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[IEM] New York Discussion - Page 57

Forum Index > LoL Tournaments
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Icysoul
Profile Joined December 2007
Canada254 Posts
October 14 2011 05:12 GMT
#1121
god dam it TSM, stop disappointing ur fans
DarkRise
Profile Joined November 2010
1644 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 05:24:07
October 14 2011 05:19 GMT
#1122
To be honest TSM need a better jungler someone like Jatt or SV. They play like "carry" from the jungle while oddone play like a support. His ganks are so so and his jungle path is predictable.SV even comment on oddone's jungling in his stream and point out all his habit and jungle paths. So funny because he is soooo right since i always watch TSM scrims and their games in different tourney. He was good back in the day when counter jungle was strong.
I think TSM's Chaox+Xpecial are the best bottom laner. Reginaid either play godly or get shut down early game. Rainman is a good top laner with a lot of champions on his armory but somewhat get loss in team fights sometimes.
They just started a team house so let's expect better games from them in the future
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
October 14 2011 05:48 GMT
#1123
To be fair, most of the top teams junglers play a more support role. Jatt and saint are more the exceptions and I think their style is actually superior so I wouldn't be surprised if OddOne and other junglers pick up on it and start playing like that.

TSM is far too reliant on Reginald imo. If he does well his team wins and if he doesn't they usually lose.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 06:28:09
October 14 2011 06:18 GMT
#1124
On October 14 2011 14:48 overt wrote:
To be fair, most of the top teams junglers play a more support role. Jatt and saint are more the exceptions and I think their style is actually superior so I wouldn't be surprised if OddOne and other junglers pick up on it and start playing like that.

TSM is far too reliant on Reginald imo. If he does well his team wins and if he doesn't they usually lose.

People keep saying stuff like "Saint and Jatt play junglers as carries" etc, like they just magically get that farm by themselves. It's not just the jungler's decision. It has to do with team-comps and how the team plays. No matter how well a jungler plays his jungle, he's not going to get carry-level farm just from farming jungle. The farm has to come from somewhere, and that means it has to come off the laners. CLG makes supportive solo picks that can give up farm (e.g. Galio), so they can support giving farm to Saint (even when they can't, Elementz mentioned in his post about CLG's issues that Chauster has trouble getting farm midgame sometimes as AD because Saint and Hotshot hog farm more than they should sometimes).

Saint and Jatt don't get carry-level farm just because they choose to. It's a team-level decision on how to split farm among the lanes and jungle (e.g. Jatt farms top while top comes down to gank for mid/bot), and the team needs to get used to playing that style, not just the jungler.
Moderator
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
October 14 2011 06:44 GMT
#1125
On October 14 2011 14:19 DarkRise wrote:
To be honest TSM need a better jungler someone like Jatt or SV. They play like "carry" from the jungle while oddone play like a support. His ganks are so so and his jungle path is predictable.SV even comment on oddone's jungling in his stream and point out all his habit and jungle paths. So funny because he is soooo right since i always watch TSM scrims and their games in different tourney. He was good back in the day when counter jungle was strong.
I think TSM's Chaox+Xpecial are the best bottom laner. Reginaid either play godly or get shut down early game. Rainman is a good top laner with a lot of champions on his armory but somewhat get loss in team fights sometimes.
They just started a team house so let's expect better games from them in the future

Rainman has like 2 champs that he can play proficiently. I've never seen him really win his lane.
God Bless
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
October 14 2011 07:15 GMT
#1126
On October 14 2011 14:19 DarkRise wrote:
To be honest TSM need a better jungler someone like Jatt or SV. They play like "carry" from the jungle while oddone play like a support. His ganks are so so and his jungle path is predictable.SV even comment on oddone's jungling in his stream and point out all his habit and jungle paths. So funny because he is soooo right since i always watch TSM scrims and their games in different tourney. He was good back in the day when counter jungle was strong.
I think TSM's Chaox+Xpecial are the best bottom laner. Reginaid either play godly or get shut down early game. Rainman is a good top laner with a lot of champions on his armory but somewhat get loss in team fights sometimes.
They just started a team house so let's expect better games from them in the future

Honestly, I feel like Rainman's the weakest link in TSM. He can play a lot of solo top champs, but he's only really amazing with a few of them. I mean, his claim to fame was rank 1 teemo, not exactly bruisers.

TOO is a great counterjungler, but ever since Nunu got nerfed and the strong carry-type junglers got popular he just isn't as game-changing a force as he used to be. He's still an amazing jungler, but the stuff he does for TSM is much more subtle and under the radar than what SV or Jatt does.
daemir
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland8662 Posts
October 14 2011 07:19 GMT
#1127
shushei must have gone

oh snap

in the part where he solo initiated on the whole enemy team, and then his team comes to mop it up after he falls.

hmm that kinda reminds me a lot of their scrims I've seens on his stream, shushei has a plan and the team first watches him die then goes to finish the fight, just because ^_^
ihasaKAROT
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4730 Posts
October 14 2011 07:19 GMT
#1128
I agree with the above. TheOddOne needs to improve his jungleselection and Rainman needs to step up his game if he can. Hes a good player but hes just not good enough to play at this level I feel sometimes. Its the little things he does wrong like just be slightly ahead of his team with Sion in game1. He got caught several times with his pants (shield) down, stunned and focussed in a few seconds. Sion is a great champ when played correctly, rainman made me feel bad for the lumberjack at some point ://

I was surprised with Fnatic, what a great synergy they have
KCCO!
Ota Solgryn
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Denmark2011 Posts
October 14 2011 07:26 GMT
#1129
On October 14 2011 10:06 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
On October 14 2011 07:27 arnath wrote:
I was surprised by the bans in this tournament. For some reason, at IPL last weekend everybody bans Kog every game and then they come here and leave Kog up every game.


Kog is a must ban. :<

I'm not sure how I feel about that. Because if you ban Kog, and the other team grabs Cait, you either have to play Vayne vs Cait (which is an uphill battle), or try something with the less-common AD carries, which may not be as reliable, depending on the support picks. With Kog, in the pool, you can expect 1 side to pick Kog, the other to pick Cait, and have a reasonable laning phase, with the team that got Cait trying to pick something aggressive to anti-carry Kog.

If anything, I'm surprised at teams leaving Zilean up AND THEN giving up Kog after the other team already got Zilean. Either ban Zilean, or don't leave Kog in the pool after they FP him. Trying to anti-carry past Zilean is too much of a nightmare.


Why is cait so strong in top elo?. In my elo (1600) she never seems that strong and I mostly rapes her with Ashe etc. I understand alot of different "rules" apply to high level, but could anyone explain?
ihasaKAROT: "Wish people would stop wasting their lives on finding flaws in others"
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 08:04:07
October 14 2011 08:03 GMT
#1130
On October 14 2011 16:26 Ota Solgryn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 10:06 TheYango wrote:
On October 14 2011 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
On October 14 2011 07:27 arnath wrote:
I was surprised by the bans in this tournament. For some reason, at IPL last weekend everybody bans Kog every game and then they come here and leave Kog up every game.


Kog is a must ban. :<

I'm not sure how I feel about that. Because if you ban Kog, and the other team grabs Cait, you either have to play Vayne vs Cait (which is an uphill battle), or try something with the less-common AD carries, which may not be as reliable, depending on the support picks. With Kog, in the pool, you can expect 1 side to pick Kog, the other to pick Cait, and have a reasonable laning phase, with the team that got Cait trying to pick something aggressive to anti-carry Kog.

If anything, I'm surprised at teams leaving Zilean up AND THEN giving up Kog after the other team already got Zilean. Either ban Zilean, or don't leave Kog in the pool after they FP him. Trying to anti-carry past Zilean is too much of a nightmare.


Why is cait so strong in top elo?. In my elo (1600) she never seems that strong and I mostly rapes her with Ashe etc. I understand alot of different "rules" apply to high level, but could anyone explain?

Her range and abilities give her great lane control and make her hard to gank early game. It is really hard to stop a cait from farming up to her first 140 or so creep, which lets her get T3 items really quick. The traps can be used to zone enemies to your advantage, as well as providing vision. She combos really well with the likes of taric and alistar, because they offer a stun and heal to hold targets in place. This can also lead to cool aggressive moves, like coordinating with taric to stun a target and instantly place a trap underneath them, causing a 4 second stun. It's also just nice for holding them in place to get a clear peacemaker shot off. Her damage scales well into the late game with her passive, piltover pokes, and ulti, so she doesn't fall off. Her net is a great escape tool, providing both a slow and the knockback to re-position her. With positioning being the most important part of playing an AD carry, this is very helpful. She is just an overall solid range AD that is well rounded for damage, utility, escape, and poke.

Kogma has GREAT damage, good poke, and good utility with his slow and vision from ulti, but no escape. Vayne has great damage, utility, escape, but no poke. Ezreal has great poke, great escape, good damage, but no utility. Cait sort of takes what is good from all of these common picks and does them all, but toned down a little.
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
locodoco
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1615 Posts
October 14 2011 09:07 GMT
#1131
On October 14 2011 17:03 Gooey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 16:26 Ota Solgryn wrote:
On October 14 2011 10:06 TheYango wrote:
On October 14 2011 07:28 NeoIllusions wrote:
On October 14 2011 07:27 arnath wrote:
I was surprised by the bans in this tournament. For some reason, at IPL last weekend everybody bans Kog every game and then they come here and leave Kog up every game.


Kog is a must ban. :<

I'm not sure how I feel about that. Because if you ban Kog, and the other team grabs Cait, you either have to play Vayne vs Cait (which is an uphill battle), or try something with the less-common AD carries, which may not be as reliable, depending on the support picks. With Kog, in the pool, you can expect 1 side to pick Kog, the other to pick Cait, and have a reasonable laning phase, with the team that got Cait trying to pick something aggressive to anti-carry Kog.

If anything, I'm surprised at teams leaving Zilean up AND THEN giving up Kog after the other team already got Zilean. Either ban Zilean, or don't leave Kog in the pool after they FP him. Trying to anti-carry past Zilean is too much of a nightmare.


Why is cait so strong in top elo?. In my elo (1600) she never seems that strong and I mostly rapes her with Ashe etc. I understand alot of different "rules" apply to high level, but could anyone explain?

Her range and abilities give her great lane control and make her hard to gank early game. It is really hard to stop a cait from farming up to her first 140 or so creep, which lets her get T3 items really quick. The traps can be used to zone enemies to your advantage, as well as providing vision. She combos really well with the likes of taric and alistar, because they offer a stun and heal to hold targets in place. This can also lead to cool aggressive moves, like coordinating with taric to stun a target and instantly place a trap underneath them, causing a 4 second stun. It's also just nice for holding them in place to get a clear peacemaker shot off. Her damage scales well into the late game with her passive, piltover pokes, and ulti, so she doesn't fall off. Her net is a great escape tool, providing both a slow and the knockback to re-position her. With positioning being the most important part of playing an AD carry, this is very helpful. She is just an overall solid range AD that is well rounded for damage, utility, escape, and poke.

Kogma has GREAT damage, good poke, and good utility with his slow and vision from ulti, but no escape. Vayne has great damage, utility, escape, but no poke. Ezreal has great poke, great escape, good damage, but no utility. Cait sort of takes what is good from all of these common picks and does them all, but toned down a little.

very nicely put
i wish riot would give me better ping
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
October 14 2011 09:18 GMT
#1132
With JBright on leave tomorrow, I'll edit the OP with picks, bans, and victors. I'll also set up the polls at the end of each game. Anyone want to halp meh with the match summaries? Not sure if I'll be around for the entire day, so I rather let someone who is write the overviews.

Not asking for details descriptions of the game. Just a paragraph on tempo of the game (who lead in kills/gold), team objectives, and outstanding team fights.

PM me if you're interested.

Thanks.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
October 14 2011 09:44 GMT
#1133
On October 14 2011 14:19 DarkRise wrote:
To be honest TSM need a better jungler someone like Jatt or SV. They play like "carry" from the jungle while oddone play like a support. His ganks are so so and his jungle path is predictable.SV even comment on oddone's jungling in his stream and point out all his habit and jungle paths. So funny because he is soooo right since i always watch TSM scrims and their games in different tourney. He was good back in the day when counter jungle was strong.
I think TSM's Chaox+Xpecial are the best bottom laner. Reginaid either play godly or get shut down early game. Rainman is a good top laner with a lot of champions on his armory but somewhat get loss in team fights sometimes.
They just started a team house so let's expect better games from them in the future


I want that SV commentary video.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
LoCicero
Profile Joined August 2010
1100 Posts
October 14 2011 11:22 GMT
#1134
Sad to see the Dig losses, they're all real cool guys and I would much rather see them win than any other team to be honest. Some of the players on CLG and TSM are just... -_-
SHr3DD3r
Profile Joined March 2009
Pakistan2137 Posts
October 14 2011 11:24 GMT
#1135
On October 14 2011 20:22 LoCicero wrote:
Sad to see the Dig losses, they're all real cool guys and I would much rather see them win than any other team to be honest. Some of the players on CLG and TSM are just... -_-

It would be great if you could conduct a form of an interview with them regarding this. Their thoughts/insights etc. Obv after your interview and if you get time.

<<<33333
Hit them hard! Hit them low! - Forever a Bisu Fan!~!
Abenson
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada4122 Posts
October 14 2011 11:47 GMT
#1136
On October 14 2011 20:22 LoCicero wrote:
Sad to see the Dig losses, they're all real cool guys and I would much rather see them win than any other team to be honest. Some of the players on CLG and TSM are just... -_-


D:
Loci when you gonna get a team?
It would be really nice to see you play in major tournaments :3
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 12:30:21
October 14 2011 12:28 GMT
#1137
On October 14 2011 16:19 ihasaKAROT wrote:
I agree with the above. TheOddOne needs to improve his jungleselection and Rainman needs to step up his game if he can. Hes a good player but hes just not good enough to play at this level I feel sometimes. Its the little things he does wrong like just be slightly ahead of his team with Sion in game1. He got caught several times with his pants (shield) down, stunned and focussed in a few seconds. Sion is a great champ when played correctly, rainman made me feel bad for the lumberjack at some point ://

I was surprised with Fnatic, what a great synergy they have

?

TOO is one of the more flexible junglers in terms of what he can play reasonably. He and Saint have shown themselves capable of playing pretty much anything (other than Amumu--seeing as both of them hate playing Amumu).

As I mentioned before, it's not just on TheOddOne to get farm as a jungler--he can't magically make farm appear out of nowhere--any non-jungle farm has to come out of minions that would otherwise go to a laner. If anything, the burden is partly on TheRainMan and Reginald to create situations where TheOddOne gets to farm a lane while they gank (they've done this some in scrims, but don't seem to be able to translate it into play at events). Dignitas in particular is great at coordinating these sorts of situations, which is why Jatt is able to get such respectable farm.
Moderator
br0fivE
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada349 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 13:09:10
October 14 2011 13:07 GMT
#1138
i quite enjoyed the CLG strategies in the game vs dignitas

baiting to cho (hsgg) then taking down towers
I thought they were going to lose at the start but they came back in a commanding lead, very well done!

EDIT: oh yea, voyboys renetkon early game was so good, made me want to pick rene up
Goshawk.
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United Kingdom5338 Posts
October 14 2011 13:10 GMT
#1139
Yeee fnatic owning it up again, good to see! ^^
daemir
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland8662 Posts
October 14 2011 14:36 GMT
#1140
Day 2 starting up!

Lapaka on stream with Phreak
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