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France13018 Posts
On March 16 2012 06:10 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:48 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
One mistake and your entire army is dead, thats gg. You need to have 1 hotkey for ghosts, 1 for your army, , 1 for your vikings, 1 for your ccs 1 for your raxes and starports. Protoss only needs their army, templars and Nexi, to me protoss seems so easy. now that every matchup I get is a TvP I wonder if I got the wrong race, stutter stepping, emping, targeting seems so hard compared to what protoss has to do.
Well I give up, unless the protoss player is completely moronic, there is no way I can feasebly beat protoss at diamond level. Look closer at pro Terran hotkey setups (and when I say pro, it's MKP, MMA and co.), they don't use more than 2 unit control groups at all times. The basic concept is that you have so much shit to hotkey separately (MM, Medivacs in one group to not waste, vikings, ghosts, a raven, 1st drop, second drop, etc...), that it becomes pointless to even try to do it optimaly, so pro terrans micro all their shit with their mouse in the end, with roughly one control group to double tap and center their army, maybe one for ghosts to cast EMPs and stim very fast without using tab. The 10 control groups Terran player is a complete myth. Just fyi, MKP uses up to 2 unit control groups (he has a third one available, but I rarely see him use it), one more for command centers, and one other for rax+fact+starport (he uses the tab method, as does MMA). That's 4 control groups. If he can handle it, I'm sure you can too. The key to playing fast is not hotkeys, it's your mouse speed and accuracy, not much else.
Aganst HuK in the first game MKP used 3 control groups all game long.
One for his big army, one for ghost, one for his defending army, and I didn't see his vikings hotkey.
Why the huck would you have a raven xd, and you hotkey it with vikings/banshees.
About APM stop talking about APM that doesn't mean shit, eAPM matters a bit more yet doesn't change a thing, foreign pros have high eAPM (Happy, Stephano etc) but they are far from the top tiers koreans mechanics (DRG, MKP, Mvp, MMA etc)
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On March 16 2012 04:21 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:41 Plansix wrote:
I am all good with what you said except for that part. If terrans could drop that part and say this:
"The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose after 20 minutes and not really understand why it happened."
I am not saying that the protoss had to micro to win the last battle of the game, but the game may have been over long before that battle took place. Most protoss play safe and don't try to finish off a terran until they know they can crush them with minor effort. That is how I play every game against terran. Why? Because terran has an amazing ability to take advantage of mistakes and run with them. Playing that safely is a product throwing away leads that never should have been lost. So when you say that a Protoss player won with half the APM, it because they focused all their effort into getting to a point when they could not lose. Discounting that is insulting and adds nothing to your argument.
If someone wants to look at their replays, I am sure a protoss player could tell you the exact moment when you lost the. Further more, I am sure it will not be near the end of the game. That is how the match up works, sadly. It sucks on both sides, because a protoss has to basicly wait for a one-base-terran to mine out or just totally blow it.
And again, the end game might be a bit messed up. I respect all the players you named and I am willing to take their word for it. But I also think they want to work on it a bit before they say a change is needed. After all, Demuslim, also said that Ghosts needed work(and I agree that they were over nerfted when it came to snipe).
Terran is less forgiving than protoss in general - no chrono if you missed a worker production cycle, no warpins if you missed army production cycle, no instant reinforcement anywhere on the map, warpins to defend drops means not having to think as much about positioning. On top of that, even if you play well all game long and stay on par in income and army supply, one misclick can cost you the game. On 3+ bases and with 3-3 upgrades, it feels like protoss just won't die -- terran needs to pull-off 3 or 4 successful engagements in a row to have a chance. ...
Stuff like this really annoys me. It's so obviously biased towards the race you play.
Yeah no chrono if you miss a worker production cycle, instead you have mules with no cooldown and supply drops if you forget your macro mechanic.
No warpins if you missed army production cycle, instead you can queue all of you units while 30 seconds of forgotten warpins are forever gone.
Warpins to defend drops means not having to think as much about positioning, yet protoss has a hard time moving out against both zerg and terran, at least in pro matches because of mutas/terran drops.
Terrans might be having a hard time but all this emotion driven crap needs to be filtered out somehow if there's ever anything to be learned. And no, i'm not part of the protoss defence force.
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On March 16 2012 06:27 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 06:10 ZenithM wrote:On March 16 2012 04:48 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
One mistake and your entire army is dead, thats gg. You need to have 1 hotkey for ghosts, 1 for your army, , 1 for your vikings, 1 for your ccs 1 for your raxes and starports. Protoss only needs their army, templars and Nexi, to me protoss seems so easy. now that every matchup I get is a TvP I wonder if I got the wrong race, stutter stepping, emping, targeting seems so hard compared to what protoss has to do.
Well I give up, unless the protoss player is completely moronic, there is no way I can feasebly beat protoss at diamond level. Look closer at pro Terran hotkey setups (and when I say pro, it's MKP, MMA and co.), they don't use more than 2 unit control groups at all times. The basic concept is that you have so much shit to hotkey separately (MM, Medivacs in one group to not waste, vikings, ghosts, a raven, 1st drop, second drop, etc...), that it becomes pointless to even try to do it optimaly, so pro terrans micro all their shit with their mouse in the end, with roughly one control group to double tap and center their army, maybe one for ghosts to cast EMPs and stim very fast without using tab. The 10 control groups Terran player is a complete myth. Just fyi, MKP uses up to 2 unit control groups (he has a third one available, but I rarely see him use it), one more for command centers, and one other for rax+fact+starport (he uses the tab method, as does MMA). That's 4 control groups. If he can handle it, I'm sure you can too. The key to playing fast is not hotkeys, it's your mouse speed and accuracy, not much else. Aganst HuK in the first game MKP used 3 control groups all game long. One for his big army, one for ghost, one for his defending army, and I didn't see his vikings hotkey. Why the huck would you have a raven xd, and you hotkey it with vikings/banshees. About APM stop talking about APM that doesn't mean shit, eAPM matters a bit more yet doesn't change a thing, foreign pros have high eAPM (Happy, Stephano etc) but they are far from the top tiers koreans mechanics (DRG, MKP, Mvp, MMA etc)
I'll have to watch this game but i find it very hard that he only had one hotkey for his army and one for his ghosts for his main army. When he was stutter stepping his marines his vikings and banshees were doing this same thing? I find that very hard to believe. And your saying terrans don't need higher eAPM in battle is just stupid, just stutter stepping uses about the same apm than the other two races in a battle....
There are some reasons why terran would be easier race to play, but your two examples are the 2 things that most everyone agrees that terrans need to use… Terran need and can abuse high eAPM in battle and they have to micro manage their unit in more battle (using control groups to have your different units do different things) then the other two races.
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On March 16 2012 06:26 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 06:10 ZenithM wrote:On March 16 2012 04:48 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
One mistake and your entire army is dead, thats gg. You need to have 1 hotkey for ghosts, 1 for your army, , 1 for your vikings, 1 for your ccs 1 for your raxes and starports. Protoss only needs their army, templars and Nexi, to me protoss seems so easy. now that every matchup I get is a TvP I wonder if I got the wrong race, stutter stepping, emping, targeting seems so hard compared to what protoss has to do.
Well I give up, unless the protoss player is completely moronic, there is no way I can feasebly beat protoss at diamond level. Look closer at pro Terran hotkey setups (and when I say pro, it's MKP, MMA and co.), they don't use more than 2 unit control groups at all times. The basic concept is that you have so much shit to hotkey separately (MM, Medivacs in one group to not waste, vikings, ghosts, a raven, 1st drop, second drop, etc...), that it becomes pointless to even try to do it optimaly, so pro terrans micro all their shit with their mouse in the end, with roughly one control group to double tap and center their army, maybe one for ghosts to cast EMPs and stim very fast without using tab. The 10 control groups Terran player is a complete myth. Just fyi, MKP uses up to 2 unit control groups (he has a third one available, but I rarely see him use it), one more for command centers, and one other for rax+fact+starport (he uses the tab method, as does MMA). That's 4 control groups. If he can handle it, I'm sure you can too. The key to playing fast is not hotkeys, it's your mouse speed and accuracy, not much else. You pretty much NEED atleast 3 in lategame TvP, for MMM, for vikings, and for ghost.
Good protoss generally have 3 as well. One for the main army, one for stalkers to poke around for information and one for HTs with the army. Also, good protoss stagger their templar and are very active with their stalkers to prevent the terran getting solid EMPs. The hard part for the protoss is not when the zealots and colossi engage, that is the point of no return. It is all the minor stuff before hand: pylon set up, HT use, feed backs, stalker use, getting a WP in position to follow up and so on.
Once the zealots and colossi are attacking and the terran is studder-stepping, it is all a question of landing a few good storms. But it is all the stuff before hand which is setting the protoss up for victory.
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Blizzard is screwing the race over so fucking hard. It's practically impossible to survive a brood->ultra switch now and 3/3 protoss is still lololololimabuldozerlololol
User was warned for this post
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On March 16 2012 06:29 karpo wrote:
No warpins if you missed army production cycle, instead you can queue all of you units while 30 seconds of forgotten warpins are forever gone.
Hey, the warpgate upgrade is optional. You can stick with gateways and queue your units too!
Oh wait, even tosses in the bronze league go for the warpgates instead. How nice of them tosses to nerf themselves so the T could get some easy wins with 2 rax, each queued with 500 minerals worth of units 
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On March 16 2012 06:56 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 06:29 karpo wrote:
No warpins if you missed army production cycle, instead you can queue all of you units while 30 seconds of forgotten warpins are forever gone. Hey, the warpgate upgrade is optional. You can stick with gateways and queue your units too! Oh wait, even tosses in the bronze league go for the warpgates instead. How nice of them tosses to nerf themselves so the T could get some easy wins with 2 rax, each queued with 500 minerals worth of units
What does anything you just said have to do with what i wrote? The game is balanced around warpgates and they're an upgrade because they lower the build time of units. If the build time was equal you might have had a point. Even high level terrans queue in the mid/late game.
All i'm saying is that those points are obviously written by a terran in a way to make terran seem tough and unforgiving while completely neglecting to mention terran perks or the equivalent unforgiving stuff of protoss.
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On March 16 2012 06:27 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 06:10 ZenithM wrote:On March 16 2012 04:48 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
One mistake and your entire army is dead, thats gg. You need to have 1 hotkey for ghosts, 1 for your army, , 1 for your vikings, 1 for your ccs 1 for your raxes and starports. Protoss only needs their army, templars and Nexi, to me protoss seems so easy. now that every matchup I get is a TvP I wonder if I got the wrong race, stutter stepping, emping, targeting seems so hard compared to what protoss has to do.
Well I give up, unless the protoss player is completely moronic, there is no way I can feasebly beat protoss at diamond level. Look closer at pro Terran hotkey setups (and when I say pro, it's MKP, MMA and co.), they don't use more than 2 unit control groups at all times. The basic concept is that you have so much shit to hotkey separately (MM, Medivacs in one group to not waste, vikings, ghosts, a raven, 1st drop, second drop, etc...), that it becomes pointless to even try to do it optimaly, so pro terrans micro all their shit with their mouse in the end, with roughly one control group to double tap and center their army, maybe one for ghosts to cast EMPs and stim very fast without using tab. The 10 control groups Terran player is a complete myth. Just fyi, MKP uses up to 2 unit control groups (he has a third one available, but I rarely see him use it), one more for command centers, and one other for rax+fact+starport (he uses the tab method, as does MMA). That's 4 control groups. If he can handle it, I'm sure you can too. The key to playing fast is not hotkeys, it's your mouse speed and accuracy, not much else. Aganst HuK in the first game MKP used 3 control groups all game long. One for his big army, one for ghost, one for his defending army, and I didn't see his vikings hotkey. Why the huck would you have a raven xd, and you hotkey it with vikings/banshees. About APM stop talking about APM that doesn't mean shit, eAPM matters a bit more yet doesn't change a thing, foreign pros have high eAPM (Happy, Stephano etc) but they are far from the top tiers koreans mechanics (DRG, MKP, Mvp, MMA etc)
I'm not the one talking about APM in the first place. It just seems like Terran are always beaten by Protoss who have half their APM according to this thread...
And I think we actually agree on that topic, I mentioned that top pros don't have like 400 APM, they have 280 like everyone else but are much stronger mechanically than foreigners with the same APM. So yeah, APM don't mean shit, agreed.
And thanks for pointing out to me MKP's third control group, he does indeed some weird things with it, like rehokeying mid-fight all his stuff or adding random SCVs or drops or, sometimes, his second army back home (:D).
One thing is sure though, he doesn't need 3 control groups to micro his main army during a fight, and you can see that he keeps his vikings in 1 with his MMM, and when it's too hectic even adds ghosts in 1 too. It's definitely not the clean 1: MMM, 2: ghosts, 3: vikings that most Terrans claim you need to have to beat Protoss.
(And I was adding a Raven just to prove that you could always have one more reason to add an individual control group, but in practice you don't do it because there is just not enough keys)
And it's the same for MMA too, he has 2 as his main CC, 4 as his production, 5 as his natural's CC. So basically I've seen him use only 1 and 3 for units, that's not much.
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Omg, yay. I played on my smurf to level it up, as I was only 2-1. Drew toss first game, natch, on TDA and just did a weird late gas FE reactor rax -> 3-1-1 push. He called me a fag, so I danced and mule dropped him. Felt great.
Then I drew a
............
...........
TERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAN!!!
Oh my it was amazing. To beat a 950 terran, when youre 3-1. The real question is what the fuck is up with MMR to make me at 150 pts match 950 masters?
But god, the feeling of being in another game, with another terran... it's like heaven.
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If you think this isn't because Terran is severely underpowered, you are fooling yourself. Blizzard patches the game when statistics say there is balanced. Now when it is well beyond the margin of error they site by and make Terran worse still.
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Well if terran need 3 control groups then protoss needs 3 as well
Their gateways, their ht and their colossus.
Mechanics for terran have been the same since the game came out and in that time terran has gone from the easiest race to play to the most difficult race to play on this forum.
Yet none of the basic mechanics have changed and all patches where minor (1 range more here, a few sec building time there, its nothing big)
Am not saying that terran is not the hardest race to play btw, i realy have no clue about that.
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At the end of the day, Terran is still extremely successful at the GSL and that is why they keep nerfing the race.
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On March 16 2012 09:25 Rassy wrote:
Well if terran need 3 control groups then protoss needs 3 as well
Their gateways, their ht and their colossus.
Mechanics for terran have been the same since the game came out and in that time terran has gone from the easiest race to play to the most difficult race to play on this forum.
Yet none of the basic mechanics have changed and all patches where minor (1 range more here, a few sec building time there, its nothing big)
Am not saying that terran is not the hardest race to play btw, i realy have no clue about that.
Yeah, the terrans had just a couple of nerfs:
Battlecruiser: Ground damage decreased from 10 to 8.
Bunker: Build time increased from 30 to 35.
Reaper: Build time increased from 40 to 45.
Siege Tank: Siege mode damage changed from 50 to 35 (+15 armored).
Siege Tank: Upgrade damage changed from +5 to +3 (+2 armored).
Barracks requirement changed from Command Center to Supply Depot.
Medivac: Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25.
Medivac: Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5.
Reaper: Nitro Packs speed upgrade now has a Factory Requirement.
SCV: Repairing SCVs now assume the same threat priority as the unit they’re repairing.
Bunker: Build time increased from 35 to 40 seconds.
Ghost: EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy. The effect on Protoss shields remains unchanged.
Tech Lab: Stimpack upgrade research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds.
Bunker: Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%.
Ghost: Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100.
Thor: Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy.
Thor: 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed).
Barracks: Build time increased from 60 to 65.
Hellion: Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
Ghost: EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5
Ghost: Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 (+25 vs Psionic).
Orbital Command Center: MULE now always returns 30 minerals per trip, regardless of mineral type.
... and the biggest nerf: the map pool, which is not suitable for early aggression anymore.
TLDR: terran early aggression options were vastly limited while terran lategame sucks.
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On March 16 2012 09:37 Neurosis wrote:
At the end of the day, Terran is still extremely successful at the GSL and that is why they keep nerfing the race.
Nobody is denying that, but it says nothing about your average battlenet ladder player's experience playing terran. All of the things that allow terran to be so successful at the top level are the same things which make playing terran difficult for those of us without great mechanics. I am not saying that this should be changed to make it easier for terrans, just giving the explanation. And of course I could improve by "playing better," but it is just a really shitty feeling that I have to spend more effort and energy into getting the same results as an equivalently ranked protoss or zerg.
I find myself playing a lot less for a few different reasons namely:
TvP. Ever since the general protoss strategy shifted to mass zealot with fast armor upgrades a year ago I have struggled with the matchup. I have won maybe 10 legitimate "macro" TvPs since may 2011, and aside from that month or two of 1-1-1 dominance my win rate has been in the 30s and 20s. I'd like to note here that I was using the 1-1-1 so much back then because I was so tired of just getting a-moved over by millions of chargelots.
And even more off-putting is the sheer amount of venom and hatred that gets sent your way if you play terran. In a very large percentage of games you are called every nasty name in the book and mocked for playing terran, as if it is still the era of 5 rax reaper. I don't want to play if I am going to be faced with a significant and relatively more difficult challenge and also be verbally assaulted. It just isn't fun.
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On March 16 2012 09:49 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 09:25 Rassy wrote:
Well if terran need 3 control groups then protoss needs 3 as well
Their gateways, their ht and their colossus.
Mechanics for terran have been the same since the game came out and in that time terran has gone from the easiest race to play to the most difficult race to play on this forum.
Yet none of the basic mechanics have changed and all patches where minor (1 range more here, a few sec building time there, its nothing big)
Am not saying that terran is not the hardest race to play btw, i realy have no clue about that. Yeah, the terrans had just a couple of nerfs: Battlecruiser: Ground damage decreased from 10 to 8. Bunker: Build time increased from 30 to 35. Reaper: Build time increased from 40 to 45. Siege Tank: Siege mode damage changed from 50 to 35 (+15 armored). Siege Tank: Upgrade damage changed from +5 to +3 (+2 armored). Barracks requirement changed from Command Center to Supply Depot. Medivac: Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25. Medivac: Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5. Reaper: Nitro Packs speed upgrade now has a Factory Requirement. SCV: Repairing SCVs now assume the same threat priority as the unit they’re repairing. Bunker: Build time increased from 35 to 40 seconds. Ghost: EMP now drains up to 100 energy instead of all available energy. The effect on Protoss shields remains unchanged. Tech Lab: Stimpack upgrade research time increased from 140 to 170 seconds. Bunker: Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%. Ghost: Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100. Thor: Thor now has 200 max energy, and starts with 50 energy. Thor: 250mm Strike Cannons now cost 150 energy to use (cooldown removed). Barracks: Build time increased from 60 to 65. Hellion: Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. Ghost: EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5 Ghost: Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 (+25 vs Psionic). Orbital Command Center: MULE now always returns 30 minerals per trip, regardless of mineral type. ... and the biggest nerf: the map pool, which is not suitable for early aggression anymore. TLDR: terran early aggression options were vastly limited while terran lategame sucks.
Wow that really puts a lot in perspectice.
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Fact is: Most of the terrans from bronze-grandmasters struggle in TvP. TvP is just so unforgiving. You can play great and lose because you didn't see the Techswitch to Colossi/Storm. But the hardest thing is to micro in TvP. Micro your BioBall against Colossi, while using EMP and Micro your Vikings... just not possible until High Masters and 200+APM.
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On March 16 2012 09:25 Rassy wrote:
Well if terran need 3 control groups then protoss needs 3 as well
Their gateways, their ht and their colossus.
Mechanics for terran have been the same since the game came out and in that time terran has gone from the easiest race to play to the most difficult race to play on this forum.
Yet none of the basic mechanics have changed and all patches where minor (1 range more here, a few sec building time there, its nothing big)
Am not saying that terran is not the hardest race to play btw, i realy have no clue about that.
No Protoss doesn't need 3 hotkeys.... when I play Toss I have my entire army on 1 and just use tab to switch between storms and forcefields, the rest of the army (chargelots, collossi, archons, what have you) can literally be a moved. If the collossi somehow run too far upfront i jut double click them and pull them back, that is all I personally do when I engage with protoss in any matchup rly.
But terran needs 3 hotkeys, it's a NEED. you can't have ghosts and mmm on the same hotkey. Have you ever tried that? It's impossible because the ghosts always have to be upfront to EMP the HTs, if you run in your MMM ball first it will just melt, and you need vikings on a seperate control key aswell, because if you stutter step (which you will have to do) it messes up their AI when you have them on the same hotkey and they just never shoot.
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... and the biggest nerf: the map pool, which is not suitable for early aggression anymore.
Hmm i have to agree with that
Bigger maps are definatly not in terrans advantage and they are annoying to play for me (i play terran only)
Ok maybe terran needs more control groups then toss if play on a bit higher level, i dont know, i am not that good lol.
It just felt weird how terran has went from easy race to the most difficult race on this forum, while the most important things (basic mechanics and unit composition) did not change.
I still stand by the my opinnion at all those mentioned patches are only minor tweaks
They did not change how terran has to be played fundamentally, and the complains here are mostly about the fundamentals of playing terran,not about a specific patch or change.
you forgot the patch btw where they removed the energy from the tor and also the patch where they decreased the bunker time,
It would be interesting to add thoose just to show the problems blizzard has on getting balance right.
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On March 16 2012 09:25 Rassy wrote:
No Protoss doesn't need 3 hotkeys.... when I play Toss I have my entire army on 1 and just use tab to switch between storms and forcefields, the rest of the army (chargelots, collossi, archons, what have you) can literally be a moved. If the collossi somehow run too far upfront i jut double click them and pull them back, that is all I personally do when I engage with protoss in any matchup rly.
That's really subpar for a pro to be using, though I know some probably do. PvT ideally you'd want really fast access to at least blink and either FF or storm (with prism), often both, AND then you would also like to start having your chargelots on manual, and colossus need to be repositioned against specific threats. Add in an obs key rather than spamming your multipurpose CC bank for scans, too.
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I'm not trying to troll here, but I'm sure it will come off as one so whatevs.
I think most terran thought they were "good", or at the the very least making progress at SC2 with their terribly over powered race. After the race was brought in line with the other two, they got frustrated that they were all of a sudden required to have some mechanical skill and game knowledge into order to win any of their games, and decided to quit instead of putting in the effort to learn the game. This doesn't come as much of a surprise to me, as they were used to the satisfaction of winning without having to buckle down and actually improve themselves.
Just my 2cents.
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EPT
