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On March 15 2012 20:56 sushichef wrote:
The basic problem with TvP for me is with the marine-zealot relationship. Zealots are so good, require no micro, and can be replenished instantly. Marines are the only unit terrans have that kill zealots well (with stim, shields, and medics), whereas zealots do well against all terran ground units. (Hellions don't count because you won't have upgrades and factories to produce them.) The problem is that protoss have two units that murder marines and their medivac support with much less effort than that required to counter the marine counters. Basically: it's too easy to kill marines for P, it's too difficult to keep them alive for T, and when you lose your marines you lose the game to zealots.
Marines and Marauders ANNIHILATE Zealots early game. So yeah, they've got to be better late game or they'd be totally worthless.
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Terran is the man race; it's only natural that it's also the hardest.
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You're guaranteed to have over a 50% win rate in all match-ups, most immune to early game cheese, you can call down supply to cover your ass, float buildings, call down mules late game even when your econ is destroyed, etc....but yes, Terran is the hardest to play.
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On March 16 2012 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
You're guaranteed to have over a 50% win rate in all match-ups, most immune to early game cheese, you can call down supply to cover your ass, float buildings, call down mules late game even when your econ is destroyed, etc....but yes, Terran is the hardest to play.
So wait, my TvP win rate is around 30%, where can I file a complaint? That guarantee didn't work for me.
edit: and by the way, good job naming all the fsmall advantages terran has over the other races, clearly a completely objective post since you disregard any disadvantage at all. Guaranteed 50% win rate haha.
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On March 15 2012 21:37 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 21:28 CaptainCrush wrote:On March 15 2012 16:29 Pro]ChoSen- wrote:
I think the game is perfectly balanced (or at least as close as they can get it) but I keep thinking about switching from Terran cuz the map pool keeps getting more and more anti-Terran. The game itself is fine as far as balance, its the maps that create imbalance.
I've played all races at a high master level for my main race so I can appreciate all races but I ended up choosing Terran. It is crazy though that they are the campaign race and they are the least played ^^ I think you have lost your mind... I still have no idea how to deal with broods, especially if the zerg gets 8-10 corrupters with them. If they follow with a few infestors and/or queens then its GG, basically impossible to stop. There is absolutely NOTHING balanced about that composition when facing a terran. Thors do not do enough damage to massive and rines get their shit fungaled all to hell in a matter of seconds. I also completely agree with everyone saying how ridiculous it is that zerg and toss get to simply play sim-city in the early game while a terran has to do the same AND do economic damage just to even stand a chance in the late game. It's actually the same in PvZ, you have to do damage in some way or hope to get away with a risky early third. If you don't do one of these two things, you just lose under an unfathomable amount of Zerg shit.
Now imagine not having any viable tier 3 units and trying to end the game early in ALL of your non-mirror matches. Thors have some use in TvZ if the zerg has gone mutas, otherwise, we really have nothing for late game. Toss at least has colossi, archons, and even the archon toilet if they tech to mothership. I think the last patch did more harm than good for the overall balance of the game.
On March 16 2012 00:18 Rygasm wrote:
Terran is the man race; it's only natural that it's also the hardest.
Exactly, its the only reason I havent switched races yet :/
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On March 16 2012 00:16 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 20:56 sushichef wrote:
The basic problem with TvP for me is with the marine-zealot relationship. Zealots are so good, require no micro, and can be replenished instantly. Marines are the only unit terrans have that kill zealots well (with stim, shields, and medics), whereas zealots do well against all terran ground units. (Hellions don't count because you won't have upgrades and factories to produce them.) The problem is that protoss have two units that murder marines and their medivac support with much less effort than that required to counter the marine counters. Basically: it's too easy to kill marines for P, it's too difficult to keep them alive for T, and when you lose your marines you lose the game to zealots. Marines and Marauders ANNIHILATE Zealots early game. So yeah, they've got to be better late game or they'd be totally worthless.
No they don't, unless you count stim, shields, and medics as early game. Forcefields+zealots and stalkers own marines and marauders in equal supply before stim and medics. Gateway units are stupidly good early on. There's a small window in mid-game when they're weak and not enough AoE is available to toss, but once that's over, playing TvP is like walking on ice for terran. One misstep and you die.
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On March 16 2012 01:58 CaptainCrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 21:37 ZenithM wrote:On March 15 2012 21:28 CaptainCrush wrote:On March 15 2012 16:29 Pro]ChoSen- wrote:
I think the game is perfectly balanced (or at least as close as they can get it) but I keep thinking about switching from Terran cuz the map pool keeps getting more and more anti-Terran. The game itself is fine as far as balance, its the maps that create imbalance.
I've played all races at a high master level for my main race so I can appreciate all races but I ended up choosing Terran. It is crazy though that they are the campaign race and they are the least played ^^ I think you have lost your mind... I still have no idea how to deal with broods, especially if the zerg gets 8-10 corrupters with them. If they follow with a few infestors and/or queens then its GG, basically impossible to stop. There is absolutely NOTHING balanced about that composition when facing a terran. Thors do not do enough damage to massive and rines get their shit fungaled all to hell in a matter of seconds. I also completely agree with everyone saying how ridiculous it is that zerg and toss get to simply play sim-city in the early game while a terran has to do the same AND do economic damage just to even stand a chance in the late game. It's actually the same in PvZ, you have to do damage in some way or hope to get away with a risky early third. If you don't do one of these two things, you just lose under an unfathomable amount of Zerg shit. Now imagine not having any viable tier 3 units and trying to end the game early in ALL of your non-mirror matches. Thors have some use in TvZ if the zerg has gone mutas, otherwise, we really have nothing for late game. Toss at least has colossi, archons, and even the archon toilet if they tech to mothership. I think the last patch did more harm than good for the overall balance of the game. Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 00:18 Rygasm wrote:
Terran is the man race; it's only natural that it's also the hardest. Exactly, its the only reason I havent switched races yet :/
So you are complaining, because you have the feeling Terran is harder, yet the only reason why you havent switched is because it feels harder?
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On March 16 2012 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
You're guaranteed to have over a 50% win rate in all match-ups, most immune to early game cheese, you can call down supply to cover your ass, float buildings, call down mules late game even when your econ is destroyed, etc....but yes, Terran is the hardest to play.
Cheese is actually one of the most annoying things in TvP. Toss has at least 5 viable allins and semi-allins that are dead-easy to execute but are hard to scout and defend - TvP feels like a coinflip if you're not willing to allin yourself. Calling down supply means no MULE which means you'll be behind in income (we don't have chrono or larvae), it's only useful in mid-game and later.
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I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering.
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All terrans are in IPL ToC!
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On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering.
lol I know what you mean
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On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean
Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% 
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On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering.
Haha, made me smile. 
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On March 16 2012 02:09 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 00:27 jdsowa wrote:
You're guaranteed to have over a 50% win rate in all match-ups, most immune to early game cheese, you can call down supply to cover your ass, float buildings, call down mules late game even when your econ is destroyed, etc....but yes, Terran is the hardest to play. Cheese is actually one of the most annoying things in TvP. Toss has at least 5 viable allins and semi-allins that are dead-easy to execute but are hard to scout and defend - TvP feels like a coinflip if you're not willing to allin yourself. Calling down supply means no MULE which means you'll be behind in income (we don't have chrono or larvae), it's only useful in mid-game and later.
So wait, terran does not have 5 easy to pull off all-ins against protoss? I am confused, because I heard of this build called the 1/1/1 that is totally awesome against protoss. And then there are all the different versions of the marine-SCV-magic that makes me want to snap my keyboard in half. Proxy rax, two port banshee and hellion drops(we are talking about all-in here) are can be effective as well.
And its not like there is one protoss build that can handle all of those. But that has little to do with this thread, since it is mostly for terrans to whine about the match up.
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On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20%
Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up.
1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent.
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On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent.
Implying I use 3 control groups for my army. And I am a diamond player.
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On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent.
People have analyzed large pools of data and presented us with their results and conclusions. In a sample size of over 21000 games Protoss found to have a 60+% rate of winning in TvP after 20 minutes. Massive advantage was seen until the 35 minute mark when it somewhat evens out. It's not debatable atm. Maybe it's not purely balance, maybe it's metagame centric, but w/e the case, Terran is experiencing sub 40% win rates late game. That's a fact.
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On March 16 2012 02:42 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:41 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 02:30 Tarotis wrote:On March 16 2012 02:28 MaV_gGSC wrote:On March 16 2012 02:21 MrFrenchy wrote:
I have located the terrans. They are hiding in diamond league, performing an astounding array of creative all-ins against protoss players, generally around 9pm MST when I am laddering. lol I know what you mean Yup, I know the feeling. This season 32% of my games are against terran (a lot more than last season), but I only have a winrate of 20% Quite you, Protoss don't lose to terrans! Stop spreading lies, we have all figured how to get to the late game and we now win 87% of our games PvT. Last night mauled five terrans in long games alone. Once I got throught the early game, was able to free up enough AMP to pay my bills and write some letters to friends that I had not talked to in a while. It really added some much needed challenge to the match up. 1A, 2A, 3A, submit payment to AT&T, update address information, storms, minor micro to colossi, pay Nstar, remax with 57 warpgates, email college buddy to get beers this weekend, respond to BM from oppenent. Implying I use 3 control groups for my army. And I am a diamond player.
I believe you ment to say "I am a protoss player". We have moved beyond neededing three control groups and now only require 2 to make our army effective. Really, I hope we can move beyond control groups as a whole and start to work on eliminating the right mouse button all together. In five years, top level protoss will control their armies with through subtitle eys movements and be able to cast feed back by glaring at the offending unit with righteous anger.
"Medivac, you dare attempt to drop my main!" MC glares at screen, medivac explodes and the USB port on MMA's mouse shorts out.
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Seriously, I'm a terran player but this thread is a bit sad. If you are not a progamer there is ALWAYS something you can do better in TvZ and TvP. Everytime you get rolled by Protoss deathball/Zerg BL/Infestor think if a progamer would of lost that game? The answer is always NO, they probably would of won the game before thanks to their mechanics/agression.
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EPT
