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On November 11 2011 20:38 Asday wrote:
Had he gone for blink instead of charge, and had less awful observer positioning, he could very easily have blinked into your main, and very easily killed maybe your OC, definitely 3 tech labs, maybe 3 star ports, and maybe even a starport chilling in your natural. I didn't understand his build at all, but in a lot of games, I see you dead as shit, but your opponent backs off, confused by the PF, or is doing a fuckawful build, or something.
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Yep, I really think dealing with blink stalkers into the main is the hardest to defend. I do Sky Terran quite a lot vs P but previously pretty much only a 2 base all in with marines / banshee ravens. I really like the idea of this mass PF expansion style, but I really dunno how its possible to defend the main so well a P can force an engagement. especially with 1-2 cols to spot.
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Awesome Guide, nice work there !
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On November 09 2011 23:31 Reason.SC2 wrote:
Another Terran gimmick to deal with on the ladder.. thanks.
Why is it that so many T's enjoy doing strats that get roflstomped if scouted and lead to a high percentage of auto-wins if not scouted? So not the right approach....
hahahahaha, why is it toss QQ's the most out of all 3 races?
1. It's not exactly a gimmick, it's just merely a different approach for Terrans tackling the T v P matchup.
2. It doesn't really matter if this build gets scouted because;
- it looks very similar to a 1-1-1
- Toss are just a bit generally slow out of the 3 races when trying to figure out on how to adapt to different play styles from other races. This is why you see in that youtube replay and from what people are saying here, the toss just keeps building gateway units. It only takes half a brain to work out gateway units won't do much at all against this if you haven't done an all-in already. Keep in mind, because you think it's a 1-1-1 you'll be waiting for the all-in whilst Terran is just expoing it up.
This is a very nice guide btw, it's on my to-do-list.
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On November 11 2011 21:56 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 23:31 Reason.SC2 wrote:
Another Terran gimmick to deal with on the ladder.. thanks.
Why is it that so many T's enjoy doing strats that get roflstomped if scouted and lead to a high percentage of auto-wins if not scouted? So not the right approach.... hahahahaha, why is it toss QQ's the most out of all 3 races? 1. It's not exactly a gimmick, it's just merely a different approach for Terrans tackling the T v P matchup. 2. It doesn't really matter if this build gets scouted because; - it looks very similar to a 1-1-1 - Toss are just a bit generally slow out of the 3 races when trying to figure out on how to adapt to different play styles from other races. This is why you see in that youtube replay and from what people are saying here, the toss just keeps building gateway units. It only takes half a brain to work out gateway units won't do much at all against this if you haven't done an all-in already. Keep in mind, because you think it's a 1-1-1 you'll be waiting for the all-in whilst Terran is just expoing it up. This is a very nice guide btw, it's on my to-do-list.
P's like this are just embarrassing, if you MM they cry that T are boring and do the same thing all the time, if you 1-1-1 they cry OP, if you try something else like sky terran you are abusing a gimmick. What do they want?
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Hey Yoshi, great guide. This seems to resemble a TvP version of IEchoic's TvT sky terran play.
I know you want to build PF's and expand all over the map so your expansions can defend themselves to an extent. Have you ever tried macro OC's just for the mules? On the third mule they pay for themselves. Having a bunch of macro OC's would allow you to mine out less defended bases more quickly, reducing your opponent's ability to kill an expansion and then plop their own down in its place. In base trade scenarios they would also allow you to call down supply on the supply depots at the bases not under attack so you never get supply blocked.
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On November 11 2011 22:23 kmeanster wrote:
Hey Yoshi, great guide. This seems to resemble a TvP version of IEchoic's TvT sky terran play.
I know you want to build PF's and expand all over the map so your expansions can defend themselves to an extent. Have you ever tried macro OC's just for the mules? On the third mule they pay for themselves. Having a bunch of macro OC's would allow you to mine out less defended bases more quickly, reducing your opponent's ability to kill an expansion and then plop their own down in its place. In base trade scenarios they would also allow you to call down supply on the supply depots at the bases not under attack so you never get supply blocked.
I don't think you need the mules for minerals, but once you're rolling in money I guess you could start trading SCVs for army. But you're probably so far ahead at that point anyway that you don't really need to
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On November 11 2011 19:14 rebotfc wrote:
How do you deal with blink stalkers at the back of your main, avoiding the PF at the nat?
Base race. Snipe his Nexus (he should have two) then his Robotics Facility if its building, otherwise Cybernetics Core first. You'll be ahead since you should have a third base and he shouldn't. He has to kill 1 vulnerable base and 2 defended PFs while you only have to kill 2 vulnerable bases.
On November 11 2011 20:38 Asday wrote:
Ok, so watched a few of your games, (the one on metal where you PF and sensor tower near his gold comes especially to mind), and there are times where you're just... Well, fucking dead.
For some reason, the dude you were against did some sloppy 5 gate double upgrade with immortals timing push, and MASSIVELY skimped on cannons, and got charge. And never spent chrono. Still, though, you had 4 banshees and that's it, at one point, and he had a buttload of stalkers, and some worthless immortals and gateway units.
Had he gone for blink instead of charge, and had less awful observer positioning, he could very easily have blinked into your main, and very easily killed maybe your OC, definitely 3 tech labs, maybe 3 star ports, and maybe even a starport chilling in your natural. I didn't understand his build at all, but in a lot of games, I see you dead as shit, but your opponent backs off, confused by the PF, or is doing a fuckawful build, or something.
I'm fairly convinced they can take little to no damage in the midgame (before you switch into HEAVY Raven mode), by simply having 1 or 2 cannons peppered around bases, and warping in stalkers, while being active with a super mobile force of blink stalkers around the map, buying him the time and footing to get onto 3 base more favourably than you, (chronoprobes), and maybe even 4 base. From here, they have a robo and +2, (or +1 +1), leaving them open to transition into pretty much any endgamey unit mix they want, which forces you to transition into something more substantial, or you'll just lose shit, which is much harder for you than them.
Thoughts?
(Also, you say Cloak -> Corvid -> HSM, but I only ever see Corvid appearing mid to lategame, way after HSM, after the Raven powering, and sometimes (I think), after the fusion core. What's going on?)
(Also also, what's your fusion core timing/trigger, and why do you get behemoth?)
Thank you.
Yup, the point of showing that replay was less to show that "omg this strategy is so good lol!" but rather that it is very effective on the ladder since most opponents are clueless (most as in like, every single one I've encountered). Well I disagree it did seem like he used a lot of chrono, at least more than others. Most would just forget about chrono'ing gates and etc in the lategame. But anyways that's not important so
First of all thanks for watching more than one replay heheh! Can get lots more feedback this way. Well what I have to say to them blinking in your main is similar to what I said to rebotfc. You should be ahead. Also, your buildings should be split up (try to fit as many buildings in the natural as possible once it's set up) so that losing your main isn't actually that important. If you kill his base he can't remake an army to kill your remaining PFs.
The problem with being "mobile" with his stalkers is that it means his base is left undefended. He can make all the cannons he wants to burn my PDD and damage or even kill my Banshees, but he'll be burning a lot of minerals too. As Protoss, a Stalker is 125 minerals and 50 gas. On 1 base, you only mine 816 minerals and 210 ish gas. If he builds 4 Stalkers a minute, he needs 500 minerals. He can make 2 Cannons per base per minute considering he doesn't need more gateways/pylons or any other buildings. So if you're producing 6 Banshees a minute (no PDD), you're fighting 1 cannon at a time with 6 Banshees, maybe 2 Cannons if he really put that many. 6 Banshees can 2 shot a canon; lets say he has shit ton of cannons or your micro isn't the best so you have to fight 2 cannons at a time. You'll take about 6 individual cannon shots, which may or may not kill 1 Banshee (he most likely won't be focus firing with his cannons). You should easily be able to start sniping his Nexuses with only killing 1-2 cannons max, else it means he put like 8 cannons surrounding his Nexus, not even protecting his probes. He'd need like 12 cannons to protect his probes too. But such high cannon count would cut into his stalkers or stop him from attempting to take a third base.
Math aside, I just don't think cannons will be enough. The idea is that your air units are sitting in safe air space right next to his base so once he moves out, he'll lose a Nexus by the time he reaches 1 of your bases.
Hm well the "order" I presented in the guide is what the "ideal" order would be. So far example, since you don't really need Ravens, you can wait longer and get Corvid Reactor first instead. But getting Seeker Missile can be useful before that since maybe you just don't have the gas and/or can't look that far into the long run.
Fusion Core. Basically I haven't put much thought into this. Usually when I get a Fusion Core I am just messing around and having fun. Actually in pretty much all my ladder games I am messing around having fun. I don't try hard like I would in a TvZ or TvT since I know I'm just roflstomping my Protoss opponent. This ends up with things like bad macro, completely messing up my build and delaying the first banshee like 30 seconds, etc., etc., but I get away with it since the opponent is just so clueless/confused. Not the best way to practice haha. But that's not to say that BCs aren't useful. Since they're so supply efficient, I usually get Fusion Core when I have pretty much taken my entire side of the map, and maybe even 1 base on his side. Most times it'll be 4 base vs 6-7 base. I know that gas isn't a problem since I have so many base, so the only reason not to get BCs is cus they take so long to build. But, since I have so many Starports and am close to or at 200/200, remaxing on BCs is really strong. So, I don't go "I want BCs to counter this, this" it's like remaxing on a 200/200 army of banelings as Zerg, I guess. You just need something to spend your money on and capitalize on your much larger economy xD.
Behemoth Reactor. I don't put much thought into this, but usually I'm so rich I just get it anyways. When I am close to max and decide it is a good time to get BCs, usually I'll still have my air fleet for a lot longer since it just flies around harassing, so I get Behemoth first since it seems it won't be a while until I can start to replace my army with BCs. Why not just get Fusion Core earlier? Well BCs aren't "needed", so if suddenly I am in a tough spot, it would be a waste of 150 gas. This is the way i think, at least.
I guess one trigger for getting BCs would be if you've killed the forges even once throughout the game. It will mean that instead of him being at possibly 2 attack 0 shield 2 armor, he will be at 1 attack 0 shield 1 armor while you're at 2/2. BCs shoot 6 times per 'attack', so this is HUGE especially since half of a Stalker's health is Shield. Likewise, BCs work very well against Protoss air if he tries to transition into air later, since he will be so far behind in upgrades. With 3/3 + Yamato you can deal with equal Void Rays in cost. So I guess one gameplan you could have is to prioritize killing Forges and focus on getting BCs earlier to capitalize on that as fighting units. Actually with 7 BCs you can yamato a Nexus to harass, lol! Or Forge/otherbuildings
@kmeanster
I haven't thought too much about that kmeanster, but I do get lots of OCs lategame when I have thousands of minerals to burn. I guess you could substitute some of your expansion PFs earlier on for OCs so that you can get even more bases up quicker. It is risky but with the "proper judgement", I guess it would be better. After all, the way progamers play is to play in such a way so that, assuming their judgements are correct, they can cut as many corners as possible. Of course if you mess up you might lose, but then you'll learn and make an even better judgement next time. But there is a lot of other things to work on with this style so if you don't want to worry about it you should just make PFs. And also each PF is 150 gas after all, and when you're talking about mass ravens over a long period of time, each additional raven you get increases the power of the raven ball exponentially because of the energy.
I saw 1 replay of a GM terran player (NA) doing an almost pure air strategy. He opened up with (i forget what exactly) a few marines and marauders, brought a few SCVs, and made 2 bunkers at Protoss' natural expansion to try to kill it. He was really close but the Protoss saved it. Anyways, behind this he was teching to banshees and getting an expansion. He didn't use PFs like me, all his expansions were OCs.
But yea like Quotidian said, all the Protoss I face are so easy I don't need to worry about that xD Though, I probably should if I want to improve efficiently. Also, I'll check out that replay once i get home today xD I'm at school lol.
Also just want to point out guys, most people use gimmicky incorrectly. A gimmick is something that achieves the same purpose/goal in a different, but not necessarily better, way. So although you could see playing a different style as "gimmicky", since the purpose/goal is still to win, it's how you get to the victory that's important in Starcraft. With that said, it would make more sense if you look at the purpose/goal as how you achieve victory. So in this case, playing a different style (bio vs mech vs air) is NOT gimmicky at all. A gimmick would be like doing a gas cancel opening as zerg, which may or may not (usually not) be more economical, just cus it looks cool.
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On November 11 2011 23:38 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 22:23 kmeanster wrote:
Hey Yoshi, great guide. This seems to resemble a TvP version of IEchoic's TvT sky terran play.
I know you want to build PF's and expand all over the map so your expansions can defend themselves to an extent. Have you ever tried macro OC's just for the mules? On the third mule they pay for themselves. Having a bunch of macro OC's would allow you to mine out less defended bases more quickly, reducing your opponent's ability to kill an expansion and then plop their own down in its place. In base trade scenarios they would also allow you to call down supply on the supply depots at the bases not under attack so you never get supply blocked. I don't think you need the mules for minerals, but once you're rolling in money I guess you could start trading SCVs for army. But you're probably so far ahead at that point anyway that you don't really need to
I dunno, I never feel right when I PFort the natural. :\ Your income curve is just to shallow.
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I also play a Sky Terran style, so I checked out this one, watched the replay against Eidersuchtig, and I gotta say I didn't like the opening. 2port on one base is gimmicky, you had a very low marine count, the starports were right beside each other so they were both scouted immediately, the expo was late, and was PF so you had really low income. Your raw production was low until you got the 3rd base, and the fact that you kept saccing your air force into his main kept your army really small. If toss was more on top of scouting, he would have denied your 3rd and you would have been choked out.
I think the best opening for Sky Terran is a 1 rax FE. Here's a rough build order of mine
10 supply
12 rax
13 refinery
16 orbital
16 marine
17 marine
17 supply (food counts discontinued)
no scvs cut at all
after the 2nd marine, build a reactor, constant marine production after
@400 min, cc inbase
factory
@ cc 100%, orbital
@ factory 100%
2 starports, 2nd refinery, hellion
@ starports 100%, 2 techlabs
Build bunkers as needed, scout with the hellion and scans, take the nat, take the 3rd and 4th gas. Spread out the starports, look for the observer (the timing is pretty consistent) and kill it. If you don't completely screw up, he is only going to see one starport and going to prepare for 1-2 banshees. Build 2 banshees, get cloak, 2 more banshees. Rally them to different points. Cloak should be done the same time as the second pair of banshees and you can do a 2 pronged attack, a concentrated attack if his AA is weak, whichever will cause the most damage. After the 4th gas is up I throw down 2 more starports, 1 tech lab, and either keep the other naked or swap it on to my reactor if needed. I can do constant CC production and take my 3rd long before you could, with a more robust air army to boot.
This opening gives you more income, a bigger standing army faster, and a stronger initial attack than what you did. A PF at the nat is massively overkill for defense and you didn't have the income to take a 3rd for a long time. With my opening, between sniping observers with vikings, PDD, and faster upgrades, I can take the toss army head on far earlier than you could, have massive economic advantages, and I attribute that almost entirely to your opening basically crippling you.
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
But you cannot harass with this build - you give up early pressure and let the Toss freely do stuff for a longer time.
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I could swear I played you doing this style, but I don't seem to have the replay saved, am I crazy or did that happen? name saer on battlenet
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Yoshi, why do I always find myself downloading mass replays of yours trying to learn your builds? 
Upload a replay pack already!
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Very in-depth guide. I like it a lot, and thanks for sharing. You've inspired me to play some more Terran on the ladder.
I have to say though, that is simply an excellent build. Someone used it against me yesterday (two days ago?) on the ladder and I was absolutely unprepared. I was fast expanding, and I went for an early Nexus 1 gate build. He came into my main with 3 hellions at the 7 minute mark and tore up my mineral line. Then, as I was trying to recover, he rolls in with cloaked banshees and ravens. This COMPLETELY destroys my efforts for detection, because his 1 viking took down my observer while my stalkers squabbled around helplessly trying to find those damn invisible banshees. My economy was in tatters and I had absolutely no hope for a base trade because his army was simply too mobile. He expanded behind his hellion/banshee pressure, and by the time he was laying down PDDs and destroying my Observers with his ravens, I had no choice but to gg.
I highly recommend this build. Very lethal, and this is a great write up. GJ, Yoshi.
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On November 12 2011 02:47 dezi wrote:
But you cannot harass with this build - you give up early pressure and let the Toss freely do stuff for a longer time.
Please read my post that is right above this one. It tells a little bit about how I had a Terran harass me RELENTLESSLY with hellions and banshees while he expanded and built up his force. Seriously, you won't regret trying to harass. It can absolutely be done.
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Very detailed build and im definitely going to try it out ^^
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this strat reminds me of the day when I randomly decided to just 4gate and got 10 wins in a row ^^ I'm pretty sure this can't hold a 4gate.
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On November 12 2011 04:33 Mondieu wrote:
this strat reminds me of the day when I randomly decided to just 4gate and got 10 wins in a row ^^ I'm pretty sure this can't hold a 4gate.
He does mention how to deal with a 4-gate with this build. I have to admit though, as a protoss I would be quite adamant on trying to break a Terran PF even with a 4-gate since the only way you can realistcally break this is with a high sentry count which can only be coupled by zealots and still that seems quite unrealistic as they should have banshees out by then. I may be completely wrong however and 4-gates may completely roll over this build but from what I'm looking at, it dosen't seem that likely or easy.
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Really nice guide, OP put a lot of effort into it. At least it points out that terran has options for TvP besides 1/1/1 and pure biomech
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On November 12 2011 01:36 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 23:38 Quotidian wrote:On November 11 2011 22:23 kmeanster wrote:
Hey Yoshi, great guide. This seems to resemble a TvP version of IEchoic's TvT sky terran play.
I know you want to build PF's and expand all over the map so your expansions can defend themselves to an extent. Have you ever tried macro OC's just for the mules? On the third mule they pay for themselves. Having a bunch of macro OC's would allow you to mine out less defended bases more quickly, reducing your opponent's ability to kill an expansion and then plop their own down in its place. In base trade scenarios they would also allow you to call down supply on the supply depots at the bases not under attack so you never get supply blocked. I don't think you need the mules for minerals, but once you're rolling in money I guess you could start trading SCVs for army. But you're probably so far ahead at that point anyway that you don't really need to I dunno, I never feel right when I PFort the natural. :\ Your income curve is just to shallow.
True, though even in the "vs top masters" my worker counter is much lower especially since I don't have a MULE, but I was still able to win them. If he responds "correctly" and gets air, then you don't need a PF I guess... maybe xD Not enough experience to be sure. Perhaps a better way to do my build is to get an OC at the natural, but cut Starport production or just get Ravens instead of Banshees to free up a little more minerals to get an earlier third CC which you build at the natural. Perhaps if he comes to attack, you can turn it into a PF, otherwise float it out and take a third like normal?
On November 12 2011 04:44 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 04:33 Mondieu wrote:
this strat reminds me of the day when I randomly decided to just 4gate and got 10 wins in a row ^^ I'm pretty sure this can't hold a 4gate. He does mention how to deal with a 4-gate with this build. I have to admit though, as a protoss I would be quite adamant on trying to break a Terran PF even with a 4-gate since the only way you can realistcally break this is with a high sentry count which can only be coupled by zealots and still that seems quite unrealistic as they should have banshees out by then. I may be completely wrong however and 4-gates may completely roll over this build but from what I'm looking at, it dosen't seem that likely or easy.
Well the 4 gate hits much before your PF is up, the idea is to make tons of bunkers to compensate for a lack of marines and hope that you can equalize the playing field. You might not end up ahead since it's 1 base vs 1 base but hopefully you'll end up not instantly losing.
On November 12 2011 03:06 saer wrote:
I could swear I played you doing this style, but I don't seem to have the replay saved, am I crazy or did that happen? name saer on battlenet
I think someone else, I'll check though o.o. I checked since last October 3rd, haven't played you  Unless it was even earlier than that. I save all my replays.
On November 12 2011 03:15 Nuclease wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 02:47 dezi wrote:
But you cannot harass with this build - you give up early pressure and let the Toss freely do stuff for a longer time. Please read my post that is right above this one. It tells a little bit about how I had a Terran harass me RELENTLESSLY with hellions and banshees while he expanded and built up his force. Seriously, you won't regret trying to harass. It can absolutely be done.
I think he must be referring to DrivenBatty's build.
On November 12 2011 02:06 DrivenBatty wrote:
I also play a Sky Terran style, so I checked out this one, watched the replay against Eidersuchtig, and I gotta say I didn't like the opening. 2port on one base is gimmicky, you had a very low marine count, the starports were right beside each other so they were both scouted immediately, the expo was late, and was PF so you had really low income. Your raw production was low until you got the 3rd base, and the fact that you kept saccing your air force into his main kept your army really small. If toss was more on top of scouting, he would have denied your 3rd and you would have been choked out.
I think the best opening for Sky Terran is a 1 rax FE. Here's a rough build order of mine
10 supply
12 rax
13 refinery
16 orbital
16 marine
17 marine
17 supply (food counts discontinued)
no scvs cut at all
after the 2nd marine, build a reactor, constant marine production after
@400 min, cc inbase
factory
@ cc 100%, orbital
@ factory 100%
2 starports, 2nd refinery, hellion
@ starports 100%, 2 techlabs
Build bunkers as needed, scout with the hellion and scans, take the nat, take the 3rd and 4th gas. Spread out the starports, look for the observer (the timing is pretty consistent) and kill it. If you don't completely screw up, he is only going to see one starport and going to prepare for 1-2 banshees. Build 2 banshees, get cloak, 2 more banshees. Rally them to different points. Cloak should be done the same time as the second pair of banshees and you can do a 2 pronged attack, a concentrated attack if his AA is weak, whichever will cause the most damage. After the 4th gas is up I throw down 2 more starports, 1 tech lab, and either keep the other naked or swap it on to my reactor if needed. I can do constant CC production and take my 3rd long before you could, with a more robust air army to boot.
This opening gives you more income, a bigger standing army faster, and a stronger initial attack than what you did. A PF at the nat is massively overkill for defense and you didn't have the income to take a 3rd for a long time. With my opening, between sniping observers with vikings, PDD, and faster upgrades, I can take the toss army head on far earlier than you could, have massive economic advantages, and I attribute that almost entirely to your opening basically crippling you.
Interesting build, thanks for sharing. I'll have to try it out before giving any thoughts on it.
On November 12 2011 03:11 LionsFist wrote:Yoshi, why do I always find myself downloading mass replays of yours trying to learn your builds? Upload a replay pack already!
<3
builds? The only replays I've shared formally are the ones in here, if meant "builds" literally as in different strategies =O
I might make one... next time I have a break lol. I think I'll make a TvZ mech air guide, based on Gumiho's builds. Not really a pack but more strats/replays i guess.
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EPT
