer replay to analyze this person's replay. Just look for mistakes. | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
On February 11 2010 06:30 Papvin wrote: Okay, so it seems the protosses I've played were all right, I need to get lurkers asap! Would you guys recommend opening like 3h lurker with den at 50% lair like in zvt? I guess it'd come in decent time to stop the attack, might aswell go practice my lurker openings since I've pretty much exclusively opened 3h spire 5h den zvp against fe lol. You should NOT get lurkers ASAP. That would be a HUGE error. You've definitely misunderstood. Lurkers ASAP are a TERRIBLE idea. If you're wondering why, review Savior vs Bisu, the career-ending MSL finals. If you lurker first against double Stargate, you are doomed. You will lose so many overlords and so much map control to DTs that you will be endlessly frustrated. The key is to survive the +1 rush by using a completely standard speedling/sunken defense. You could also probably create a good hydralisk timing to defend the initial rush (with a little sunken support). Remember, the Protoss is not trying to kill you with the initial attack, he's planning to transition into corsairs. You can hold off the initial rush without TOO much trouble. Then transition into hydralisk to block the corsairs. THEN transition into lurkers, but NOT before. Oh caps are fun. | ||
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Neon_Monkey
United States270 Posts
On February 11 2010 09:18 Failsafe wrote: You should NOT get lurkers ASAP. That would be a HUGE error. You've definitely misunderstood. Lurkers ASAP are a TERRIBLE idea. If you're wondering why, review Savior vs Bisu, the career-ending MSL finals. If you lurker first against double Stargate, you are doomed. You will lose so many overlords and so much map control to DTs that you will be endlessly frustrated. The key is to survive the +1 rush by using a completely standard speedling/sunken defense. You could also probably create a good hydralisk timing to defend the initial rush (with a little sunken support). Remember, the Protoss is not trying to kill you with the initial attack, he's planning to transition into corsairs. You can hold off the initial rush without TOO much trouble. Then transition into hydralisk to block the corsairs. THEN transition into lurkers, but NOT before. Oh caps are fun. Those games were single stargate, and the stargate came before even +1 attack. This build gets the stargates way later, allowing you to get lurkers and still have time to pump hydras and get hydra speed or range before he can get a significant number of corsairs, which I strongly advise doing. But to do this, make sure you take your 2nd gas as soon as possible after lurker tech starts, and your 5th hatch will probably be delayed for a while. | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
On February 11 2010 02:10 FortuneSyn wrote: The problem with using sunkens/lings to defend the +1 push is that you lose map control. A smart P will just back off and grab his third. If you do use sunkens/lings to defend the +1 push, then you must've put your third base on another natural, else you wont be able to take a 4th while he takes his third. I don't think this is a huge issue because if the P does expo then you've won. Before I comment on why I think that's the case, I will say that I really only recommend the 6 Sunkens if you are not confident in your micro. The +1 Speedlot push is gonna be weaker than normal since the P is planning on transitioning into double Stargate right afterward, and 6 Sunkens is probably a little superfluous. But, that aside, even though 6 Sunks are expensive, in your average iCCup game it is far from letting the P run away with the game. It's much better to err on the side of caution because failing your defense against the +1 Speedlot rush is a DEFINITE loss against this dual threat build. It's actually because the build is dual threat that you can afford to squander a little extra resources on defense. If the P sees all this defense then pulls back you are immediately free to send your group of defensive Speedlings to the hypothetical expansion so that you can kill the probe and deny the Nexus (remember, the P will almost certainly NOT send a Probe to the expansion in conjunction with his attack because the Corsair switch will require all of his free resources - that means the Nexus will start late and can probably be denied). Failing a probe intercept you can use the Speedlings to destroy the Nexus, or failing that, you can use the Speedlings to destroy the Cannons warping to defend the Nexus. Failing that - and assuming you're aware of the double Stargate, you can mass Hydralisk with +1 attack and run him over for being too greedy. There is literally no way that a Protoss can take a third base following a +1 Speedlot opening with a double Stargate switch and have enough units to defend himself against a mass midgame +1 Hydralisk push. Even NonY, on his stream, doesn't attempt to take a quick third (most of the time) when he's using this build order. The reason is that any Protoss attempting this build can only afford to produce from 3 or at MOST 4 Gateways because he is also financing 2 Stargates, and Corsairs are very expensive. Especially in Vespene - at 100/Corsair this build really reduces the number of HTs available to the P. So if P takes a third base he has to defend it with Cannons and units from 4 Gateways (mostly zealots). You'll have 5-6 Hatches pumping NOTHING BUT +1 Ranged Hydralisks. You CANNOT POSSIBLY lose against an opponent near your skill level. Hell, defending mass mid-game +1 Hydralisk can be a chore with the ideal defense which is something like 7 Gateways and lots of Storm. Defending with Corsairs and half an army of Zealots is just clearly impossible. | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
On February 11 2010 09:27 Monkeyz_Rule wrote: Those games were single stargate, and the stargate came before even +1 attack. This build gets the stargates way later, allowing you to get lurkers and still have time to pump hydras and get hydra speed or range before he can get a significant number of corsairs, which I strongly advise doing. But to do this, make sure you take your 2nd gas as soon as possible after lurker tech starts, and your 5th hatch will probably be delayed for a while. Whoops, my bad. You're absolutely right. As far as an ideal counter, what you're describing is probably the one. My only worry would be that the build you're describing would require really good execution to get the necessary units and still have an economy. You'd still need a few Sunkens and Lings to help defend the +1 rush (although you'd defend it very decisively). Otherwise you'd face the run-by into the main and things would get messy. For a high-level zerg, what you're describing is definitely the best counter but for a low-level zerg, I think opening with a healthy number of Sunkens and then just transitioning into mass Hydra and eventually Lurkers is gonna result in a lot less sticky spots | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
9lord 12hatch 11pool 12gas 11drone x8lings lair 16lord ling speed x8drones spire x2drones @100%lair - send drone to 3rd 26Hatch 26natural gas 26x2lords x6mutas x4scourge x5mutas x2scourge @100%3rd Hatch overlord hatch at natural transition into a hydra build and macro up while harrassing | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
"Basically the right counter is a muta opening into hydra/scourge. It takes some time to build up your corsair fleet even with 2 stargates, so there is still a small window after your +1 attack is over when the mutas will have map control. You will have 4-5 corsairs and more in production, so your base is safe, but you cannot move out to face a full group of full health mutas yet, meaning you can't attack or take an expansion. This is the window where zerg can safely get a few drones and add scourge to keep your corsairs in base while he switches to hydra/scourge. Keep in mind that in this build you are not getting storms anytime soon, so a zerg who successfully transitions into mass hydra without taking any damage early on will be in a better position at this point. Personally I start +1 air armor as soon as I see both +1 and stargate in anticipation of this fairly tricky build. It's a very simple game plan for zerg once you know what to do...1. defend the +1 attack with mutas as usual, 2. keep the corsair fleet at bay with muta/scourge before the corsair number become overwhelming (8-9?). 3. switch to mass hydras in anticipation of losing air control. 4. use hydras to expand and keeping the mutas alive. 5. get lurkers. 6. re-take air control when +1 air armor finishes." | ||
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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
Replay if anyone's interested (quite brute play, but it gets the job done): http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31327 | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On February 13 2010 22:48 Papvin wrote: Just a little update of apreciation (spelling?)! Got owned twice by this C protoss, but I felt he wasn't much better and it was pretty close games, so I took a third game where he did the strat mentioned in op. Well, I saw fast +1, recalled advice from this thread and build my den as I saw the +1. The fast lurkers completely shut down his aggresion, and his lack of detection and enough goons made it so effective that he was on 2 bases the rest of the game, ending with me getting ultras and rolling him. Thanks alot for the help guys, I think I got a real shot against this build now <3! Replay if anyone's interested (quite brute play, but it gets the job done): http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=31327 Glad to see someone actually uses my advices ;P (if u used mine one ^^). Anyways, I prefer not to get ultras except if you are in incredibly advantageus possition (In example: 6 mining bases zerg vs 2 bases mined out toss). | ||
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OptimusTom
United States154 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=111975¤tpage=3 | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On February 11 2010 14:07 w3jjjj wrote: I just posted in a thread next to yours...a protoss asking the same question...copied it here... "Basically the right counter is a muta opening into hydra/scourge. It takes some time to build up your corsair fleet even with 2 stargates, so there is still a small window after your +1 attack is over when the mutas will have map control. You will have 4-5 corsairs and more in production, so your base is safe, but you cannot move out to face a full group of full health mutas yet, meaning you can't attack or take an expansion. This is the window where zerg can safely get a few drones and add scourge to keep your corsairs in base while he switches to hydra/scourge. Keep in mind that in this build you are not getting storms anytime soon, so a zerg who successfully transitions into mass hydra without taking any damage early on will be in a better position at this point. Personally I start +1 air armor as soon as I see both +1 and stargate in anticipation of this fairly tricky build. It's a very simple game plan for zerg once you know what to do...1. defend the +1 attack with mutas as usual, 2. keep the corsair fleet at bay with muta/scourge before the corsair number become overwhelming (8-9?). 3. switch to mass hydras in anticipation of losing air control. 4. use hydras to expand and keeping the mutas alive. 5. get lurkers. 6. re-take air control when +1 air armor finishes." How do all the tech timings fit in? Like, you're going to be pretty pressed for gas since you're opening mutas AND getting +1 air armor (I'm assuming you're taking the second gas right after lair finishes). Then do you get your den and go speed->range->lurker like usual? If that's the case, wouldn't +1 air armor finish before lurker aspect but still later than a timing window for a possible zealot/templar/corsair attack? So basically, what do you do about the timing window before you can take back air control and you have no lair units that can control his templar? Also, at the timing window where he is transitioning to corsairs, my intuition tells me that as long as he didn't suicide his zealots, you can't be droning at this time because you have an approximately one minute long timing window (~5 production rounds?) before he gets his critical mass of corsairs, and if you're not building hydras, then once those corsairs come, you won't have enough to defend against the zealots + corsairs - just a group or so of hydras and a useless group of mutas. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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