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To answer the gas mechanic thing, I'm going to quote Cydra:
Some changes for the gas mechanic.
There are still two Vespene Geysers and workers will harvest Vespene Gas until the entire gas is exhausted. Once the gas is depleted, workers will stop harvesting gas, which means there is no deplete gas mining like the original StarCraft.
Which means that the annoying gas timing mechanic is gone, the only difference from Starcraft is that workers will not carry on mining depleted gas. So the new macro mechanics sound pretty awesome, casuals that wont use it efficiently will not benefit from it and the better players will try to master it, and multiply it with the amount of expansions you'll get late game, it's going to hopefully be some nice macro-work 
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the "intuitive" argument just doesn't work. Only reason for why some people see the requirement for clicking on 20 production buildings constantly is because it's the only thing they have known and done since 5 years back.
For someone who played RTS game that already had MBS system in place the "intuitive" thing would be to have MBS in place. IF you took this players and told "hey you have to constantly click on these 12 buildings under periodic intertvals.If you don't you won't be able to do shit in the game" They will think "Bullshit"
There is nothing intuitive about the click feast that is Starcraft. And No Im' not saying it's a bad thing, just that is as far from intuitive as some people try to make it.
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Ahtgh i really like this
if u stack:
natural multitask requirements+gas mechanic+race exclusive macro mechanic
maybe it can be as macro heavy as brood war
Maybe
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On February 19 2009 08:59 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 08:53 fusionsdf wrote:
You end up with the same drawbacks and benefits, but less intuitively, and less natural I'm not sure where you get that from. What exactly makes the mechanics less intuitive and natural? Just because everything is complicated at first glance doesn't necessarily mean it's hard to learn. The Dark Pylon for example is very simple: Cast AoE, Workers mine more. Cast cloak, unit is cloaked. In fact, nearly all of the mechanics mentioned have a simple cast+effect that doesn't require any large degree of thought. If you want to MASTER the abilities, then of course it's going to be complicated, but all competitive games are like that. The only mechanic that I would agree is unintuitive is the gas mechanic, but so far we haven't heard any updates on it. I certainly wouldn't call the rest of them any harder to learn than it is to use a caster like a High Templar.
I think its pretty obvious which is more intuitive. On one side you have the concept that selecting a single building will allow you to do something with that building. This has been in RTS since the early 90's (since the birth of rts) because its so intuitive.
Casting AOE mining is not intuitive. Knowing that you need to upgrade to dark pylons for macro is not intuitive. Knowing the timing/how many dark pylons to build etc. is not intuitive. And it has to be learned for each race.
If you imagine a player who has never played an RTS before, hasnt read a walkthrough or tutorial, which do you really think they will understand first? That's why its not really debatable which is more intuitive.
The goal of starcraft and SC2 was 'easy to learn, harder to master'. If something is less intuitive, then it makes harder to learn. I think it should be the goal of the developers to raise the skill ceiling in the most intuitive way possible in order to preserve that slope.
Just to compare it to another change to RTS that is an intuitive change. If you look at production queues, you have in my mind, the perfect addition. production queues make it easier for a casual player to produce units without having to master macro, but has a very clear drawback for professional player: a player who uses it stores away minerals that they could otherwise use right now. In addition, it is very clear and easy to read. If I click on my command center and hit the build scv button a bunch of times, I see up to 5 added to the queue. If I hit the cancel button, they disappear and I get my money back.
From a UI and gameplay standpoint, such a change is very readable, and very understandable even to someone unfamiliar to RTS. I think any changes to starcraft2 to make it easier/more enjoyable for casual players should fulfill two criteria:
1) they should be intuitive and easy to read. I shouldn't be expected to read a walkthrough, play a tutorial, or even have played an RTS before to understand it and how best to use it. Searching around my tech tree for something that will make a part of the game easier is not ideal.
2) there should be a clear and understandable use for each addition, but there should also be a clear drawback to the competitive player.
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On February 19 2009 09:24 Integra wrote:
the "intuitive" argument just doesn't work. Only reason for why some people see the requirement for clicking on 20 production buildings constantly is because it's the only thing they have known and done since 5 years back.
For someone who played RTS game that already had MBS system in place the "intuitive" thing would be to have MBS in place. IF you took this players and told "hey you have to constantly click on these 12 buildings under periodic intertvals.If you don't you won't be able to do shit in the game" They will think "Bullshit"
There is nothing intuitive about the click feast that is Starcraft. And No Im' not saying it's a bad thing, just that is as far from intuitive as some people try to make it.
MBS is roughly as intuitive as SBS (this is based in lart part on the players expectations, which of the two is more intuitive).
But thats not what I'm arguing. MBS even if intuitive, lowers the skill ceiling of competive play. Blizzard realizes this, hence the race specific macro gimmicks. And the macro gimmicks are themselves less intuitive than SBS.
In other words:
SBS (Intuitive, Raises skill ceiling)
MBS (Intuitive, Lowers skill ceiling) + macro gimmicks (Not as intuitive, Raises skill ceiling)
I really couldn't find a better word than gimmicks, so I hope people actually read this post and not just pick it apart because of a specific word I used
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MBS is roughly as intuitive as SBS (this is based in lart part on the players expectations, which of the two is more intuitive).
No, a person who only played with MBS will find SBS totally BS; a person who only played with SBS
will find MBS totally BS, both parties will state a valid reason for their standpoint and both will find
their way more right, true or as you put it more "intuitive"
But thats not what I'm arguing. MBS even if intuitive, lowers the skill ceiling of competive play. Blizzard realizes this, hence the race specific macro gimmicks. And the macro gimmicks are themselves less intuitive than SBS.
What skill ceiling, SC1 has been around for 10 years and it has evolved constantly that has nothing to do with the game mechanics; such as changing maps and metagame strategey changes
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On February 19 2009 09:36 fusionsdf wrote:
MBS is roughly as intuitive as SBS (this is based in lart part on the players expectations, which of the two is more intuitive).
But thats not what I'm arguing. MBS even if intuitive, lowers the skill ceiling of competive play. Blizzard realizes this, hence the race specific macro gimmicks. And the macro gimmicks are themselves less intuitive than SBS.
In other words:
SBS (Intuitive, Raises skill ceiling)
MBS (Intuitive, Lowers skill ceiling) + macro gimmicks (Not as intuitive, Raises skill ceiling)
I really couldn't find a better word than gimmicks, so I hope people actually read this post and not just pick it apart because of a specific word I used
While it's true that it's not as intuitive, I really think you're blowing this issue way out of proportion.
Like I said earlier, there is nothing overly complicated about casting an AoE to make your worker go faster. All you have to do is read a simple tooltip, and BAM, you know how to use the ability. If this obstacle was really as hard as you're making it out to be, then casuals would never play RTSs. I'm sorry, but I just can't see how a newbie would have any sort of difficulty with these macro mechanics that wouldn't be solved just by playing the game, especially since Blizzard confirmed that the gas timing mechanic is out.
Heck, Warcraft 3 was much more complicated than this, and it has a huge casual playerbase.
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On February 19 2009 09:45 Spawkuring wrote:
Heck, DOTA was much more complicated than this, and it has a huge casual playerbase.
Fixed
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This is a great Q&A, it has made em very excited for the game. They have added a lot of very interesting mechanics to the game that should make for a large number of interesting strategies and cool timing attacks.
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can multiple dark pylons be selected and hotkeyed and does smart casting apply to them?
if so observer/overseer sniping is gonna be game ending. instant cloak for your entire army that they can do nothing about but run away from?
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On February 19 2009 10:03 IdrA wrote:
can multiple dark pylons be selected and hotkeyed and does smart casting apply to them?
if so observer/overseer sniping is gonna be game ending. instant cloak for your entire army that they can do nothing about but run away from?
easily fixed by limiting range. Besides, it would mean that they need a Pylon for each unit which mean we would be in late game and at that point you would have detection. Not to mention that the duration of the cloak is very limited.
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ya i just re read it, i was assuming it was aoe for some reason
if its single unit then its no big deal.
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Your argument isn't totally unfounded:
Single unit, yes but it could have charges for more than one unit, like it can contain max 300 energy and cloaking one unit for 10 seconds only takes 100 energy. So potential abuse is possible. But we will see.
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nah, to have any army size significant enough to whipe them out or do game ending damage it would take a long time to cloak every unit, or even a significant part of it. it becomes no worse than getting an observer scourged when trying to break a lurker contain or something, its a pain in the ass and it could cost you quite a bit, but its not unproportional to the mistake you make by losing an important unit.
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Information about the DarkPylon:
Dark Pylon has 200 energy and starts with 50 energy
Proton Charge costs 50 energy and lasts for 30 seconds.
Null Shied costs 50 energy. No cool time, as long as you have enough energy, you can use this ability.
Argus Link drains 75 energy per second from the Dark Pylon.
They also have a cast range. so prolly hard to abuse.
EDIT:
Dark Pylon has 200 Life and 100 Shieds, but Pylon has 200/200 Life/Shields.
So Dark Pylon can be destroyed little bit easier than Pylon by enemy units.
Source: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=15211803043&sid=3000&pageNo=5
Just read the damn BattleNet Forums, the blues are on a Posting spree regarding the Macro mechanincs:
Cydra, can you tell us how the Calldown supply ability actually works?
1)How much does it cost?
2)How much supply does it grant?
3)Can depots that have additional supply called down still drop into the ground?
4) Is the extra supply permanent or temporary?!
1. Calldown Extra Supplies costs 50 energy.
2. Extra Supplies increases the supply output by 2.
3. You can still lower/raise your Supply Depot after calldown Extra Supplies on it.
4. It is permanent and looks different from the Supply Depot, which means you'd better take out this Depot first when you attacking the enemy Terran base. 
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Blizzard has found a REALLY good solution to the issue of "How can we cater to both the casual fans AND the competitive scene?" At least in theory.
Though I'm confident that when the final product is out, it will be amazing. I've never been disappointed by Blizzard before.
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yea the dark pylon seems like it's only good for if you're wanting to send a probe out to expand and you don't want your opponent to see the probe leaving or something like that
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now if only they would make the thor/mothership/corrupter less stupid...
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I think everything looks great, but I don't like the name "Mule". Hopefully they think up something better!
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i dont know if theyve explained it but its an acronym for something, the blue guys always write MULEs when they talk about it
does sound pretty retarded though
actually only cydra caps it like that, karune doesnt
who knows
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EPT
