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As for now it is olny in korean version, I will update OP as soon as english translation comes out.
Probably the best batch in a long while, infestor art, several unit model redesigns and an unique macro mechanic for each race. This is sick! :D
+ Show Spoiler +Chat with Devs: Art Updates The StarCraft art team have been making massive updates to the Zerg faction, adding various new animations and improving even further on the textures of Zerg units and buildings. A picture is a thousand words so check out the updates for yourself! Zerg Drone (Before/After) http://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/UpdatedDrone.jpgZerg Overlord (Before/After) http://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/UpdatedOverlord.jpgZerg Hydralisk (Before/After) http://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/UpdatedHydralisk.jpgZerg Overseer (Before/After) http://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/UpdatedOverseer.jpgZerg Baneling (Before/After) http://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/UpdatedBaneling.jpgThroughout the development process, the team is constantly reiterating and improving on the game in every way. As mentioned before, the Infestor too is getting a makeover, becoming much creepier and intimidating – you definitely don’t want to end up helpless at the will of this thing! Zerg Infestor Concept Art http://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/InfesterArt.jpgThe StarCraft 2 team has made a number of changes in each of the races as the game gets closer to Beta. These are some of the new weapons and abilities that are currently being tested on the battlefield. Protoss Dark Pylon Long used only by the Dark Templar of Shakuras, the Dark Pylon is now used by all as the Protoss war for survival becomes more desperate. In addition to providing supply and giving power to nearby Protoss structures, the Dark Pylon has several unique abilities that require energy to use. Proton Charge: an area-of-effect ability that gives all targeted Probes additional charge for their Proton-Cutters. Probes that have an additional charge gather additional minerals per trip when collecting resources. The Proton Charge lasts only a short time before dissipating. Null Shield: a single-target ability that causes a Protoss Shield to shimmer and warp, cloaking the targeted Protoss unit. The Null Shield lasts only a short time. Argus Link: a single-target ability that transfers energy from the Dark Pylon to any energy-using Protoss unit. Screenshot: Proton Charge in Action http://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/PROTOSS_DroneTarget.jpghttp://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/PROTOSS_DroneHarvest.jpgTerran Orbital Command The Terrans rely not only on the troops they can train on the battlefield but also on troops called from deep space. The Orbital Command allows the Terrans to make use of their orbital assets to support their fight on the ground. As an upgrade to the Command Center the Orbital Command can create SCVs and serves as a drop location for collected resources. In addition it has several abilities that require energy. Calldown Mule: sends a single automated mining robot by drop-pod that assists SCVs in collecting resources by working around current SCV mining operations. Unfortunately the Mule is still in the prototype phase and has a limited battery supply (timed life). Calldown Extra Supplies: sends additional supplies to a targeted Supply Depot. Generally used by Terran commanders only in an emergency to allow them to support additional troops. Scanner Sweep: using a satellite in high-orbit, the Terrans reveal a large area anywhere on the map and detect all cloaked units within the target area. Screenshot: Mules Everywhere! http://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/TERRAN_Mules.jpghttp://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/TERRAN_MuleVariations.jpgZerg Queen The Zerg Queen has continued to evolve over the last few months. She is a fierce defender of the Zerg Hatcheries and can often be found in small groups defending the larger Zerg infestations. In addition to defending her Hatchery from ground and air threats, the Queen has several special abilities that require energy to use. Build Creep Tumor: with a mighty push from her bowels, the Queen creates a cluster of organic tumors that generate additional creep. In recent months the Zerg have mutated to move more quickly on creep, making this an important function for the Queen. Spawn Larva: by injecting Queen ichor into a Hatchery, Lair or Hive the Queen can cause the Zerg structure to undergo a startling metamorphosis. The Hatchery starts to throb and green sacks swell up on the structure. Eventually four additional larva burst out of the Hatchery and land next to whatever larva are already wriggling around nearby. While a Hatchery hosts more than 3 larva, the Hatchery will not spawn additional larva, until that number drops below 3. Razor Plague: with a great breath the queen exhales a cloud of tiny Zerg creatures that create a vast swarm nearby. These creatures attack all enemy creatures within their swarm, doing additional damage to biological targets. What makes it worse is the Zerg player can control the swarm, moving it around to attack whatever enemies he wishes until the swarm becomes exhausted and dissipates. Screenshot: Incoming Swarm! http://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/ZERG_TumorLarvae.jpghttp://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/ZERG_MutaHatch.jpghttp://www.battle.net/images/misc/09-02/ZERG_Attack.jpg---StarCraft II Q&A Batch 49--- 1) I am very curious... previously, SCVs, Drones, Probes, Vultures, Archons, and Dark Archons hovered above the ground so they were not hit by mines. My question is simple: Are there any hovering units in Starcraft 2? If there are, can they hover over shallow water? -Ancientdefender (Battle.net) If Spider Mines stay in the game, then there will be hovering units. Shallow waters are currently just a visual effect and will not ‘play’ differently. 2) How does the Mutalisk attack work in StarCraft II, what defines its bouncing pattern? Is it random or not? If not, what is the criteria that defines how it bounces? -Kain175 (Battle.net) Regardless of the position of the Mutalisk, when its attack hits a target, it will then acquire the next target based on proximity to the first target. The attack will always bounce to the next closest target. 3) Is it possible to toggle off Multiple Building Selection (MBS)? No. 4) Balancing of 2v2 team play: Roaches + Medivac are too over powered for 2v2 team play unit combinations? The regeneration rate of the Roaches and the healing of the Medivac will not stack upon each other. 5) What is a good counter for Zerg against Marines, which are upgraded from the original StarCraft? Zerg actually have a few options that are quite effective. Zerglings can catch Marines out in the open and surround them relatively easily. Secondly, Banelings with the burrow ability are also very effective. There is nothing more gratifying than watching a group of Marines walk over a burrowed Baneling. When it unburrows – BOOM! Another counter that can be used are Roaches with burrow. A player can burrow a Roach at low health for it to regenerate back to full health in seconds, at which point it can unburrow and begin attacking the Marines again. In late game, Infestor’s with their fungal scourge ability, which causes a biological unit to take damage over time until the unit explodes and does an area of effect damage, decimating groups of Marines easily if the opponent is not fast to react. Additionally, Ultralisks with their new cleave attack as well as 200 more hit points from the original StarCraft also make them an excellent counter to massed Marines. 6) How do you keep the Baneling from exploding on targets that you don’t want them to hit? The Baneling now has an ‘attack building’ ability now which allows players to have more control over what the Baneling attacks. Players no longer need to worry about Banelings accidentally exploding on a building when they actually wanted it to hit a unit. ---End of Transmission---
Here are some questions answered by Karune:
+ Show Spoiler + Q u o t e: A few questions: - How does one construct a dark pylon? Is it a separate, more expensive replacement for the original pylons or an upgrade? The Dark Pylon currently costs 150 minerals (50 more than normal Pylon) and has the Gateway as the prerequisite building. This of course is all subject to change while more balance testing is occuring.
Q u o t e: - I assume the orbital command is now a replacement of the surveillance center? Does that mean people who opt to upgrade their CC's to a planetary fortress are no longer able to beneft from these new features, even without the use of salvage? Yes the Orbital Command is what the Surveillance Center used to be. If you build a Planetary Fortress you will not be able to use these new features, but your command center will be upgraded to Armor 3 and have a Ibiks Laser that does 40 splash damage with a 6 range. These stats are of course all subject to change through balance testing. Q u o t e: I don't suppose Proton Charge would stack, hm? Nope they don't stack, but if casted again, it will renew the duration of the ability. Q u o t e: Some more questions: 1. The new infestor (pure awesomeness BTW), resembles the reaver in shape and looks rather slow. Is it super slow? Can you tell us anything about its speed? The Infestor will still be relatively slow, though they have been sped up a bit from when you guys last saw it. Q u o t e: 2. In 1 screen shot there are 15 eggs hatching. We know the hatchery can make 3, then the queen can make the hatchery add 4 more. So in this shot, did the the Queen use her ability multiple times in quick succession or would she have to wait until the firs 7 hatch before she can use it again? I guess what I am asking is if the hatchery can only spit out 4 extra larva at a time or if you can tell it to do it 4 times and have it spit out 16 larva?
After the original 3 larva, each Hatchery can only be spawning 4 larva at a time. The ability cannot be used again on that Hatchery until those 4 larva have spawned.
Q u o t e: 3. The mules help the terrans by essentially being SCV's that mine fast right? Do they help the other SCV's mine faster as well? Can they build things? Do they cost supply since they are only there for a while? When they "run out of battery" do they shut down until you "recharge" them or do they explode and disappear forever? Mules will not help other SCVs mine faster. They will also not be able to build anything, but will be able to repair buildings and units. Furthermore, they will not cost supply. Multiple Mules can be dropped at any given time as long as you have sufficient energy available. When the Mules run out of battery, they will not be able to be recharged, and new Mules will need to be dropped. Q u o t e: 4. Is the fungal infestation a long range attack (like parasite and spawn broodling were) or does he have to be rather close?
It will be a ranged ability. This is one of my favorite abilities, it really wrecks mass Marines which are quite a force to be reckoned with at the moment with Medivac support. Q u o t e: A few more questions: - Can the mule defend itself?
Yes. It currently has the same attack value as a SCV. Q u o t e: - Can the drop pod be placed anywhere with line-of-sight, leading to the mule being used as a scout?
Yes, this can be quite helpful in some circumstances. Originally, each drop ship spawned 3 Mules, but it became a bit too advantageous in scouting 3 places at once. Q u o t e: - Does razor swarm damage both ground and air? What about friendlies?
It does currently damage both ground and air, but not friendly units. Q u o t e: - Can null shield be cast on non-Protoss allies?
Currently, yes.
Yes, this also means cloaked Siege Tanks are possible... 
Nonetheless, remember all things are still subject to balance. Q u o t e: The Dark Pylon and Queen are tier 1 tech. IIRC the Surveillance Station required the Shadow Ops to be built (making it tier 2), is this still true of the Orbital Command?
The Orbital Command requires a Barracks first to be built. The Planetary Fortress requires an Engineering Bay first to be built.
Another batch of questions answered ;d
+ Show Spoiler + Q u o t e: With the queen you can build up larva. Say you don't have a tech building up yet but you want a ton of that units, you build up larva (you can see 15 in that screen shot--that's 5 hatcheries!), then when tech finishes, you get a ton of that high level unit. Also, mutant larva hatch faster. /answered These are no longer 'mutant larva' so they will not hatch faster, but everything else is correct  Q u o t e: Is there anything that would prevent you from offensively dropping mules in the thick of battle? (For example it *might* be useful to drop near units that would then cause things like siege tanks to attack them and while ultimately leading to a very short lifespan for the mule, could lead to splashing a player's own units with damage) This is theoretically possible, but the animation of the drop pod that hits the ground is a bit long (roughly 5-10 seconds), so it isn't like an instant drop. Q u o t e:  /misses mutant larva...here's hoping they come back in beta! Also, Karune, does that then mean that these larva do not cost supply? If that is the case then another advantage over a hatchery is if you mess up and forget to build enough ovies (or you just had a bunch of ovies get sniped), then instead of having to wait for more ovies, you can build mutant larva and not lose unit making time in the end. They do not cost supply, they are just normal larva. The concept of Mutant Larva with timed life seemed more tedious and much harder to grasp in gameplay than the current reincarnation, which has definitely sat much better with the team and testers. Q u o t e: 1) Was the new infestor art looking so much like a Reaver done on purpose? Maybe a joke to all the guys asking to put the reaver back?
The Infestor has a completely new model different than the Reaver, but does coincidentally have the same shape as a Reaver. Don't forget, Reavers will still be seen in single player as well as the map editor. Q u o t e: 2) Terran and protoss now have abilities to both increase they're income temporarily (mules + dark pylon) as well as abilities to increase they're offensive production (reactor + warp gates). Zergs only have a production ability (mutate larvae). Are zergs getting something to fill the temporary income role? Or is the mutate larvae supposed to just pump drones to make up for that? Being able to spawn additional larva can potentially help Zerg production quite a bit actually. Prior, when a Zerg player hatched offensive units, they were always sacrificing the creation of more drones. This ability allows more bandwidth to create even more offensive units for a big push, build more balanced with more drones and additional units, or double up on the teching effort with all drones. There are a lot of options to play with that will surely inspire many new strategies. Q u o t e: 1) How far in tech is the dark pylon cloak?
All 3 abilities are available right when the Dark Pylon is created. Q u o t e: 2) Can dark pylons be used as a warp-in end that gives energy to your HT's? Sneaking a cloacked probe and placing a pylon in the back of the enemy base for warp-ins and hidden cannons sounds like fun ^^
Yup, everything a Pylon can do, a Dark Pylon can do better but of course at a cost. Q u o t e: Are queens still unique? What about motherships? What tier are the lurkers? Are they still late-game units? Are hydralisks still better anti-air than anti-ground? What are their damage stats? Have a nice day, by the way Thanks for the huge attention you've been giving us today! 1) Neither are unique.
2) Lurkers are tier 3. The Lurker Den requires a Hive. Banelings are much better for earlier AoE, and Lurkers are a good siege type unit in addition to its previous uses. They have a range of 9 which outranges Protoss cannons and have an attack of 15 + 15 to armored (including buildings).
3) Hydralisks are still slightly better against air, with ground to air attack stats of 10 + 6 armored and ground to ground attack stats of 10, both with range 6.
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Germany2896 Posts
The updated drone looks mean
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I hope they get rid of the gas mechanic now and improve their new mechanic(s) based on my/FA's Mineral Mechanic and/or ArcherofAiur's mechanic (the one with racially unique traits).
Also there's no need for any additional buildings or units (Dark Pylon/Mule) - all they need is giving the ability/toggle to the main buildings of each race and make this an AoE kinda thing like this:
http://www.battlenet.co.kr/images/misc/09-02/ss_1/PROTOSS_DroneTarget.jpg
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LOL Protoss AOE spells, Drop Pods...What is this, another one of ArcherofAiur's crazy Thesis?
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Where is Mr.Hoon when you need him? :D
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On February 18 2009 22:46 Archerofaiur wrote:LOL Protoss AOE spells, Drop Pods...What is this, another one of ArcherofAiur's crazy Thesis?
^_________^
Apparently the ESL guy was right. ^^
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
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ooh.. the zerg looks more... zerglike 
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On February 18 2009 22:54 MrHoon wrote:
hold on guys Im on it
Thanks, MrHoon. You are awesome.
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On February 18 2009 22:50 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2009 22:46 Archerofaiur wrote:LOL Protoss AOE spells, Drop Pods...What is this, another one of ArcherofAiur's crazy Thesis? ^_________^ Apparently the ESL guy was right. ^^
What ESL guy!
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Me likes the new infester art. The old ones looked like clowns imho.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Dark Pylon
Blah blah Dark Templar Lore. This building allows you several skills for units (upgraded Pylon)
Proton Charge
Makes mining minerals faster by increasing the probe's proton cutter. This ability uses energy of the dark pylon. This is for a short time and allows economic advantage. Null Shield
Basically a defense matrix which is targetable. Argus Connection (???)
Exchanges mana with another unit which uses mana
------------------------------
Orbital command
Upgraded CC. Also has energy
Calldown Mule
Calls down some scv kind of unit. Has duration. I guess it can mine stuff Calldown Extra supplies
Gives you extra supplies (lool). Scanner Sweep
-----------------------------
Zerg Queen
same
Creep Tumor
Spawn Larva
You 1 extra larva from a hatchery NO! It gives More larvaes! It can give 4
Razor Plague
You make swarms of babies. Think of it as a dark swarm, but instead of ranged attacks missing, everything inside the cloud gets damaged.
Community Q&A
Workers and archons don't trigger mines. Will this be the same for SC2?
- Yes it will remain the same
How do the mutalisk attacks bounce in SC2? Is it like SC1 where it will bounce at a designated location or will it be totally random?
- Regardless of the location of the mutalisk, it will now bounce to the 3 closest units.
kan i disble mbs plzzz?
- No.
In 2v2, dont you think roaches + Medivacs will be a very overpowering strat?
- Roach regeneration does not stack with medivac healing.
The Marine is now much much stronger in SC2 than SC1. How can a zerg player fight against this?
- Zerg players can do the following to defeat marines. You can fight in a large area using zerglings. Burrow Banelings is another great way to destroy Marines. As long as it is a wide area zerg players won't have a hard time flanking marines, and you will hear hundreds of "UHDAUHJSA" screams from marines. You can also mix roaches with your army to do this easily.
Another great way to destroy marines are the infestors. One "Fungal Scourge" can destroy a squad of marines in an instant. If your opponent does not react fast enough, most of their army will be dead. Also cleave from an ultralisks destroy marines rather quickly.
Ground Suicide units have a habit of having the worst AI possible. How do I stop my banelings from constantly prioritizing buildings first rather than units?
- Banelings now have a skill called "Explode on Buildings." Now to target buildings you have to use the skill instead of using the attack command.
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woah left looks so cool, i hope its updated one.
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On February 18 2009 23:10 Too_MuchZerg wrote:woah left looks so cool, i hope its updated one.
What.
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On February 18 2009 23:06 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2009 22:50 maybenexttime wrote:On February 18 2009 22:46 Archerofaiur wrote:LOL Protoss AOE spells, Drop Pods...What is this, another one of ArcherofAiur's crazy Thesis? ^_________^ Apparently the ESL guy was right. ^^ What ESL guy!
There was this guy at SCLegacy who said he was at ESL (the one in Vienna or something) and was talking about those new macro mechanics. Unless I'm getting confused. ;p
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The old drone model (left one) is so cute :D I hope it will be implemented in the map editor ;d
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Sweet! more dark colored zerg units that blend in the color of the creep and makes the zerg race an eye sore!
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On February 18 2009 23:08 MrHoon wrote:
Razor Plague
You make swarms of babies. Think of it as a dark swarm, but instead of ranged attacks missing, everything inside the cloud gets damaged.
Whoa, Z gets their own psi-storm? Sounds like revenge for getting stormed all these years.
edit: and on a flying caster, too!
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
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No surprise here, Terran again got the worst abilities.
Old scanner presented like some new mechanic and some lame calldown which only gives you more supply? What?? Are you fuc*ing kidding me Blizzard? That's the best you can think of?
They probably "invented" these mechanic during a lunch break.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Protoss one is cool though
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I like every updated model except for the baneling, the model was perfect.
Updated infestor art looks great though. :D
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On February 18 2009 23:24 adelarge wrote:
No surprise here, Terran again got the worst abilities.
Old scanner presented like some new mechanic and some lame calldown which only gives you more supply? What?? Are you fuc*ing kidding me Blizzard? That's the best you can think of?
They probably "invented" these mechanic during a lunch break.
from what i saw on google translate (lol) the 'mules', as i guess they're called, require supply and they forsaw supply issues so that mechanic is designed to deal with it i guess
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kan i disble mbs plzzz?
- No.
fuck -_-
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so with the zerg mechanic you can spawn an extra larvae up to 4? does he mention how it works with unused larvae?
for example 1 unused larva and 2 are spawning, would you be able to spawn 3 more or just 1
edit- oh
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On February 18 2009 23:31 wrags wrote:
so with the zerg mechanic you can spawn an extra larvae up to 4? does he mention how it works with unused larvae?
for example 1 unused larva and 2 are spawning, would you be able to spawn 3 more or just 1
edit- oh
yeah it gives 4 larvaes (which is amazing imo)
It doesn't override your original larvae so you can have many many larvaes running around
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On February 18 2009 23:25 MrHoon wrote:
Protoss one is cool though
Yeah, the Protoss ones are really interesting. Which really drives me crazy. Protoss already has the most cool mechanic in the game, warp-in. I expected Blizzard will come with something similar cool for Terran...and what happened? They gave Protoss more interesting mechanics and spit in the face of almost every Terran player with their ones.
Seriously, the mana recharge was at first Terran ability, the Starbase had this. What will be next?
It's like they are constantly trying to make the Protoss more and more interesting but no overpowered...whereas the Terran more and more dull and boring but no underpowered.
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The Zerglings still look stupid PLEASE get rid of those hind legs/wings that makes them look like crickets.
Everything else is moving on alright. Eventually they'll make it decent.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 18 2009 23:30 Itachii wrote:
kan i disble mbs plzzz?
- No.
fuck -_-
Been quite obvious since 2007 ;p
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I love all the art changes, they were very necessary to make the game NOT look like Warcraft 3!
+ Show Spoiler +WHY THE FUCK DOES ZERGLING STILL HAVE FUCKING WINGS GOD DAMMIT WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON WITH THAT BLIZZARD!?!?!
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
wow am I the only one who likes the wing change?
I think it looks cool
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On February 18 2009 23:42 Chuiu wrote:I love all the art changes, they were very necessary to make the game NOT look like Warcraft 3! + Show Spoiler +WHY THE FUCK DOES ZERGLING STILL HAVE FUCKING WINGS GOD DAMMIT WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON WITH THAT BLIZZARD!?!?!
In the next patch of SCII, zerglings will be able to fly and morph into scourge.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I would love to see zerglings morphing into scourges
without the prices being jacked up
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looks more like moving volcano...
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i knew it
head of blizzard is a protoss player
buncha nerds denying it all these years
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On February 18 2009 23:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2009 23:30 Itachii wrote:
kan i disble mbs plzzz?
- No.
fuck -_- Been quite obvious since 2007 ;p
I was hoping that they would add this... oh well, till the next Q&A !
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WOW zerg look really creepy and slimey, So the best make-over!
Overseers are looking into my soul!!
LOL mules look gay HAHAHAHAHAHAH !!! nice big target!!!
I CAN'T WAIT ANYMORE!!!! GIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEE!!!!
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The detail also looks amazing I know its a HD jpeg but damn... Look at the doodads!!
Ultrafine leaves on the palm trees. Soooo sexy.
Mutas also look as unaerodynamic as ever. LOL
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On February 18 2009 23:22 jingXD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2009 23:08 MrHoon wrote:
Razor Plague
You make swarms of babies. Think of it as a dark swarm, but instead of ranged attacks missing, everything inside the cloud gets damaged.
Whoa, Z gets their own psi-storm? Sounds like revenge for getting stormed all these years. edit: and on a flying caster, too!
Queen isn't the old flying caster. The Queen is now a ground base defender.
And I must say that I don't like how this Queen is turning more and more into a hero unit. We want it to be able to assist your units, not be exactly like the Crypt Lord in Warcraft3...
I think the Queen should be part of some specific strategies you go for, not a staple unit that you'll be needing in every single game since it can do everything. It just seems to be too well rounded right now, which isn't right for Zerg since they are great at having units that do very specific tasks that don't overlap.
I think making it a macro unit is actually a pretty good idea. Let it build some defensive structures, repair them, make larva (or make mutant larva, that was a great concept), help your drones mine faster etc... That way, in many early aggressive builds she won't be required, but if you're going for a long game or a timing push you had better make her pretty quickly.
Then again that's just my opinion, and i'm sure that by adding Razor plague blizzard is going somewhere.
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The first Q&A I really find useful and awesome.
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ahn,i would like to know how these mechanics allow you to macro with screen changes, i mean, u can still summon the big scvs remotely by hotkeying the cc's and calling them
it seems confuse rly
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graphics updates for zerg look really good, just when i gave up hope that they might look awesome
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Zerg graphical updates were definitely needed. I'm very glad Blizzard is starting to make this game look more appealing to adults and not look like Barney meets Starcraft.
GJ Blizzard.
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On February 19 2009 00:45 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote:
ahn,i would like to know how these mechanics allow you to macro with screen changes, i mean, u can still summon the big scvs remotely by hotkeying the cc's and calling them
it seems confuse rly
it looks like the dark pylon ability will be a targeted aoe so that you have to go back and put it on your probes, also i guess the 'd-matrix' ability will be to protect probes from colossi or ghosts or something
i'm guessing you can't rally terran mules so you would need to assign them as well as adjust your supply accordingly with the temp supply buff
they all appear to be an attempt to take the place of automine
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well, we followed blizzard so far and it never let us astray
they will rule haha
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new models really look great
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Dont you think these changes are made to somewhat balance this? Maybe the Terrans were holding the sharper knife before the changes?
Anyways I must say sc2 looks very promising now, the macro mechanics seems pretty different from eachother.
Also, I dont thik the "get more supply" thing the CC does seems to be that of a letdown that everyone implies. Myself being a somewhat novice player in the competitive scene, I tend to miss out supply buildings or get dropped and get my pylons or whatever killed.
But now: Ding! And you will have a small or big amount of temporary supply which wont stop you from keep producing units while you mass depods etc.
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Netherlands19130 Posts
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD that new zerg stuff looks AMAZING.
I'm just BAFFLED by how good it is. Seriously that new Infestor art is so so good, if they altered the ingame model as well.... DROOOOOLLL!!!!!!!!!!!
*MAD FANBOISM*
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On February 18 2009 23:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2009 23:30 Itachii wrote:
kan i disble mbs plzzz?
- No.
fuck -_- Been quite obvious since 2007 ;p
yeah but they were at least pretending the might get rid of it
I had some hope
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On February 19 2009 02:17 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2009 23:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:On February 18 2009 23:30 Itachii wrote:
kan i disble mbs plzzz?
- No.
fuck -_- Been quite obvious since 2007 ;p yeah but they were at least pretending the might get rid of it I had some hope
That was so brutal and blunt, is that really the 100% exact translation?
Damn, I was still having dreams about them dropping mbs t-t
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love the new zerg artwork. Looks much more zergy
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On February 19 2009 02:41 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 02:17 fusionsdf wrote:On February 18 2009 23:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:On February 18 2009 23:30 Itachii wrote:
kan i disble mbs plzzz?
- No.
fuck -_- Been quite obvious since 2007 ;p yeah but they were at least pretending the might get rid of it I had some hope That was so brutal and blunt, is that really the 100% exact translation? Damn, I was still having dreams about them dropping mbs t-t
If something comes true it is no longer a dream ;d
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On February 18 2009 23:08 MrHoon wrote:Orbital commandUpgraded CC. Also has energy Calldown Mule Calls down some scv kind of unit. Has duration. I guess it can mine stuff Calldown Extra supplies Gives you extra supplies (lool). Scanner Sweep
I demand more information on the mule.
Zerg Queensame Creep Tumor Spawn Larva You 1 extra larva from a hatchery NO! It gives More larvaes! It can give 4
Razor Plague You make swarms of babies. Think of it as a dark swarm, but instead of ranged attacks missing, everything inside the cloud gets damaged.
I'msorrywut?
Another great way to destroy marines are the infestors. One "Fungal Scourge" can destroy a squad of marines in an instant. If your opponent does not react fast enough, most of their army will be dead. Also cleave from an ultralisks destroy marines rather quickly.
Ground Suicide units have a habit of having the worst AI possible. How do I stop my banelings from constantly prioritizing buildings first rather than units?
- Banelings now have a skill called "Explode on Buildings." Now to target buildings you have to use the skill instead of using the attack command.
I demand more information on the fungal scourge. :p And what of the baneling AI? Why a new skill when you could just have them prioritize units?
Love the look of the spore colonies and the infestor art. However I think the new drone looks too evil, not like a mindless drone, and with boxing gloves on :3
Edit: Uhm, wait wait, why am I seeing a nydus canal-esque building in that zerg base? Why would Blizzard get rid of the badass Tremors worm? And is that Thor in the bottom left corner really a Thor, is it looking funny because of perspective, or did they actually cut it's entire bottom half off?
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They still need to fix tank, tank looks way inferior to SC tank.
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If Fungal Scourge is Fungal Infestation from the Blizzcon demo, then it paralyzes a unit and does damage until it dies, and when it dies, it releases an explosion that damages all units nearby it.
If you target a Marine surrounded in a clump of Marines with Fungal Infestation, when it explodes it'll take all the other Marines out in a pretty decent radius around it.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On February 19 2009 02:41 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 02:17 fusionsdf wrote:On February 18 2009 23:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:On February 18 2009 23:30 Itachii wrote:
kan i disble mbs plzzz?
- No.
fuck -_- Been quite obvious since 2007 ;p yeah but they were at least pretending the might get rid of it I had some hope That was so brutal and blunt, is that really the 100% exact translation? Damn, I was still having dreams about them dropping mbs t-t
exact translation is
Q: Will there ever be a feature to disable MBS?
A: Never.
edit: and it seems someone did a much more thorough translation on the OP
thanks to him!
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Wow. That was the best batch period. The new art looks great (the Infestor looks amazing) and it sounds like they have added some more macro to the game (the dark pylon proton charge). I can't wait to see the game in beta.
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I love how fungal spore sounds. It infects one unit, then when he dies, he explodes doing AOE damage. Sounds very nice against grouped marines.
It is similar in some ways to irradiate but with its own twist.
EDIT: Its like irradiate meets corpse explosion (my favorite D2 skill)
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Lol reavers back into the game!
As for the new zerg, it's just the old zerg with pixel shaders. For the better, I wonder how much horsepower do we need for our zerg to look just as good.
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On February 19 2009 03:52 BluzMan wrote:
Lol reavers back into the game!
As for the new zerg, it's just the old zerg with pixel shaders. For the better, I wonder how much horsepower do we need for our zerg to look just as good.
Reavers Where!>!>!?!?!
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I like the old zerg models more. They were more cartoony and flavorful, and the new ones just seem kind of too serious.
The Terran mule sounds cool though (obviously them trying to add some macro).
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i think they saved information to draw attention from dow2 which was released today i believe
they can't really keep spam releasing games to compete so they'll just save up a bunch of good info and then drop a bomb around the release date of something, i expect they'll do the same with beta release
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On February 19 2009 03:57 Ziph wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 03:52 BluzMan wrote:
Lol reavers back into the game!
As for the new zerg, it's just the old zerg with pixel shaders. For the better, I wonder how much horsepower do we need for our zerg to look just as good. Reavers Where!>!>!?!?!
They are now zerg, look at the artwork.
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they should make queen = hatch, since they are giving the queen "hatch" abilities.
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every fucking unit is gonna have some stupid ability just like cnc3 
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On February 19 2009 04:10 Teejing wrote:
they should make queen = hatch, since they are giving the queen "hatch" abilities.
What?
On February 19 2009 04:13 ToT)OjKa( wrote:every fucking unit is gonna have some stupid ability just like cnc3
I don't see any units getting abilities which didn't already got one and they added the dark pylon, overall this thing makes no difference at all.
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Great move by Blizzard. Adding more macro by adding interesting unit abilities is much better than weirdo mechanics. That's the right way to go imo. Very well done.
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On February 19 2009 04:13 ToT)OjKa( wrote:every fucking unit is gonna have some stupid ability just like cnc3
Eh, they've only added abilities to two buildings (Dark Pylon, CC). The queen was always a caster unit even in SC1 so I don't see what the big deal is.
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On February 19 2009 03:52 BluzMan wrote:
Lol reavers back into the game!
Pretty much, and with fungal scourge they might even be the new worker line raiders :p Perhaps this was blizzard's plan all along, they gave Protoss so much new fancy, interesting stuff that they just moved the best thing from protoss BW (the reaver) over to the zerg. Reaver drops are just too exciting to leave out of the sequel.
All that's left is a sweet, interesting mechanic for Terrans and we're all set =).
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i meant making the queen the walking mode of a hatch. Zergs can be compared to ants where the all minerals/food are transported to the queen.
So my idea was tog ive the queen the ability to sit down and evolve into a hatch or make it the other way around, giving bases the ability to evolve to queens.
Everything is better than a wc3 hero for Zerg. =)
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On February 19 2009 04:27 Osmoses wrote:
All that's left is a sweet, interesting mechanic for Terrans and we're all set =).
What, you don't think being able to upgrade your supply depots is enough!?
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On February 19 2009 00:45 Kim_Hyun_Han wrote:
ahn,i would like to know how these mechanics allow you to macro with screen changes, i mean, u can still summon the big scvs remotely by hotkeying the cc's and calling them
it seems confuse rly Wrong. Mules are called from drop pods you need to click to target the location they will be built on. You can even target them offensively to act as scouts. You can call them anywhere on your LoS. Karune just said this on the bnet forum:
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=15211803043&sid=3000
Both others requires targeting as well. The queen need to target a hatcherie and the dark pylon needs to target the probes. So effectively all 3 mechanics require you to go back to your base with the screen to boost your economy.
I criticize Blizzard a lot when they do shit such as the gas mechanic. But we also have to recognize when they do something right. This time with these new macro abilities I think they hit it right on spot. Now it's just a matter of balancing around the numbers through testing.
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So the 3 race specific macro mechanics are:
1. Dark Pylons for Protoss
2. Mules for Terrans
3. Mutant larva for Zerg
One thing I notice is that the mechanics for Toss and Terran both allow the player to mine faster while the zerg mechanic only allows the player to spend minerals faster. That is really good for me, as a mediocre player who struggles to even spend all my minerals, but I wonder what effect this will have on pros for whom spending their minerals is not their limiting factor.
I am not trying to say mutant larva is bad...I love it like heck, but I wonder if it will help casual players more than competitive players?
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On February 19 2009 03:43 Savio wrote:
I love how fungal spore sounds. It infects one unit, then when he dies, he explodes doing AOE damage. Sounds very nice against grouped marines.
It is similar in some ways to irradiate but with its own twist.
EDIT: Its like irradiate meets corpse explosion (my favorite D2 skill)
There's a mercenary hero ability (Soul Burn IIRC) in WarCraft III that is the same thing.
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OP updated with several Karune answers from the battle.net forum
huh quite a lot ;D
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posted this in another thread but it belongs here:
I DO think that this zerg reaver will be used to raid mineral lines too. You drop him (or have him dig there), spit a couple of fungal infestations and if your opponent doesn't hightail his workers out fast, BOOM.
I always wanted a zerg reaver. I think kerrigan looked at the reaver hosing all her minions and said, "hmmmmMMMm".
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On February 19 2009 04:46 Tritanis wrote:
OP updated with several Karune answers from the battle.net forum
huh quite a lot ;D
Answered some of mine. WOOT. I love getting blue responses.
Actually, now is the best time to ask. Karune is answering every single question in that thread.
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On February 19 2009 04:45 Savio wrote:
So the 3 race specific macro mechanics are:
1. Dark Pylons for Protoss
2. Mules for Terrans
3. Mutant larva for Zerg
One thing I notice is that the mechanics for Toss and Terran both allow the player to mine faster while the zerg mechanic only allows the player to spend minerals faster. That is really good for me, as a mediocre player who struggles to even spend all my minerals, but I wonder what effect this will have on pros for whom spending their minerals is not their limiting factor.
I am not trying to say mutant larva is bad...I love it like heck, but I wonder if it will help casual players more than competitive players? Good point, but toss/terran do have mechanics to build faster. Reactor + extra supply drop pod could be used once you already have too much miners. Toss have warp gates which builds faster.
And the larvae could be used to boost your economy by building more drones. It's not the same as converting energy to money like the others can but it does boosts your eco later on. Today good zergs tend to keep their drone count low because they're busy making the best off their larvae to pump offensive units fast. With extra larvae you could build more economy when you already got enough hatches to build your troops.
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I like the update, but not how every race gets 1 ability, so thought-up.
Just like in WC3, Humans have militia, Orcs have burrows, Undead have shooting lair/hive, Elves have attacking trees. Dude, lets all give them 1 ability so each! Its much easier to balance. Also, lets give each race 1 big melee unit, 3 casters, 4 heroes and 2 flyers! See, making things balanced ain't so hard!
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I must say I absolutely love the new infestor art, it not looks likes its an actual evolution from the defiler. Speaking of the infestor, does anyone know if it still has its origional ability to move while burrowed, having a few of these move around, only to pop up, launch a fungal scourge, only to re-burrow and flee seems pretty intense. If no detection is around you could target the terran mineral line and potentiall take out half the workers.
I'm also liking the queens ability to produce 4 new larva. With SC1 the larva were at the same time a weakness and strenght of the zerg. They could produce faster than the other races, but their production was capped by the number of hatches available. With this, Zerg can save on hatches and instead use the queens for extra production when needed. This also helps them with having to switch betweend drones and units, just use the extra production from the Queens and you can suddenly use both. The fact they also spawn creap tumors (can the tumors still borrow?) and also have the new razor plague offensive ability and can actually attack just makes them more appealing.
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On February 19 2009 05:00 aseq wrote:
I like the update, but not how every race gets 1 ability, so thought-up.
Just like in WC3, Humans have militia, Orcs have burrows, Undead have shooting lair/hive, Elves have attacking trees. Dude, lets all give them 1 ability so each! Its much easier to balance. Also, lets give each race 1 big melee unit, 3 casters, 4 heroes and 2 flyers! See, making things balanced ain't so hard! You're right, all 3 races have units that does damage, they're so exactly the same. All races should be completely different, all zergs should have 1 hp and do no dmg and all protoss should instant kill anything that enters they're sight range. See, now they're completely different, thus much better balanced.
.... no ¬¬
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I actually think that dropping mules is a very interesting mechanic and we can't even see the many ways it could be used.
For example, lets say he has a ramp blocked off or a choke point blocked by units and you wanna break it...you drop a mule in there and force the units to move. Or drop a bunch of mules on the enemy right as you attack so they take some of the hits. Or use them as "zealot bombs" to get other tanks to kill eachother.
Who knows what the pros will find out you can do with dropped mules. It is especially powerful since it does not cost minerals or supply so there is no reason not to use it.
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Razor Plague: with a great breath the queen exhales a cloud of tiny Zerg creatures that create a vast swarm nearby. These creatures attack all enemy creatures within their swarm, doing additional damage to biological targets. What makes it worse is the Zerg player can control the swarm, moving it around to attack whatever enemies he wishes until the swarm becomes exhausted and dissipates.
wtf? Basically this means a queen is a flying all-in-1 storm drop with movable storms?
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On February 19 2009 05:12 Fontong wrote:Show nested quote +Razor Plague: with a great breath the queen exhales a cloud of tiny Zerg creatures that create a vast swarm nearby. These creatures attack all enemy creatures within their swarm, doing additional damage to biological targets. What makes it worse is the Zerg player can control the swarm, moving it around to attack whatever enemies he wishes until the swarm becomes exhausted and dissipates. wtf? Basically this means a queen is a flying all-in-1 storm drop with movable storms?
Have you not been following SC2 at all? The queen is not and has never been a flying unit in SC2.
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All the ideas really do seem good for macro, forcing players to return to their base to manage their different eco abilities, especially zerg to get the most possible units out. More importantly, they can be used in different ways, Protoss can sacrifice energy meant for probes to recharge their high temps very quickly.
how often have you seen protoss players facing down hydras or mutas and not being able to do anything because their high temps are out of energy. Instead of going for the economic advantage of faster probes, get some energy to those temps and storm away. But then you have to keep in mind that even though you might have held off the attack, your not going to be able to take advantage of your dark pylons until its own energy recharges
Zerg can obviously make whatever they wish with the extra larva, be it units or drones. Terrans im not sure about, but im sure something will be thought up. Can the mule still be used for construction? because if so you could basically scan, drop your mule, and start up a base on an island or something all without the opponent having any idea you've done anything at all.
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Mules cannot build. See the clarifications Karune made in the OP.
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On February 19 2009 05:00 aseq wrote:
I like the update, but not how every race gets 1 ability, so thought-up.
Just like in WC3, Humans have militia, Orcs have burrows, Undead have shooting lair/hive, Elves have attacking trees. Dude, lets all give them 1 ability so each! Its much easier to balance. Also, lets give each race 1 big melee unit, 3 casters, 4 heroes and 2 flyers! See, making things balanced ain't so hard!
Terran:
- Mule
- Reactor
- Salvage
- extra supplies
Protoss:
- mining bonus
- Warp-in + Warp Prism
- Psionic Matrix
Zerg:
- Creep
- extra Larvas
- Nydus network
Seems alright to me.
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All I can say is that I'm extremely happy with this batch. Easily the best one we've ever had. The zerg improvements look great, the new infestor looks awesome (see guys, Samwise IS a good artist), and the macro mechanics fulfill the requirement of players needed to go back to their base.
This game is definitely on the right track. The wait for beta is gonna be even more painful now.
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1) Dark Pylon
2) cloak a probe
3) sneak probe into enemy base
4) hide a dark pylon in his base
5) build cannons on his base
6) warp in HT's to that dark pylon
7) use the dark pylon to give energy to HT's
8) ...profit?
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On February 19 2009 04:53 Savio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 04:46 Tritanis wrote:
OP updated with several Karune answers from the battle.net forum
huh quite a lot ;D Answered some of mine. WOOT. I love getting blue responses. Actually, now is the best time to ask. Karune is answering every single question in that thread. I'm emphasizing this post because Karune just answered a few of mine questios some seconds ago. He's on it right now as we speak. Quickly everyone log on the bnet forums and ask stuff, NOW! GO!
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all thats really needed for this all to be perfect i think would be balancing the numbers, which can easily be taken care of in the beta.
I'll bring this up again because im actually curious now, does anyone know if the Infestor can still move while burrowed? I'm really liking the idea of surprise fungal scourge mineral line harrasment.
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So how do Infestors attack?
I may be switching to Zerg.
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sounds gimmickier and gimmickier. all these descriptions of "strategies" and what they might do... will all change or be obsolete in beta.
god I can't wait for beta, that's when the sweeping changes will be made
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On February 19 2009 05:35 VIB wrote:
1) Dark Pylon
2) cloak a probe
3) sneak probe into enemy base
4) hide a dark pylon in his base
5) build cannons on his base
6) warp in HT's to that dark pylon
7) use the dark pylon to give energy to HT's
8) ...profit?
yea i was kinda thinking the same thing, each 'mechanic' could either be used as low econ or high econ, zerg being the most obvious, i guess using the supply thing to skip depots/save money for some reactor build and also zealot bombing with mules
edit: although i guess you could stealth a probe without losing any of your econ unless the stealth costs a lot of mana
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On February 18 2009 23:24 adelarge wrote:
No surprise here, Terran again got the worst abilities.
Old scanner presented like some new mechanic and some lame calldown which only gives you more supply? What?? Are you fuc*ing kidding me Blizzard? That's the best you can think of?
They probably "invented" these mechanic during a lunch break.
On February 19 2009 05:32 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 05:25 Frits wrote:haha On February 18 2009 23:24 adelarge wrote:
No surprise here, Terran again got the worst abilities.
Old scanner presented like some new mechanic and some lame calldown which only gives you more supply? What?? Are you fuc*ing kidding me Blizzard? That's the best you can think of?
They probably "invented" these mechanic during a lunch break. What the fuck blizzard, how dare you overpower zerg and protoss!!! *has never played a game of sc2* I like his last comment "They probably invented these mechanic during a lunch break" I find it ironic because Pixar got the ideas for the last 10 years worth of their animations all in one sitting drinking coffee and talking, and yet this guy seems to think you have to go into some special creativity room and wear your imagination hat and stir brainwaves with a spoon to get ideas out.
rofl
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United States13896 Posts
Thank god the warcrafty look is gone! It's looking more and more like it has that SC feel. I'm even starting to feel good about how the infestor's look is evolving. Still, I'm on the fence as to all these mining gimmicks, but I'll withhold judgment.
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The Marine is now much much stronger in SC2 than SC1. How can a zerg player fight against this?
- Zerg players can do the following to defeat marines. You can fight in a large area using zerglings. Burrow Banelings is another great way to destroy Marines. As long as it is a wide area zerg players won't have a hard time flanking marines, and you will hear hundreds of "UHDAUHJSA" screams from marines. You can also mix roaches with your army to do this easily.
Another great way to destroy marines are the infestors. One "Fungal Scourge" can destroy a squad of marines in an instant. If your opponent does not react fast enough, most of their army will be dead. Also cleave from an ultralisks destroy marines rather quickly.
was this really necessary?? i mean if anything i see the marine becoming as useful in TvZ as it is right now in TvP.
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I think the macro mechanics are great! They can easily be changed if the time sink isn't great enough by decreasing the energy cost, duration of effect, and cool down.
Also, these mechanics, unlike SBS and manual mine, can be ignored by newbie players.
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United States12235 Posts
On February 19 2009 06:22 afg-warrior wrote:Show nested quote +The Marine is now much much stronger in SC2 than SC1. How can a zerg player fight against this?
- Zerg players can do the following to defeat marines. You can fight in a large area using zerglings. Burrow Banelings is another great way to destroy Marines. As long as it is a wide area zerg players won't have a hard time flanking marines, and you will hear hundreds of "UHDAUHJSA" screams from marines. You can also mix roaches with your army to do this easily.
Another great way to destroy marines are the infestors. One "Fungal Scourge" can destroy a squad of marines in an instant. If your opponent does not react fast enough, most of their army will be dead. Also cleave from an ultralisks destroy marines rather quickly. was this really necessary?? i mean if anything i see the marine becoming as useful in TvZ as it is right now in TvP.
I'm assuming your intended context is that the Marine will be relegated to "gimmick strat" status. I don't see that as the case. In fact, I believe Marines + Medivacs will be vastly superior in TvZ than they are now. The effectiveness of the Infestor AoE attack is partially dependent on the neglectfulness of the Terran player, and flanking is of limited effectiveness due to the high mobility of infantry.
Zerg will probably have to rely on something a bit more straightforward like muta/ling or perhaps roach/ling. We'll see though.
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does the Terran have any kind of mobile detection (i think one of the nighthawks buildings might but im not sure). Because if they don't burrowed banelings and Lurkers should shred any kind of pure infantry push, even with medivac support. Without mobile detection i think fast moving infantry attacks will have difficulties with all the surprises the zerg can pull.
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Karune said something really interesting in his latest reply:
Lurkers are tier 3. The Lurker Den requires a Hive. Banelings are much better for earlier AoE, and Lurkers are a good siege type unit in addition to its previous uses. They have a range of 9 which outranges Protoss cannons and have an attack of 15 + 15 to armored (including buildings).
Siege lurkers - that sounds fun :D
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On February 19 2009 06:54 lordmordor wrote:
does the Terran have any kind of mobile detection (i think one of the nighthawks buildings might but im not sure). Because if they don't burrowed banelings and Lurkers should shred any kind of pure infantry push, even with medivac support. Without mobile detection i think fast moving infantry attacks will have difficulties with all the surprises the zerg can pull.
Nighthawk is mobile detection just like Sci Vessel was
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Nighthawk
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On February 19 2009 06:54 Tritanis wrote:Karune said something really interesting in his latest reply: Show nested quote +Lurkers are tier 3. The Lurker Den requires a Hive. Banelings are much better for earlier AoE, and Lurkers are a good siege type unit in addition to its previous uses. They have a range of 9 which outranges Protoss cannons and have an attack of 15 + 15 to armored (including buildings). Siege lurkers - that sounds fun :D
Very nice. I thought that they were gonna be useless with being on later tier but this changes that.
So zerg get 2 siege units at hive: swarm guardian and lurker.
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Love the new infestor, although it looks like it's going to move reaaally slow.
And wow at all these answered questions. It's like Christmas in... february!
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the changes to the mining mechanics makes me feel like blizzard is really on the right track as far as keeping the skill ceiling in SC2 high despite automining & MBS. These changes are huge with respect to the whole MBS/automine debate, blizzard really seems to be concentrating on the right things.
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"Lurkers are tier 3. The Lurker Den requires a Hive. Banelings are much better for earlier AoE, and Lurkers are a good siege type unit in addition to its previous uses. They have a range of 9 which outranges Protoss cannons and have an attack of 15 + 15 to armored (including buildings)."
O.O
Picture how bad that will counter stalkers and how awesome lurker drops will be late game.
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damn, sc2 looks like it's going to be fun! the first thing i thought when i saw the new unit image changes were THAT'S SC! the before looks like warcraft; the after looks like evolved starcraft.
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Oh man, I'm seriously giddy right now, I want to play so bad, you have no idea, I want to play I want to play I want to PLAY!
OH! RIGHT! THE VESPENE LAUGHS THING! GOTTA FINISH THAT COMIC! BRB!!
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More info by Cydra:Dark Pylon has 200 energy.
Proton Charge costs 50 energy and lasts for 30 seconds.
Null Shied costs 50 energy. No cool time, as long as you have enough energy, you can use this ability.
Argus Link drains 75 energy per second from the Dark Pylon. 50 energy for a short cloak sounds like enough to cast it on a few zealots on a proxy gate rush.
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On February 19 2009 07:22 VIB wrote:More info by Cydra: Show nested quote +Dark Pylon has 200 energy.
Proton Charge costs 50 energy and lasts for 30 seconds.
Null Shied costs 50 energy. No cool time, as long as you have enough energy, you can use this ability.
Argus Link drains 75 energy per second from the Dark Pylon. 50 energy for a short cloak sounds like enough to cast it on a few zealots on a proxy gate rush.
You need a gateway before you can make a dark pylon and I doubt it comes with 200/200 energy.
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On February 18 2009 22:45 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope they get rid of the gas mechanic now and improve their new mechanic(s) based on my/FA's Mineral Mechanic and/or ArcherofAiur's mechanic (the one with racially unique traits).
As far as I know, the gas mechanic was removed a long time ago. Bases still have 2 geysers, but they don't deplete after 500 gas anymore.
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Love the new graphics and dark pylon~~it creates so many interesting strategies
Damm, can't wait till Beta
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THIS IS SO AWESOME i love these changes!!!!!!!! I cant wait any longer!
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I think the new zerg macro stuff is prob the best. Terran mules sounds okay, but I feel they still need a little more something(i'm not sure what :\ ). Dark pylons sound pretty lame. It's basically the exact same as the gas mechanic "go back to your base every x amount of seconds and press this button."
Besides the mining thing, dark pylons just seem like super cheap building spellcasters that you can build infinity of because their buildings. AND they only cost 50 more min? Do you have to research their spells? Seems pretty lame if you can have cloaked zeals 3 minutes into the game. I also kinda don't like that fact that HYPOTHETICALLY if a player plays the game perfectly, since you can make infinate dark pylons, a player can permanently cloak his army if he is constantly casting the cloak spell lol, even though I think that would require like 100000 APM(also prob would cost a lot making all thise pylons), even with MBS.
Just seems like there's no reason to make regular pylons if it's only 50 more mins (what's 50 mins to a protoss anyway?) for way more templar psi energy or temporarily cloaked units...
Also what, this is the 5th spellcaster for the Toss? sigh
DO THESE MECHANICS REPLACE THE DUMB GAS MECHANIC THING?
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On February 19 2009 07:26 sashkata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 07:22 VIB wrote:More info by Cydra: Dark Pylon has 200 energy.
Proton Charge costs 50 energy and lasts for 30 seconds.
Null Shied costs 50 energy. No cool time, as long as you have enough energy, you can use this ability.
Argus Link drains 75 energy per second from the Dark Pylon. 50 energy for a short cloak sounds like enough to cast it on a few zealots on a proxy gate rush. You need a gateway before you can make a dark pylon and I doubt it comes with 200/200 energy. How does any of these stop you from doing a cloak zealot rush? By the time you built 3 zealots you already have a dark pylon with some energy in it.
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On February 19 2009 07:54 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 07:26 sashkata wrote:On February 19 2009 07:22 VIB wrote:More info by Cydra: Dark Pylon has 200 energy.
Proton Charge costs 50 energy and lasts for 30 seconds.
Null Shied costs 50 energy. No cool time, as long as you have enough energy, you can use this ability.
Argus Link drains 75 energy per second from the Dark Pylon. 50 energy for a short cloak sounds like enough to cast it on a few zealots on a proxy gate rush. You need a gateway before you can make a dark pylon and I doubt it comes with 200/200 energy. How does any of these stop you from doing a cloak zealot rush? By the time you built 3 zealots you already have a dark pylon with some energy in it.
Yes, let's all make wild speculations about balance.
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On February 19 2009 07:32 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2009 22:45 maybenexttime wrote:
I hope they get rid of the gas mechanic now and improve their new mechanic(s) based on my/FA's Mineral Mechanic and/or ArcherofAiur's mechanic (the one with racially unique traits). As far as I know, the gas mechanic was removed a long time ago. Bases still have 2 geysers, but they don't deplete after 500 gas anymore.
source?
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On February 19 2009 07:54 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 07:26 sashkata wrote:On February 19 2009 07:22 VIB wrote:More info by Cydra: Dark Pylon has 200 energy.
Proton Charge costs 50 energy and lasts for 30 seconds.
Null Shied costs 50 energy. No cool time, as long as you have enough energy, you can use this ability.
Argus Link drains 75 energy per second from the Dark Pylon. 50 energy for a short cloak sounds like enough to cast it on a few zealots on a proxy gate rush. You need a gateway before you can make a dark pylon and I doubt it comes with 200/200 energy. How does any of these stop you from doing a cloak zealot rush? By the time you built 3 zealots you already have a dark pylon with some energy in it.
Please remember as well that the cloak was said to be "very short" in duration.
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United States20661 Posts
Unsure why there's both lurker and guardian now. O-O~
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On February 19 2009 07:55 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 07:54 VIB wrote:On February 19 2009 07:26 sashkata wrote:On February 19 2009 07:22 VIB wrote:More info by Cydra: Dark Pylon has 200 energy.
Proton Charge costs 50 energy and lasts for 30 seconds.
Null Shied costs 50 energy. No cool time, as long as you have enough energy, you can use this ability.
Argus Link drains 75 energy per second from the Dark Pylon. 50 energy for a short cloak sounds like enough to cast it on a few zealots on a proxy gate rush. You need a gateway before you can make a dark pylon and I doubt it comes with 200/200 energy. How does any of these stop you from doing a cloak zealot rush? By the time you built 3 zealots you already have a dark pylon with some energy in it. Yes, let's all make wild speculations about balance. Oh c'mon, it's fun :D What else could we do with this info? Speculate the release date? ><
On February 19 2009 07:59 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 07:54 VIB wrote:On February 19 2009 07:26 sashkata wrote:On February 19 2009 07:22 VIB wrote:More info by Cydra: Dark Pylon has 200 energy.
Proton Charge costs 50 energy and lasts for 30 seconds.
Null Shied costs 50 energy. No cool time, as long as you have enough energy, you can use this ability.
Argus Link drains 75 energy per second from the Dark Pylon. 50 energy for a short cloak sounds like enough to cast it on a few zealots on a proxy gate rush. You need a gateway before you can make a dark pylon and I doubt it comes with 200/200 energy. How does any of these stop you from doing a cloak zealot rush? By the time you built 3 zealots you already have a dark pylon with some energy in it. Please remember as well that the cloak was said to be "very short" in duration. I know that's what I wanted to know now. Does it last long enough for 3 zealots to kill a spawning pool? Long enough for a probe go from all the way from your base to the enemy to scout? Or just long enough to bypass the front lines?
On February 19 2009 08:00 Last Romantic wrote:
Unsure why there's both lurker and guardian now. O-O~ You cannot drop guardians and remember there is no irradiate now so guardians are proly much harder to counter than lurkers if the T don't scout it early. Main point is: guards and lurkers clearly have very different counters, so depending on how the tvz meta game develops either one or the other could prove more useful.
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On February 19 2009 07:53 Ideas wrote:
a player can permanently cloak his army
What, like an arbiter?
At Blizzcon, one of the Blizzard people told me that the build we were playing was slightly old and that they had already removed the gas mechanic from their internal builds. Considering it's been 4 months and they haven't mentioned it being removed (I guess? I don't read all the news), maybe it's speculation on my part.
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Anyone else recognize where the mule is from
They were in Starcraft all along!!!
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Starcraft was easy to learn difficult to master. Starcraft 2 is starting to sound like its difficult to learn and easy to master.
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On February 19 2009 08:21 Chuiu wrote:
Starcraft was easy to learn difficult to master. Starcraft 2 is starting to sound like its difficult to learn and easy to master. Why?
It's not like you NEED to learn to use dark pylons and perfect mutate larvae timings to pwn nubs on bnet.
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Sweden33719 Posts
The idea of lurkers being anti-armored units as opposed to anti infantry is strange Not bad strange just, unusual strange.
Possibly bad strange but not necessarily, anyway.
On February 19 2009 08:21 Chuiu wrote:
Starcraft was easy to learn difficult to master. Starcraft 2 is starting to sound like its difficult to learn and easy to master.
.. You have provided 0 reasoning as to why this would be the case, and the game isn't even in beta. So even if you had made something more than a one-liner of a post, your evidence as for why you think so, would be shaky at best.
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Anyone notice the change in the thor graphic?
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Damn, this is a really amazing update. Faith in Blizzard did not go to waste.
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Wow this update was freaking awesome! Great job Blizzard, damn now I'm really getting excited about SC2. I always knew it would be a good game, but now- it really seems to me that it will outstrip SC:BW. OMG can't wait... hopefully only a few more months.
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On February 19 2009 08:10 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 07:53 Ideas wrote:
a player can permanently cloak his army What, like an arbiter? At Blizzcon, one of the Blizzard people told me that the build we were playing was slightly old and that they had already removed the gas mechanic from their internal builds. Considering it's been 4 months and they haven't mentioned it being removed (I guess? I don't read all the news), maybe it's speculation on my part.
lol i kinda forgot about that. but still no arb to kill
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On February 19 2009 08:24 FrozenArbiter wrote:The idea of lurkers being anti-armored units as opposed to anti infantry is strange Not bad strange just, unusual strange. Possibly bad strange but not necessarily, anyway. Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 08:21 Chuiu wrote:
Starcraft was easy to learn difficult to master. Starcraft 2 is starting to sound like its difficult to learn and easy to master. .. You have provided 0 reasoning as to why this would be the case, and the game isn't even in beta. So even if you had made something more than a one-liner of a post, your evidence as for why you think so, would be shaky at best.
basically the way I see it, is you remove SBS and replace it with MBS, so starcraft feels more modern, and its more easy/attractive for casual players.
But then you realize that MBS lowers the skill ceiling and damages competitive play. So you bring in new gas mechanics, dark pylons, calldowns etc.
Unfortunately, in order to be effective (in order to re-raise the skill ceiling), they have to provide an advantage to competitive players over casual players (SBS rewards the competitive player by giving him units faster, and no automine+SBS rewards with a better economy to the competitive player).
So now you have the same situation as before, i.e., in order to work as effectively as SBS did in terms of skill ceiling, these new mechanics have to provide the same gap as SBS did.
So now you have the same drawbacks that SBS did, you try to do essentially the same thing (in a different way), and its even less intuitive.
Its easy for a casual player to understand that they have to click on an individual building to use it. Its not so easy to remember the gas mechanic (and its timing), dark pylons, call downs, etc.
If anything, as a casual player, now you have to keep track of two internal macro timers instead of one. In addition to remembering when a production round has ended, you must also remember when the dark pylon etc have exited cooldown or built up enough energy.
You end up with the same drawbacks and benefits, but less intuitively, and less natural
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The dark pylons cloak ability will probably only last a few minutes, like the sorceress invisibility spell from wc3.
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On February 19 2009 08:53 fusionsdf wrote:
You end up with the same drawbacks and benefits, but less intuitively, and less natural
I'm not sure where you get that from. What exactly makes the mechanics less intuitive and natural? Just because everything is complicated at first glance doesn't necessarily mean it's hard to learn. The Dark Pylon for example is very simple: Cast AoE, Workers mine more. Cast cloak, unit is cloaked. In fact, nearly all of the mechanics mentioned have a simple cast+effect that doesn't require any large degree of thought. If you want to MASTER the abilities, then of course it's going to be complicated, but all competitive games are like that.
The only mechanic that I would agree is unintuitive is the gas mechanic, but so far we haven't heard any updates on it. I certainly wouldn't call the rest of them any harder to learn than it is to use a caster like a High Templar.
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United States12235 Posts
Dark Pylon cloak being targetable doesn't make sense to me. It seems like it should only cloak the units that are within its power field, and only for a short time. Same with the harvesting bonus. Having a targeted pylon ability with an unlimited range doesn't seem very intuitive to me.
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To answer the gas mechanic thing, I'm going to quote Cydra:
Some changes for the gas mechanic.
There are still two Vespene Geysers and workers will harvest Vespene Gas until the entire gas is exhausted. Once the gas is depleted, workers will stop harvesting gas, which means there is no deplete gas mining like the original StarCraft.
Which means that the annoying gas timing mechanic is gone, the only difference from Starcraft is that workers will not carry on mining depleted gas. So the new macro mechanics sound pretty awesome, casuals that wont use it efficiently will not benefit from it and the better players will try to master it, and multiply it with the amount of expansions you'll get late game, it's going to hopefully be some nice macro-work
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the "intuitive" argument just doesn't work. Only reason for why some people see the requirement for clicking on 20 production buildings constantly is because it's the only thing they have known and done since 5 years back.
For someone who played RTS game that already had MBS system in place the "intuitive" thing would be to have MBS in place. IF you took this players and told "hey you have to constantly click on these 12 buildings under periodic intertvals.If you don't you won't be able to do shit in the game" They will think "Bullshit"
There is nothing intuitive about the click feast that is Starcraft. And No Im' not saying it's a bad thing, just that is as far from intuitive as some people try to make it.
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Ahtgh i really like this
if u stack:
natural multitask requirements+gas mechanic+race exclusive macro mechanic
maybe it can be as macro heavy as brood war
Maybe
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On February 19 2009 08:59 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 08:53 fusionsdf wrote:
You end up with the same drawbacks and benefits, but less intuitively, and less natural I'm not sure where you get that from. What exactly makes the mechanics less intuitive and natural? Just because everything is complicated at first glance doesn't necessarily mean it's hard to learn. The Dark Pylon for example is very simple: Cast AoE, Workers mine more. Cast cloak, unit is cloaked. In fact, nearly all of the mechanics mentioned have a simple cast+effect that doesn't require any large degree of thought. If you want to MASTER the abilities, then of course it's going to be complicated, but all competitive games are like that. The only mechanic that I would agree is unintuitive is the gas mechanic, but so far we haven't heard any updates on it. I certainly wouldn't call the rest of them any harder to learn than it is to use a caster like a High Templar.
I think its pretty obvious which is more intuitive. On one side you have the concept that selecting a single building will allow you to do something with that building. This has been in RTS since the early 90's (since the birth of rts) because its so intuitive.
Casting AOE mining is not intuitive. Knowing that you need to upgrade to dark pylons for macro is not intuitive. Knowing the timing/how many dark pylons to build etc. is not intuitive. And it has to be learned for each race.
If you imagine a player who has never played an RTS before, hasnt read a walkthrough or tutorial, which do you really think they will understand first? That's why its not really debatable which is more intuitive.
The goal of starcraft and SC2 was 'easy to learn, harder to master'. If something is less intuitive, then it makes harder to learn. I think it should be the goal of the developers to raise the skill ceiling in the most intuitive way possible in order to preserve that slope.
Just to compare it to another change to RTS that is an intuitive change. If you look at production queues, you have in my mind, the perfect addition. production queues make it easier for a casual player to produce units without having to master macro, but has a very clear drawback for professional player: a player who uses it stores away minerals that they could otherwise use right now. In addition, it is very clear and easy to read. If I click on my command center and hit the build scv button a bunch of times, I see up to 5 added to the queue. If I hit the cancel button, they disappear and I get my money back.
From a UI and gameplay standpoint, such a change is very readable, and very understandable even to someone unfamiliar to RTS. I think any changes to starcraft2 to make it easier/more enjoyable for casual players should fulfill two criteria:
1) they should be intuitive and easy to read. I shouldn't be expected to read a walkthrough, play a tutorial, or even have played an RTS before to understand it and how best to use it. Searching around my tech tree for something that will make a part of the game easier is not ideal.
2) there should be a clear and understandable use for each addition, but there should also be a clear drawback to the competitive player.
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On February 19 2009 09:24 Integra wrote:
the "intuitive" argument just doesn't work. Only reason for why some people see the requirement for clicking on 20 production buildings constantly is because it's the only thing they have known and done since 5 years back.
For someone who played RTS game that already had MBS system in place the "intuitive" thing would be to have MBS in place. IF you took this players and told "hey you have to constantly click on these 12 buildings under periodic intertvals.If you don't you won't be able to do shit in the game" They will think "Bullshit"
There is nothing intuitive about the click feast that is Starcraft. And No Im' not saying it's a bad thing, just that is as far from intuitive as some people try to make it.
MBS is roughly as intuitive as SBS (this is based in lart part on the players expectations, which of the two is more intuitive).
But thats not what I'm arguing. MBS even if intuitive, lowers the skill ceiling of competive play. Blizzard realizes this, hence the race specific macro gimmicks. And the macro gimmicks are themselves less intuitive than SBS.
In other words:
SBS (Intuitive, Raises skill ceiling)
MBS (Intuitive, Lowers skill ceiling) + macro gimmicks (Not as intuitive, Raises skill ceiling)
I really couldn't find a better word than gimmicks, so I hope people actually read this post and not just pick it apart because of a specific word I used
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MBS is roughly as intuitive as SBS (this is based in lart part on the players expectations, which of the two is more intuitive).
No, a person who only played with MBS will find SBS totally BS; a person who only played with SBS
will find MBS totally BS, both parties will state a valid reason for their standpoint and both will find
their way more right, true or as you put it more "intuitive"
But thats not what I'm arguing. MBS even if intuitive, lowers the skill ceiling of competive play. Blizzard realizes this, hence the race specific macro gimmicks. And the macro gimmicks are themselves less intuitive than SBS.
What skill ceiling, SC1 has been around for 10 years and it has evolved constantly that has nothing to do with the game mechanics; such as changing maps and metagame strategey changes
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On February 19 2009 09:36 fusionsdf wrote:
MBS is roughly as intuitive as SBS (this is based in lart part on the players expectations, which of the two is more intuitive).
But thats not what I'm arguing. MBS even if intuitive, lowers the skill ceiling of competive play. Blizzard realizes this, hence the race specific macro gimmicks. And the macro gimmicks are themselves less intuitive than SBS.
In other words:
SBS (Intuitive, Raises skill ceiling)
MBS (Intuitive, Lowers skill ceiling) + macro gimmicks (Not as intuitive, Raises skill ceiling)
I really couldn't find a better word than gimmicks, so I hope people actually read this post and not just pick it apart because of a specific word I used
While it's true that it's not as intuitive, I really think you're blowing this issue way out of proportion.
Like I said earlier, there is nothing overly complicated about casting an AoE to make your worker go faster. All you have to do is read a simple tooltip, and BAM, you know how to use the ability. If this obstacle was really as hard as you're making it out to be, then casuals would never play RTSs. I'm sorry, but I just can't see how a newbie would have any sort of difficulty with these macro mechanics that wouldn't be solved just by playing the game, especially since Blizzard confirmed that the gas timing mechanic is out.
Heck, Warcraft 3 was much more complicated than this, and it has a huge casual playerbase.
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On February 19 2009 09:45 Spawkuring wrote:
Heck, DOTA was much more complicated than this, and it has a huge casual playerbase.
Fixed
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This is a great Q&A, it has made em very excited for the game. They have added a lot of very interesting mechanics to the game that should make for a large number of interesting strategies and cool timing attacks.
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can multiple dark pylons be selected and hotkeyed and does smart casting apply to them?
if so observer/overseer sniping is gonna be game ending. instant cloak for your entire army that they can do nothing about but run away from?
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On February 19 2009 10:03 IdrA wrote:
can multiple dark pylons be selected and hotkeyed and does smart casting apply to them?
if so observer/overseer sniping is gonna be game ending. instant cloak for your entire army that they can do nothing about but run away from?
easily fixed by limiting range. Besides, it would mean that they need a Pylon for each unit which mean we would be in late game and at that point you would have detection. Not to mention that the duration of the cloak is very limited.
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ya i just re read it, i was assuming it was aoe for some reason
if its single unit then its no big deal.
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Your argument isn't totally unfounded:
Single unit, yes but it could have charges for more than one unit, like it can contain max 300 energy and cloaking one unit for 10 seconds only takes 100 energy. So potential abuse is possible. But we will see.
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nah, to have any army size significant enough to whipe them out or do game ending damage it would take a long time to cloak every unit, or even a significant part of it. it becomes no worse than getting an observer scourged when trying to break a lurker contain or something, its a pain in the ass and it could cost you quite a bit, but its not unproportional to the mistake you make by losing an important unit.
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Information about the DarkPylon:
Dark Pylon has 200 energy and starts with 50 energy
Proton Charge costs 50 energy and lasts for 30 seconds.
Null Shied costs 50 energy. No cool time, as long as you have enough energy, you can use this ability.
Argus Link drains 75 energy per second from the Dark Pylon.
They also have a cast range. so prolly hard to abuse.
EDIT:
Dark Pylon has 200 Life and 100 Shieds, but Pylon has 200/200 Life/Shields.
So Dark Pylon can be destroyed little bit easier than Pylon by enemy units.
Source: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=15211803043&sid=3000&pageNo=5
Just read the damn BattleNet Forums, the blues are on a Posting spree regarding the Macro mechanincs:
Cydra, can you tell us how the Calldown supply ability actually works?
1)How much does it cost?
2)How much supply does it grant?
3)Can depots that have additional supply called down still drop into the ground?
4) Is the extra supply permanent or temporary?!
1. Calldown Extra Supplies costs 50 energy.
2. Extra Supplies increases the supply output by 2.
3. You can still lower/raise your Supply Depot after calldown Extra Supplies on it.
4. It is permanent and looks different from the Supply Depot, which means you'd better take out this Depot first when you attacking the enemy Terran base.
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Blizzard has found a REALLY good solution to the issue of "How can we cater to both the casual fans AND the competitive scene?" At least in theory.
Though I'm confident that when the final product is out, it will be amazing. I've never been disappointed by Blizzard before.
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yea the dark pylon seems like it's only good for if you're wanting to send a probe out to expand and you don't want your opponent to see the probe leaving or something like that
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now if only they would make the thor/mothership/corrupter less stupid...
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I think everything looks great, but I don't like the name "Mule". Hopefully they think up something better!
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i dont know if theyve explained it but its an acronym for something, the blue guys always write MULEs when they talk about it
does sound pretty retarded though
actually only cydra caps it like that, karune doesnt
who knows
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On February 19 2009 09:42 Integra wrote:
MBS is roughly as intuitive as SBS (this is based in lart part on the players expectations, which of the two is more intuitive).
No, a person who only played with MBS will find SBS totally BS; a person who only played with SBS
will find MBS totally BS, both parties will state a valid reason for their standpoint and both will find
their way more right, true or as you put it more "intuitive"
But thats not what I'm arguing. MBS even if intuitive, lowers the skill ceiling of competive play. Blizzard realizes this, hence the race specific macro gimmicks. And the macro gimmicks are themselves less intuitive than SBS.
What skill ceiling, SC1 has been around for 10 years and it has evolved constantly that has nothing to do with the game mechanics; such as changing maps and metagame strategey changes
you didnt even argue against anything I said
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Wow, I have never seen so many blue responses.
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I'm loving these changes! The potential implications these mechanics have go beyond macro and that's exactly how it should be. Some of the things already mentioned:
- cloaked zeal rush / cloaking from proxy dark pylon / cloaking entire army in late game / cloaking for stronger ramp blocks
- energy transfer to fresh units for immediate use
- dropping mules over ramp blocks for scouting / mule bombs on tanks
- specific builds that use supply drops to refine BO timing
The larva mechanic will surely change BOs drastically, although I don't see how it's such a big economic advantage compared to the dark pylon and the mule, do you?
This batch got me excited over SC2 again!
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On February 19 2009 11:04 Savio wrote:
Wow, I have never seen so many blue responses.
I Know!! Someone needs to count, I'm sure this is a Blizzard record.
Hopefully we get a second Battlereport soon. Dustin said he would work on the Battlereport after the new unit models and mechanics are in the game.
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don't know about you, zerg looks so much better with the new hatchery, the old one was just terrible.
Then again, the new look makes the existing units looks so much worse.
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@fusionsdf: I only wanted to clarify certain things in your post.
Hopefully we get a second Battlereport soon. Dustin said he would work on the Battlereport after the new unit models and mechanics are in the game.
They better show a battlereport with Zerg, I want to see the new graphics!
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MBS (Intuitive, Lowers skill ceiling) + macro gimmicks (Not as intuitive, Raises skill ceiling)
Well, while macro gimmicks are probably not as intuitive, it is at the same level as the rest of the game. It is no more complicated than storm or plaguuu or building interceptors. Considering the mainstream RTS audience, they'd understand it in 5 minutes. Frankly, someone that couldn't understand those concepts have no place winning MP games. They can stick to SP until they learned the fundamental basics of the RTS genre.
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Dark pylon is just asking for cheese, as a hidden pylon can mean a cloaked unit in your base early, and mana transfer + nullifier can mean early mass casting, perhaps even locking unaware players in their base via force field. At the minimum, at its tech position it is far to easy to ramp block + cloak + 1gate tech safely on narrow ramp maps. At mid tech level, it can result in early cloaked phase prisms that can do all sorts of nasty stuff that a cloaked transport can do. DT rushes would seem so weak in comparison to this low tech competitor...
The terran abilities don't seem to have that much potential in changing how the game is played. This could be changed if the dropped supply have Large HP to produce the "instant wall in" or mules gets some construction ability. (give it nighthawk autocannon turret?) The huge importance of scans (see d.pylon) means the macro based abilities would be relatived unused and it is possible that no one would build planetory fortresses except in rare situations.
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On February 19 2009 10:52 IdrA wrote:
i dont know if theyve explained it but its an acronym for something, the blue guys always write MULEs when they talk about it
does sound pretty retarded though
actually only cydra caps it like that, karune doesnt
who knows
Probably a reference to the old Atari game M.U.L.E.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.L.E.
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Question: what happens if a fungal infestated unit is picked up into a transport, or does the unit loses the ability to be controlled/loaded? What happens if a fungal infested unit is burrowed?
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yea, that pretty much nails the origin behind MULE.
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United States7166 Posts
wow dark pylon only 150 minerals currently.. sounds like a good macro build will be to keep making dark pylons near your minerals until you can have Proton Charge on all your workers all the time.
also making your units invisible shortly after gateway sounds a bit fast, hello dark zealot rush (this of course depends on how much energy Null Shield costs, and how long units stay invisible for)
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a lot of people are getting really worked up about the cloak ability of the Dark pylon, I don't think we have anywhere near enough information on it to make a decision. We don't know if it has a range of casting (ie: perhapse the unit must be within range of that pylons power, add in travel time of the unit and its not going to get much use out of the cloak). Everything will be subject to balance.
by the time you actually get enough pylons to cloak an entire decently sized attack force, you enemy should have detection, so mass cloak doesn't seem very viable. And besides, if your using all your dark pylons to cloak your army it means you can't afford to use it on your probes or to recharge casters.
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with a mighty push from her bowels, the Queen creates a cluster of organic tumors that generate additional creep.
sigged
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On February 19 2009 11:23 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 10:52 IdrA wrote:
i dont know if theyve explained it but its an acronym for something, the blue guys always write MULEs when they talk about it
does sound pretty retarded though
actually only cydra caps it like that, karune doesnt
who knows Probably a reference to the old Atari game M.U.L.E. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.L.E.
A Multiple Use Labor Element, the eponymous M.U.L.E.
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Mule_box.jpg)
PS- I like a lot of these changes. However I don't think I like the patchwork macro fixes. I think out of all 3, the MULEs are the best because not only do they increase mining but they can be used to scout and repair/fight in battle etc.
like the acronym implies and then some.
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what the fuck is going on in that picture?
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M.U.L.E = Macro Under Lotta Excrement
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graphics are looking much better
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Wow I'm really liking these changes. Obviously I'm wondering how it'll all balance out (particularly the Terran changes requiring the same energy as comsats), but I'm optimistic.
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On February 19 2009 14:37 Kips wrote:
M.U.L.E = Macro Under Lotta Excrement
lol nice first post, welcome to TL
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"Don't forget, Reavers will still be seen in single player as well as the map editor."
DT's were seen during the single player campaign in StarCraft 1. Then came along the
expansion pak and BOOM! You could biuld DT's. Something tells me the reaver will make a comeback in SC2 exp pack (Yes, I know I'm thinking way to far ahead).
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Lurkers look imbalanced. A 9 range line causing up to 30 dmg to each building/tank?
But everything else is so imbalanced too that it will just balance itself, I hope.
Plus it's now a late game unit so it'll be less often used.
Wait... damn... I loved the lurker :/
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lol, I can only imagine the reavers return. They're going to make it look like a chump compared to whatever it is they want to replace it, in the spirit of the way units were introduced in SC and BW.
Like oh here's some reavers, sweet
COOLLLOSSSUUSSSSSSSSS RrarRharrharhrhrahgh :destroys all reavers:
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Holy crap those images are like a million times better than the old ones.
Looks like they're going in the right direction taking it away from being cartoony.
Edit: #6 WHAT THE FUCK?
Hey let's take micro out of the game too by just making it so the AI of the game will only attack what you want it to attack! No more messy target firing!
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What happens when a MULE shuts off when its carrying resources? Also, in late game, wouldn't it be more efficient to have a DPylon dedicated for the probes set in autocast? I t suddenly becomes trivial. Unless they'll make the DPylon a lot more expensive. Alot of these mechanics becomes a must do in the late game. I mean, wouldn't you want one CC constantly supplying Depots, or another one dropping MULEs?
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I like a lot of the updates that have been made from this Q&A.
That said, I'm really starting to get sick of all these abilities. It's like every unit and building has some sort of special ability. The worst is that several of these are "single target" abilities. Starcraft and single target abilities aren't terribly cooperative. Spells like broodling, dmatrix, hallucination, blind, and restoration get little if any use.
Another thing that's kinda buggin' me is how everything does stupid amounts of splash damage. Lurkers now have a range of 9? Ultras now have cleave (and a 200 HP increase)? BCs have an AoE ground attack? Command Centers have a medium range splash attack?! This is kind of ridiculous. I don't know how low HP units like the marine or the zergling are going to be useful beyond tier 1.5, and if memory serves me correctly, Blizzard was aiming for low tier units to have some sort of viable use late game (otherwise why would they give marines a shield at tier 3?).
I wouldn't say Blizzard is going 1 step forward and 2 steps back, but more like 1 step forward, 1 step to the side, and then 1 step back; It's not exactly better... it's just different.
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On February 19 2009 19:34 flabortaster wrote:
What happens when a MULE shuts off when its carrying resources? Also, in late game, wouldn't it be more efficient to have a DPylon dedicated for the probes set in autocast? I t suddenly becomes trivial. Unless they'll make the DPylon a lot more expensive. Alot of these mechanics becomes a must do in the late game. I mean, wouldn't you want one CC constantly supplying Depots, or another one dropping MULEs?
the game doesnt have autocast, as of the last time they talked about it
just smart cast, ie if you select 10 temps and tell them all to storm one spot only one will do it.
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On February 19 2009 19:46 VorcePA wrote:
I like a lot of the updates that have been made from this Q&A.
That said, I'm really starting to get sick of all these abilities. It's like every unit and building has some sort of special ability. The worst is that several of these are "single target" abilities. Starcraft and single target abilities aren't terribly cooperative. Spells like broodling, dmatrix, hallucination, blind, and restoration get little if any use.
Another thing that's kinda buggin' me is how everything does stupid amounts of splash damage. Lurkers now have a range of 9? Ultras now have cleave (and a 200 HP increase)? BCs have an AoE ground attack? Command Centers have a medium range splash attack?! This is kind of ridiculous. I don't know how low HP units like the marine or the zergling are going to be useful beyond tier 1.5, and if memory serves me correctly, Blizzard was aiming for low tier units to have some sort of viable use late game (otherwise why would they give marines a shield at tier 3?).
I wouldn't say Blizzard is going 1 step forward and 2 steps back, but more like 1 step forward, 1 step to the side, and then 1 step back; It's not exactly better... it's just different.
There's nothing wrong with single target abilities. Irradiate is probably one of the most useful abilites in the game, and defensive matrix gets a decent amount of use. The reason why most single target abilities fail is simply because they weren't balanced properly. They're either too weak (Blind) or too expensive to tech to (Lockdown).
Besides, you're making massive judgements about balance in a game you've never played. It seems overwhelming because it's a lot of information at once, but it'll all work out during beta testing.
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Photon Charge is an ability you want to be activated all the time on your probes. If you want to save energy for the other 2 abilities, then just shut off auto-cast. Even during WarCraft 3, they asked Blizz what abilites would have auto-cast. They said abilities that you obviously want casted all the time. Like bloodlust, slow etc..If you want the mana/energy for other spells, just shut off autocast. Or just have one group always on auto cast and another to use the other spells/abilities. Sure the spells would compete with energy, but late game, all you need is have one of each dedicate itself to a certain spell. One Dpylon for the probes, another for cloaking and another constantly powering you spellcasters. It seems okay for early-mid game but a bit of a stretch for late mid game-late game.
This would be solved entirely by scrapping the Dpylon and putting the spells in the Nexus. The Nexus is practically useless as is compared to the CC and Hatchery and putting the abilities on the Nexus would prevent dedicated Dpylons for each spell.
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Idra, the game DOES have auto-cast. On obvious spells like Med-vac heal. Psi-Storm has no Autocast because its not a spell you want to spam ALL THE TIME. You put autocast on spells that have cheap energy cost and obvious targets. There is a reason why not all spells have autocast. Autocast should NEVER be on AoE spells anyway... Granted SC2 has only a small amount of spells that require obvious targets as opposed to WC3's Bloodlust/Slow etc. but still spells which you cant to be casted ALL the time should have auto cast. Obviously you want Medic units auto healing your injured infantry if you somehow didn't want your medics/medivacs healing then you can shut off the auto heal.
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On February 19 2009 20:06 flabortaster wrote:
Photon Charge is an ability you want to be activated all the time on your probes. If you want to save energy for the other 2 abilities, then just shut off auto-cast. Even during WarCraft 3, they asked Blizz what abilites would have auto-cast. They said abilities that you obviously want casted all the time. Like bloodlust, slow etc..If you want the mana/energy for other spells, just shut off autocast. Or just have one group always on auto cast and another to use the other spells/abilities. Sure the spells would compete with energy, but late game, all you need is have one of each dedicate itself to a certain spell. One Dpylon for the probes, another for cloaking and another constantly powering you spellcasters. It seems okay for early-mid game but a bit of a stretch for late mid game-late game.
This would be solved entirely by scrapping the Dpylon and putting the spells in the Nexus. The Nexus is practically useless as is compared to the CC and Hatchery and putting the abilities on the Nexus would prevent dedicated Dpylons for each spell.
Putting the spells on the Nexus would be a step backwards. Nexuses are too durable to destroy easily, and there would be no viable way to keep the protoss from using its abilities.
For example, if I raid a protoss base, dark pylons give me a viable target to go after. I can destroy his probes (cutting off economy), and destroy his DPylons (cutting off his economy booster, and his mana supply). As stated by Blizzard, DPylons are less durable and more expensive than pylons, so I'm setting my opponent back a lot by taking them out.
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On February 19 2009 20:09 flabortaster wrote:
Idra, the game DOES have auto-cast. On obvious spells like Med-vac heal. Psi-Storm has no Autocast because its not a spell you want to spam ALL THE TIME. You put autocast on spells that have cheap energy cost and obvious targets. There is a reason why not all spells have autocast. Autocast should NEVER be on AoE spells anyway... Granted SC2 has only a small amount of spells that require obvious targets as opposed to WC3's Bloodlust/Slow etc. but still spells which you cant to be casted ALL the time should have auto cast. Obviously you want Medic units auto healing your injured infantry if you somehow didn't want your medics/medivacs healing then you can shut off the auto heal.
the game does not have autocast
one spell has autocast
theres no reason to assume theyd give dark pylons autocast when it would defeat the whole purpose of a macro mechanic.
and you dont have control over what does and doesnt have autocast, medics heal whether you want them to or not unless you keep them out of range and put them on hold positions. you cant choose to have any other spell on autocast.
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My point was, autocast should be on spells which buffs or debuffs. But it doesn't really matter since SC doesn't have spells like that aside from heal. My point I was getting was, in late-gamr, you can just build dedicated Dpylons for each spell, so you end up not really macroing at all. You have one Dpylon charging your probes, it might as well be automated.
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what?
the whole point is forcing you to go back to your base to get a macro advantage over someone that doesnt
it doesnt matter if you have a dedicated dark pylon for that or not.
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Calldown Extra Supplies: sends additional supplies to a targeted Supply Depot. Generally used by Terran commanders only in an emergency to allow them to support additional troops.
What the heck
Yes, Blizzard, let's ruin actually important skills, instead of thinking for once what differentiates good and bad players. After all, keyboard/mouse stomping is so much more valuable skill than sense of timing, right.
And looking at this Mule thing I feel dumb for arguing Medic can't be brought because of limit on units per race -__-
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On February 19 2009 20:05 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 19:46 VorcePA wrote:
I like a lot of the updates that have been made from this Q&A.
That said, I'm really starting to get sick of all these abilities. It's like every unit and building has some sort of special ability. The worst is that several of these are "single target" abilities. Starcraft and single target abilities aren't terribly cooperative. Spells like broodling, dmatrix, hallucination, blind, and restoration get little if any use.
Another thing that's kinda buggin' me is how everything does stupid amounts of splash damage. Lurkers now have a range of 9? Ultras now have cleave (and a 200 HP increase)? BCs have an AoE ground attack? Command Centers have a medium range splash attack?! This is kind of ridiculous. I don't know how low HP units like the marine or the zergling are going to be useful beyond tier 1.5, and if memory serves me correctly, Blizzard was aiming for low tier units to have some sort of viable use late game (otherwise why would they give marines a shield at tier 3?).
I wouldn't say Blizzard is going 1 step forward and 2 steps back, but more like 1 step forward, 1 step to the side, and then 1 step back; It's not exactly better... it's just different. There's nothing wrong with single target abilities. Irradiate is probably one of the most useful abilites in the game, and defensive matrix gets a decent amount of use. The reason why most single target abilities fail is simply because they weren't balanced properly. They're either too weak (Blind) or too expensive to tech to (Lockdown). Besides, you're making massive judgements about balance in a game you've never played. It seems overwhelming because it's a lot of information at once, but it'll all work out during beta testing.
I reserve judgment for release, and not before. Beta testing should alleviate any concerns I might have. And that's what they are: concerns. One might define Starcraft as being a battle between massive armies, which would be a fairly good description. Why then, I ask you, are they making abilities that affect a single unit?
Irradiate is a poor counterargument, because it affects more than just the unit cast upon. Splash affects everything around it. By definition, you're correct -- it's a single target ability, but it affects more than just the target. These abilities in this Q&A seem to effect the target and the target only.
I could see the benefit of many of these abilities if they could be cast (and be useful) by more than one at the same time, the same way stimpack is a single-target ability, but it's cast by up to 12 units at a time.
Someone posted when the Q&A batches probably were below 20 that they were annoyed by the fact that it seems like every unit has a special ability, and just wanted units that had an attack, and that was it. I thought they were being a bit dramatic back then. Here I am today, looking back on his comment and thinking "Well, now he's kind of right". There needs to be more units like the marine, the colossus, and the hydralisk that simply move about and attack. No weird gimmick that makes them shoot fire out of their ass. Hell, the reaper is a neat unit, and them with stimpack seems to go together like bread and butter, but I think throwing in timed mines is over-the-top.
Not every unit in the game needs to be "special". The dragoon in Brood War doesn't have anything special about it, but you see it in virtually every match up featuring protoss. The dragoon is now back, but it can teleport around a la The Warden in Warcraft III. What's wrong with good-old fashioned goon-dancing? There's got to be a way to make them the backbone of the protoss army, just as versatile (if not moreso) than the immortal, and non-gimmicky.
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On February 19 2009 20:29 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 20:09 flabortaster wrote:
Idra, the game DOES have auto-cast. On obvious spells like Med-vac heal. Psi-Storm has no Autocast because its not a spell you want to spam ALL THE TIME. You put autocast on spells that have cheap energy cost and obvious targets. There is a reason why not all spells have autocast. Autocast should NEVER be on AoE spells anyway... Granted SC2 has only a small amount of spells that require obvious targets as opposed to WC3's Bloodlust/Slow etc. but still spells which you cant to be casted ALL the time should have auto cast. Obviously you want Medic units auto healing your injured infantry if you somehow didn't want your medics/medivacs healing then you can shut off the auto heal. the game does not have autocast one spell has autocast theres no reason to assume theyd give dark pylons autocast when it would defeat the whole purpose of a macro mechanic. and you dont have control over what does and doesnt have autocast, medics heal whether you want them to or not unless you keep them out of range and put them on hold positions. you cant choose to have any other spell on autocast.
In SC2 just like in WC3 you can just right-click on heal and auto-cast will be turned off. No need to keep healer out of range and put him on hold
Dark-pylons 'macro' spell can be easily made auto-cast. That will defeat its whole purpose, yes, and that's just shows how dumb this gimmick is. They try to compensate for supposedly negative effect of automation with something that can be easily automated itself. That's absolutely dumb.
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On February 19 2009 20:48 InRaged wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 20:29 IdrA wrote:On February 19 2009 20:09 flabortaster wrote:
Idra, the game DOES have auto-cast. On obvious spells like Med-vac heal. Psi-Storm has no Autocast because its not a spell you want to spam ALL THE TIME. You put autocast on spells that have cheap energy cost and obvious targets. There is a reason why not all spells have autocast. Autocast should NEVER be on AoE spells anyway... Granted SC2 has only a small amount of spells that require obvious targets as opposed to WC3's Bloodlust/Slow etc. but still spells which you cant to be casted ALL the time should have auto cast. Obviously you want Medic units auto healing your injured infantry if you somehow didn't want your medics/medivacs healing then you can shut off the auto heal. the game does not have autocast one spell has autocast theres no reason to assume theyd give dark pylons autocast when it would defeat the whole purpose of a macro mechanic. and you dont have control over what does and doesnt have autocast, medics heal whether you want them to or not unless you keep them out of range and put them on hold positions. you cant choose to have any other spell on autocast. In SC2 just like in WC3 you can just right-click on heal and auto-cast will be turned off. No need to keep healer out of range and put him on hold Dark-pylons 'macro' spell can be easily made auto-cast. That will defeat its whole purpose, yes, and that's just shows how dumb this gimmick is. They try to compensate for supposedly negative effect of automation with something that can be easily automated itself. That's absolutely dumb.
i was talking about sc medics, i didnt know they changed the way it worked for sc2
and no, it doesnt really matter if its a gimmick. its a GAME. its set in OUTER SPACE. its humans fighting ALIENS. it ISNT REAL LIFE. if something makes for a better game who the fuck cares if its artificial or imposed. and this will make for a better game, its actually a pretty decent solution. with sbs, casual players still had to go back to their base and click a bunch of times in order to play at all, cuz if you didnt you didnt get any units. with dark pylons and mules and the larvae thing you can still play the game without using them, you'll suck but casual players shouldnt care about that. they can just sit there and attack move and watch the pretty battle animations to their hearts content. however to be good you'll have to use the the macro mechanics, which adds to the skill ceiling and brings back something of the macro multitasking demand. its a compromise so necessarily its not gonna be as good as either extreme, depending on your viewpoint, but its not too bad given they wont remove mbs.
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At first I thought I confused word gimmick with something else. Lurked wiki - nope, I'm clean. So what your OUTER SPACE and ALIENS have anything to do with this feature being gimmick is beyond me.
It doesn't make for a better game any more than disabling auto-mining in ladder and enabling it anywhere else. It's even fucking worser - manual-mining was mundane but it wasn't game-deciding. But thanks to all the whining they basically brought it back as a game-deciding feature. Thank you.
And I don't see it as a compromise for anything. It's plain catering to the macro-whiners that suddenly appeared out of nowhere with sc2 announce. When I choose to play competitive multiplayer RTS I wanna go head to head with my opponent and not sit 20 minutes DDRing in my base later comparing whose penis longer in one single battle. If I wanted that I would compete in split-screen Guitar Hero, at least there I would listen to the interesting music.
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On February 19 2009 20:39 VorcePA wrote:
Irradiate is a poor counterargument, because it affects more than just the unit cast upon. Splash affects everything around it. By definition, you're correct -- it's a single target ability, but it affects more than just the target. These abilities in this Q&A seem to effect the target and the target only.
Consume.
Also, lots and lots of BW units had abilities. Marines had stimpacks, vultures had mines, tanks had siege, reavers and carriers needed their scarabs / interceptors built, etc etc
BW is full of all kinds of abilities, and it makes sense that SC2 will also have plenty of them.
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On February 19 2009 21:40 InRaged wrote:
...
It doesn't make for a better game any more than disabling auto-mining in ladder and enabling it anywhere else.
Yes it does, having to justify why that feature should be turned on somewhere and off somewhere else is totally inconsistant and ridiculous. Now its a unified version that makes sense, and gives everyone the same new good UI.
It's even fucking worser - manual-mining was mundane but it wasn't game-deciding. But thanks to all the whining they basically brought it back as a game-deciding feature. Thank you.
How can you know it is more game deciding than sending your probes to work, have you tested the new features? In my oppinion its exactly the same, not sending new probes to work = less income, not using the macro mechanic = less income, only that newbie players don't have to use the new macro mechanic, whereas newb players still have to send their probes to mine...
And I don't see it as a compromise for anything. It's plain catering to the macro-whiners that suddenly appeared out of nowhere with sc2 announce. When I choose to play competitive multiplayer RTS I wanna go head to head with my opponent and not sit 20 minutes DDRing in my base later comparing whose penis longer in one single battle. If I wanted that I would compete in split-screen Guitar Hero, at least there I would listen to the interesting music.
If you are "paying DDR in your base for 20 minutes" before any battle happens then thats your playstyle. There can be players who heavily focus on micro, not "playing DDR" at all, and there can be players who play macro heavy. If balanced right, there is room for a lot of different playstyles.
Also SCBW music rocks!
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On February 19 2009 22:10 Error Ash wrote:
Yes it does, having to justify why that feature should be turned on somewhere and off somewhere else is totally inconsistant and ridiculous.
It's justified in exactly same way as idra just justified lack of auto-casting on dark pylon. No difference.
How can you know it is more game deciding than sending your probes to work, have you tested the new features? In my oppinion its exactly the same, not sending new probes to work = less income, not using the macro mechanic = less income, only that newbie players don't have to use the new macro mechanic, whereas newb players still have to send their probes to mine...
Have YOU tested anything at all before claiming that something requires skill and creates different playstyles?
If you are "paying DDR in your base for 20 minutes" before any battle happens then thats your playstyle. There can be players who heavily focus on micro, not "playing DDR" at all, and there can be players who play macro heavy. If balanced right, there is room for a lot of different playstyles.
The only way to have different playstyle is to cheese or go some one-base or low-eco build. But for playing like that one will be called gay, for refusing to play straight game.
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Unfortunately the Mule is still in the prototype phase and has a limited battery supply (timed life).
All units magically have unlimited ammunition and fuel and now some stupid mining cart that gets dropped from outer space runs out of battery after a short amount of time? That's your explanation for them having timed life? Are you kidding me?
I'm all for macro mechanics that intensify and diversify the game but if they're like this I'd rather pass.
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On February 19 2009 21:40 InRaged wrote:
At first I thought I confused word gimmick with something else. Lurked wiki - nope, I'm clean. So what your OUTER SPACE and ALIENS have anything to do with this feature being gimmick is beyond me.
i wasnt debating you calling it a gimmick, it most definitely is. im just pointing out theres absolute nothing wrong with using gimmicky features if they make the game better.
It doesn't make for a better game any more than disabling auto-mining in ladder and enabling it anywhere else. It's even fucking worser - manual-mining was mundane but it wasn't game-deciding. But thanks to all the whining they basically brought it back as a game-deciding feature. Thank you.
manual mining is far more significant than this is. if you choose not to use manual mining.... you dont get any money. if you choose not to use mules, you just mine slower. if manual mining wasnt 'game-deciding' this certainly isnt. however i do agree that it would be better to just disable easy mode in competitive play. that seems to have become an unattainable goal, and this is the next best thing available
And I don't see it as a compromise for anything. It's plain catering to the macro-whiners that suddenly appeared out of nowhere with sc2 announce. When I choose to play competitive multiplayer RTS I wanna go head to head with my opponent and not sit 20 minutes DDRing in my base later comparing whose penis longer in one single battle. If I wanted that I would compete in split-screen Guitar Hero, at least there I would listen to the interesting music.
part of going head to head with your opponent in a real time strategy game is seeing who has better multitasking. if he is better at managing his time so that he can return to his base and oversee his economy and production more efficiently than you can he deserves an edge. if you dont like that you should not be playing a real time strategy game.
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On February 19 2009 22:39 InRaged wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 22:10 Error Ash wrote:
Yes it does, having to justify why that feature should be turned on somewhere and off somewhere else is totally inconsistant and ridiculous. It's justified in exactly same way as idra just justified lack of auto-casting on dark pylon. No difference. Show nested quote +How can you know it is more game deciding than sending your probes to work, have you tested the new features? In my oppinion its exactly the same, not sending new probes to work = less income, not using the macro mechanic = less income, only that newbie players don't have to use the new macro mechanic, whereas newb players still have to send their probes to mine... Have YOU tested anything at all before claiming that something requires skill and creates different playstyles?
dont have to test something thats common sense. it requires skill in that it requires multitasking, which is a skill. from that it follows that it will create different playstyles, given that there is more to do in the game than can feasibly be done. players will be forced to prioritize. if the game is designed well players will be able to prioritize different parts of the game and still be competitive, leading to different play styles. this is what happened in bw, though it has mostly faded out in the macro era. therefore it can happen in sc2 if designed correctly, time-consuming macro tasks are one of the requirements for that correct design.
Show nested quote +If you are "paying DDR in your base for 20 minutes" before any battle happens then thats your playstyle. There can be players who heavily focus on micro, not "playing DDR" at all, and there can be players who play macro heavy. If balanced right, there is room for a lot of different playstyles. The only way to have different playstyle is to cheese or go some one-base or low-eco build. But for playing like that one will be called gay, for refusing to play straight game.
ya
boxer
what a fag.
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you were just telling him he shouldnt be making assumptions without testing, and you're trying to tell us what playstyles will be viable in a game thats pre-beta?
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In these days we live in, every aspect adding to the skill ceiling will be artificial. There might have been times, when insufficient UIs were technically imposed, but those are gone. So now the question is, what mechanics should be introduced to higher the skill ceiling, while making that mechanics feel as little forced as possible. Not having Automining and not having MBS obviously feels very forced, because other games have it, too, and there are virtually no other thing you'd ever want to do with your workers than letting them mine, similar argument goes for MBS.
Therefore, mechanics should be introduced, that could also easily be taken over by the AI, but have good reasons to be not. Someone mentioned Psistorm. That is a good ability, and Blizzard didn't fully succeed, but went in that direction with the new macro changes. At least you have to make a decision beetween different spells of the dark pylon, the CC, etc. Sending a worker to mine never was a decision. Higher your mining speed OR cloak one of your units is a decision, therefore a good reason to not automize it.
Of course, it still feels more forced than the Psistorm. But you should rather think about how it could become even less forced, rather than saying "oh well, it is always forced, so just take MBS and Automining out."
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While we're at it, let's remove auto-attack and multiple unit selection as well. It's not real micro unless we have to fire every shot by ourselves, now is it?
But seriously, maybe the game would've been fine without these extra mechanics. How can anyone say for sure that the skill ceiling is not high enough without having actually tried to reach for it?
IdrA, you said that one of the reasons Broodwar is so good because there are more things than you can possibly do which makes for a lot of different playstyles and also makes it impossible to ever perfect it.
Are you really positive that SC2 will be "dumbed down" enough so that players will be able to get close to perfection and thereby making the game less interesting without those additional mechanics?
I'm not asking you to get in conflict with your statements but because I'm simply nowhere near to be good enough to really tell from my own perspective.
From my point of view there'd still be so many things to do at the same time that I'd never be able to keep up with it.
Making the game more micro-intensive also means that there's less time total to be spend on macro. So who knows if there can't be a new balance between those two that's just not the same as in Broodwar but equally as diverse.
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On February 20 2009 00:34 ven_ wrote:
Making the game more micro-intensive also means that there's less time total to be spend on macro. So who knows if there can't be a new balance between those two that's just not the same as in Broodwar but equally as diverse.
I don't think any of us want Starcraft 2 to become Warcraft IV. By that I mean, Warcraft III is known for being an EXTREMELY micro intensive game that requires no macro.
The thing that people here like about Brood War is that many people here feel it has a good balance of macro and micro.
Without introducing macro mechanics, the game becomes like Warcraft III where all players do is exchange blows for 5 hours until someone loses ONE unit and then it's gg.
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On February 20 2009 00:34 ven_ wrote:
While we're at it, let's remove auto-attack and multiple unit selection as well. It's not real micro unless we have to fire every shot by ourselves, now is it?
But seriously, maybe the game would've been fine without these extra mechanics. How can anyone say for sure that the skill ceiling is not high enough without having actually tried to reach for it?
IdrA, you said that one of the reasons Broodwar is so good because there are more things than you can possibly do which makes for a lot of different playstyles and also makes it impossible to ever perfect it.
Are you really positive that SC2 will be "dumbed down" enough so that players will be able to get close to perfection and thereby making the game less interesting without those additional mechanics? you missed the point. i was not saying that sc2 wouldnt have been mechanically demanding, i just mentioned that because it is a prequisite for varied styles. what was lacking before, and may still be lacking to some extent, is a time-demanding macro task. all the multi-tasking requirements in the world wont lead to varied styles if all of the multitasking is related to the same element of the game.
I'm not asking you to get in conflict with your statements but because I'm simply nowhere near to be good enough to really tell from my own perspective.
From my point of view there'd still be so many things to do at the same time that I'd never be able to keep up with it.
Making the game more micro-intensive also means that there's less time total to be spend on macro. So who knows if there can't be a new balance between those two that's just not the same as in Broodwar but equally as diverse.
obviously theres gonna be a new balance, it was never going to be as macro intensive as bw. but before the new macro mechanics there wasnt going to be any macro TO balance. literally, the only reason you had to look away from your army was to build buildings before. its a bit better now, nothin to do but wait for beta and see how it plays.
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Seems to me like the dark pylon is a better, more versatile version of the shield battery. I like it alot.
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On February 20 2009 00:41 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 00:34 ven_ wrote:
Making the game more micro-intensive also means that there's less time total to be spend on macro. So who knows if there can't be a new balance between those two that's just not the same as in Broodwar but equally as diverse. I don't think any of us want Starcraft 2 to become Warcraft IV. By that I mean, Warcraft III is known for being an EXTREMELY micro intensive game that requires no macro. The thing that people here like about Brood War is that many people here feel it has a good balance of macro and micro. Without introducing macro mechanics, the game becomes like Warcraft III where all players do is exchange blows for 5 hours until someone loses ONE unit and thaen it's gg.
That's just not true. The games are way too different in way too many areas that any sort of comparison between the two is useless.
Warcraft is very micro-intensive but for very different reasons that have no actual resemblence with Starcraft 2.
WC3 has almost no economy and if it had it wouldn't make that much of a difference due to the low supply limits. Having a bigger army can actually be a disadvantage due to upkeep.
You have less but more powerful units and additionally to that also the heroes that get experience from dying units which makes it just way more important not to lose them. Especially because every game is practically a very low-economy game and you usually can't afford to rebuild needlessly lost units.
Due the existence of creeps on the map, the importance of the hero and the very idiotic tech tree (which isn't really a tree, more like a single branch) everyone (even across all the four races) has to use practically the same build order.
And the biggest difference of all are heroes that are so powerful that they can take on whole armies on their own if they have a sufficiently high level.
Sure Warcraft also has MBS and automining but that also plays so much more different that you can't compare it either.
Automining in Warcraft 3 is practically useless because you only need like a total of 12 workers which are finished right before your hero pops out anyway and MBS isn't that much of an advantage because you usually only have a maximum of two production buildings of the same type even in very late game.
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On February 20 2009 01:13 ven_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 00:41 Kyo Yuy wrote:On February 20 2009 00:34 ven_ wrote:
Making the game more micro-intensive also means that there's less time total to be spend on macro. So who knows if there can't be a new balance between those two that's just not the same as in Broodwar but equally as diverse. I don't think any of us want Starcraft 2 to become Warcraft IV. By that I mean, Warcraft III is known for being an EXTREMELY micro intensive game that requires no macro. The thing that people here like about Brood War is that many people here feel it has a good balance of macro and micro. Without introducing macro mechanics, the game becomes like Warcraft III where all players do is exchange blows for 5 hours until someone loses ONE unit and thaen it's gg. Warcraft is very micro-intensive but for very different reasons that have no actual resemblence with Starcraft 2. You've played the final version of Starcraft 2 before so you know what it resembles right?
Due the existence of creeps on the map, the importance of the hero and the very idiotic tech tree (which isn't really a tree, more like a single branch) everyone (even across all the four races) has to use practically the same build order. Try using the exact same build order in four matchups for any given race and every map regardless of balance, and see what happens.
And the biggest difference of all are heroes that are so powerful that they can take on whole armies on their own if they have a sufficiently high level. No.
Sure Warcraft also has MBS and automining but that also plays so much more different that you can't compare it either. That's like saying attack move plays differently in different RTS games. MBS and automine are mechanics. They work exactly the same way in every game: several buildings can be selected at once, and workers automatically start mining when you rally them to a resource node.
I can make a comparison to what people don't want Starcraft 2 TO BECOME because it's not out yet. You're saying I can't because Starcraft 2 plays differently from Warcraft III. And you know that...how? Have you seen some competitive Starcraft 2 tournaments yet to see how games play out on the professional level?
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On February 19 2009 05:53 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2009 23:24 adelarge wrote:
No surprise here, Terran again got the worst abilities.
Old scanner presented like some new mechanic and some lame calldown which only gives you more supply? What?? Are you fuc*ing kidding me Blizzard? That's the best you can think of?
They probably "invented" these mechanic during a lunch break. Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 05:32 -orb- wrote:On February 19 2009 05:25 Frits wrote:haha On February 18 2009 23:24 adelarge wrote:
No surprise here, Terran again got the worst abilities.
Old scanner presented like some new mechanic and some lame calldown which only gives you more supply? What?? Are you fuc*ing kidding me Blizzard? That's the best you can think of?
They probably "invented" these mechanic during a lunch break. What the fuck blizzard, how dare you overpower zerg and protoss!!! *has never played a game of sc2* I like his last comment "They probably invented these mechanic during a lunch break" I find it ironic because Pixar got the ideas for the last 10 years worth of their animations all in one sitting drinking coffee and talking, and yet this guy seems to think you have to go into some special creativity room and wear your imagination hat and stir brainwaves with a spoon to get ideas out. rofl
Where does these quotes come from? Can't find them in this thread...
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On February 20 2009 01:51 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 01:13 ven_ wrote:On February 20 2009 00:41 Kyo Yuy wrote:On February 20 2009 00:34 ven_ wrote:
Making the game more micro-intensive also means that there's less time total to be spend on macro. So who knows if there can't be a new balance between those two that's just not the same as in Broodwar but equally as diverse. I don't think any of us want Starcraft 2 to become Warcraft IV. By that I mean, Warcraft III is known for being an EXTREMELY micro intensive game that requires no macro. The thing that people here like about Brood War is that many people here feel it has a good balance of macro and micro. Without introducing macro mechanics, the game becomes like Warcraft III where all players do is exchange blows for 5 hours until someone loses ONE unit and thaen it's gg. Warcraft is very micro-intensive but for very different reasons that have no actual resemblence with Starcraft 2. You've played the final version of Starcraft 2 before so you know what it resembles right?
I can say they play differently because the games are just nothing alike. Nothing at all.
Show nested quote +Due the existence of creeps on the map, the importance of the hero and the very idiotic tech tree (which isn't really a tree, more like a single branch) everyone (even across all the four races) has to use practically the same build order. Try using the exact same build order in four matchups for any given race and every map regardless of balance, and see what happens.
That's exactly what I'm doing and it's working out just fine. Try doing it differently like adding an expansion before getting a rax or teching before getting an altar. Guess what, it's impossible.
Show nested quote +And the biggest difference of all are heroes that are so powerful that they can take on whole armies on their own if they have a sufficiently high level. No.
Seriously, did you ever even play the game?
Show nested quote +Sure Warcraft also has MBS and automining but that also plays so much more different that you can't compare it either. That's like saying attack move plays differently in different RTS games. MBS and automine are mechanics. They work exactly the same way in every game: several buildings can be selected at once, and workers automatically start mining when you rally them to a resource node.
I never said that. I said they will play out differently because in Warcraft 3 it makes almost no difference at all if you had MBS and automining or not but it will make a big impact in Starcraft 2.
I can make a comparison to what people don't want Starcraft 2 TO BECOME because it's not out yet. You're saying I can't because Starcraft 2 plays differently from Warcraft III. And you know that...how? Have you seen some competitive Starcraft 2 tournaments yet to see how games play out on the professional level?
There's no similarity so there's no way they will be even remotely the same. That's how I know.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On February 19 2009 18:11 -orb- wrote:
Holy crap those images are like a million times better than the old ones.
Looks like they're going in the right direction taking it away from being cartoony.
Edit: #6 WHAT THE FUCK?
Hey let's take micro out of the game too by just making it so the AI of the game will only attack what you want it to attack! No more messy target firing!
Have you tried using infested terrans? God DAMN are they ever useless! The only way to get off a hit without them exploding into the wrong thing is to drop them ;/
I don't think it's a big deal ~
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On February 19 2009 23:35 IdrA wrote:
i wasnt debating you calling it a gimmick, it most definitely is. im just pointing out theres absolute nothing wrong with using gimmicky features if they make the game better.
Nothing wrong with using gimmick when same effect could be achieved without using gimmick. Yeah, right. Makes sense as usual.
manual mining is far more significant than this is. if you choose not to use manual mining.... you dont get any money. if you choose not to use mules, you just mine slower. if manual mining wasnt 'game-deciding' this certainly isnt.
You can't choose not to use manual mining, hence "mundane". But whether you send workers to mine perfectly or sloppily has almost zero impact on the game (outside of early/low-eco game) because of the way resource gathering AI works. Besides, there is limit on how many workers you can have per base and when you're approaching this limit or climbed above it adding workers won't give additional income at all.
That's not true for new mechanics, especially not second statement. Therefore, these gimmicks are inevitably more game-deciding and player-demanding than manual-mining. Adding them when you don't even know whether there's need for one is absolutely dumb.
part of going head to head with your opponent in a real time strategy game is seeing who has better multitasking. if he is better at managing his time so that he can return to his base and oversee his economy and production more efficiently than you can he deserves an edge. if you dont like that you should not be playing a real time strategy game.
Manual-mining has nothing to do with multitasking. You can tell this tales to the blizzard, the noobs they are will believe this, since it's pretty difficult for novices to get in rhythm with this hassle. For any amateur who spend couple months, let alone about a year, to play, it requires zero effort to keep this task in mind and execute these stupid several clicks every time he hotkeys/produces reinforcement or builds additional supplies/defenses/gateways.
And it doesn't have any impact on players styles, since something without strict timing can be delayed with no harm for the player.
And you're not the one who can tell me what I should play and what not. If anything, You shouldn't comment on game-developing process if you're eager to put frustrating shit into the game just to raise skill ceiling.
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On February 19 2009 23:39 IdrA wrote:
dont have to test something thats common sense. it requires skill in that it requires multitasking, which is a skill. from that it follows that it will create different playstyles, given that there is more to do in the game than can feasibly be done. players will be forced to prioritize. if the game is designed well players will be able to prioritize different parts of the game and still be competitive, leading to different play styles. this is what happened in bw, though it has mostly faded out in the macro era. therefore it can happen in sc2 if designed correctly, time-consuming macro tasks are one of the requirements for that correct design.
BW faded in the macro era because players get skilled enough. SC2 will start from this point. Not from 2004 year. And I demand proof for your claims, because I don't see logic in your "common sense" of how adding macro into sequel of the game that already had slipped in the macro era will help differentiate playstyles.
ya
boxer
what a fag.
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So, wait a second, micro-oriented playstyle is after all nothing else but cheesy/one-base/low-eco play? And that will dissapear from sc2 with auto-mining and mbs? If no, the point of this comment is?..
you were just telling him he shouldnt be making assumptions without testing, and you're trying to tell us what playstyles will be viable in a game thats pre-beta?
The fuck is this. In sentence you quoted above I was referring to the "then thats your playstyle" which is clearly about BW. And while we're here, it's you who keep insisting that game won't support different playstyles unless there's some crappy gimmick or total step-back to the old UI. It's you who throws unsupported claims only to admit later that people indeed whine a lot about prevalence of macro and then you say there should be more macro-features anyway.
I'm for year saying that people should wait for beta before jumping to the assumptions and before reverting back to the bw-way by either dropping automining or by replacing it with some ugly gimmicks.
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On February 19 2009 21:40 InRaged wrote:
It doesn't make for a better game any more than disabling auto-mining in ladder and enabling it anywhere else. It's even fucking worser - manual-mining was mundane but it wasn't game-deciding. But thanks to all the whining they basically brought it back as a game-deciding feature. Thank you.
Why are you even looking forward to SC2 if you so apparently hate the original. You want to just play against your opponent and outsmart him? Go play turnbased games. I, on the other hand, don't even need an opponent to have fun in my ideal game. It's all about training yourself to exhaustion while listening to a sterotypical Asian montage training theme like so
+ Show Spoiler +
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Go to sleep and look what Blizzard throw out the door O_O.
I really like these mechanics. They're something new players can use every now and again and feel like they have been rewarded and higher level players will spam their use to maximise the advantage.
The Terran mechanic seems fine. You can scout with it, you can drop Mules at any of your bases from one Command Center (thingy). Seems useful to me.
The Dark Pylon is very interesting. Can't wait to try out stuff like this.
The Zerg Queen is awesome. She's really turning into the "Base Overseer" unit that it was originally supposed to be. This extra larvae idea has great potential.
damn..... I really want to play this game!
Blizzard! More replays! :D
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On February 20 2009 01:51 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 01:13 ven_ wrote:On February 20 2009 00:41 Kyo Yuy wrote:On February 20 2009 00:34 ven_ wrote:
Making the game more micro-intensive also means that there's less time total to be spend on macro. So who knows if there can't be a new balance between those two that's just not the same as in Broodwar but equally as diverse. I don't think any of us want Starcraft 2 to become Warcraft IV. By that I mean, Warcraft III is known for being an EXTREMELY micro intensive game that requires no macro. The thing that people here like about Brood War is that many people here feel it has a good balance of macro and micro. Without introducing macro mechanics, the game becomes like Warcraft III where all players do is exchange blows for 5 hours until someone loses ONE unit and thaen it's gg. Warcraft is very micro-intensive but for very different reasons that have no actual resemblence with Starcraft 2. You've played the final version of Starcraft 2 before so you know what it resembles right?
You don't need to play the final version of Starcraft 2 to know that it won't have insanely powerful heroes, creeping, experience, and upkeep.
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I don't like the direction this game is going in.
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the next battle report better showcase the mule and the photon charges
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Most definitely. These mechanics coupled with the faster "fastest" speed will hopefull make SC2 as hardcore or even more so than BW.
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On February 19 2009 19:34 flabortaster wrote:
Also, in late game, wouldn't it be more efficient to have a DPylon dedicated for the probes set in autocast? I t suddenly becomes trivial. Unless they'll make the DPylon a lot more expensive. Alot of these mechanics becomes a must do in the late game. I mean, wouldn't you want one CC constantly supplying Depots, or another one dropping MULEs? They cannot make these autocast because they all have drawbacks so they're all strategic decisions. Blizzard already said a long time ago that autocasts are reserved to repetitive skills that require no decision, just always use when it's up.
That is not the case here.
- If your dark pylons are set to always increase harvest speed, then you won't be using them to cloak units defending your base or to give energy to that HT defending your expansion.
- The choice between mule/supply depends on your scv/supply numbers and if you're planning for attacking right now or later on..
- Even then you cannot just spam supplies because then you'll have no scans.
- Zergs can't always spam spawn larvaes because you might always need to expand your creep or to use the queen's abilities to defend your main from a drop. Or even save energy and plan for an all-in attack including your queens.
It's a strategical decision to use it or not, it isn't always obvious to just use it when it's up. That's why they wouldn't make it an autocast. If you pay attention you'll notice that they put all these drawbacks on purpose so it cannot be automated, since this system is supposed to make up for another automation in the first place.
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Making dark pylons automated would be like shaving your head and then tattooing hair on it.
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some updates on the DarkPylon, When activated each Probe will return +1 mineral.
Only +1 mineral you say? Considering one probe returns 5 minerals +1 mineral means a 20% increase.
Source:http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=15199332909
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I am sure someone must have brought this up before but how is autocasting proton charge different from autocasting psi storm?
The UI convention is that powerful AoE abilities that require skill to place are exempt from autocasting.
By the way, has it been noted that using proton charge will help improve players psi storming skills.
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I think no spell at all should be autocasted except for ones like Heal that are just humanly impossible to use otherwise. In broodwar even singletargeted spells like blindspot or irradiate weren't on autocast and those were a real bitch to use because of the lack of smart casting. The addition of smart casting should already be enough of a relief for the player.
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On February 20 2009 03:21 InRaged wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 23:35 IdrA wrote:
i wasnt debating you calling it a gimmick, it most definitely is. im just pointing out theres absolute nothing wrong with using gimmicky features if they make the game better. Nothing wrong with using gimmick when same effect could be achieved without using gimmick. Yeah, right. Makes sense as usual. Show nested quote +manual mining is far more significant than this is. if you choose not to use manual mining.... you dont get any money. if you choose not to use mules, you just mine slower. if manual mining wasnt 'game-deciding' this certainly isnt. You can't choose not to use manual mining, hence "mundane". But whether you send workers to mine perfectly or sloppily has almost zero impact on the game (outside of early/low-eco game) because of the way resource gathering AI works. Besides, there is limit on how many workers you can have per base and when you're approaching this limit or climbed above it adding workers won't give additional income at all. That's not true for new mechanics, especially not second statement. Therefore, these gimmicks are inevitably more game-deciding and player-demanding than manual-mining. Adding them when you don't even know whether there's need for one is absolutely dumb. you're kidding right?
as long as you have a non-saturated base you have to go look at it every 20 seconds to do as well as possible. in the mid game when your main and natural arent even saturated this is a very, very big deal. if you dont understand how important it is to send scvs to mine efficiently.... i really dont know what to say. you're just clueless. its far less game deciding if you get a short mining speed boost than if you have half as many workers mining than me. and technically 'not using' manual mining would mean you dont mine at all.
some of us are not idiots. some of us can look at available information and draw conclusions. no time consuming macro mechanic->the game will be almost entirely micro oriented->starcraft players do not want that->call for macro mechanics. so yes, we know theres a call for one.
Show nested quote +part of going head to head with your opponent in a real time strategy game is seeing who has better multitasking. if he is better at managing his time so that he can return to his base and oversee his economy and production more efficiently than you can he deserves an edge. if you dont like that you should not be playing a real time strategy game.
Manual-mining has nothing to do with multitasking. You can tell this tales to the blizzard, the noobs they are will believe this, since it's pretty difficult for novices to get in rhythm with this hassle. For any amateur who spend couple months, let alone about a year, to play, it requires zero effort to keep this task in mind and execute these stupid several clicks every time he hotkeys/produces reinforcement or builds additional supplies/defenses/gateways. And it doesn't have any impact on players styles, since something without strict timing can be delayed with no harm for the player.
lets play a game. 50 bucks says i have more workers than you after 15 minutes. hell fucking strelok, 2nd or 3rd best white terran, cant even manage his worker production properly.
macroing well doesnt have an effect on your micro? watch best play.
you can claim its easy all you want. its not.
And you're not the one who can tell me what I should play and what not. If anything, You shouldn't comment on game-developing process if you're eager to put frustrating shit into the game just to raise skill ceiling.
actually it makes me more qualified, for this specific game. theyve said they intend to make it an esport. an esport must have a sufficiently high skill ceiling. so it is necessary to look at the game design with skill level in mind.
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On February 20 2009 03:24 InRaged wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2009 23:39 IdrA wrote:
dont have to test something thats common sense. it requires skill in that it requires multitasking, which is a skill. from that it follows that it will create different playstyles, given that there is more to do in the game than can feasibly be done. players will be forced to prioritize. if the game is designed well players will be able to prioritize different parts of the game and still be competitive, leading to different play styles. this is what happened in bw, though it has mostly faded out in the macro era. therefore it can happen in sc2 if designed correctly, time-consuming macro tasks are one of the requirements for that correct design.
BW faded in the macro era because players get skilled enough. SC2 will start from this point. Not from 2004 year. And I demand proof for your claims, because I don't see logic in your "common sense" of how adding macro into sequel of the game that already had slipped in the macro era will help differentiate playstyles. ya
since sc2 is exactly the same game as sc1
all the same units, the exact same economic setup, no new abilities or features. and they especially havent made it any easier to attack or harass your opponent.
seriously, the only real similarity is the word 'starcraft' in the name. you have absolutely no clue how the game will play. those of us who arent idiots only have a small idea.
is war3 a macro oriented game now? are the players somehow less skilled than starcraft players? if nada went over and played war3 would it become a macro oriented game? obviously not. player skill is not the only determining factor of game style. if the game design does not allow for it, its not gonna happen. hence if sc2 is designed properly, it can make both styles equally powerful. obviously thats not easy to do, but thats not a reason to not try.
So, wait a second, micro-oriented playstyle is after all nothing else but cheesy/one-base/low-eco play? And that will dissapear from sc2 with auto-mining and mbs? If no, the point of this comment is?..
what? you made a dumb statement, that playing low econ style would get you called a cheesing newbie and blah blah blah. that quote is just a reply to that. the most beloved sc player of all time is also one of the cheesiest.
obviously micro oriented play is more than one basing. micro oriented play thrives in low econ situations, so it may be more common. but theres alot more to it than that. for instance, mid game you're dropping 2 zerg expos and you have a full econ running yourself. the macro oriented player stims his marines and puts them on hold position, leaving them to kill everything until 2 lurkers come up. by doing so he allows himself to go macro perfectly, thus having a bunch of new units to attack with when the drops are cleared. a micro oriented player spends his time controlling the units from the 2 drops, meaning hes probably gonna kill at least one base. however, because he focuses his attention on micro his production slips, because if you stop watching your marines for 5 seconds they could very well all die. this makes it very difficult to go back and make 10 more marines every 30 seconds. as such the micro oriented player has alot less new units, but his existing units did more damage. in sc it turned out that the macro oriented play style was easier to do and more effective, but ideally both could be equally as strong. thats what we should be aiming for with sc2.
Show nested quote +you were just telling him he shouldnt be making assumptions without testing, and you're trying to tell us what playstyles will be viable in a game thats pre-beta? The fuck is this. In sentence you quoted above I was referring to the "then thats your playstyle" which is clearly about BW. And while we're here, it's you who keep insisting that game won't support different playstyles unless there's some crappy gimmick or total step-back to the old UI. It's you who throws unsupported claims only to admit later that people indeed whine a lot about prevalence of macro and then you say there should be more macro-features anyway. I'm for year saying that people should wait for beta before jumping to the assumptions and before reverting back to the bw-way by either dropping automining or by replacing it with some ugly gimmicks.
there is nothing about that series of quotes that references bw. and given that we're discussing sc2 theres no reason to make that assumption.
the game WILL NOT support a macro oriented play style if there is no time consuming macro task. this is not wild speculation. it is a fact. if it requires no time or effort to macro well... then everyones gonna have near perfect macro. theres not going to be anything to gain by focusing more of your attention on macro, because it wont give you any advantage over people who never move their screen from thir army.
please explain what is wrong with using a 'crappy gimmick'? you keep saying that because you have no real argument and the phrase has a negative connotation that you hope will make people dislike it for no rational reason. it is a decent solution that addresses a problem, a problem that everyone but you (even blizzard) agrees existed.
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/Makes Bisu jaw drop face
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i dont have a valid cd key so could someone reply to
Most Pro players that had concerns about the MBS, autocast and Auto mineral like the new mechanics now actually will be enough to replace the building clickfeast. See www.teamliquid.net's forum for more details, even progamers that live in SouthKorea like Idra (also posted on the forums )thinks the new mechanics are excellent. So it looks promising. [ Post edited by Sallee ]
with "i dont think theyre excellent. bringing back single building selection and manual macro would have been excellent. these are a passable solution to a problem that shouldnt even exist, but as is it seems its the best we're going to get."
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Im afraid that SC2 will be very much like warcraft 3. Being able to hotkey all your producing buildings to one single key is really going to take the level of the game down. Bye bye 500 apm players that were awesome to me. Now I will be able to play as well as them with my poor 80 apm.
There is no depth on a game like that.
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On February 19 2009 23:06 ven_ wrote:Show nested quote +Unfortunately the Mule is still in the prototype phase and has a limited battery supply (timed life). All units magically have unlimited ammunition and fuel and now some stupid mining cart that gets dropped from outer space runs out of battery after a short amount of time? That's your explanation for them having timed life? Are you kidding me? I'm all for macro mechanics that intensify and diversify the game but if they're like this I'd rather pass.
Reason why units have unlimited ammunitions and fuels are because of supply depot, MULE most likely won't count as supply user, so it make sense its battery will eventually runs out.
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Oh please, show me an RTS game where people have played to the point of perfection that nothing could be done to improve the win chance.... Increasing the skill ceiling is trivial in a real time game: just make it faster. (which can be done by things as trivial as a patch) Its like requiring people to use a DDR pad to move in a FPS as opposed to wasd, since when there is a requirement to move the skill ceiling by that method?
The real issue is strategically degenerate game where every game and every player use the same strategy and mechanics and is thus boring. That is more a issue of balance and depth than mechanics, as classic board games that don't require the DDR have space for individualized styles even without a real time element. On the other hand, DDR don't really have styles since there is one most efficient way that people can move to complete the game.
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in sc it turned out that the macro oriented play style was easier to do and more effective, but ideally both could be equally as strong. thats what we should be aiming for with sc2.
Well, the hardcore players of SC1 (like here) would certainly perfer this, but it hardly means that a micro game is "worthless" and "skill-less."
If that wasn't the case, every D- player can beat Jaedong in ZvZ and pull July and Boxers out of their ass. There is alot of space in low econ play that is unexplored and I doubt a perfect player of low econ SC exists.
For every point of APM that is removed from macro, one is added to something else, may it be the option to pull boxer lockdowns or dual muta harass. Whether those things work lies in the greater balance of the game and the focus on isolated elements don't mean much. There are more units, more spells and more terrain interactions in the new game for fast and skilled players to find things to do and differentiate themselves.
If you ask me, whats needed is a set of interesting and balanced things to build unique strategies and styles around, and what they are exactly isn't that important since it is a new game.
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Scanner Sweep: using a satellite in high-orbit, the Terrans reveal a large area anywhere on the map and detect all cloaked units within the target area.
Does that mean terran wasn't originally going to have scan?
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On February 20 2009 14:07 deathgod6 wrote:Scanner Sweep: using a satellite in high-orbit, the Terrans reveal a large area anywhere on the map and detect all cloaked units within the target area. Does that mean terran wasn't originally going to have scan?
No. The command center upgrade that previously had comsat used to be called something different. Both that old upgrade and the new name now both have comsat.
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I figured the kinds of mining boosts they gave to toss and terran would more likely have been given to zerg...even with the queen larva thing, zerg is stiiiill boned economically...):
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On February 20 2009 14:50 PH wrote:
I figured the kinds of mining boosts they gave to toss and terran would more likely have been given to zerg...even with the queen larva thing, zerg is stiiiill boned economically...):
I guess drones mine faster on creep lol
I think queens/creep tumors would be a lot more important if creep did more than just make your units move faster, i think it still needs an extra something (maybe regen health faster or something like that). I like the idea of constructing/controlling the Z base with the queen, I just want to see a little more added to it to make it more important.
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Those swarm thingies that the queen produces. Are they permanent or are they on a set timer and vanish after a certain amount of time?
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On February 20 2009 17:33 Integra wrote:
Those swarm thingies that the queen produces. Are they permanent or are they on a set timer and vanish after a certain amount of time?
Do you mean Razor Plague?
Razor Plague: with a great breath the queen exhales a cloud of tiny Zerg creatures that create a vast swarm nearby. These creatures attack all enemy creatures within their swarm, doing additional damage to biological targets. What makes it worse is the Zerg player can control the swarm, moving it around to attack whatever enemies he wishes until the swarm becomes exhausted and dissipates.
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On February 20 2009 14:07 deathgod6 wrote:Scanner Sweep: using a satellite in high-orbit, the Terrans reveal a large area anywhere on the map and detect all cloaked units within the target area. Does that mean terran wasn't originally going to have scan?
It was always there. Sadly, the most interesting "new" mechanic introduced for Terran in this batch is the more than 10 years old scanner.
May I ask all the people which think the new mechanic are actually good - which of you are going to use this calldown aditional supply nonsense? Because it use the same energy like scanner, I see no reason why don't use scan (or save the energy for future use) and just grab one of my scvs and build a new supply depot.
It seems like the scanner will be even more needed than in BW. Lurkers now outragne static detectors, invisible banshee could probably wipe out static detectors in matter of seconds, protoss players now could make any unit invisible for some time from the beginnig of the game (almost)... You either need Nighthawk (which isn't exactly cheep) on the right place in the right time or you need scan. On the other hand, Terran players will probably have less scanners than before, because you cannot lift-of your CC after upgrade, so probably no more scanners in dangerous expansions.
So who would ever wanted to use his precious scaner energy for something like 2 additional supply, which can be easily supplemeneted by builing another depot?
Now if the additional supply allows you to go - even temporary - over your supply limit, even the max 200 limit, that would be interesting. But as for now, it seems like the most pitiful ability in SC universe.
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On February 20 2009 20:40 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 14:07 deathgod6 wrote:Scanner Sweep: using a satellite in high-orbit, the Terrans reveal a large area anywhere on the map and detect all cloaked units within the target area. Does that mean terran wasn't originally going to have scan? It was always there. Sadly, the most interesting "new" mechanic introduced for Terran in this batch is the more than 10 years old scanner. May I ask all the people which think the new mechanic are actually good - which of you are going to use this calldown aditional supply nonsense? Because it use the same energy like scanner, I see no reason why don't use scan (or save the energy for future use) and just grab one of my scvs and build a new supply depot.
presumably the calldown is instantaneous. having to wait for a missed supply depot to finish when you're doing a timing rush can cost you the game.
so ya its a shitty mechanic, the only way its gonna be used is as a failsafe for fucking up. but it would be useful in those situations.
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On February 20 2009 20:44 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 20:40 adelarge wrote:On February 20 2009 14:07 deathgod6 wrote:Scanner Sweep: using a satellite in high-orbit, the Terrans reveal a large area anywhere on the map and detect all cloaked units within the target area. Does that mean terran wasn't originally going to have scan? It was always there. Sadly, the most interesting "new" mechanic introduced for Terran in this batch is the more than 10 years old scanner. May I ask all the people which think the new mechanic are actually good - which of you are going to use this calldown aditional supply nonsense? Because it use the same energy like scanner, I see no reason why don't use scan (or save the energy for future use) and just grab one of my scvs and build a new supply depot. presumably the calldown is instantaneous. having to wait for a missed supply depot to finish when you're doing a timing rush can cost you the game. so ya its a shitty mechanic, the only way its gonna be used is as a failsafe for fucking up. but it would be useful in those situations.
Well, the calldown of mules isn't, but yeah, I can see some possibilites here.
But still, I would rather not fuck up and have scans left in case he decides to counter my push with DT's, burrowed banelings or burrow micro with roaches...
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Why wouldn't calldown supply be useful? I can see it generating many new timings for pushes. You might as well say that there's no need for the gas drone trick for zerg when they can just morph another overlord. Or, for that matter, that you have no need to build 2 gateways when you can build two zealots from one.
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i think the fact that it draws on the same resource as scanning is gonna limit that severely. the really delicate timing pushes, where an extra 2 supply here and there would make a real difference, are almost always pretty early in the game, you're not likely to have a nighthawk for mobile detection by that point, so you're gonna need all the scans you can get with threats like burrowed banelings and dts.
and for later game timings like a 2/1 push with a vessel tvp or something, things arent as precise supply wise since its alot longer buildup and theres more variables going into little things like supply, and you're still gonna want the scans for checking on your opponents timings, since again there are alot more variables you have to account for (how much is he expoing, is he teching, whats he teching, when did he add gates, etc)
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On February 20 2009 21:25 IdrA wrote:
i think the fact that it draws on the same resource as scanning is gonna limit that severely. the really delicate timing pushes, where an extra 2 supply here and there would make a real difference, are almost always pretty early in the game, you're not likely to have a nighthawk for mobile detection by that point, so you're gonna need all the scans you can get with threats like burrowed banelings and dts.
and for later game timings like a 2/1 push with a vessel tvp or something, things arent as precise supply wise since its alot longer buildup and theres more variables going into little things like supply, and you're still gonna want the scans for checking on your opponents timings, since again there are alot more variables you have to account for (how much is he expoing, is he teching, whats he teching, when did he add gates, etc)
Well that is the balancing act in it. It´s quite obvious between Sweep and MULE - if you think you can manage without sweep that extra energy turns into extra income.
Extra supplys do have factors going for it but IMHO 2 is a bit weak. With 4 extra supply you´d trade 50 energy for 50 Minerals (1/2 Depo) instantly.
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I agree that the call down additional supplies aspect is kind of stupid. However, they will be changing this idea as they test it out and see no one using it. Expect it to either be replaced, removed, or given a cheaper cost to make it more usable.
I'd prefer being able to call down some sort of drone which can decrease the building time for an scv to make a building. Make it so it can be called while a building is under construction, and speed build time for 1 building by 25% or so. Basically, you call it down, and it hovers over a building and helps with the construction, then, when the building is done, it takes off.
Thats far more useful than "call down additional supplies".
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On February 20 2009 23:05 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 21:25 IdrA wrote:
i think the fact that it draws on the same resource as scanning is gonna limit that severely. the really delicate timing pushes, where an extra 2 supply here and there would make a real difference, are almost always pretty early in the game, you're not likely to have a nighthawk for mobile detection by that point, so you're gonna need all the scans you can get with threats like burrowed banelings and dts.
and for later game timings like a 2/1 push with a vessel tvp or something, things arent as precise supply wise since its alot longer buildup and theres more variables going into little things like supply, and you're still gonna want the scans for checking on your opponents timings, since again there are alot more variables you have to account for (how much is he expoing, is he teching, whats he teching, when did he add gates, etc) Well that is the balancing act in it. It´s quite obvious between Sweep and MULE - if you think you can manage without sweep that extra energy turns into extra income. Extra supplys do have factors going for it but IMHO 2 is a bit weak. With 4 extra supply you´d trade 50 energy for 50 Minerals (1/2 Depo) instantly.
my problem is that dark pylon seems much-much stronger.
dark pylon is really not expensive, and you can build several of it.
dark pylon abilities:
faster mining
cloaking ---> this is for some cheese stuff, not necessary to use
energy transfer ---> situational, well it is not really used in early game i believe
terran stuff abilities:
mule ----> it should be used as much as possible
scan ----> this is a often used ability too
extra supply ---> it shouldnt be used if everything is going as your plan
while the dark pylon's main ability is the faster mining, and the other functions dont even have to be used, the scan and mule are both very important to use, hence the protoss can make his mining constantly faster, while the terran is more limited. I didnt even mention that the terran building is limited one per command center, while you can build a lot of dark pylons (I think protoss players will build at least two of them at their nexus).
What I like that zerg didn't get a "faster mining ability", so they are once again determined to expo more, like in SC1, but for different reasons.
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On February 20 2009 23:05 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2009 21:25 IdrA wrote:
i think the fact that it draws on the same resource as scanning is gonna limit that severely. the really delicate timing pushes, where an extra 2 supply here and there would make a real difference, are almost always pretty early in the game, you're not likely to have a nighthawk for mobile detection by that point, so you're gonna need all the scans you can get with threats like burrowed banelings and dts.
and for later game timings like a 2/1 push with a vessel tvp or something, things arent as precise supply wise since its alot longer buildup and theres more variables going into little things like supply, and you're still gonna want the scans for checking on your opponents timings, since again there are alot more variables you have to account for (how much is he expoing, is he teching, whats he teching, when did he add gates, etc) Well that is the balancing act in it. It´s quite obvious between Sweep and MULE - if you think you can manage without sweep that extra energy turns into extra income. Extra supplys do have factors going for it but IMHO 2 is a bit weak. With 4 extra supply you´d trade 50 energy for 50 Minerals (1/2 Depo) instantly.
It would still be an extremely boring ability... Just try to compare this new mechanics. Invisible Carriers or Collossi combined with the ability to replenish your caster's energy instatly on the one side...and the ability to make 10 supply from 8 on the other.
Does it seem like a fair update to anybody?
(Not to mention they use such a cool mechanic like drop-pods for what? Sending down crippled SCVs which even couldn't built anything and have timed life?)
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On February 20 2009 23:32 Santrega wrote:
I'd prefer being able to call down some sort of drone which can decrease the building time for an scv to make a building. Make it so it can be called while a building is under construction, and speed build time for 1 building by 25% or so. Basically, you call it down, and it hovers over a building and helps with the construction, then, when the building is done, it takes off.
Thats far more useful than "call down additional supplies".
Sounds good. Much more interesting and flexible. Allows you to for example faster expoing with building CC quicker or quickly add factories before timing attack and other stuff.
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Additional supplies as is now, is almost useless. The only use I can imagine is that if the supply have significant hp, than it'd work as a insta wall that costs nothing and can be summoned quickly, especially if it is anywhere near cheap enough to be compared to normal supply.
Linking scan energy and macro spells really restricts what one can do with the idea. One can't make the building with low energy cap (say, 30 energy) to push the player constantly use them unlike more independent buildings, and a large pool of mana means it is not so time critical, and bad control only means looser timing as opposed to wasted time.
Its probably better to de-link scan and macro spells, by making one group be timer based ability (thus costing no energy) or just two sets of energy pool.
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It perhaps one can reorient terran into the base creep race with instant drop supply wall, flying buildings and more accessible (cheaper, lower tech) nighthawk spamming the map filled of mines, turrets and walls. Make nighthawk detection cost energy if it result in too much detectors (or just make mines really cheap energy wise, and turrets costs mostly energy than resources)
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On February 21 2009 01:05 SWPIGWANG wrote:
Additional supplies as is now, is almost useless. The only use I can imagine is that if the supply have significant hp, than it'd work as a insta wall that costs nothing and can be summoned quickly, especially if it is anywhere near cheap enough to be compared to normal supply.
Linking scan energy and macro spells really restricts what one can do with the idea. One can't make the building with low energy cap (say, 30 energy) to push the player constantly use them unlike more independent buildings, and a large pool of mana means it is not so time critical, and bad control only means looser timing as opposed to wasted time.
Its probably better to de-link scan and macro spells, by making one group be timer based ability (thus costing no energy) or just two sets of energy pool.
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It perhaps one can reorient terran into the base creep race with instant drop supply wall, flying buildings and more accessible (cheaper, lower tech) nighthawk spamming the map filled of mines, turrets and walls. Make nighthawk detection cost energy if it result in too much detectors (or just make mines really cheap energy wise, and turrets costs mostly energy than resources)
i thought about that too, but if a game came down to counting scans (although mothership and vulkan are same level tech, so i guess burrow rushes or something) and the terran has too many because of the low cost seems as if there's not as much trade off
it would seem using the macro mechanic to help go for 'faster' air tech scout vs using the energy for scans appears to be the current trade, however i haven't even seen it so my point being i think it's way too early to shun it off
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On February 21 2009 01:05 SWPIGWANG wrote:
The only use I can imagine is that if the supply have significant hp, than it'd work as a insta wall that costs nothing and can be summoned quickly, especially if it is anywhere near cheap enough to be compared to normal supply.
I don't think it works like that. You have to target already built supply depot. There is no room for creativity, you just decide which depot would you like to upgrade a then spend precious scan energy on making it provide 10 supply instead of 8.
This abillity has "fail" written all over it.
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On February 20 2009 14:50 PH wrote:
I figured the kinds of mining boosts they gave to toss and terran would more likely have been given to zerg...even with the queen larva thing, zerg is stiiiill boned economically...):
I think Zerg actually got a pretty good deal, free extra larva means being able to easily produce drones and armies at the same time. Top zergs have to walk a razors edge with not producing to many drones or not producing to much army, the extra larve gives them much more room to work with.
I think of it more as a permanent econ boost rather than the temporary ones Terrans and protoss have to work with. Zerg are going to want Queens anyway since their other abilities are very useful. The abilities of the other races may seem better, but we still don't know things like how big the AoE for the mining bonus is, or how long its lasts. Sure you can spam dark pylons, but if the effect doesn't last long your going to be burning through energy pretty quickly.
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looks like the overseer was downgraded
lololol
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On February 20 2009 21:25 IdrA wrote:
i think the fact that it draws on the same resource as scanning is gonna limit that severely. the really delicate timing pushes, where an extra 2 supply here and there would make a real difference, are almost always pretty early in the game, you're not likely to have a nighthawk for mobile detection by that point, so you're gonna need all the scans you can get with threats like burrowed banelings and dts.
and for later game timings like a 2/1 push with a vessel tvp or something, things arent as precise supply wise since its alot longer buildup and theres more variables going into little things like supply, and you're still gonna want the scans for checking on your opponents timings, since again there are alot more variables you have to account for (how much is he expoing, is he teching, whats he teching, when did he add gates, etc)
Another use though is for recovery from bad situations - like oops reaver drop killed those 2 clustered supply depots.
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another point for people complaining about balance...the concept has just been introduced, there is plnety of time to work on balancing them. as of now dark pylons are very massable yes. Possible solutions...decrease the amount of supply they give, increase the energy cost of photon charge, decrease lenght of the effect, increase the actual cost of the building. Easy.
Terrans, they could give the mule the ability to construct buildings, maybe at a faster rate. you could scan an island, drop a mule, and suddenly have a hidden island expo and as far as your opponent knows you haven't even left your base. Or just mess with the Mules timer or energy cost.
Zerg I still feel is alright as is, but if it turns out they need a little extra help. decrease the production time of units built with Queen produced larva, or give a discount on price of units (including the drone)
nothing is balanced when its first revealed, give it a fair chance
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The people that call the new macro mechanics gimmicky and unintuitive really don't know what they are talking about. The new macro stuff does much more to the gameplay than to just affect macro. Like mentioned earlier, mule drops in a tank push will be sweet :D
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I'm actually pleasantly surprised. Perhaps I shouldn't be, but at least all three mechanics require you to watching your army for a bit you attend to them. I was afraid it would be like "Summon Uber Worker" every thirty 3 minutes that would then go automine like the rest and all you would have to do it hit an extra key every once in a while when you spammed your normal workers. Now you have to do an AOE spell, cast on a building, etc.
Of course, the big question is how often you can use this stuff. If you have to MULE every 30 seconds, that's like almost like having to go back to your rax. If it's every 5 minutes I dunno how much of a difference it's actually going to make.
Hopefully the beta at least get something reasonable although I doubt it will really push a pro-gamer's macro.
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On February 21 2009 06:42 Strayline wrote:
Of course, the big question is how often you can use this stuff. If you have to MULE every 30 seconds, that's like almost like having to go back to your rax. If it's every 5 minutes I dunno how much of a difference it's actually going to make. The scan and the extra supply both cost 50 energy, the mule proly costs about that to compete. So if you have multiple command centers you could proly use it even more often than 1 ever 30sec.
edit: lol it's my birthday, if it wasn't for that icon by my name I would never remember ^^
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I really like the direction this is heading. It allows for even greater distinction between micro and macro players. Micro players will hardly ever have to look at their base's with mbs and automine, while macro players who babysit their dark pylons, mules and extra larva will be able to produce massive economies unheard of in BW.
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overcomplicated bullshit
simpler is better.
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On February 21 2009 18:49 stack wrote:
overcomplicated bullshit
simpler is better.
Good point. We should remove the mothership to balance it out.
OH and the thor and the night hawk and the nullifier and the infestor and the....
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So far I'm liking these new mechanics they sound alright hopefully they turn out ok.
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On February 20 2009 10:56 IdrA wrote:i dont have a valid cd key so could someone reply to Show nested quote +Most Pro players that had concerns about the MBS, autocast and Auto mineral like the new mechanics now actually will be enough to replace the building clickfeast. See www.teamliquid.net's forum for more details, even progamers that live in SouthKorea like Idra (also posted on the forums )thinks the new mechanics are excellent. So it looks promising. [ Post edited by Sallee ] for me in that blizzard poll thread with "i dont think theyre excellent. bringing back single building selection and manual macro would have been excellent. these are a passable solution to a problem that shouldnt even exist, but as is it seems its the best we're going to get."
Mod edit: I'm not that big on spoilers, but when the event ended just a few hours ago I think you should at least spoiler this stuff.. - FrozenArbiter
+ Show Spoiler [Broodsport spoiler] +
Could someone also reply to that, that IdrA is only pro in talking big, which he proves again and again especially in TSLs, Liquibitions, and all other tournaments he ever attended?! Thanks.
Edit: Yea sry thats a little off topic :p Was in rage because IdrA lost again i with that i lost a bet...
Edit2: Yea you're right FA, didn't think about that, sry
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pretty much info in this q&A
I like the new things, but the supply will be used to give it more hitpoints only if a few stalkers try to break the terran wall imho
not much used
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How about splitting the CC upgrade, this way the terran will have to make to devote the CC to econ/maphack/defense. The supply calldown is pretty weak, so it can go to the defense upgrade, this way there won't be a superior energy requiring ability in the same upgrade and the calldown will actually be used.
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Another thing to note is that with the Sensor towers terran are no longer so dependant on Scanner Sweep for intel.
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On February 19 2009 04:28 Teejing wrote:
Everything is better than a wc3 hero for Zerg. =)
I didn't realize war3 heroes were non-unique, increased unit production and were fragile and easily killable. I also didn't know that queens got stronger and gained levels for killing enemies.
Wait a sec, how is the queen at all like a war3 hero again?
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On February 19 2009 09:30 fusionsdf wrote:
I think its pretty obvious which is more intuitive. On one side you have the concept that selecting a single building will allow you to do something with that building. This has been in RTS since the early 90's (since the birth of rts) because its so intuitive.
Actually when I played StarCraft for the first time nearly a decade ago I remember thinking 'wtf I can't select multiple buildings.' Obviously that didn't stop me from playing the game back then, but when War 3 came out I remember thinking of how ironic that the game with no macro had MBS and SC didn't have it.
Are the new mechanics a bit clunky? Yes. They need a little bit of refinement. But I think you're being a bit presumptuous to think that 'Using an ability from dark pylon to make my probes mine faster' is a concept far beyond the capability of the average human being or something. There's a lot of things you wouldn't know in SC if you didn't first play a tutorial, read the manual or heck, just experimented by yourself.
Ultimately I think players should be rewarded for having good apm AND good judgment when it comes to macro (Should I use this energy for mules or save it for scan? Should I use this energy to cloak or power my probes?) Not to mention the options, strategies and build orders these new mechanics add. The thought of savior with several queens and hatcheries massing larvae... scary. Compared to SC:BW where players are simply rewarded more for APM than judgment in terms of macro.
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thats not really true, these mechanics may exaggerate the decision making process but significant thinking does go into having really good macro in sc1. oov's mechanics werent great, macrowise. he didnt constantly spend perfectly and he missed depots and whatnot, but he played so smart in terms of when to power and when he could fit in another expo and when to add production facilities that he always had more units than people who never went over 200 minerals.
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Haven't played SC2 yet, but Zerg is really impressing me the most. It may very well be balanced, but Protoss and Terran have lost a lot of units and abilities that really defined the races to me and haven't been replaced with anything that cool. I was looking forward to the collosus, but hearing that it's garbage in the current build really dissapointed me.
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EPT
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