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On March 16 2012 02:09 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
You're guaranteed to have over a 50% win rate in all match-ups, most immune to early game cheese, you can call down supply to cover your ass, float buildings, call down mules late game even when your econ is destroyed, etc....but yes, Terran is the hardest to play. Cheese is actually one of the most annoying things in TvP. Toss has at least 5 viable allins and semi-allins that are dead-easy to execute but are hard to scout and defend - TvP feels like a coinflip if you're not willing to allin yourself. Calling down supply means no MULE which means you'll be behind in income (we don't have chrono or larvae), it's only useful in mid-game and later.
You mean 2 base all-ins?
Because I can think of 3 viable 1 base all-ins that are not just bad, which are 3 Gate+Stargate, 4 Gate and 3 Gate Robo Blink Stalker. And none of them needs huge variation in how to deal with them, its mostly just build marines and a bunker. Essentially if you know that they are on 1 base or took 2 gas early you should be ready to defend aggression early on. Thats not cheesy, thats just logic.
They are all decently countered by just building marines. The blink stalker one can be tricky but it also hits a bit later, so you should have something besides pure marines at this point.
I don't really think there are 2 base all-ins for PvT, because usually if you hardcore pressure a terran with mass gates or with immortal sentry on 2 base you account for them losing a lot of SCVs during the attack, so they don't get ahead in worker count too much with their earlier third as long as they don't immediately die. Its just very a aggressive playstyle, can backfire sometimes.
I personally think the fast expansion into very aggressive play are the most annoying Protosses to deal with, because I'm never sure what they are chronoboosting at which point and how their workercount looks.
edit:
Oh right, I forgot the 4 gate + Warp Prism one, which can be tricky if you don't see it coming.
DTs on 1 base are a joke though, you shouldn't die to that ever.
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On March 16 2012 02:50 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20%  Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact.
I will not argue with those fact, though I have not seen them presented in a way that you list them above. I do believe there is likely an issue with late game TvP, though I am not sure how much of a change is needed. My problem is the tone of this thread as a whole, which is a whiney, entitled and generally bitchy. The idea that terran is so much harder than all the other races and people who play those races are scrubs is, to be frank, disgusting. I have had issues with the game and some match ups. But I have never got to the level this thread has gone to, with posters showing that they simply do not want to take the time to learn to play.
To be clear(because the anger is comming) there are a lot of terran players with valid points and I do think there are issues with the terran and the way the race works. The longer the game goes on, the more locked in the terran player becomes locked into a unit set and a lot of builds do not have clear points where a tech switch can take place.
I will also say that there is little documentation or guides to late game TvP. Most of the threads I have seen quickly move to the topic of balance, rather than how to play TvP and respond in the late game. Terran also does not have a star player/caster who streams and talks about how to improve his play. Protoss are lucky enough to have Artosis, Grubby, Incontrol, White-Ra, Nony and so many others who freely talk about why they win or lose games. This is the main way I have learned trick to play protoss and little ways to get a lead in the game. I don't know if anyone is doing that for Terran and something the race needs.
But at this point I am so tired of being called a scrub for playing protoss, I feel the needed to show my annoyance through humor. Its fun for me and I am sure a few people will chuckle from it. But for you struggling terrans who are not whining and might be a little grumpy that I am mocking your struggles, take it lightly.
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On March 16 2012 02:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:09 sushichef wrote:On March 16 2012 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
You're guaranteed to have over a 50% win rate in all match-ups, most immune to early game cheese, you can call down supply to cover your ass, float buildings, call down mules late game even when your econ is destroyed, etc....but yes, Terran is the hardest to play. Cheese is actually one of the most annoying things in TvP. Toss has at least 5 viable allins and semi-allins that are dead-easy to execute but are hard to scout and defend - TvP feels like a coinflip if you're not willing to allin yourself. Calling down supply means no MULE which means you'll be behind in income (we don't have chrono or larvae), it's only useful in mid-game and later. So wait, terran does not have 5 easy to pull off all-ins against protoss? I am confused, because I heard of this build called the 1/1/1 that is totally awesome against protoss. And then there are all the different versions of the marine-SCV-magic that makes me want to snap my keyboard in half. Proxy rax, two port banshee and hellion drops(we are talking about all-in here) are can be effective as well.
Terran have many viable all-ins, in the last week alone I have faced: 1-1-1s, thor all ins, weird two base marine scv all in w/stim, proxy banshees, and a suprisingly effective mass marine doom drop into my main.
However I can't really complain. In diamond league at least, many of them are fairly ineffectual or poorly executed. And lot of them are hard to pull off, for example 1-1-1s are terrible without good micro. And two well micro'd stalkers can kill a marine/scv all-in.
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So wait, terran does not have 5 easy to pull off all-ins against protoss? I am confused, because I heard of this build called the 1/1/1 that is totally awesome against protoss. And then there are all the different versions of the marine-SCV-magic that makes me want to snap my keyboard in half. Proxy rax, two port banshee and hellion drops(we are talking about all-in here) are can be effective as well.
And its not like there is one protoss build that can handle all of those. But that has little to do with this thread, since it is mostly for terrans to whine about the match up.
1-1-1 is good, the rest aren't and are easily scouted. Whereas if I see two early gas from a protoss I STILL need to try to find a way to check his nat -- because he could decide to expo. And even if I manage to confirm an allin -- which one is it? Blink stalkers? 3 gate void? Immortal bust? Warp prism 4 gate? One base colossus? DT? Each of those requires a different response and if you put your bunker in the wrong place, or drop a mule when you should've saved the energy - you're dead. If a protoss is any good they'll stop T from scouting their nat and then for all you know they didn't commit to the all-in and just suck up being economically behind.
Don't say "scans" -- P tech is too easy to hide, and scanning is a coinflip.
There's a theme in TvP -- it feels like a huge gamble from start to finish.
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Today I gave up. After two months of trying to reach GM I decided to switch to Protoss as main race.
No nothing is wrong with Terran, nothing at all - it's just collective hysteria.
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On March 16 2012 03:08 Plansix wrote:
To be clear(because the anger is comming) there are a lot of terran players with valid points and I do think there are issues with the terran and the way the race works. The longer the game goes on, the more locked in the terran player becomes to a unit set and a lot of builds do not have clear points where a tech switch can take place.
I'm a terran player and I think not even 10% of this thread is about valid points. Who cares if terran is harder in the silver to mid master regions? 1 year ago everyone said the same about zerg and everyone was bitching, now there are new maps and zergs learned how to deal with early aggression and now zerg is considered the easier race. The metagame is shifting a lot and there is a lot of unexplored territory, if the same seemingly imbalanced strategies get thrown at you every day for months, you will either stop playing or you will learn how to deal with it and find a way around it. Currently we are searching for a way around it in the TvP matchup, and the whiny bitching players will either switch race or stop playing.
But I have to say I don't really care about that 
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On March 16 2012 03:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:50 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact. I will not argue with those fact, though I have not seen them presented in a way that you list them above. I do believe there is likely an issue with late game TvP, though I am not sure how much of a change is needed. My problem is the tone of this thread as a whole, which is a whiney, entitled and generally bitchy. The idea that terran is so much harder than all the other races and people who play those races are scrubs is, to be frank, disgusting. I have had issues with the game and some match ups. But I have never got to the level this thread has gone to, with posters showing that they simply do not want to take the time to learn to play. To be clear(because the anger is comming) there are a lot of terran players with valid points and I do think there are issues with the terran and the way the race works. The longer the game goes on, the more locked in the terran player becomes locked into a unit set and a lot of builds do not have clear points where a tech switch can take place. I will also say that there is little documentation or guides to late game TvP. Most of the threads I have seen quickly move to the topic of balance, rather than how to play TvP and respond in the late game. Terran also does not have a star player/caster who streams and talks about how to improve his play. Protoss are lucky enough to have Artosis, Grubby, Incontrol, White-Ra, Nony and so many others who freely talk about why they win or lose games. This is the main way I have learned trick to play protoss and little ways to get a lead in the game. I don't know if anyone is doing that for Terran and something the race needs. But at this point I am so tired of being called a scrub for playing protoss, I feel the needed to show my annoyance through humor. Its fun for me and I am sure a few people will chuckle from it. But for you struggling terrans who are not whining and might be a little grumpy that I am mocking your struggles, take it lightly.
A lot of us, including myself, have been whining about toss for a while. I can see how it get's old. Same way us Terrans have been tired as hell of being called OP RACE because a few Koreans who play 12+ hours a day have become zen at the art of Terran. It's unrealistic for us to ever real their skill level. I mean do you think it'd be appropriate to mock Black people in real life for not being able to dunk? I mean, in the NBA Black people have the highest % of players with the ability to dunk. No. Of course not. It's annoying to hear "watch GSL" every time we have an issue, instead of getting concrete and solid advice or feedback. Aside from that, the thread that I got that info from is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315604 . I think it's still recent enough to reflect pretty accurately how Terran matchups are swinging nowadays. I don't know if there is a pro player that streams that is actually good at TvP. They all seem to lose to the same shit, from NA GMs to the GSL quality streamers like Bomber and NaDa.
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On March 16 2012 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
You're guaranteed to have over a 50% win rate in all match-ups, most immune to early game cheese, you can call down supply to cover your ass, float buildings, call down mules late game even when your econ is destroyed, etc....but yes, Terran is the hardest to play.
Heh, I *wish* Terran was most immune to earlygame cheese. I've been baneling busted, 3rax all-ined, 4gated, all kinds of stuff. I honestly find I've an easier time defending that stuff as Zerg, due to the ability to quickly crank out an army, the speed of said army, and the constant presence of atleast one queen at every hatch.
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On March 16 2012 03:08 Plansix wrote:
I will not argue with those fact, though I have not seen them presented in a way that you list them above. I do believe there is likely an issue with late game TvP, though I am not sure how much of a change is needed. My problem is the tone of this thread as a whole, which is a whiney, entitled and generally bitchy. The idea that terran is so much harder than all the other races and people who play those races are scrubs is, to be frank, disgusting. I have had issues with the game and some match ups. But I have never got to the level this thread has gone to, with posters showing that they simply do not want to take the time to learn to play.
To be clear(because the anger is comming) there are a lot of terran players with valid points and I do think there are issues with the terran and the way the race works. The longer the game goes on, the more locked in the terran player becomes locked into a unit set and a lot of builds do not have clear points where a tech switch can take place.
I will also say that there is little documentation or guides to late game TvP. Most of the threads I have seen quickly move to the topic of balance, rather than how to play TvP and respond in the late game. Terran also does not have a star player/caster who streams and talks about how to improve his play. Protoss are lucky enough to have Artosis, Grubby, Incontrol, White-Ra, Nony and so many others who freely talk about why they win or lose games. This is the main way I have learned trick to play protoss and little ways to get a lead in the game. I don't know if anyone is doing that for Terran and something the race needs.
But at this point I am so tired of being called a scrub for playing protoss, I feel the needed to show my annoyance through humor. Its fun for me and I am sure a few people will chuckle from it. But for you struggling terrans who are not whining and might be a little grumpy that I am mocking your struggles, take it lightly.
The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose game after game to protoss players with half their APM, even during engagements; how frustrating it is to get rolled after putting in a good effort for 25m just because you didn't spread your marines and missed that one HT with your EMP and now half of your army is dead. Or how frustrating it is to trade armies and then have 20 3-3 zealots and a few archons arrive at your expo, A-move into the PF and kill it.
There are plenty of good T streamers that talk through their games: Strelok, Demuslim and Sterling are the ones I watch, and guess what -- they've all been saying how unforgiving TvP is. MVP was streaming the other day and he was losing to late game zealot and archon insanity.
Not all protoss players are scrubs -- but there are plenty that show little game sense, sit at their base chronoing upgrades, move out at 200/200 and win. All whilst the terran is scrambling to do some damage to get ahead.
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I must admit that PvT seems really easy compared to PvZ. It seems like if you can defend the Terran mid game drops, you enter the late game with a big advantage. Terrans don't/can't utilize Tier 3 tech apart from infantry upgrades from what I see. Colossus/HT/Archon late game combo with lots of gates for instant remax really puts the ball in the Protoss's court. But I'm no pro, so just take my anecdote with a grain of salt.
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On March 16 2012 03:14 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +
So wait, terran does not have 5 easy to pull off all-ins against protoss? I am confused, because I heard of this build called the 1/1/1 that is totally awesome against protoss. And then there are all the different versions of the marine-SCV-magic that makes me want to snap my keyboard in half. Proxy rax, two port banshee and hellion drops(we are talking about all-in here) are can be effective as well.
And its not like there is one protoss build that can handle all of those. But that has little to do with this thread, since it is mostly for terrans to whine about the match up.
1-1-1 is good, the rest aren't and are easily scouted. Whereas if I see two early gas from a protoss I STILL need to try to find a way to check his nat -- because he could decide to expo. And even if I manage to confirm an allin -- which one is it? Blink stalkers? 3 gate void? Immortal bust? Warp prism 4 gate? One base colossus? DT? Each of those requires a different response and if you put your bunker in the wrong place, or drop a mule when you should've saved the energy - you're dead. If a protoss is any good they'll stop T from scouting their nat and then for all you know they didn't commit to the all-in and just suck up being economically behind. Don't say "scans" -- P tech is too easy to hide, and scanning is a coinflip. There's a theme in TvP -- it feels like a huge gamble from start to finish.
I think you over estimate how easy it is for a protoss safely to scout out a one base all-in or get a good read. Most terrars who are going this route know the obs timing and actively try to snipe it. Now, most will say that we can just build another, but that is valuable gas and time that the robo could be doing something else It seems easy, but for every time a protoss hold off your all in with style, they have been caught off guard by a misread or some hidden tech. Only when I review the replays do I catch what I missed. I am not saying that protoss is harder, I would say the scouting for both races has its pitfalls. And all of the builds I names require some pretty specific responses and don't have a lot of room for error, either.
In short, I think what I am trying to say is: Starcraft 2 is hard, regardless what race you play.
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On March 15 2012 08:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:39 Fission wrote:On March 15 2012 05:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 15 2012 05:11 Fission wrote:
492 games total
229 TvP
151 TvZ
112 TvT
Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community. You can't even make a terran help thread on forums without people coming out of the woodworks to mock you.There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
I'm also sick to death of the endless bm I get from entitled protoss players. I'll say "gg wp" and leave, and half the time I play on north america, the protoss players will spam me afterwards calling me names and stroking their genitalia. Like, I was probably the only terran player they've met in days, is it really neccessary to bm? Do people just want endless pvp, zvz and zvp? It seems like it... When we call you names and stroke our genitalia, please just take it as a compliment. The names are probably terms of endearment. Most of the time, when we're chatting online to other people and stroking our genitalia, we're thinking quite fondly of the other people, not having negative thoughts. By the way, is there any chance that a Terran player has ever messaged a Protoss player after the game, to engage in similar name-calling and genital stroking? I feel that, as a Protoss player, I've been the masturbatory fantasy of many a Terran player, who has chosen to engage in innocent ban-mannered banter after I've thrown down the "gg wp" and left the game. I too can feel the sexual tension build between us. Pretty typical condescending reply from a position of entitlement. Why are you posting in this thread if you are only here to belittle people? I think you are taking that post a bit to seriously, my friend. He is clearly mocking the concept of that "Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community." And to be honest, posts and comments like that one should be mocked. Or maybe you are also denying the sexual tension between you and your protoss opponents? These are hard things to determine.
But there's a grain of truth to it. He's right in that any sort of Terran help thread on a forum or whatever gets a huge wave of trolls coming in to shit over everything saying "maek marines XDDDDD" In my own experience I've gotten lots of abuse playing Terran and having my Terran playing friends tell me about all the shit they get. I played Terran in beta and switched to Zerg for most of SC2's lifespan before switching back to T recently and the bias against the race is very noticeable. Not only is playing most of the matchups incredibly hard (I can say TvZ is 500% more difficult than ZvT) but the amount of shit you get from a very vocal subset of Z & P players just kills your interest in playing the game. Worse yet it helps foster a large amount of resentment against the other races and the people who play them which is the exact problem T faces. It's a shitty situation caused by loud stupid fucks holding onto antiquated ideas of imbalance.
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There is actually no design issue with Terran. I think we can safely say that it's the best designed race in the game. However, maybe their units are too weak and need a buff (which Blizzard will do if Terran is really that hard to play).
But it's very different from a design issue. For example, Protoss with 1000 hp zealots could be very badly designed, it will win 100% of the time nonetheless...
If it feels like Terran has to micro too much to win, well Blizzard will buff the units stats and that it, Terran is a strong race once again.
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On March 16 2012 03:30 Bosscelot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:30 Plansix wrote:On March 15 2012 07:39 Fission wrote:On March 15 2012 05:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 15 2012 05:11 Fission wrote:
492 games total
229 TvP
151 TvZ
112 TvT
Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community. You can't even make a terran help thread on forums without people coming out of the woodworks to mock you.There's basically no guides, very little pro-input, and the matchups remain massively difficult for non code S players.
I'm also sick to death of the endless bm I get from entitled protoss players. I'll say "gg wp" and leave, and half the time I play on north america, the protoss players will spam me afterwards calling me names and stroking their genitalia. Like, I was probably the only terran player they've met in days, is it really neccessary to bm? Do people just want endless pvp, zvz and zvp? It seems like it... When we call you names and stroke our genitalia, please just take it as a compliment. The names are probably terms of endearment. Most of the time, when we're chatting online to other people and stroking our genitalia, we're thinking quite fondly of the other people, not having negative thoughts. By the way, is there any chance that a Terran player has ever messaged a Protoss player after the game, to engage in similar name-calling and genital stroking? I feel that, as a Protoss player, I've been the masturbatory fantasy of many a Terran player, who has chosen to engage in innocent ban-mannered banter after I've thrown down the "gg wp" and left the game. I too can feel the sexual tension build between us. Pretty typical condescending reply from a position of entitlement. Why are you posting in this thread if you are only here to belittle people? I think you are taking that post a bit to seriously, my friend. He is clearly mocking the concept of that "Terrans have quit because we're a marginalized sc2 sub-community." And to be honest, posts and comments like that one should be mocked. Or maybe you are also denying the sexual tension between you and your protoss opponents? These are hard things to determine. But there's a grain of truth to it. He's right in that any sort of Terran help thread on a forum or whatever gets a huge wave of trolls coming in to shit over everything saying "maek marines XDDDDD" In my own experience I've gotten lots of abuse playing Terran and having my Terran playing friends tell me about all the shit they get. I played Terran in beta and switched to Zerg for most of SC2's lifespan before switching back to T recently and the bias against the race is very noticeable. Not only is playing most of the matchups incredibly hard (I can say TvZ is 500% more difficult than ZvT) but the amount of shit you get from a very vocal subset of Z & P players just kills your interest in playing the game. Worse yet it helps foster a large amount of resentment against the other races and the people who play them which is the exact problem T faces. It's a shitty situation caused by loud stupid fucks holding onto antiquated ideas of imbalance.
So incredibly true. Seriously. I never played anything but terran, but still, no matter how well mannered I am, I still get shit from people. Like last night I was feeling really great and nice and stuff, so I would open up with more than just "GLHF"; like making jokes and stuff. Then, TWO TIMES IN A ROW, the enemy zerg quick hatched without a pool. Naturally I 2raxed, and won easily after crippling their economy (they didn't even try to stop the bunker it seems), and then got rage. Like I was really friendly, borderline flirting (  ), but still... "Dumb terran cunt, learn to play a real race."
So disheartening. =/
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On March 16 2012 03:27 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:08 Plansix wrote:
I will not argue with those fact, though I have not seen them presented in a way that you list them above. I do believe there is likely an issue with late game TvP, though I am not sure how much of a change is needed. My problem is the tone of this thread as a whole, which is a whiney, entitled and generally bitchy. The idea that terran is so much harder than all the other races and people who play those races are scrubs is, to be frank, disgusting. I have had issues with the game and some match ups. But I have never got to the level this thread has gone to, with posters showing that they simply do not want to take the time to learn to play.
To be clear(because the anger is comming) there are a lot of terran players with valid points and I do think there are issues with the terran and the way the race works. The longer the game goes on, the more locked in the terran player becomes locked into a unit set and a lot of builds do not have clear points where a tech switch can take place.
I will also say that there is little documentation or guides to late game TvP. Most of the threads I have seen quickly move to the topic of balance, rather than how to play TvP and respond in the late game. Terran also does not have a star player/caster who streams and talks about how to improve his play. Protoss are lucky enough to have Artosis, Grubby, Incontrol, White-Ra, Nony and so many others who freely talk about why they win or lose games. This is the main way I have learned trick to play protoss and little ways to get a lead in the game. I don't know if anyone is doing that for Terran and something the race needs.
But at this point I am so tired of being called a scrub for playing protoss, I feel the needed to show my annoyance through humor. Its fun for me and I am sure a few people will chuckle from it. But for you struggling terrans who are not whining and might be a little grumpy that I am mocking your struggles, take it lightly. The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose game after game to protoss players with half their APM, even during engagements; how frustrating it is to get rolled after putting in a good effort for 25m just because you didn't spread your marines and missed that one HT with your EMP and now half of your army is dead. Or how frustrating it is to trade armies and then have 20 3-3 zealots and a few archons arrive at your expo, A-move into the PF and kill it. There are plenty of good T streamers that talk through their games: Strelok, Demuslim and Sterling are the ones I watch, and guess what -- they've all been saying how unforgiving TvP is. MVP was streaming the other day and he was losing to late game zealot and archon insanity. Not all protoss players are scrubs -- but there are plenty that show little game sense, sit at their base chronoing upgrades, move out at 200/200 and win. All whilst the terran is scrambling to do some damage to get ahead.
I am all good with what you said except for that part. If terrans could drop that part and say this:
"The reason terran players "whine" is how disheartening it is to lose after 20 minutes and not really understand why it happened."
I am not saying that the protoss had to micro to win the last battle of the game, but the game may have been over long before that battle took place. Most protoss play safe and don't try to finish off a terran until they know they can crush them with minor effort. That is how I play every game against terran. Why? Because terran has an amazing ability to take advantage of mistakes and run with them. Playing that safely is a product throwing away leads that never should have been lost. So when you say that a Protoss player won with half the APM, it because they focused all their effort into getting to a point when they could not lose. Discounting that is insulting and adds nothing to your argument.
If someone wants to look at their replays, I am sure a protoss player could tell you the exact moment when you lost the. Further more, I am sure it will not be near the end of the game. That is how the match up works, sadly. It sucks on both sides, because a protoss has to basicly wait for a one-base-terran to mine out or just totally blow it.
And again, the end game might be a bit messed up. I respect all the players you named and I am willing to take their word for it. But I also think they want to work on it a bit before they say a change is needed. After all, Demuslim, also said that Ghosts needed work(and I agree that they were over nerfted when it came to snipe).
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On March 16 2012 02:50 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact.
And it's also a fact that terran have a higher win rate mid game. But that's not something you want to acknowledge, right?
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On March 16 2012 03:44 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:50 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact. And it's also a fact that terran have a higher win rate mid game. But that's not something you want to acknowledge, right?
It's my opinion that it is much easier to prolong a game past the mid game than it is to win at that time. Personal thought, I don't know how it is for you.
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On March 16 2012 03:49 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:44 tomatriedes wrote:On March 16 2012 02:50 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact. And it's also a fact that terran have a higher win rate mid game. But that's not something you want to acknowledge, right? It's my opinion that it is much easier to prolong a game past the mid game than it is to win at that time. Personal thought, I don't know how it is for you.
Well the higher win rate may show that is not the case. However, we would need to see the total number of game that got to the late game and compare it to those that ended in the mid game.
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But then the plus side of playing Terran is, you barely have to play mirror matches, and when you do, its fun! :D
Seriously though, TvP lategame is a bit ridiculas, but so is whining. Either play more agressive or switch races. (or read on)
If the game gets patched too much too fast, all the options will not have been explored and this will only cause more patches in the future. I use TvZ in Brood Wars as referance.
Also, take this with a grain of salt, but I think Thorzains TvP is insane. All this Battle-Cruiser nonsense and Mech nonsense.. is nonsense. Study Thorzains idea behind TvP, he is very passive, even more so conservitive, yet he wins.
I dont claim to be gosu, I lose lategame TvP just like you, but I honestly feel like Thorzain has the right mentality towards TvP.
When you play vs Zerg and face of against BL, you drop the expansions, limit gas / income / production, wither him down.
So if you were Protoss, and all Terran does is split up his army, drop harras you.. He is one: Splitting up his forces (less units, less medivacs) and Two: Throwing away army supply.
16 less Marines?? (or 8 less marauders) Only 4 medivacs??
Shit I would push aswell if I knew that a 3rd of terrans healing power is occupied killing off some probes.
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On March 16 2012 03:49 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:44 tomatriedes wrote:On March 16 2012 02:50 SupLilSon wrote:On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact. And it's also a fact that terran have a higher win rate mid game. But that's not something you want to acknowledge, right? It's my opinion that it is much easier to prolong a game past the mid game than it is to win at that time. Personal thought, I don't know how it is for you.
It may or may not be easier, but it's strategically inferior. Being able to dictate the pace of the game, even if you "have" to do it, is a huge advantage.
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EPT
