EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXIII - Page 58
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Lvdr
United States418 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 14 2012 11:35 Lvdr wrote: @Hapa: You know you're good when you make people rage-quit because they think you're hacking. Brain hacking maybe. Well, basically I think I'm going to policy NK or policy lynch Hapa every single game now. Either he's scum, so scum haven't NK'd him yet, or I'm scum and he's going to get NK'd. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On August 14 2012 11:00 Shady Sands wrote: Unfortunately, I don't think I can lay down my suspicions to play with you in the future. Marv advised me to take it as a complement that my reads were so accurate that you thought I was reading the scum QT. Yet something like this pisses me off so much. I couldn't give two shits about what you think about the quality my play, but I do care when someone accuses me of cheating. In the spoiler below is a brief rant. Read at your own discretion - it is not very kind. + Show Spoiler + I put so much effort into Newbie XXIII. I have 10 pages of filter of questioning posters, getting information, and making reads. I'm proud of the effort I put into the game and how much I've improved since my first game (Newbie XX). I put so much fucking effort into improving at this game, and you want to discredit me because I played too fucking well? Guess what, your scum-team had 10 POSTS between your buddies - what the hell did you think was going to happen? That I was going to herp-derp and mislynch the entire fucking town? If you think I am a sick enough of a bastard to use all of this as a front to cheat, then fuck you. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I think even being suspicious of him is kinda a dick move. Scum was inactive this game and lost handily. It happens. Let it go, man. And Hapa, I get that you're pissed he's calling you a cheater and you're right to be pissed, but telling him "fuck you" doesn't help anything. Shady, take some time to think about what you're saying and how immature you sound, and come back to the thread in a few days and talk it out. On August 14 2012 11:39 Shady Sands wrote: Well, basically I think I'm going to policy NK or policy lynch Hapa every single game now. Either he's scum, so scum haven't NK'd him yet, or I'm scum and he's going to get NK'd. You forgot two possibilities here, which is that you're both town, and you're going to try to policy lynch a skilled townie-- or that you're both scum, and obviously you're not gonna shoot your scumbuddy. Chill out, leave thread, come back in a few days and talk it out then. | ||
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Lvdr
United States418 Posts
I leave you with this thought from Jay-Z: If you feelin' like a pimp *****, go and brush your shoulders off Ladies is pimps too, go and brush your shoulders off *****z is crazy baby, don't forget that boy told you Get, that, dirt off your shoulder | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
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Sideni
Canada79 Posts
I still don't know how cop works xD Day 1 was just so much pressure, I tried to change a bit from night 1 to night 2 ! It's kind of easier to play "correctly" when you're not being attacked from every sides !  I might play in an other game, but it won't be the next one since I now have work + school and I want to have a life (Still in progress of finding one ...) Overall, nice game guys ! :D | ||
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Kronen
United States732 Posts
On August 14 2012 09:38 Dandel Ion wrote: Not flawless. Kronen died. Get your shit together Kronen! Sowwie... I'll try to play better next time | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On August 14 2012 15:57 Sideni wrote: People thought I was the cop ! xD The only thing I had in mind was to let one of my suspicions call a power role and just look at them not die during the night. After that, they would obviously be mafia ... I really don't understand what you mean by that. Lets say, for instance, that Hapa told you he was cop. The mafia don't know that he's the cop, so they aren't necessarily going to kill him. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you? | ||
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Kronen
United States732 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 14 2012 11:50 Blazinghand wrote: I think it's pretty obvious Hapa didn't cheat, and he just played well. Did you even see him play in XXI? He's a great player! I think even being suspicious of him is kinda a dick move. Scum was inactive this game and lost handily. It happens. Let it go, man. And Hapa, I get that you're pissed he's calling you a cheater and you're right to be pissed, but telling him "fuck you" doesn't help anything. Shady, take some time to think about what you're saying and how immature you sound, and come back to the thread in a few days and talk it out. You forgot two possibilities here, which is that you're both town, and you're going to try to policy lynch a skilled townie-- or that you're both scum, and obviously you're not gonna shoot your scumbuddy. Chill out, leave thread, come back in a few days and talk it out then. I'm willing to play with Hapa again. After seeing that he was cop and got lucky with the night check, it makes sense. The only misread I made was not nightkilling him, because I honestly thought there was a medic. The QT problem is a bit problematic though. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
Shady Sands asked me to get replaced out because he though that Hapahauli was cheating. I encouraged him to stay in the game because there was nothing in Hapahauli's game that made me think that he was cheating. I also coached him in one of his earlier newbie games and saw how good he was and how much effort he put into the game. This game looked just like that and there wasn't any evidence at all of him cheating (even though I agree it's hard to procure such evidence). I personally will have no problem playing with Hapahauli in the future, I actually think I will enjoy it very much. He's already a lot better than I am. I chose to let Shady Sands replace out of the game without giving him any penalty for it (request that he be put on the ban list). I couldn't disprove his accusations, I couldnt' even ask Hapahauli about it before the game was over. This didn't seem like Shady Sands just wanted an easy out, it seemed like he genuinely thought that Hapahauli was cheating and then I didn't want to try to force him to play on. I hope you guys don't start hating too much on each other. There is no way we can prove that Hapahauli didn't cheat but you can read his other games and look how similar his game play is and how much potential he has. Then you can look at scum this game who had a hard time hiding well in this town. It all adds up very well. There is no reason to get any bad blood between you. Sorry that this game was so messed up but I hope everybody had fun and learned something about mafia anyway  | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
I don't think Hapa cheated. He got a good check on Shady n1, but that wasn't too hard. Prome already shot himself into Lynch City, and the only other feasible targets were YourHarry and mkfuba. Shady, I think you look at this wrong. You guys had bad luck we got GK at first lynch (=bad luck that GK was the biggest lurker by FAR), and were unable to salvage the situation. None of you were active enough to establish a presence, so when you were under suspicion, you fell pretty fast. You should examine your OWN play and find out how you could've done it better instead of blaming something else. That's what you should've learned from starcraft. I don't think any of you played a good scum game, but that's just like, my opinion, man. | ||
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Sideni
Canada79 Posts
On August 14 2012 16:35 Keirathi wrote: I really don't understand what you mean by that. Lets say, for instance, that Hapa told you he was cop. The mafia don't know that he's the cop, so they aren't necessarily going to kill him. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you? Well, that's why I didn't ask Hapa what role he was ! I asked non-confirmed townies. If mafia players only have 1 lead for a power role, they would try to kill it at night ! If this player doesn't die, it would mean that he's mafia :D | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
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iamperfection
United States9639 Posts
On August 14 2012 23:02 Sideni wrote: Well, that's why I didn't ask Hapa what role he was ! I asked non-confirmed townies. If mafia players only have 1 lead for a power role, they would try to kill it at night ! If this player doesn't die, it would mean that he's mafia :D but then what if mafia dont kill them just for that reason to set up a miss lynch. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Shady I know it's rough getting read cold like that, but look at it as a learning experience. That's what these games are for, after all...for players to not only learn from their mistakes, but to learn from the good play of their peers. | ||
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
Either way, could you guys analyze this game? I agree that Hapa definitely puts in a lot of effort, but I would like to learn what makes a good scum hunting. Regardless of the result, was GK good lynch simply because he was lurking? How was town's analysis after GK's flipping scum? Is it safe to say that scum should bus in that situation? Scum Hapa or Lvdr busing GK hard, just because they were the first ones to start the lynch on GK, gave them almost confirmed town status? How can town deal with such scum actions, especially if detective does not exist or has been killed? Was Shady scummy? Obviously Hapa had investigated him, so he knew. But how should other players have known that he is scummy. To me, it was simply sort of by choice of elimination, which again could be dangerous because scums could bus to kill their scum partner, Godfather or not. Godfather is better than a lowly goon only if there is a detective, and only if detective happens to investigate him, BTW. To me, Shady's opposing the sudden shift in votes (without much reason beside lurking) that seemed to secure the GK lynch looked town to me. Should I have analyzed this in another way? I still don't understand what Sideni was trying to do. Anyone care to explain? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On August 15 2012 01:25 YourHarry wrote: ... but I would like to learn what makes a good scum hunting. Regardless of the result, was GK good lynch simply because he was lurking? I wanted to comment on this because I feel a lot of the current town guides don't answer this question sufficiently. I'll likely do a writup on my thought-process during the game (scum-reads and whatnot), but for now, to your question (Take all of this FWIW - I've played a grand total of 3 games). Index: 1) Common Knowledge is Worthless 2) Ask the Right Questions - "uncommon knowledge" 3) Find a Way to Answer These Questions Using Your Playstyle Common Knowledge is Worthless I feel that a lot of the "scumhunting" in newbie games is overly based on common knowledge. Due to the guides, newbies go into games thinking that all it takes to find mafia is to find a couple of common scumtells in someone's play. So on Day 1, the indecisive, inconsistent, and emotional player gets lynched on the basis of these "common" scumtells. 95% of the time, they flip town, a bunch of townies blame each other, and the cycle repeats. The problem here, is that these "common" scumtells aren't always accurate (and argubly are rarely accurate). If everyone reads the guides and knows what these tells are, how can they be used to reliably scumhunt? In fact, scum will often consciously avoid these tells and run the town around in circles. If you want a good example of this, look at Newbie XXI. My mafia teammates simply tunnel suspicion on a player or two without getting involved in the game at all. People should have been questioning them, yet on the basis of "common scumtells," they were viewed as townies until very late in the game. It's worth saying that common scumtells may not be completely useless in Newbie games - I used these tells to catch my first mafia in Newbie XX (Hopeless1der). In addition, Promethelax was showing some common scumtells in this game - fingerpointing all over the place with little reasoning. However, all these tells will go out the window when you move into real games. Ask the Right Questions So if common scumtells are useless, then how do we scumhunt? The answer is to ask the right questions - this is the list I have so far:
Is this player genuinenly trying to scum-hunt? This is the #1 thing you should ask yourself when making a read on a player. If a player is sheeping on a popular suspicion or isn't providing much analysis, you need to question them and figure out if they're scum-hunting or not. All three mafia players fell under this player category this game. All too often, these types of players (see DrWiggles and Mufaa in XXI) are let off the hook because their play is "clean." Of course this can go even deeper than this. If someone is "scum-hunting" in a different way than in a previous game, you should question their motives. If someone is tunneling a player too much even though they seem like a bad townie, you should question their motives. There is no "check-list" that you can use to answer this question. Is this player playing with information? This is a question I use to determine a bad townie froma mafia player. Think about how you think as a townie - you're always unsure of your reads, you commonly switch suspicions, and you're generally suspicious of everyone around you. This generally leads to very inconsistent play among townies who can't write or express their ideas very well. Yet these townies often end up getting lynched. When you see inconsistent play, put yourself in a player's "shoes" and try to understand how they think. For example, look at Lvdr's play in Day 0.5 - he posted a lot of one liners and sheeped suspicion on a lot of players, yet I thought he was town. Why? Because he was thinking like a townie! However, a Mafia player knows exactly who and who isn't town. Mafia can actually be very sure of themselves because they know exactly what's up. A player that takes forceful and confident opinions can very well be mafia, yet some players give this "confident and forceful" play as a strong townie read. Keep your mind open to all options and really try to figure out a player's mentality. What story is this player trying to tell? It's always important to understand the context of a player's actions rather than the actions themselves. It's easy for a player to make a case on individual inconsistent actions (Mafia do this quite often - see Promethelax and GoodKarma being obsessed with Sideni mixing up names in the thread). However, these cases are not always accurate unless you can put these actions into context. I actually defended Calgar on this basis in Newbie XXI. Even though I was mafia that game, I think my logic was pretty sound: On July 19 2012 12:18 Hapahauli wrote: Here are my thoughts on the Calgar case: tl;dr - I think Calgar is very townie. When looking for suspicious posts, its important to take the entire context of a person's play rather than individual posts. For example, I can dig through Jingle's filter and build a case on him for "suspicious and inconsistent play," yet Jingle is one of my very strong townie reads. Why? Because his play in full context shows a reckless player who tries to generate discussion - he's bound to have inconsistent/suspicious play based on his posting style alone. In the case against Calgar, I'm seeing all his inconsistent posts brought to light while ignoring the context of his play and any pro-townie evidence in his favor. So here's a question; has Calgar's play hurt or helped us this game? I'd say he helped us quite a bit. He generated a lot of discussion and got a lot of lurkers to talk. In Jingle's case, this is interpreted as him bandwagonning suspicion on several players before casting a vote on iamperfection. Calgar's fingerpointing play appears townie in full context. Another point Jingle makes is his "me-too" bandwagonning on my suspicions/ideas. Again, in full context, this isn't suspicious. I assume that Calgar thinks his strongest townie reads are Jingle and I, and he's been actively trying to make peace with (and between) us. Just take a look at this post: What part of this even makes sense from a mafia perspective? Why the hell would he attempt to break up a fight between us? Other than his last post to Jingle, he's been very active in trying to get on good terms with his top townie reads and stopped us from our distracting fight. This is 100% pure-colombian townie. As a final point, while I see "inconsistency" in Calgar's play, I don't see any any attemps to lie, mislead, or deflect. Inconsistency is indicative of reckless townie play - misleading play is very very mafia oriented. I don't see any indication of the latter at all. So before the town goes and bandwagons Calgar, ask yourself; is he really the most suspicious player here? Does he have any mafia-motive? In my opinion, no and no. Find a Way to Answer These Questions Using Your Playstyle The last step is playstyle - you need to find the best way for YOU to get the information needed to answer these questions. In my case, I like aggressively questioning players and ripping the answers out of them. Others like sitting back and "observing" the thread before chiming in with their reads. Many take a balance between the two styles. There are advantages and disadvantages to different methods, but what's important is that you find a style that works for you. | ||
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