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On May 04 2010 01:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 01:25 AppleTart wrote:On May 04 2010 01:22 Rabiator wrote:I have felt that Terrans have a "structural disadvantage" in their unit-building mechanics for quite some time. - Zerg only need Larvae, but from those they can build every unit. This may be a disadvantage when it comes to the decision "to Drone or not to Drone?", but it is a huge advantage when you need to switch the style of your army. Zerg simply need ONE Spire to switch from ground to air full force.
- Protoss are also able to switch their main army style from just the Gateway / Warp Gate, because it is a huge difference if you are fighting a Zealot-, Stalker- or Sentry-heavy army. If Protoss needs anti-air they can produce those from all of their Warp Gates in a matter of seconds. Granted, there are also the Robotics facility, but you only need (or maybe two) of these to get all the expensive units you want and Chrono boost helps speeding it up anyways. The Stargate is not as necessary as the Starport is for a Terran player, but you dont need many of those either.
- Terrans are screwed in their ability to switch their army style fast, because they need LOTS of buildings to produce units fast enough for a switch. So if you started with a bio-army it is not easy to suddenly start pumping lots of Vikings to defend against a heavy air army.
There is another structural disadvantage to the Terran army and that is its need to diversify. While a Marauder-heavy army may be successful for quite some time it gets annihilated by Immortals. You are practically forced to get Ghosts to survive and these are somewhat hard to use, because they are fragile, expensive AND require energy to use. Apart from the "general" need for anti-air and detection against cloaking I dont see any other race being forced to get a certain unit as much as the Terrans are. Especially if you try to use mech against Protoss it is a necessity to get Ghosts as well. Each race should be advantaged/disadvantaged in certain ways. That's why they are so different. It's not just different units and buildings, but different styles. Zerg are the most "structurally advantaged" and Terran are the most "structurally disadvantaged" That's how it meant to be. But there really is no blatant imbalance between races. That's because terran have advantages in other ways. Which advantages do Terrans have over the other races? Stronger units would be the way to make up for their lack of production flexibility, but thats not really the case. The siege tank is as solid as a piece of butter on a sunny day and even the Thor isnt that much better.
SC2 is not perfectly balanced, but in racial identity its fine the way it is right now. Zerg has production flexibility advantage and Terran does not. But terran can fly their structures and build anywhere they want to, do not have the larve factor to limit worker to unit production ratio, Terran can also wall in and do not have to sac a worker each time they make a structure. Zerg cannot proxy tech or proxy cheese or bunker rush in that respect. Also, their macro mechanic (the queen) can actually be killed. In order to kill the terran macro mechanic, you have to actually destroy the command center.
This list goes on for all races. The point is it would be boring if all races had equal flexibility and equal capabilities in all aspects. The point is races should be distinct with unique advantages and weaknesses
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On May 03 2010 23:18 Tump wrote:
I think Protoss should get Shield Battery on Nexus, that would give some more decision making for them ^^
good one
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youre talking about reactor and tech lab etc but you dont mention that for example zerg has to chose between banelings, speedlings, roaches or expand or w/e. heavily biased thread.
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What is the point of this post? Are you trying to claim that terran players have more decision making to do than zerg or toss players?
THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF DECISION MAKING!
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Nice write-up and I commend the OP for taking the time to write it. However, I have to disagree with the main conclusions from the post.
Firstly, decision-making is the bane of ALL three units, not just Terran. As it is right now, the only race that really does not get punished the most for decision making is Zerg, but their power always relied on their ability to be able to make giant tech switches with very little drawbacks.
The first thing I noticed about your post was the charts, which, in my opinion, are grossly biased and incorrect. What the OP failed to note was that Protoss teching doesn't simply end at "warp gate." Many Protoss will need to choose between templar, stargate, and robo tech. Although one can argue that robo tech is probably the safest and most reliable tech choice, the decision the Protoss has to make is enormous when choosing between the three. If robo tech is take, Protoss will be playing a pretty standard game with timing pushes and macro.
The decision really lies in choosing not to go robo. When stargate and templar tech is used, it's arguably riskier, but the benefits can be enormous, especially since many players are learning how to reasonably counter robo tech. There are so many factors to take into consideration such as while stargate tech provides scouting in the form of the phoenix, templar tech will delay obs.
Although chronoboost does help with the whole teching issue, one thing that OP ignores is the fact that the resource cost and actual build time of the buildings are unchanged. Protoss has the most expensive and longest build times (on average) for their tech buildings and researches. This absolutely must be taken into consideration and is one reason why you rarely ever see a Protoss explore all three or even just two (just getting obs doesn't count) of their tech tree. On the other hand, Terran can easily just switch add-ons to unlock more tech options.
Also, I'm pretty sure no one ever plans out a game plan into 104 supply regardless what race you're playing. For Terran, the decision between MULE and scan is pretty simple that point in the game I feel. Once you reach that late in the game your bases should be saturated and your income will be running equal to Zerg or Protoss. Therefore, scan should most likely be much more useful unless you just really need minerals for something. In mid-late game that decision between MULE and scan is really not that complicated or hard a decision. The only time it's actually very tough is in the early game when you're behind in terms of base saturation, but scouting is still vital.
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There have been some excellent posts on the last pages. Let's try not to put this offtopic by talking about general balance here, please!
youre talking about reactor and tech lab etc but you dont mention that for example zerg has to chose between banelings, speedlings, roaches or expand or w/e. heavily biased thread.
I have said before that I admit me including the reactor and tech lab are problematic. Also I play 100% Protoss (and random before that) so calling this biased (although I made sure to note that this is not about balance at all time and time again) is just pointless.
What is the point of this post? Are you trying to claim that terran players have more decision making to do than zerg or toss players?
THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF DECISION MAKING!
Wow, your usage of uppercase letters really makes for a decisive argument. Thumbs up! Maybe you want to present some evidence why the amount of decision making is equal in a thread that claims its not?
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AppleTart :
zerg cannot proxy
300 is steep but it is ze only production building, each playstyles' risk are implied in ze race
zerg is a map controller
zi protoss borders on extinction and should have reigned over the sc galaxy
and finally the terran is an opportunistic scavenger (as it is in real life)
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Zerg got the larvas to manage, to a lesser extent late game altough early game can make or break a game on how you power drone or make a stronger army with your larvas.
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On May 04 2010 01:54 baskerville wrote:
AppleTart :
zerg cannot proxy
300 is steep but it is ze only production building, each playstyles' risk are implied in ze race
zerg is a map controller
zi protoss borders on extinction and should have reigned over the sc galaxy
and finally the terran is an opportunistic scavenger (as it is in real life)
Basker I wasn't arguing in favor of each race just trying to give examples of what each race has advantages in doing.
I pretty much said in my post how all the races are different I don't get why you are trying to argue against me.
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On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two things
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything.
Beat me to it! But I definitly agree with 2 aswell.
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Sorry don't want to be rude but this thread is really absolutely pointless. Every race is different as it was in brood war and if one has (not saying it does) more decision making - than it is only the good thing. Threads are becoming more and more worthless, please people think before you start any thread.
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My impression is that, terran suffers a lot more from BO losses than other races
Its so hard to change your unit composition, unless you went for the right one from the start you are in big trouble most games.
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give the nexus a shield that either: makes the unit invulnerable for (x=3) seconds or absorbs 200-300 dmg over (x=5) seconds. 50 energy
change the queen's single target heal to a less powerful but chain heal. ~3-4 chains?
perhaps give the queen's attack a slight half-second slowing effect (so that two kite/tractor-beam micro-down banshees that got too close for instance).
the supply depot call down is really only good for when your depot macro fails. this is helpful in game but i don't think from a design perspective its very good or tension-inducing since a player with good macro should never have to use it as there is no advantage offered by it when used proactively.
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EDIT: gah... quoted myself
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Protoss decisions to make every game:
How many sentries? 100 gas each means delayed tech. Fast tech or not? Lets sack a probe.
Robo/Stargate/Templar? Especially with Nony's phoenix build, there is more variability here. It depends on how many marines they have currently (many marines now is bad for phoenix), but if they have tech labs and just built initial marines, I feel stargate is better. Reactor is usually robo.
Chronoboost first collosus or thermal lance?
How many immortals before collosus? Too many and you'll get tech switched and lose, and if you do not build enough you can lose instantly.
Blink before charge or vice versa? Depends on unit comp. Sometimes it could be tough to tell. Also, factor in the map and your APM/ability to harass.
Are DTs in this situation worth it? Well, he has reactors on starports and not a bunch of turrets, yes. No addons on starports... is he close to ravens? Take a look at his units, expo timing, will he have ravens soon? Is the 30 seconds without ravens crucial for my expansion?
Tarran is very mobile once they get medivacs. Where should I keep my army so I do not get dropped but also can apply pressure? This really makes a crucial decision for taking your third.
Upgrade timings. In all of this... how am I supposed to get the gas for this? Cut what where?
How many obs should I be making? 100 gas is a lot, and if he's sniping them then it can get expensive. However, since we do not have maphack *I mean, scan!*, we need obs around. How am I going to do this correctly in this situation?
Chronoboost the first zealot for aggression? But this basically means I lose probes. Is it a good position for me to do this?
Chronoboost the first stalker? Is there a reaper coming?
How many chronoboosts should I save for my first immortal/phoenix?
When should I be cutting probes/stop chronoing the nexus? (Hint, play one game chronoboosting your nexus. It's not SC1 anymore, you'll have 100 probes on 2 expansions and just laugh at your replay.)
Nat timing. You'll get curb stomped if you do this wrong.
Are mutas coming? I need to check to see if I need cannons ready!!!
That's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I don't want to sound negative but it really does seem like you did not give Protoss any justice. It really sounds like you haven't played them or thought about what you did while playing them. Every race has their decisions, they are just different. The Tarran ones are just more obvious because you see an energy bar tell you that it exists.
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Have the Queen inject the larvae into a particular production building, and that production building can produce larvae that can only build that unit. Thus you could have 3 queens in your base injecting in the spire and spawning pool, etc. Would force more unit diversity as well, although I'd def need a ton of tweaking.
Imagine making multiple spawning pools or hydra dens instead to mass them^
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I almost forgot the most interesting decision of all for Protoss.
When using a phoenix build, how many workers to kill during a harass? This is the only harass where killing every worker you can IS HARMFUL. Try a game where you use up all your phoenix energy and get counter attacked. Your phoenixes are useless if you lift too many. However, the more you lift the more successful the harass is. You need enough to slow his gas, make him put up turrets, and scare the f*** out of him so you can expand, but also leave as much energy as possible so when the battle comes you have "lockdown"/gravitation lift.
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Very nice read but I believe the decision making is a bit different.
Terran do not have the most instant decision making what I mean by that is its all very the same for Terran when a battle happens or when they are macroing up. There are no use A abilty or B abilty what there is though is game breaking choices. What you do with each building and what building you make and when you attack has a much greater affect for Terran then any other race.
Bad post but I have class in three minutes...
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A lot of people seem to be commenting about how every race has to make decisions, but many of the decisions being discussed are very general (i.e. what to upgrade first, what units to make first, etc).
I do agree with the OP that Terran have the most decisions to make as far as buildings go. I think that the ability to swap addons around is neat and certainly alleviates some of the feelings of being locked in, however I'm not too fond of being locked into either an orbital command or planetary fortress. I think there should be a way to swtich back to a basic command center (salvage perhaps?).
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Heres the hardest desicion making of all 3 races: Zerg.
When to drone up?
Unlike protoss and terran, you cannot constantly be producing 1 worker by 1 worker, as your always on edge between choosing to produce units, or Drones with your larvae.
You can think about it as Zerg having a 3'rd resource, especially in mid-early game. It's much easier for T to hotkey the CC to 1, and que up a couple scv's here and there to keep constant production going without harm, and still get units, same with probes
But for zerg, its the choice between getting 3 drones for the next 45 seconds of larvae, or getting 3 combat units (which may be needed to help defend) Which is what i've encountered a lot being ranked 1 plat in my division vs a protoss. I'll be sitting there making 100% units once they start their constant 4-gate or immortal push, and all they have to do is keep pumping probes from both his main and expo, BUT for zerg players, if you try to sneak in a drone every 3'rd or so larvae, it may cost you in the end, especially when your getting constant pressure applied. One larve (per hatch) comes ever 15 seconds, in which the builders build time as P and T is 17 seconds per. Now: With the queens one larve every extra 10 seconds it helps make this decision a bit easier, making one larve every approx 6 every 40 seconds, 7 every 45 seconds (with PERFECT macro) which really is hard once pressure is applied.
I'm not saying anything is "over-powered", Yet stating that Zerg has alot more desicion making than is credited in this article, and for terran its actually generally easier.. i mean it's pretty much power mule until you plan to tech up, then save up for a scan (or against Z earlier, just liftoff a barracks. a free 100$ scan, which will cover more area mid-early game) I mean, very few people actually use supply drops, as they arent as economical for current-times, unless you really need to conserve your minerals in your base, or once under immidiate attack, to lay down some supplies. and PF's arent that hard to decide. Is opponent getting alot of z-ling baneling hydra? Yes? PF. Heavy roaches/muta? yes? OC
Yes terran still has some decistion making in the end, but the thought of droning-up for many T and P players doesnt occur as such as hassle as it really is.
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EPT
