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no... zerg is still the highest decision making.
..............................----------tech building
............................./
.............-------drone--------------defense building
............/ ............. \
.........../.................---------harvester
larva---/ ---------overlord
.........\
...........\---------army----7 choices
Every single larva.
What I'd like to see in this thread: Do you feel agree with the very one-sided distribution of these macro-decisions? If so, do you think they make an impact on the difficulty of the race? What are possible chances that could ease this or is the current situation just fine as it is?
I agree there is a very one-sided distribution of macro-decisions being that zerg is still the most complex.
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Thanks for fucking spoiling one of the matches from the HDH invitational. I didn't get to watch it yet...
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@fable sry, but i would not like this idea... it would turn zerg into terran/toss... where i build like 8 hydra dens and have queens injecting them like crazy, while pumping drones. not only would this be too strong (having the ability to make like 16 hydras while making 7 drones instead of hydras or drones...
It would neuter what makes zerg zerg.. the decision on what to use my larva for. In the first few minutes of the game, i have every larva planned out... and if i mess one up, one less drone, one less overlord, miss an egg of lings, it can literally end my game right there.
Zerg only has so much larva available to them, the earlier you get a queen out the more larva you get, but the worse off your economy is. The later you get a queen the more droneing you can do but the less over all larva you have and your neuter your ability to quickly react to the current situation.
Lets not even go into what happens if I get harassed and lose a drone (not only do i lose income, but possible a spine crawler or the ability to drop my extractor on time)...
Every larva has to be planed out, even late game "ok, do i have enough drones to expo again? Do I have more drones then he does?" if you dont have more drones then your opponent, then their chrono boost and mules will boost their econ to a point where you can't catch up.
Then late game, when we have a huge army fighting, I have to go back to spawn larva or I lose those larva for ever... not to mention when the battle is done, do I expo, do I need to build an army to defend, or do I make lings to harass.
and If I drone, does he have a small army built up which I just wasted my larva and cannot defend now?
If I make an army, is he expanding, and do I have enough of an army to attack? if not, then I fall further behind in economy.
If I make lings, what happens if his static defenses hold me off? thats a HUGE larva investment.
Zerg have TONNES of choices, and they all stem from what to do with larva... While T and P are constrined by how much minerals and gas they have, they have the ability to make workers and a military as the same time... zerg is constrained by gas, minerals, and larva... making every larva precious and a single mistake where you make the wrong thing and cancel is something that can cost you the game.
(and yes, one egg of lings or drones can make the difference in a game... if I make a drone instead of lings and he kills my queen, where those lings would of saved it puts me so so so so so so far behind its stupid...)
Just saying, Zerg is trivialized in this thread... well so is toss but I don't play them.
Also just @ the mule/scan dilema... to me its sort of the same as larva/tumor... its
mule
mule
mule
mule
mule
mule
k enough for a scan... lets see what he has... k
mule
mule
mule
etc... people only save scans if they know that they need detectors... does anyone save scans for v zerg... most likely not. Does anyone save scans if they know the opponent isn't getting dt's or banshees no, they don't... you get mules.
if you want to see what the enemy is doing you do what the rest of us do... send a unit, a worker or a cheap unit like a marine to die...
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Calgary26003 Posts
Do you feel agree with the very one-sided distribution of these macro-decisions? No.
If so, do you think they make an impact on the difficulty of the race? N/A
What are possible chances that could ease this or is the current situation just fine as it is? N/A
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But again.. terran can switch tech very easily, since the tech lab is shorter to build now (post patch 8)
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If anything I don't think the orbital command has enough good decision making, and I don't think there's enough reason to go planetary fortress (except on maps like desert oasis, with open naturals). There's pretty much never a reason to go planetary fortress because it's 100% defensive with no other benefits. Then we make the orbital. And hey, guess what?
Calldown supply is economically inferior to the mule. And scouting options are almost always cheaper than the opportunity cost of scan. 150 minerals for a floating rax, 50 mineral suicide scv, 50 mineral/50 gas reaper, free floating factory while teching to starport, all cheaper opportunities than scan. Mule is almost always the way to go. One of the few times scanning is worth it is when you need to see the high ground, or you need immediate knowledge of a far off expansion. Scanning is rare in comparison to the mule, and for good reason. Economically it's simply better to scout using other methods.
So I don't think terran has enough decision making. It's just mule mule mule mule mule mule. I'd like to see calldown mule to be changed so that you can call down a mule for economy or you can call down some units (call them down on top of a production facility only). In the short run it would help you out, in the long run you'd have a smaller army. That would be interesting. What isn't interesting is having one ability that's superior in every facet of the game 90% of the time.
To me, the protoss is the only race that have a functional macro mechanic. They have a choice to boost their economy or to boost their army. For zerg, their macro mechanic involves no choice - spawn larva if I want to boost my economy, spawn larva if I want to boost my army. For terran, their macro mechanic involves no choice - mule for my economy.
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On May 04 2010 00:46 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:44 atarianimo wrote:On May 03 2010 23:29 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 03 2010 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Yes
Orbital: What ability do I use?
Yes
Queen: What ability do I use?
No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time. I think the decision with Zerg is what you do with the extra larva the queen gives you. It doesnt matter that there is decision making in another part of the game. The fact of the matter is that there is not decision making in when/how to use spawn larva. Its just Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva
You are wrong if you think the Queen is only used for Spawn Larva. There are many times many good Zerg players forgo Spawn Larva for both creep tumors and transfusion. Of course, if they need the larvae, they will use Spawn Larva. But there are many other times where the energy would be better spent on a creep tumor or saved up for transfusions. I don't see how this is any different from the tension between MULE/scan.
@ OP: Deciding which buildings get add-ons and deciding how to use your macro mechanics is a TINY, TINY portion of decision making involved in SC2. And if you think you can so easily label Terran as having more decision making based on the evidence you've given, you're seriously kidding yourself.
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You can pretty much cross off transfusion from that zerg tree lol. Cases where you need that are quite situational.
I really don't think decision making is a problem. If you were on the zerg side of things, the big complaint here is the LACK of decisions (comparatively!), that is, it's bland as hell because it's so forcibly linear.
When I refer to decision making, I am completely ignoring the decision of egging. Strictly speaking about macro mechanics and tech pattern options.
On May 04 2010 02:41 alexanderzero wrote:
Thanks for fucking spoiling one of the matches from the HDH invitational. I didn't get to watch it yet...
same here -.-
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On May 04 2010 03:03 Saracen wrote:
@ OP: Deciding which buildings get add-ons and deciding how to use your macro mechanics is a TINY, TINY portion of decision making involved in SC2. And if you think you can so easily label Terran as having more decision making based on the evidence you've given, you're seriously kidding yourself.
I hope I didn't come across like that. I am well aware of the fact that I limited my scope A TON (analyzing the full decision making differences between the three races would be a task that you could work your whole life on). More importantly, I didn't claim that Terran has more of a need for decision making overall. I did claim that, in the scope of macro mechanics, I personally feel there is more need for decision making. Again, that has its up- and downsides.
Also, it would help if we would focus less on the, not very well thought out, diagrams I whipped up in Paint and, with that, the talk about the add-ons for Terran production buildings. That's not really a part of the macro mechanics and I now see that including them was a mistake. They are related to the topic at hand, but aren't the topic.
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lol, I wish the zerg suffered from having too many decisions to make (although I'm pretty happy about them in general). And I wouldn't worry about new players coming in and getting overwhelmed, the first game features the terrans, so everyone's gonna be comfortable with them when the game is out. Anyways, its like tossing your kid in the lake to learn how to swim; its funny and you know the kids gonna swim unless they wanna die.
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On May 04 2010 03:11 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:41 alexanderzero wrote:
Thanks for fucking spoiling one of the matches from the HDH invitational. I didn't get to watch it yet... same here -.-
I apologize for spoiling the game to you guys but threads like this will obviously talk about recent games or use them as references (as is enforced by forum policy). If people didn't do that, we couldn't back up any claims. Also, it's one game out of a best of 3 so it's not like you know any end results.
Maybe a moderator can change the title to include a spoiler warning for an HDH game, I can't seem to edit the title.
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On May 04 2010 01:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Zoltan,
I like the list of questions you created (the ones that you're constantly asking yourself, as a Terran player), but I would argue that any Protoss or Zerg player can formulate a similar set of questions that are constantly going through THEIR heads as well. Being conscientious of things like macro, micro, scouting, harrassment, and other strategies must *always* be going through a great players' head, regardless of their race.
Im not arguing that in the slightest- i just feel theres more involved with terran macro mechanics than the other races in their decision making.
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I don't understand how you could possible interpret decision making as a bad thing. That is assuming all the decisions you're making are meaningful, and for the most part they are.
Plus, you're diagrams are heavily rigged. Chronoboost what? Chronoboost Upgrade/Army/Eco.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
God, i feel like i'm at Starbucks surrounded by a bunch of hipsters with mac book pros writing screen plays while wearing scarves and the rims of glasses. You don't need to write entire essays to ask or reply to questions. It's like everyone is trying super hard to be recognized in the community, so they write a massive tirade just to be heard.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
And for the record, decision making is an integral point of ANY game. These thread titles are sending me full tilt. FFFFFF
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EPT
