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Umm, if you individually give add-ons rax, port, fact. Then you have to give chrono EVERY building that can upgrade and can build units.
In addition, the techlab, standalone, reactor is not very accurate.Its more like a decision of if you need to make marauders/higher tech or need to make more marines. Based on what race your opponent has, what units he makes etc, you decide if you need more tech labs or not. It's not rooted within the add-on itself, but rather what units/upgrades you want. I mean obviously you use techlab if you want to make higher tier units. That's saying the same thing as when zerg gets to lair they obviously get a hydra den if they want hydras as opposed to a spire for mutas.
Each race has to decide what units to make and must get the sufficient tech to build them. It just so happens that terran needs a tech building for each production building as opposed to how zerg just needs one tech building to produce out of all hatcheries. I wouldn't call it more "choices", maybe just more building in the literal sense. Zerg compensates for this by having to make a choice about building units/overlords for supply/drones.
I think the main flaw of the OP although I admit in itself is well written and reasoned which is why I'm even bothering to write this, is that is ignores the actual roots of decisions. If you want to timing push you get +1 upgrade. You don't split that into deciding do I get a forge? Do I get +1? The decision lies at the root cause of the initial decision to go +1 because of a timing attack. Your decision may change of course but that's on the level of gameplay and broader sense of the game than just simple techlab or reactor.
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Didn't read the replies but it would appear you're trivializing zerg and protoss decision chains and in either case, picking the ones that are most convenient. Protoss tech "choices" end up at gateway -> warpgate, while choosing the right tech and unit combos after that are as dynamic as for terran or any other race for that matter. They just don't need to upgrade their gateways for it, that's true. And as far as terran goes, you can switch the reactors in and out between buildings too so it's not like you're bound to one strategy after building a tech lab to your starport.
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Furthermore the whole idea is for the races to be different. For zerg, the macro dynamics are quite different than those of terran or protoss and knowing when to pop units and when to pop drones is really important or you'll get utterly desolated by some timing pushes, while for terran and protoss you can mostly pump scvs/probes almost constanly until the saturation point. Obviously this also trivializes the terran/toss macro since some strategies require stopping builder production, but you get the point.
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@Archerofaiur: Ah, that makes perfect sense then and I agree.
@DarkPlasmaBall: I would generally agree with what you say should be done with Terran OC energy however this is exactly what I meant. You need to let some energy go to MULEs, save some for emergency scans, maybe scan once right now though etc. If you run low on mineral patches and aren't at x/200 supply yet, calldown is a great option as its free minerals and MULEs would just make you go bankrupt in 3 minutes. That, to me, seems like a ton more work than it is to boost some obvious buildings with Protoss (as I said before, boost as many of your production buildings, most likely warp gates, as possible, if you research anything, give that a boost as well).
I do agree that it's problematic to include the reactor/techlab/standalone distinction in this and I was honestly somewhat unsure. You can switch buildings, yes, but I haven't seen it yet in high-level games (after the 10 minute mark of course, in the beginning it can easily be a pre-established build order step or something) as it's somewhat micro intensive and generally annoying in a real game situation in mid- to late-game.
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This is a huge post filled with misinformation. Building reactors/tech labs at buildings isn't even difficult decision making, whereas chronoboosting takes far more decision making as you can chronoboost EVERY SINGLE research/unit protoss has.
You also seem to forget that zerg has something called larva. Zerg can't just constantly pump workers and constantly queue up a roach at every hatch. Zerg needs to decide when to power and when to build army. Considering zerg static d's take up a drone, the zerg also needs to know exactly when to put them down to minimize the economic damage.
Not every decision in the game is straight up layed out for you like 'choosing an add on', or 'choosing a spell to use'. Most of the time decision making is in the subtle differences like when to produce where and when to build what. These decisions far outweigh the simple "scan or mule" dilema.
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On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
This is a huge post filled with misinformation. Building reactors/tech labs at buildings isn't even difficult decision making, whereas chronoboosting takes far more decision making as you can chronoboost EVERY SINGLE research/unit protoss has.
You also seem to forget that zerg has something called larva. Zerg can't just constantly pump workers and constantly queue up a roach at every hatch. Zerg needs to decide when to power and when to build army. Considering zerg static d's take up a drone, the zerg also needs to know exactly when to put them down to minimize the economic damage.
Not every decision in the game is straight up layed out for you like 'choosing an add on', or 'choosing a spell to use'. Most of the time decision making is in the subtle differences like when to produce where and when to build what. These decisions far outweigh the simple "scan or mule" dilema.
^completely agree with this (as stated in my post at the top of this page)
Terran has the most buildings, but that does not mean they make the most decisions. Its too much of an oversimplification by far. I could argue that building a bunker is an easier decision than making a spine crawler because you can just salvage the bunker later and it doesn't cost a worker's life permanently.
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On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
With this agree i do.
Most of all the Terran race i like.
And that is because the most options (huge variety of units and unit combos) this race have.(IMO)
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dkh,
"@DarkPlasmaBall: I would generally agree with what you say should be done with Terran OC energy however this is exactly what I meant. You need to let some energy go to MULEs, save some for emergency scans, maybe scan once right now though etc. If you run low on mineral patches and aren't at x/200 supply yet, calldown is a great option as its free minerals and MULEs would just make you go bankrupt in 3 minutes. That, to me, seems like a ton more work than it is to boost some obvious buildings with Protoss (as I said before, boost as many of your production buildings, most likely warp gates, as possible, if you research anything, give that a boost as well)."
Why is it exactly a ton more work for Terran? We clearly understand the cases where we need to use MULEs, we need to do scans, and we need to get that extra free supply depot. When the situation presents itself, it should become quite easy when and how to use the energy. Are you talking about when we may need to do two at once (that would be when decision-making becomes difficult)?
Well, that happens with Protoss (and Zerg) as well. I can't Chrono Boost everything at the same time! Sometimes I have to choose: Should I boost +1 Weapons or my Probes or my Blink upgrade or my Immortal that's building, etc. All of those may seem like reasonable boosts at any one time, but I need to make the decision with limited energy. I really think you're reducing the decision-making process of Protoss to "Boost Anything" instead of the fact that Protoss users can't boost everything at the same time. We're bound by energy too :-)
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I believe that the intent behind incorporating Macro Mechanics was to reward players with greater APM. Blizzard has already described why they will not make the Queen's Spawn Larvae ability autocast though there is very little decision-making involved, especially because Creep Tumors can self-propogate and Transfusion is not as useful for a race that relies on large numbers of units rather than a small number of powerful units. Given any other game besides Starcraft 2, there would be no reason not to make this ability auto-castable like Zealot Charge, but this ability was designed to meet peoples' complaints that Macro had been too simplified with MBS and Automine.
But in practice, Macro Mechanics seem to be more useful as things that allow a player to recover from a period of bad macro by casting the abilities multiple times all at once. I think to completely fulfill the intent of the Macro Mechanics, they should be limited in how many times they can be cast at the same time. In other words, the Queen should only have 75 energy, the Nexus should only have 50 energy, and the Orbital Command should only have 75 energy. Also, Spawn Larvae could use some adjusting, but to be honest I don't think it can be satisfactorily tweaked. Maybe making the act of building a Queen more of a significant decision.
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On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Building reactors/tech labs at buildings isn't even difficult decision making, whereas chronoboosting takes far more decision making as you can chronoboost EVERY SINGLE research/unit protoss has.
True, on the other hand chrono boosting or not makes a difference of a few seconds which - as I said before - doesn't matter as much as building a techlab or a reactor in the later stages of the game. Not to mention what a few scans or MULEs can do and not do for you (ie. win or lose you the game).
On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
You also seem to forget that zerg has something called larva. Zerg can't just constantly pump workers and constantly queue up a roach at every hatch. Zerg needs to decide when to power and when to build army. Considering zerg static d's take up a drone, the zerg also needs to know exactly when to put them down to minimize the economic damage.
If you would bother to read the thread you would find information on this issue. I have left that aspect of Zerg decision making out as my write-up is mostly concerned with the new macro mechanics and their impact.
On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Not every decision in the game is straight up layed out for you like 'choosing an add on', or 'choosing a spell to use'. Most of the time decision making is in the subtle differences like when to produce where and when to build what. These decisions far outweigh the simple "scan or mule" dilema.
I agree 100% but this topic is not about the subtle decisions, it's just about the big ones. The original post makes that very clear. Also I wouldn't call "scan or mule" a simple dilemma by all means but I guess that's subjective.
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nice post
i for one think the real differences in the 3 races is the real sell point of sc1 and probably sc2
in xtrashort
zerg with a central hub and cheap expand
the terran with its harass repertoire and flying buildings
and protoss with usually the coolest units and micro galore
the terran is the most destructive with quite a good mobility, and you pay it with involvement in zesomany apm tribute payed to it
(in short a successful emp takes some attention)
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A lot of this could be solved by giving Terran a mechanic to allow quick swap of tech buildings, rather then just flying 2 or more buildings from place to place. Perhaps when one building is lifted up and is set to land on another building, the other one swaps up automatically and switches.
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I would like to say if this thread is about the "big decisions," then you completely missed the target because choosing to make an add-on isn't the big decision, its choosing to make marauders vs marines that's the big decision. If you want one or the other you get tech lab or no tech lab. As for other races, do you want immortals or templar? Depending on what you want you may go robo first or twilight council first. Please read my post at the top of the page.
Big decisions lay at a gameplay level as opposed to trivial things like making a tech lab. If anything the choice zerg makes to make drones or lings early game right when the pool finishes is bigger than the choice to mule or scan right when your first orbital finishes.
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On May 04 2010 00:33 dkh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Building reactors/tech labs at buildings isn't even difficult decision making, whereas chronoboosting takes far more decision making as you can chronoboost EVERY SINGLE research/unit protoss has.
True, on the other hand chrono boosting or not makes a difference of a few seconds which - as I said before - doesn't matter as much as building a techlab or a reactor in the later stages of the game. Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
You also seem to forget that zerg has something called larva. Zerg can't just constantly pump workers and constantly queue up a roach at every hatch. Zerg needs to decide when to power and when to build army. Considering zerg static d's take up a drone, the zerg also needs to know exactly when to put them down to minimize the economic damage.
If you would bother to read the thread you would find information on this issue. I have left that aspect of Zerg decision making out as my write-up is mostly concerned with the new macro mechanics and their impact. Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Not every decision in the game is straight up layed out for you like 'choosing an add on', or 'choosing a spell to use'. Most of the time decision making is in the subtle differences like when to produce where and when to build what. These decisions far outweigh the simple "scan or mule" dilema. I agree 100% but this topic is not about the subtle decisions, it's just about the big ones. The original post makes that very clear. Also I wouldn't call "scan or mule" a simple dilemma by all means but I guess that's subjective.
Lol if you think chronoboosting a research for a timing attack is not as significant as building a tech lab/reactor then I think you should actually play the game.
Leaving out the aspects which require decision making in other races while saying terran takes the most decision making seems a bit stupid, no? That's like saying "This is the best thing ever, if you don't count the ones that are better than it".
In the end I'm guessing either you are new at the game or you aren't very good at it, esp if you think the big decisions aren't the ones where you decide when to build what.
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Man, this is really going to quickly to properly answer/discuss everything... :D
On May 04 2010 00:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Why is it exactly a ton more work for Terran? We clearly understand the cases where we need to use MULEs, we need to do scans, and we need to get that extra free supply depot. When the situation presents itself, it should become quite easy when and how to use the energy. Are you talking about when we may need to do two at once (that would be when decision-making becomes difficult)?
Well, that happens with Protoss (and Zerg) as well. I can't Chrono Boost everything at the same time! Sometimes I have to choose: Should I boost +1 Weapons or my Probes or my Blink upgrade or my Immortal that's building, etc. All of those may seem like reasonable boosts at any one time, but I need to make the decision with limited energy. I really think you're reducing the decision-making process of Protoss to "Boost Anything" instead of the fact that Protoss users can't boost everything at the same time. We're bound by energy too :-)
That's absolutely right of course, it's just my personal feeling that it seems much easier with Protoss to decide. Let's take your example: if I'm afraid of, say, a Marauder or a Roach push (because of intel), I would boost the Immortal as that is of course my priority. If I'm pretty sure my enemy is teching up and not pushing, I would just speed up that +1 upgrade so my push gets out quicker (I assume I'm preparing one). If I have left over energy, I give that to my probes or my gates, if they need it although I feel, unless we're talking very top-level play, that isn't really so incredibly important (SC2 doesn't need as many workers as SC1 and warp gates are really very quick to cool down already (talking about the later game stages again of course).
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On May 04 2010 00:40 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Lol if you think chronoboosting a research for a timing attack is not as significant as building a tech lab/reactor then I think you should actually play the game.
Leaving out the aspects which require decision making in other races while saying terran takes the most decision making seems a bit stupid, no? That's like saying "This is the best thing ever, if you don't count the ones that are better than it".
In the end I'm guessing either you are new at the game or you aren't very good at it, esp if you think the big decisions aren't the ones where you decide when to build what.
You have been coming into this thread with offensive replies beginning with your first post. I have chosen to ignore that attitude in your first post and answered in a way that I feel was purely on topic. I have nothing to say to the post above as it does not include any relevant argument. If you want to troll, go somewhere else, if you want to discuss and argue well-mannered, I'm here and reading.
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On May 03 2010 23:29 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Yes Yes No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time.
I think the decision with Zerg is what you do with the extra larva the queen gives you. Do you power drones or make combat units? It's basically the same as deciding what to Chrono Boost.
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On May 04 2010 00:44 atarianimo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:29 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 03 2010 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Yes
Orbital: What ability do I use?
Yes
Queen: What ability do I use?
No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time. I think the decision with Zerg is what you do with the extra larva the queen gives you.
It doesnt matter that there is decision making in another part of the game. The fact of the matter is that there is not decision making in when/how to use spawn larva. Its just
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
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"That's absolutely right of course, it's just my personal feeling that it seems much easier with Protoss to decide. Let's take your example: [et al]"
I agree, dkh. Based on the situation, you know what to do. Just like with the Terran. If you're going against cloaked units, you'll want energy for scan. If you need money quickly, then you go MULEs. If you get supply blocked, then you get the instant supply. Easy decisions :-)
Terran: What do I use OC energy on?
Protoss: What do I use Nexus energy on?
There really isn't that much of a difference. You look at the scenario you're in, and act accordingly.
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Terrans have 3 options but each of their option does one thing and one thing only... Mule mines minerals and that's all it can do, scan scans and reveals..., and call down makes supply and thats pretty much it.... But chrono and spawn larve may seem simpler because its just one option that costs energy, but deciding what and when to do with each afterward and during is something terran lacks.
Imagine if they made the OC only have one skill, to make a mule. But that mule itself could either build a depot for free or scan somewhere. Then the OC would only have one skill as well but it wouldn't be as simple as just 3 skills vs 1 skill
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EPT
