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Karune explains how T or P counter 1hatch hydra.

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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n00bonicPlague
Profile Joined August 2008
United States197 Posts
September 10 2009 18:01 GMT
#1
Source: How does T or P counter 1hatch queen?
Show nested quote +
Hi Karune!

Teamliquid recently release a article that claims that 1 hatch queen is almost impossible to beat do to the economic advantage and denying scouting.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101195

We were curious how Terran or Protoss should deal with a zerg 1hatch queen build.
There is also an article here which states a few of my thoughts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101510

Additionally, the 1hatch queen build is strong, but relatively easy to stop if you know this is a potential strategy on the field.

These are just a few strategies I use and by no means the only strategies I've seen used:

With Terran, you will naturally want to block your choke point. This in itself will easily stop fast Zerglings, as you can use Marines to fire upon enemies from a cliff (since they don't have LoS, just make sure you keep those pesky Overlords at bay, which is relatively easy as well). SCVs do an excellent job of repairing much faster than Zerglings can do damage at this early of a stage. Hydralisks on the other hand pose a bit more problems, but can still be handled by a group of Marines behind supply depots or even a bunker if it is needed. Terran choke points are quite difficult to break at the moment and while your enemy expends resources determined to break it, I would hope you would be teching either to Banshees or Reapers for harassment, then putting them into the defensive and taking you into the mid-game, where arguably at the moment Zerg is forced to be at a defensive if they did do the 1hatch queen strategy (key point being the 1 hatch or late expand).

With Protoss, the proposed Zerg strategy is a bit more viable and it takes a little more skill to defend against it. For me, I often block my choke point with 2 gateways or 1 gateway/1 cybernetics core (if I am teching), leaving one cell open for an easy single Zealot block. Breaking that choke point for a single Zergling hitting that Zealot at a time, is an easy block, and quite cost effective for the Protoss player. For a determined Zerg player, they would either start attacking the gateways or tech to Banelings to take out the Zealot(s).

Timing-wise, you will be able to get your second Zealot out in time well before the Gateway is even at half health, which is usually enough to push off those initial Zerglings. When your Cybernetics Core is up, this opens up Nullifiers, which is a must used unit in my opinion against Zerg. At this time if the Zerg player has converted to Hydralisks (or even straight teched to Hydralisks), you should have at least one Nullifier up, which are excellent at both killing Hydralisks (with even 1 Zealot tanking) or even better, cutting a Zerg force in half while they push up the ramp, easily allowing your Zealot to hold the choke while your ranged units like Nullifiers and Stalkers annihilate half the force with ease, putting the Zerg on the defensive now, and opening up mid-game options.

Of course both strategies require micro, which is intentional - with an Overlord scouting and giving LoS, Hydralisks can be very potent. The 1 hatch queen strategy is quite capable, but not overpowering.

Hope this was useful - though you can expect lots of things to still change and be changed throughout beta.

Zerg's were mentioned as the 'weaker' race in a developer interview not because of their early game, but their mid game. In current builds, it is much more balanced with recent changes to make Zerg a bit more threatening in mid-game, such as Roaches moving while burrowed as one example.


You can thank ArcherofAiur for that post :D
Beta = 04/01/10
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:24:47
September 10 2009 18:04 GMT
#2
Looks like in both cases they're expecting for one-base play by T/P above a ramp (what happens to ramp-less maps >_> ) .
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13919 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:10:19
September 10 2009 18:10 GMT
#3
On September 11 2009 03:04 Southlight wrote:
Looks like in both cases they're expecting for one-base play by T/P above a ramp (what happens to ramp-less maps >_>).


everyone cries (unless your a zerg)
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
dcberkeley
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada844 Posts
September 10 2009 18:12 GMT
#4
i thought that the point was that 1 hatch wasn't impossible to stop but that it denied scouting too well and left your opponents in the dark from which you could either macro up drones or offensive and your opponent would have to keep guessing from a backwards position

ie. the solutions seem to only address early lings/hydras not the alternative or

did i not comprehend/read properly?
Moktira is da bomb
randombum
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2378 Posts
September 10 2009 18:12 GMT
#5
It doesn't address the fact that zerg can power up.

All it stated was. "If the T/P turtles they won't lose" "When they get to the mid-game they win."

Except with the abilitiy to mass drones, won't the Z have too large of an economy before t/p can push? Like, after the first set of lings with speed to deny scouting, the zerg can get 2 bases running for long enough to be weaker in mid game, but throw enough weak units and you still beat the better army.

I'm sure he knows best, but I would've liked it more if he spoke about how it opens up options not just the ability get a large rush.
n00bonicPlague
Profile Joined August 2008
United States197 Posts
September 10 2009 18:13 GMT
#6
I think it would be amusing if units going uphill would slow down and units going downhill would speed up.
Beta = 04/01/10
geno
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States1404 Posts
September 10 2009 18:13 GMT
#7
I think they are actually just assuming a choke or simcity, not neccesarily a ramp because they even allow overlord LoS to counter the cliff advantage.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:16:56
September 10 2009 18:14 GMT
#8
On September 11 2009 03:12 dcberkeley wrote:
i thought that the point was that 1 hatch wasn't impossible to stop but that it denied scouting too well and left your opponents in the dark from which you could either macro up drones or offensive and your opponent would have to keep guessing from a backwards position

ie. the solutions seem to only address early lings/hydras not the alternative or

did i not comprehend/read properly?



That might just be a disadvantage. Not nessisarily a game changer. You are in the dark for a while but not permanently. Pretty soon you can get Scanner Sweep up.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
PokePill
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:22:43
September 10 2009 18:17 GMT
#9
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers (who are like D+ equivalents), why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.

But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.

He's just like some random bystander that works there as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure there are janitors that work at the offices that have more valuable input.
Teejing
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany1360 Posts
September 10 2009 18:17 GMT
#10
Would have been 2x cooler if karune did 2 mini battle reports for demonstration. ^^
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13919 Posts
September 10 2009 18:19 GMT
#11
On September 11 2009 03:17 PokePill wrote:
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers, why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.

But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.


completely worthless your on crack good sir, just plain old crack
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15325 Posts
September 10 2009 18:20 GMT
#12
I don't understand. The poster specifically asks about the economic advantage from queen unit/drone powering and the difficulty to scouting Zerg, yet he answers how to block a Zergling rush. This does not help at all.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:25:52
September 10 2009 18:23 GMT
#13
If you have additional questions feel free to ask them in that B.Net thread. Karune might reply. But be respectful to Karune.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:31:01
September 10 2009 18:25 GMT
#14
He says things exactly in the same vein that the articlepost he's referencing says. Why doesn't he address the responses people have given in that thread, instead? That would actually be discussing this, rather than blindly spouting his own thoughts.
I <3 the internet, I <3 you
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:29:02
September 10 2009 18:26 GMT
#15
A second read of the OP makes me wonder if they think it's balanced right now because zerg mid-game "sucks," so zerg can't do anything with their supposed economic advantage, or something. LOL.

Also,

On September 11 2009 03:01 n00bonicPlague wrote:For me, I often block my choke point with 2 gateways or 1 gateway/1 cybernetics core (if I am teching), leaving one cell open for an easy single Zealot block. Breaking that choke point for a single Zergling hitting that Zealot at a time, is an easy block, and quite cost effective for the Protoss player. For a determined Zerg player, they would either start attacking the gateways or tech to Banelings to take out the Zealot(s).

Timing-wise, you will be able to get your second Zealot out in time well before the Gateway is even at half health, which is usually enough to push off those initial Zerglings. When your Cybernetics Core is up, this opens up Nullifiers, which is a must used unit in my opinion against Zerg. At this time if the Zerg player has converted to Hydralisks (or even straight teched to Hydralisks), you should have at least one Nullifier up, which are excellent at both killing Hydralisks (with even 1 Zealot tanking) or even better, cutting a Zerg force in half while they push up the ramp, easily allowing your Zealot to hold the choke while your ranged units like Nullifiers and Stalkers annihilate half the force with ease, putting the Zerg on the defensive now, and opening up mid-game options.


Unless I'm imagining things wrong, wouldn't that mean he loses his choke point every time?
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Bebop Berserker
Profile Joined April 2009
United States246 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:28:59
September 10 2009 18:27 GMT
#16
Having a strategy guide before the pros have raped the fuck out of the game is silly. Whatever this guide says will not be relevant in 3 years time. Oh god im going to hate this game when all the noobs are playing it and spouting, "IMBA IMBA IMBA!" Anyhow before i begin ranting, I just want to ask everyone before all the noobs come to just smile and say gg. And anyone of you start calling IMBA! to realize that you should play on the other side and if no1 can stop you consistently then(and only then) should you rage on a forums(where things get done lol.)
Whatever happens, happens.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15325 Posts
September 10 2009 18:28 GMT
#17
I don't have an additional question I would just like the original question being answered. His entire answer is about defending vs a super early rush and then taking the lead throughout the mid game. Which is all good and sound advice, it is just not what HB's article was about, and thus also not what your question was, or was it?

I might have reacted a bit abruptly but I get tired of people misunderstanding the 1 hatch queen play as an early game all-in rush.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
September 10 2009 18:29 GMT
#18
On September 11 2009 03:17 PokePill wrote:
Karune was like a 45% War3 player (Call him D-) when he played in games vs BNet forumers (who are like D+ equivalents), why would he be any better at a more difficult game (SC2). His opinion on game balance is completely worthless, and by the way, we are still waiting for the patch and map pool changes he promised to us on the forums in 2007.

But I mean it is nice to see the COMMUNITY MANAGER post a few times every couple of months with the COMMUNITY.

He's just like some random bystander that works there as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure there are janitors that work at the offices that have more valuable input.

Well, he's probably played more SC2 than almost anyone else, so maybe he's not the second coming of Sun Tzu, but I don't think holding old records against him is fair.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
PokePill
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:33:01
September 10 2009 18:31 GMT
#19
On September 11 2009 03:23 Archerofaiur wrote:
If you have additional questions feel free to ask them in that B.Net thread. Karune might reply. But be respectful to Karune.


Never mind, you're right, I should grow up.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-10 18:35:04
September 10 2009 18:32 GMT
#20
On September 11 2009 03:28 zatic wrote:
I don't have an additional question I would just like the original question being answered. His entire answer is about defending vs a super early rush and then taking the lead throughout the mid game. Which is all good and sound advice, it is just not what HB's article was about, and thus also not what your question was, or was it?

I might have reacted a bit abruptly but I get tired of people misunderstanding the 1 hatch queen play as an early game all-in rush.


Well there are other things that could be fleshed out. Which is why I think people curious should ask karune for clarification in that thread. Personally I think it sounds like you are in the dark for allitle bit and you cant scout for a while. And yah maybe this allows zerg to go macro without you knowing. But that doesnt mean you are going to lose.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
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