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On March 16 2012 03:35 ZenithM wrote:
There is actually no design issue with Terran. I think we can safely say that it's the best designed race in the game. However, maybe their units are too weak and need a buff (which Blizzard will do if Terran is really that hard to play).
But it's very different from a design issue. For example, Protoss with 1000 hp zealots could be very badly designed, it will win 100% of the time nonetheless...
If it feels like Terran has to micro too much to win, well Blizzard will buff the units stats and that it, Terran is a strong race once again.
I think HotS will help alot regarding our fragile units by simply allow us not to build them, as mech seems to get a healthy buff. Besides siege tanks dmg and all air to ground units + thor having energy I don't relly think the terran units need that much tweaking (perhaps do something about ghosts, maybe give them back the old snipe but less dmg to massive).
In my opinion the main problem in TvP is that protoss units are too "a-move friendly". Charging is easier than stutterstepping, missing a storm doesn't make or break a game though missing an emp does, tanks needs to be sieged while colossus don't etc.These are are all design issues, and I don't think simply buffing loads of units is a very god Idea, as it will make terran severely OP on the top level. As earlier mentioned I think HotS has a great potential for solving the issues, but it seems like a long wait!
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France12918 Posts
I don't think that most people are angry because of the balance.
Overall the game is kinda balanced at the highest level : each "current" monster of each race is able to come out victorious and so it has been for a long time.
But what makes people angry is the impression that you need to train a lot more with terran in order to be successful than with zerg or protoss.
Oftentimes you'll have the impression that despite the fact you lost, your opponent didn't play better than you. Like the guy is at the same MMR as you but he didn't have to do as much efforts as you did.
So the solution would not be buffing terran, because hard mode isn't that bad and top tier terrans would win everything, but making P and Z harder to play.
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On March 16 2012 03:44 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:50 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20%  Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact. And it's also a fact that terran have a higher win rate mid game. But that's not something you want to acknowledge, right?
No, most Terrans have actually acknowledged that. 1-2 base all ins are the direction Terran strategy is quickly heading these days. I switched over to using a 1 base hellion drop all in a few weeks ago and dominated toss on ladder. Now I do a 3 base thor/marine/banshee/raven all in. It's just disappointing that Terran have little options for playing longer games and statistically, every minute you don't win the game your chances lessen, how does that feel while playing? In both match-ups, not just against Protoss.
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I wouldn't mind small buffs to Terran T3 units to make them at least somewhat enticing/viable to use and, I would like to see other races become more difficult to play (more micro intensive, etc.). It's pretty silly that having Archon / Collo / HT are sooo easy to use compared to Terran counterpart and the skill discrepancy makes it so that if a weaker player survives to later stages of the game they have a very good chance to beat a better player (mechanically / decision making).
All Terran splash we have is pretty much unusable in TvP except ghost EMP and that is pretty worthless against Collosus build, where you need Viking not Ghost. So...Protoss has Archon, HT, and Collo that all deal crazy AoE damage. It's not surprising that Protoss is much stronger than T late-game.
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On March 16 2012 03:49 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:44 tomatriedes wrote:On March 16 2012 02:50 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact. And it's also a fact that terran have a higher win rate mid game. But that's not something you want to acknowledge, right? It's my opinion that it is much easier to prolong a game past the mid game than it is to win at that time. Personal thought, I don't know how it is for you.
If it were so easy for protoss to prolong every game past the mid game in good shape then the match up would be horribly imbalanced but in fact the most recent pro level win rate graphs show it's very close to being balanced at the moment (protoss with a slight lead in Korea and terran with a slight lead internationally). I guess all the whiners in this thread want to go back to the 'good old days' when terran were stomping toss 67-33%, because the match up was obviously so much more balanced then right?
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On March 16 2012 04:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:44 tomatriedes wrote:On March 16 2012 02:50 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact. And it's also a fact that terran have a higher win rate mid game. But that's not something you want to acknowledge, right? No, most Terrans have actually acknowledged that. 1-2 base all ins are the direction Terran strategy is quickly heading these days. I switched over to using a 1 base hellion drop all in a few weeks ago and dominated toss on ladder. Now I do a 3 base thor/marine/banshee/raven all in. It's just disappointing that Terran have little options for playing longer games and statistically, every minute you don't win the game your chances lessen, how does that feel while playing? In both match-ups, not just against Protoss.
But don't you see the fact that terran can win more in the mid game in just as big a problem ultimately as the fact that protoss can win more late game. The match up is balanced by the fact the terran has the early advantage before protoss can get a significant amount of splash and can do damage or outright win then. If you take away any late game advantage protoss has you would need to balance that with buffing the protoss midgame or the match up will end up stupidly one sided.
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On March 16 2012 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I am all good with what you said except for that part. If terrans could drop that part and say this:
"The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose after 20 minutes and not really understand why it happened."
I am not saying that the protoss had to micro to win the last battle of the game, but the game may have been over long before that battle took place. Most protoss play safe and don't try to finish off a terran until they know they can crush them with minor effort. That is how I play every game against terran. Why? Because terran has an amazing ability to take advantage of mistakes and run with them. Playing that safely is a product throwing away leads that never should have been lost. So when you say that a Protoss player won with half the APM, it because they focused all their effort into getting to a point when they could not lose. Discounting that is insulting and adds nothing to your argument.
If someone wants to look at their replays, I am sure a protoss player could tell you the exact moment when you lost the. Further more, I am sure it will not be near the end of the game. That is how the match up works, sadly. It sucks on both sides, because a protoss has to basicly wait for a one-base-terran to mine out or just totally blow it.
And again, the end game might be a bit messed up. I respect all the players you named and I am willing to take their word for it. But I also think they want to work on it a bit before they say a change is needed. After all, Demuslim, also said that Ghosts needed work(and I agree that they were over nerfted when it came to snipe).
I'll drop that but will say instead that in 80% of my TvP games I review toss has half my APM and their APM hardly goes up during engagements, and where their camera view hardly moves out of their base until they push out with the deathball.
Terran is less forgiving than protoss in general - no chrono if you missed a worker production cycle, no warpins if you missed army production cycle, no instant reinforcement anywhere on the map, warpins to defend drops means not having to think as much about positioning. On top of that, even if you play well all game long and stay on par in income and army supply, one misclick can cost you the game. On 3+ bases and with 3-3 upgrades, it feels like protoss just won't die -- terran needs to pull-off 3 or 4 successful engagements in a row to have a chance.
I used to play protoss in beta and for a couple of months after release, when few terrans did anything but stim rushes on those tiny maps. I remember the uneasy feeling I'd have waiting for the push to arrive and hoping I'd land my forcefields well -- one misclick there usually spelt a loss. As a terran now, I feel like that from around minute 14 onwards until the end of the game.
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On March 16 2012 04:21 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I am all good with what you said except for that part. If terrans could drop that part and say this:
"The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose after 20 minutes and not really understand why it happened."
I am not saying that the protoss had to micro to win the last battle of the game, but the game may have been over long before that battle took place. Most protoss play safe and don't try to finish off a terran until they know they can crush them with minor effort. That is how I play every game against terran. Why? Because terran has an amazing ability to take advantage of mistakes and run with them. Playing that safely is a product throwing away leads that never should have been lost. So when you say that a Protoss player won with half the APM, it because they focused all their effort into getting to a point when they could not lose. Discounting that is insulting and adds nothing to your argument.
If someone wants to look at their replays, I am sure a protoss player could tell you the exact moment when you lost the. Further more, I am sure it will not be near the end of the game. That is how the match up works, sadly. It sucks on both sides, because a protoss has to basicly wait for a one-base-terran to mine out or just totally blow it.
And again, the end game might be a bit messed up. I respect all the players you named and I am willing to take their word for it. But I also think they want to work on it a bit before they say a change is needed. After all, Demuslim, also said that Ghosts needed work(and I agree that they were over nerfted when it came to snipe). I'll drop that but will say instead that in 80% of my TvP games I review toss has half my APM and their APM hardly goes up during engagements, and where their camera view hardly moves out of their base until they push out with the deathball. Terran is less forgiving than protoss in general - no chrono if you missed a worker production cycle, no warpins if you missed army production cycle, no instant reinforcement anywhere on the map, warpins to defend drops means not having to think as much about positioning. On top of that, even if you play well all game long and stay on par in income and army supply, one misclick can cost you the game. On 3+ bases and with 3-3 upgrades, it feels like protoss just won't die -- terran needs to pull-off 3 or 4 successful engagements in a row to have a chance. I used to play protoss in beta and for a couple of months after release, when few terrans did anything but stim rushes on those tiny maps. I remember the uneasy feeling I'd have waiting for the push to arrive and hoping I'd land my forcefields well -- one misclick there usually spelt a loss. As a terran now, I feel like that from around minute 14 onwards until the end of the game.
If you have double the APM, use it. As I mentioned before, you have all the agressive potential you need. MAKE the game hard for him and don't allow him to freely expand and tech. Its up to YOU and its YOUR lack of ability that makes you lose and makes it EASY for him.
Watch the Koreans and how they sometimes absolutely destroy Protoss, because they hit timings or out-multitask their opponent, force them to be split up, hectical... Please get to a certain level of high level play before QQ'ing all the time. I'm really sick of it. It only damages yourself as you will go into TvP with "Cannot win anyways"
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On March 16 2012 04:06 Wegandi wrote:
I wouldn't mind small buffs to Terran T3 units to make them at least somewhat enticing/viable to use and, I would like to see other races become more difficult to play (more micro intensive, etc.). It's pretty silly that having Archon / Collo / HT are sooo easy to use compared to Terran counterpart and the skill discrepancy makes it so that if a weaker player survives to later stages of the game they have a very good chance to beat a better player (mechanically / decision making).
All Terran splash we have is pretty much unusable in TvP except ghost EMP and that is pretty worthless against Collosus build, where you need Viking not Ghost. So...Protoss has Archon, HT, and Collo that all deal crazy AoE damage. It's not surprising that Protoss is much stronger than T late-game.
You know, if Terrans would actually talk about micro possibilities that you have to depend on, and availability buffs(like BCs cutting through standard Protoss, you just never get there) I could agree. but it's domewhat hard to accept things if my possibilities are to burrow roaches, so that I increase combat strenght by 5% compared to 300% Terran micro, while my macro allows for +300% and terrany only +5%.
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On March 16 2012 04:25 Type|NarutO wrote:
If you have double the APM, use it. As I mentioned before, you have all the agressive potential you need. MAKE the game hard for him and don't allow him to freely expand and tech. Its up to YOU and its YOUR lack of ability that makes you lose and makes it EASY for him.
Watch the Koreans and how they sometimes absolutely destroy Protoss, because they hit timings or out-multitask their opponent, force them to be split up, hectical... Please get to a certain level of high level play before QQ'ing all the time. I'm really sick of it. It only damages yourself as you will go into TvP with "Cannot win anyways"
I have double the APM without spamming, simply doing everything playing TvP requires you to do. Managing economy, building production, making units -- even during engagements, dropping in more than one place at once, constantly scouting for expos etc etc. In the meantime, the protoss player gets everything he needs done done, and his APM is half that of mine. Sure I'm no GM and I fuck up all the time, but so do my protoss opponents -- but it's much less forgiving for me. Thanks for bolding and CAPSing all those nuggets of info though -- would've missed them otherwise.
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On March 16 2012 04:21 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I am all good with what you said except for that part. If terrans could drop that part and say this:
"The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose after 20 minutes and not really understand why it happened."
I am not saying that the protoss had to micro to win the last battle of the game, but the game may have been over long before that battle took place. Most protoss play safe and don't try to finish off a terran until they know they can crush them with minor effort. That is how I play every game against terran. Why? Because terran has an amazing ability to take advantage of mistakes and run with them. Playing that safely is a product throwing away leads that never should have been lost. So when you say that a Protoss player won with half the APM, it because they focused all their effort into getting to a point when they could not lose. Discounting that is insulting and adds nothing to your argument.
If someone wants to look at their replays, I am sure a protoss player could tell you the exact moment when you lost the. Further more, I am sure it will not be near the end of the game. That is how the match up works, sadly. It sucks on both sides, because a protoss has to basicly wait for a one-base-terran to mine out or just totally blow it.
And again, the end game might be a bit messed up. I respect all the players you named and I am willing to take their word for it. But I also think they want to work on it a bit before they say a change is needed. After all, Demuslim, also said that Ghosts needed work(and I agree that they were over nerfted when it came to snipe). I'll drop that but will say instead that in 80% of my TvP games I review toss has half my APM and their APM hardly goes up during engagements, and where their camera view hardly moves out of their base until they push out with the deathball. Terran is less forgiving than protoss in general - no chrono if you missed a worker production cycle, no warpins if you missed army production cycle, no instant reinforcement anywhere on the map, warpins to defend drops means not having to think as much about positioning. On top of that, even if you play well all game long and stay on par in income and army supply, one misclick can cost you the game. On 3+ bases and with 3-3 upgrades, it feels like protoss just won't die -- terran needs to pull-off 3 or 4 successful engagements in a row to have a chance. I used to play protoss in beta and for a couple of months after release, when few terrans did anything but stim rushes on those tiny maps. I remember the uneasy feeling I'd have waiting for the push to arrive and hoping I'd land my forcefields well -- one misclick there usually spelt a loss. As a terran now, I feel like that from around minute 14 onwards until the end of the game.
And this "I had double the APM" bullshit is not true anyway most of the time. Use Blizzard's APM number, and I'd be surprised if you really had double of that, it's quite hard to make that number climb without clicking like a mad man.
Like, you had 100 APM and him 50? You can't barely play with 50, so I don't believe it :D
You had 140 and him 70? 140+ is korean pro level (with Blizzard's system, few can reach higher numbers), so as Naruto said, if you have that much APM to spare, use it.
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On March 16 2012 04:34 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:21 sushichef wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I am all good with what you said except for that part. If terrans could drop that part and say this:
"The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose after 20 minutes and not really understand why it happened."
I am not saying that the protoss had to micro to win the last battle of the game, but the game may have been over long before that battle took place. Most protoss play safe and don't try to finish off a terran until they know they can crush them with minor effort. That is how I play every game against terran. Why? Because terran has an amazing ability to take advantage of mistakes and run with them. Playing that safely is a product throwing away leads that never should have been lost. So when you say that a Protoss player won with half the APM, it because they focused all their effort into getting to a point when they could not lose. Discounting that is insulting and adds nothing to your argument.
If someone wants to look at their replays, I am sure a protoss player could tell you the exact moment when you lost the. Further more, I am sure it will not be near the end of the game. That is how the match up works, sadly. It sucks on both sides, because a protoss has to basicly wait for a one-base-terran to mine out or just totally blow it.
And again, the end game might be a bit messed up. I respect all the players you named and I am willing to take their word for it. But I also think they want to work on it a bit before they say a change is needed. After all, Demuslim, also said that Ghosts needed work(and I agree that they were over nerfted when it came to snipe). I'll drop that but will say instead that in 80% of my TvP games I review toss has half my APM and their APM hardly goes up during engagements, and where their camera view hardly moves out of their base until they push out with the deathball. Terran is less forgiving than protoss in general - no chrono if you missed a worker production cycle, no warpins if you missed army production cycle, no instant reinforcement anywhere on the map, warpins to defend drops means not having to think as much about positioning. On top of that, even if you play well all game long and stay on par in income and army supply, one misclick can cost you the game. On 3+ bases and with 3-3 upgrades, it feels like protoss just won't die -- terran needs to pull-off 3 or 4 successful engagements in a row to have a chance. I used to play protoss in beta and for a couple of months after release, when few terrans did anything but stim rushes on those tiny maps. I remember the uneasy feeling I'd have waiting for the push to arrive and hoping I'd land my forcefields well -- one misclick there usually spelt a loss. As a terran now, I feel like that from around minute 14 onwards until the end of the game. And this "I had double the APM" bullshit is not true anyway most of the time. Use Blizzard's APM number, and I'd be surprised if you really had double of that, it's quite hard to make that number climb without clicking like a mad man. Like, you had 100 APM and him 50? You can't barely play with 50, so I don't believe it :D You had 140 and him 70? 140+ is korean pro level (with Blizzard's system, few can reach higher numbers), so as Naruto said, if you have that much APM to spare, use it.
Blizzard's apm is a stupid measurement honestly. Instead of counting multiple key presses, it basically only counts clicks. So it's basically who clicks more. If you want real apm, go check SC2gears. Mine is around 240 average (with around 50% redundancy lol) while the protoss will be at about 100.
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On March 16 2012 04:34 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:21 sushichef wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I am all good with what you said except for that part. If terrans could drop that part and say this:
"The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose after 20 minutes and not really understand why it happened."
I am not saying that the protoss had to micro to win the last battle of the game, but the game may have been over long before that battle took place. Most protoss play safe and don't try to finish off a terran until they know they can crush them with minor effort. That is how I play every game against terran. Why? Because terran has an amazing ability to take advantage of mistakes and run with them. Playing that safely is a product throwing away leads that never should have been lost. So when you say that a Protoss player won with half the APM, it because they focused all their effort into getting to a point when they could not lose. Discounting that is insulting and adds nothing to your argument.
If someone wants to look at their replays, I am sure a protoss player could tell you the exact moment when you lost the. Further more, I am sure it will not be near the end of the game. That is how the match up works, sadly. It sucks on both sides, because a protoss has to basicly wait for a one-base-terran to mine out or just totally blow it.
And again, the end game might be a bit messed up. I respect all the players you named and I am willing to take their word for it. But I also think they want to work on it a bit before they say a change is needed. After all, Demuslim, also said that Ghosts needed work(and I agree that they were over nerfted when it came to snipe). I'll drop that but will say instead that in 80% of my TvP games I review toss has half my APM and their APM hardly goes up during engagements, and where their camera view hardly moves out of their base until they push out with the deathball. Terran is less forgiving than protoss in general - no chrono if you missed a worker production cycle, no warpins if you missed army production cycle, no instant reinforcement anywhere on the map, warpins to defend drops means not having to think as much about positioning. On top of that, even if you play well all game long and stay on par in income and army supply, one misclick can cost you the game. On 3+ bases and with 3-3 upgrades, it feels like protoss just won't die -- terran needs to pull-off 3 or 4 successful engagements in a row to have a chance. I used to play protoss in beta and for a couple of months after release, when few terrans did anything but stim rushes on those tiny maps. I remember the uneasy feeling I'd have waiting for the push to arrive and hoping I'd land my forcefields well -- one misclick there usually spelt a loss. As a terran now, I feel like that from around minute 14 onwards until the end of the game. And this "I had double the APM" bullshit is not true anyway most of the time. Use Blizzard's APM number, and I'd be surprised if you really had double of that, it's quite hard to make that number climb without clicking like a mad man. Like, you had 100 APM and him 50? You can't barely play with 50, so I don't believe it :D You had 140 and him 70? 140+ is korean pro level (with Blizzard's system, few can reach higher numbers), so as Naruto said, if you have that much APM to spare, use it.
I'm Korean pro level then :p! I'm 280 average, but most of the time I'm >300 with the old and to me only meaningful APM as who the fuck is Blizzard to tell me what action has a meaning and a use to it and what action as not. Ok ;-)!
But if you want to talk about the APM displayed by Blizzard I'm around 115-140 average I guess. Still what I tried to say was, that even if Terran needs more APM to be played there are critical decisions you need to make as Protoss, and its not like every Protoss does play that laid back non-agressive turtle style.
My teammate Type|ReaL is a very agressive Protoss and his style involves a lot of poking, he also hits about 300+ APM but really, APM should not be a measurement for skill, because it really isn't. GoOdy is very slow, but his decision making is insanely good, so he wins a lot of games even though his inferior mechanics.
Protoss has tons of decisions to make, what do I spend chronoboost on, what techroute do I open with and what transition is there to choose. They also have to be very aware of the minimap and their base overall. Bad sim city? Drop killed whole your base. Forcefields off by a second? Hope lost.
Don't make it sound easy, because it really isn't even though it might require less actions average.
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Ive been getting a lot more Terrans in 1v1's on ladder recently, compared to 1-2months ago anyway 
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personnaly i think that terran is hardest to play on a low to mid level but it also has the greatest potential once ur mechanics are really good. Thats bad in two ways : first mid level terranplayers feel weaker compared to the other races and second, the longer the game is played and the better people - especially pros - get in terms of mechanics, the more dominant will terran become at the highest level of play. i hope HotS will change that.
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One mistake and your entire army is dead, thats gg. You need to have 1 hotkey for ghosts, 1 for your army, , 1 for your vikings, 1 for your ccs 1 for your raxes and starports. Protoss only needs their army, templars and Nexi, to me protoss seems so easy. now that every matchup I get is a TvP I wonder if I got the wrong race, stutter stepping, emping, targeting seems so hard compared to what protoss has to do.
Well I give up, unless the protoss player is completely moronic, there is no way I can feasebly beat protoss at diamond level.
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On March 16 2012 04:41 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:34 ZenithM wrote:On March 16 2012 04:21 sushichef wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I am all good with what you said except for that part. If terrans could drop that part and say this:
"The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose after 20 minutes and not really understand why it happened."
I am not saying that the protoss had to micro to win the last battle of the game, but the game may have been over long before that battle took place. Most protoss play safe and don't try to finish off a terran until they know they can crush them with minor effort. That is how I play every game against terran. Why? Because terran has an amazing ability to take advantage of mistakes and run with them. Playing that safely is a product throwing away leads that never should have been lost. So when you say that a Protoss player won with half the APM, it because they focused all their effort into getting to a point when they could not lose. Discounting that is insulting and adds nothing to your argument.
If someone wants to look at their replays, I am sure a protoss player could tell you the exact moment when you lost the. Further more, I am sure it will not be near the end of the game. That is how the match up works, sadly. It sucks on both sides, because a protoss has to basicly wait for a one-base-terran to mine out or just totally blow it.
And again, the end game might be a bit messed up. I respect all the players you named and I am willing to take their word for it. But I also think they want to work on it a bit before they say a change is needed. After all, Demuslim, also said that Ghosts needed work(and I agree that they were over nerfted when it came to snipe). I'll drop that but will say instead that in 80% of my TvP games I review toss has half my APM and their APM hardly goes up during engagements, and where their camera view hardly moves out of their base until they push out with the deathball. Terran is less forgiving than protoss in general - no chrono if you missed a worker production cycle, no warpins if you missed army production cycle, no instant reinforcement anywhere on the map, warpins to defend drops means not having to think as much about positioning. On top of that, even if you play well all game long and stay on par in income and army supply, one misclick can cost you the game. On 3+ bases and with 3-3 upgrades, it feels like protoss just won't die -- terran needs to pull-off 3 or 4 successful engagements in a row to have a chance. I used to play protoss in beta and for a couple of months after release, when few terrans did anything but stim rushes on those tiny maps. I remember the uneasy feeling I'd have waiting for the push to arrive and hoping I'd land my forcefields well -- one misclick there usually spelt a loss. As a terran now, I feel like that from around minute 14 onwards until the end of the game. And this "I had double the APM" bullshit is not true anyway most of the time. Use Blizzard's APM number, and I'd be surprised if you really had double of that, it's quite hard to make that number climb without clicking like a mad man. Like, you had 100 APM and him 50? You can't barely play with 50, so I don't believe it :D You had 140 and him 70? 140+ is korean pro level (with Blizzard's system, few can reach higher numbers), so as Naruto said, if you have that much APM to spare, use it. I'm Korean pro level then :p! I'm 280 average, but most of the time I'm >300 with the old and to me only meaningful APM as who the fuck is Blizzard to tell me what action has a meaning and a use to it and what action as not. Ok ;-)! But if you want to talk about the APM displayed by Blizzard I'm around 115-140 average I guess. Still what I tried to say was, that even if Terran needs more APM to be played there are critical decisions you need to make as Protoss, and its not like every Protoss does play that laid back non-agressive turtle style. My teammate Type|ReaL is a very agressive Protoss and his style involves a lot of poking, he also hits about 300+ APM but really, APM should not be a measurement for skill, because it really isn't. GoOdy is very slow, but his decision making is insanely good, so he wins a lot of games even though his inferior mechanics. Protoss has tons of decisions to make, what do I spend chronoboost on, what techroute do I open with and what transition is there to choose. They also have to be very aware of the minimap and their base overall. Bad sim city? Drop killed whole your base. Forcefields off by a second? Hope lost. Don't make it sound easy, because it really isn't even though it might require less actions average.
I agree, I don't know what people are talking about when they say toss is forgiving, I cant tell you how many games I've lost because 1 hellion drop fucked up my shit, or because my FFs weren't perfect, or my storms were not perfect, or I got hit with too good emps, or I engaged in the wrong position, etc. If people start complaining about their race being unforgiving they really aren't taking responsibility for their losses, when all my templar get EMPed I don't say "damn toss is UP because its just so unforgiving, any small mistake can make you lose" Guess what, if its a mistake that can lose you the game, its NEVER a small mistake, when something like that happens to me I say to myself, well damn, I didnt really even give myself a chance to win because I didn't have the fundamentals on lock down, my macro and timings could all have been perfect but I can still always lose from one seemingly small micro error. That is just the reality of starcraft, its never forgiving when you are playing vs people at your skill level.
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On March 16 2012 04:41 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:34 ZenithM wrote:On March 16 2012 04:21 sushichef wrote:On March 16 2012 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I am all good with what you said except for that part. If terrans could drop that part and say this:
"The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose after 20 minutes and not really understand why it happened."
I am not saying that the protoss had to micro to win the last battle of the game, but the game may have been over long before that battle took place. Most protoss play safe and don't try to finish off a terran until they know they can crush them with minor effort. That is how I play every game against terran. Why? Because terran has an amazing ability to take advantage of mistakes and run with them. Playing that safely is a product throwing away leads that never should have been lost. So when you say that a Protoss player won with half the APM, it because they focused all their effort into getting to a point when they could not lose. Discounting that is insulting and adds nothing to your argument.
If someone wants to look at their replays, I am sure a protoss player could tell you the exact moment when you lost the. Further more, I am sure it will not be near the end of the game. That is how the match up works, sadly. It sucks on both sides, because a protoss has to basicly wait for a one-base-terran to mine out or just totally blow it.
And again, the end game might be a bit messed up. I respect all the players you named and I am willing to take their word for it. But I also think they want to work on it a bit before they say a change is needed. After all, Demuslim, also said that Ghosts needed work(and I agree that they were over nerfted when it came to snipe). I'll drop that but will say instead that in 80% of my TvP games I review toss has half my APM and their APM hardly goes up during engagements, and where their camera view hardly moves out of their base until they push out with the deathball. Terran is less forgiving than protoss in general - no chrono if you missed a worker production cycle, no warpins if you missed army production cycle, no instant reinforcement anywhere on the map, warpins to defend drops means not having to think as much about positioning. On top of that, even if you play well all game long and stay on par in income and army supply, one misclick can cost you the game. On 3+ bases and with 3-3 upgrades, it feels like protoss just won't die -- terran needs to pull-off 3 or 4 successful engagements in a row to have a chance. I used to play protoss in beta and for a couple of months after release, when few terrans did anything but stim rushes on those tiny maps. I remember the uneasy feeling I'd have waiting for the push to arrive and hoping I'd land my forcefields well -- one misclick there usually spelt a loss. As a terran now, I feel like that from around minute 14 onwards until the end of the game. And this "I had double the APM" bullshit is not true anyway most of the time. Use Blizzard's APM number, and I'd be surprised if you really had double of that, it's quite hard to make that number climb without clicking like a mad man. Like, you had 100 APM and him 50? You can't barely play with 50, so I don't believe it :D You had 140 and him 70? 140+ is korean pro level (with Blizzard's system, few can reach higher numbers), so as Naruto said, if you have that much APM to spare, use it. I'm Korean pro level then :p! I'm 280 average, but most of the time I'm >300 with the old and to me only meaningful APM as who the fuck is Blizzard to tell me what action has a meaning and a use to it and what action as not. Ok ;-)! But if you want to talk about the APM displayed by Blizzard I'm around 115-140 average I guess. Still what I tried to say was, that even if Terran needs more APM to be played there are critical decisions you need to make as Protoss, and its not like every Protoss does play that laid back non-agressive turtle style. My teammate Type|ReaL is a very agressive Protoss and his style involves a lot of poking, he also hits about 300+ APM but really, APM should not be a measurement for skill, because it really isn't. GoOdy is very slow, but his decision making is insanely good, so he wins a lot of games even though his inferior mechanics. Protoss has tons of decisions to make, what do I spend chronoboost on, what techroute do I open with and what transition is there to choose. They also have to be very aware of the minimap and their base overall. Bad sim city? Drop killed whole your base. Forcefields off by a second? Hope lost. Don't make it sound easy, because it really isn't even though it might require less actions average.
So I guess the point is, APM don't matter. Which I'm fine with.
I think that 280 APM is indeed enough to play the game at the highest level for now, DRG, MMA and MC have around that, MVP and MKP a bit less (like 220-250).
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On March 16 2012 04:48 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
One mistake and your entire army is dead, thats gg. You need to have 1 hotkey for ghosts, 1 for your army, , 1 for your vikings, 1 for your ccs 1 for your raxes and starports. Protoss only needs their army, templars and Nexi, to me protoss seems so easy. now that every matchup I get is a TvP I wonder if I got the wrong race, stutter stepping, emping, targeting seems so hard compared to what protoss has to do.
Well I give up, unless the protoss player is completely moronic, there is no way I can feasebly beat protoss at diamond level.
Look closer at pro Terran hotkey setups (and when I say pro, it's MKP, MMA and co.), they don't use more than 2 unit control groups at all times.
The basic concept is that you have so much shit to hotkey separately (MM, Medivacs in one group to not waste, vikings, ghosts, a raven, 1st drop, second drop, etc...), that it becomes pointless to even try to do it optimaly, so pro terrans micro all their shit with their mouse in the end, with roughly one control group to double tap and center their army, maybe one for ghosts to cast EMPs and stim very fast without using tab.
The 10 control groups Terran player is a complete myth.
Just fyi, MKP uses up to 2 unit control groups (he has a third one available, but I rarely see him use it), one more for command centers, and one other for rax+fact+starport (he uses the tab method, as does MMA).
That's 4 control groups. If he can handle it, I'm sure you can too.
The key to playing fast is not hotkeys, it's your mouse speed and accuracy, not much else.
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On March 16 2012 06:10 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:48 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
One mistake and your entire army is dead, thats gg. You need to have 1 hotkey for ghosts, 1 for your army, , 1 for your vikings, 1 for your ccs 1 for your raxes and starports. Protoss only needs their army, templars and Nexi, to me protoss seems so easy. now that every matchup I get is a TvP I wonder if I got the wrong race, stutter stepping, emping, targeting seems so hard compared to what protoss has to do.
Well I give up, unless the protoss player is completely moronic, there is no way I can feasebly beat protoss at diamond level. Look closer at pro Terran hotkey setups (and when I say pro, it's MKP, MMA and co.), they don't use more than 2 unit control groups at all times. The basic concept is that you have so much shit to hotkey separately (MM, Medivacs in one group to not waste, vikings, ghosts, a raven, 1st drop, second drop, etc...), that it becomes pointless to even try to do it optimaly, so pro terrans micro all their shit with their mouse in the end, with roughly one control group to double tap and center their army, maybe one for ghosts to cast EMPs and stim very fast without using tab. The 10 control groups Terran player is a complete myth. Just fyi, MKP uses up to 2 unit control groups (he has a third one available, but I rarely see him use it), one more for command centers, and one other for rax+fact+starport (he uses the tab method, as does MMA). That's 4 control groups. If he can handle it, I'm sure you can too. The key to playing fast is not hotkeys, it's your mouse speed and accuracy, not much else.
You pretty much NEED atleast 3 in lategame TvP, for MMM, for vikings, and for ghost.
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EPT
