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I have read the rules for creating a thread here and I hope everything is fine and cool for this little write-up I have in mind. I don't present the required replays as what I'll be talking about is really the tech-tree - I both hope and assume that it's understood that replays for this thread would be pointless. One thing before I start: English is not my first language so you might come across a few odd phrasings or whatever, in that case either ignore or ask me what I meant if it's not obvious to you. Oh, and before I forget: I'm a Gold League random player, have recently decided to main Protoss.
The Bane of Terran: Decision-Making
Let's start off by looking at Starcraft: Brood War. There was a lot of discussion about which race was the easiest to play. Some people claimed it was Terran as their buildings and units are self-explanatory to a certain degree (where do I build a tank, barracks or factory? And where does a marine come from?), and then others agreed but pointed out that Protoss was in fact easier to actually play because they - on a (very) low-level of play - don't require as much micro, they have fewer units (which are more expensive though), their match-ups are more forgiving and so on (without turning this into a point of discussion, consider that even Bisu agrees - go to "SC2 Reactions - SKT1", can't get a direct link). This can easily end up (and frequently has) in trash-talk, "IMBA!" cries and unproductive discussion.
Enough about ancient history, let's switch our focus to Starcraft 2. Again, Terran has the advantage of easy-to-figure-out building and unit names, granted, but: Terran players have an incredible amount of super important decisions to make - many, many more than Protoss or Zerg. Again, I'm not talking about balance here, just that, as a Terran player, you better be extremely sure you know exactly what you're doing, your decision making must be spot-on or you will ultimately fail.
Let's try and make that a little more specific. First of all I want to point out that all Starcraft players make decisions and lots of them. What builder order/strategy/tactic do I employ? What unit mixture do I get? Where, when and with what number of units do I apply pressure? The list goes on and on and is absolutely not race specific. However, there are some "overlying" decisions. We could refer to these as macro-decisions. These are race-specific so let's look at them in that order.
Protoss have their Chrono Boost ability. You have to decide what to boost when and it's often an important step in your game plan. However, I personally feel that (a) it's often pretty obvious what to speed up and (b) its significance drops very quickly in the later mid- to late-game as a few seconds more or less on something is more and more unlikely to cost you the game through a serious disadvantage. An example for (a): you put down your pylon on 9, you then have enough energy to boost once, you wait until the pylon is up to actually use the boost and then go ahead - if you go for quick warp gate tech, you boost that. If see your enemy go for early aggression you boost out a zealot or a stalker or whatever. Regarding (b), there are late-game situations where you still need it, but again, it's self explanatory, say you tech-switch to Colossus in late-game, you want your Colossi to pop out of your two Robo Facilities as fast as possible so you boost them. You also want the Thermal Lance range upgrade so you give that a boost as soon as possible. You could look at the decision to get Warp Gate technology as a second macro decision for Protoss although as it has literally no drawback to my knowledge, I wouldn't necessarily agree.
Zerg have the Queen. I feel that it's even less of a decision what to do with it than it is for Protoss players. Larva injection can really never hurt as it's not a temporary effect (as Chrono Boost is). If you don't do it in time, you don't really lose any effect either (until the 200 energy mark of course). The other Queen abilities can be thrown in at will but really there is barely any real decision making necessary. If you have 25 energy left and no hatchery that is currently free for injection, just throw down a creep tumor. You can make the decision to go for a creep tumor first or just after the first injection if you want to (see Idra's recent games) but that's something you establish way ahead of time.
![[image loading]](http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/1176398365000/00212/titanic_212987g.jpg) Time for some hardcore decision making...
For Terran, the first decision is whether to get an Orbital Command or a Planetary Fortress. With the former, you then decide between using energy on MULEs, scans or supply calldown. For every production building (that is, barracks, factory and starport) you need to decide whether you get no add-on, a reactor or a techlab. A wrong choice somewhere in this giant decision tree can easily cost you the game (see Day9's recent loss to his brother from the HDH Invitational #1 Ro16). Granted, you do make a lot of these decisions before hand (as I mentioned before with the other two races) but there are SO many more to make that every player, sooner or later, will be in a situation where you need to decide quickly what to get. Especially with the three choices in the Orbital Command (do I scan or do I MULE, do I scan or do I MULE, do I... you know the drill) as, apart from the first minute or two, I hardy believe Terran players will ever fully map out their game plan to a degree where they know exactly at 104 supply to scan and then MULE the three next times, the scan again, MULE four times etc. Actually I don't even think that's humanly possible to time and keep track while playing.
![[image loading]](http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a7/dkh2/sc2writeup1.png) These macro decisions exclude the decision for what units and actual tech buildings to get, what upgrades etc.
In the introduction I referred to Starcraft: Brood War and mentioned the problem with Terran being the most attractive race to newcomers but then biting them in the behind as soon as you get into actual competitive games and with that regard, I fear Starcraft 2 hasn't improved one bit. Newcomers that choose Terran must feel majorly irritated by the ridiculous amount of decisions they have to make. It's like when you're in a restaurant, you want to order some food because you're hungry but the waiter won't stop nagging you with questions of what exactly you want, how you want it done, what kind of this and what of that you want and what you want with that.
It's important to point out that this alone isn't enough to proof that Terran is harder to get into than the other races as there are, of course, many more aspects in the game that I haven't focused on in this short write-up.
What I'd like to see in this thread: Do you feel agree with the very one-sided distribution of these macro-decisions? If so, do you think they make an impact on the difficulty of the race? What are possible chances that could ease this or is the current situation just fine as it is?
What I don't want to see in this thread: Talk about racial balance. The races should be different to play and we're talking about just one of these factors that make them different. Please stay within that scope as much as possible as I have tried to do in the original post.
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Two things
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything.
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I think Protoss should get Shield Battery on Nexus, that would give some more decision making for them ^^
BTW, great post
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i like the amount of decision making involved with terran! I feel like i have so many different possibilities and subtle changes in play that i want to experiment with. As for difficulty in choice making, i dont think its that much harder than the other races. Zerg for instance has a lot of choices involving when and what units to make.
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On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two things
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything.
There are upsides to decision making, of course. Especially considering Zerg is lacking variety. I admit I focused on the downside of it.
Why does a Queen need decision making though? Could you try to back up one-liners like that? It helps the quality of discussion. To my knowledge, spamming larva injection and then spawning a single creep tumor is no decision making. Do you mean when deciding whether to use a queen to defend? I admit I haven't played Zerg as much as I have Protoss and Terran in Starcraft 2.
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I feel like your diagram for Protoss misrepresents the decisionmaking that goes into what to boost - perhaps you should have nexus pointing to every single protoss building =p
I agree though. T decisionmaking locks you in more and is harder. P is more adaptable than T, and Z is more adaptable than P. The less adaptable your unit composition the more versatile that composition needs to be. Swapping addons should help with this a little?
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this is a cool observation but dont forget that zerg makes all their units at same place
so its likedo i use larva for army or drones???
its kinda similar and could also be taken into account.
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I enjoyed reading your post, dkh, but I respectfully disagree. And here's why:
Each race has one special building/unit they always have to be mindful of (disregarding constant unit/worker production): Nexus (for chrono boost), Queen, or Orbital Command (and isn't OC used least frequently, energy-wise?).
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Queen: What ability do I use?
Orbital: What ability do I use?
(And if you pick a PF upgrade over an OC, then that's the end of the decision making process on that command center.)
As far as the Terran building add-ons are concerned, this was always a key part of the Terran tech tree that goes into what build you're going to be using. There are FAR more independent Zerg and Protoss buildings in the tech tree than there are Terran ones... and each Z/P building is a "decision" in the same way it is for a Terran to build an add-on. Templar Archives, or a simple Terran add-on? Hydralisk Den, or a simple Terran add-on? Plus, the fact that you can lift/trade Terran add-ons now make it arguably EASIER to make decisions, just in case you want to make a tech switch later on. And faster? And cheaper?
I think that Terran has other problems, but I think the decision-making quantity is about even.
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I agree with others that decision making isn't necessarily bad BUT I completely agree that Terran have a lot of choices to make.
This is most obvious during TvT imo where you have so many build choices it's absurd. I don't think i've ever lost to the exact same TvT build ever. Every time you go into one you can get a different combination of things and they can each work just as well.
If this is bad or not tho is another question. I think it will make for amazing play between pros.
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On May 03 2010 23:19 dkh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two things
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything. There are upsides to decision making, of course. Especially considering Zerg is lacking variety. I admit I focused on the downside of it. Why does a Queen need decision making though? Could you try to back up one-liners like that?
Certainly,
The intent of the macro mechanics is to make the player feel like they are managing their base. But what good is that if players dont feel like they are having fun managing there base.
A prerequisite of the player enjoying managing the base is that the player feels they are completing meaningful actions. In order for the player to feel they are completing meaningful actions the player needs to feel like they are making decisions that effect the game.
Playing Terran you feel like you are a commander choosing whether to cast MULE or scan and choosing where to use each. Playing Protoss you feel like a executer bending the powers of time and space to macro chronoboost and warp-in. Playing Zerg you DO NOT feel like a Queen managing a brood. You feel like an automation bound to repeat as task with no meaningful purpose other than to make the player return to base and click a button. And that is not fun.
Here is how superior MULEs are in terms of decision making to Spawn Larva. Similar features can be demonstrated with Chronoboost.
Energy Tension
Great tension with Scanner Sweep although admitedly Calldown Supply is probably lacking
Temporal Decision Making (When do I cast this?)
Very well done. There are many times when players will hold off on Callingdown MULEs incase they need Scanner Sweep in the near future.
Spacial Decision Making (Where do I cast this?)
Incredible due to the cast anywhere capabilities of the Orbital Command. This decision making is enhanced by mineral heterogeneity, for example some mineral patches will return 270 minerals during a MULEs life and some will return 240 depending on how far they are from the CC. Mineral heterogeneity also arises from which mineral patches have been MULE mined more than others. IT pays to spread your MULEs across different mineral patches to avoid depleting one mineral patch and therefore increases SCV saturation (which decreases intake rates longterm). Further example of heterogeneity comes from gold vs normal minerals or from island expansions vs regular expansions. Players have to wiegh risk vs benefit in all of these scenarios. Furthermore MULEs can be used to repair. Comboed with cast anywhere this makes the MULE a Scanner Sweep for repairing. Innovative uses include saving burning CCs and even field repairs of an attacking force. All of which requires good spacial casting decisions made by the player.
On May 03 2010 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Yes
Orbital: What ability do I use?
Yes
Queen: What ability do I use?
No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time.
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On May 03 2010 23:24 italiangymnast wrote:
this is a cool observation but dont forget that zerg makes all their units at same place
so its likedo i use larva for army or drones???
its kinda similar and could also be taken into account.
This is a really good point that became forgotten I think. Larva management is the iconic decision-making aspect of playing Zerg, and it's not mastered easily.
For Protoss, I think deciding what units need to be made is pretty important. Terran has many versatile units: the classic marine that is cheap and attacks ground and air, reapers with cliff jumping, vikings can change form, etc. And mauraders can do well to compliment any ground force. Terran focuses more on the macro mechanics than unit choice compared to other races I think. I don't mean to say unit choice isn't important to Terran, I just mean that the macro mechanics become more important.
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Great responses so far. They keep coming in so quickly it's pretty hard for me to follow and answer.
Zerg has the big decision whether to get drones or attacking units of course. That is the main mechanic behind the race. I admit I didn't think about it in my write-up - it's probably because I was focusing on the new elements from a Brood War perspective and Starcraft 1 Zerg players are used to that specific decision.
@Archerofaiur: Your points are all valid and I agree but I don't quite see how they're relevant to your point. In fact, you contradicted yourself there (if I didn't misread your posts). You were arguing that the Queen needs the most decision making and then in the second post you end by saying "You want Spawn Larva 99% of the time"? That's exactly what I meant by saying it does not require decision making at all. Must be some kind of communication problem somewhere. :D
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On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything.
This made me laugh. Nice post and all, but I think it is more about choices than decision, forgetting for a second that you can be boned if you mess up, more options is usually a good thing.
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United States5162 Posts
I don't think the decision making between each race is significantly different. The macro abilities can be used in a variety of ways for each race. Even chrono boost has the decision on which building to be used - do I increase my upgrade speed or get that colossus out earlier, get my economy up earlier or rush? Those are very important decisions, and every race has to make those. Queen with creep or larva and Terran with mule or scan.
I also disagree that tech add-ons significantly increase the decision making for Terran. If they want maruaders than there no decision but to get a tech lab, same with other units as well. The only extra decision making is if they want to make low-tech units quicker with a reactor.
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I agree that zerg doesnt have as much decision-making in their obvious macro unit (the queen) as the other races. But as italiangymnast wrote, the decision making in the early game of what to make of larvae greatly affects the game.
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Archerofaiur,
"No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Idra has a passion for creep tumors... and he's arguably the best foreign Zerg currently playing the beta. In fact, many people use creep tumors to increase Zerg speed and map control! I agree that Spawn Larvae is incredibly important, but I've seen other Queen abilities used to great success as well. Creep tumors are used far more often than the OC's extra supply ability too.
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Interesting. Maybe it's all subjective. Not only that some people like heavy decision making (for its strengths) and others dislike it (favoring a more straight up play maybe) but also that - apparently - everybody has their own impression of how much decision making a race requires in the first place. I conclude that from the increasing number of posts that argue that there's already an equal distribution of decision making between the races while I can tell you that, when I play Terran, I feel like I'm strapped to my chair while with Protoss it all seems to flow right. Let me clear that up with an example:
After a micro-intensive fight, let's say I let some energy build up in my Orbital Commands. I would be thinking, what do I do? Scan to look for a tech switch? MULE? Or calldown supply (which I believe to be much better than most people think). Probably a combination. With MULEs I also need to send them to good patches (which need to be localized first)...
While, in the same situation with Protoss, I would just boost my warp gates, robo facilities or starports to pump out more units or tech buildings if I was researching. BAM, not much decision necessary there for me.
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People are mis interpreting this
"Queen needs more decision making if any"
It should read "The queen needs to be given more decision making if anything"
On May 03 2010 23:38 PaleBlueDot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything. This made me laugh. Nice post and all, but I think it is more about choices than decision,
Whats the difference between choices and decisions?
On May 03 2010 23:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Idra has a passion for creep tumors... and he's arguably the best foreign Zerg currently playing the beta.
What percentage of the time would you say Idra chooses Creep Tumor OVER Spawn Larva?Meaning Idra has only enough energy to cast one and he chooses Creep Tumor.
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dkh,
"After a micro-intensive fight, let's say I let some energy build up in my Orbital Commands. I would be thinking, what do I do? Scan to look for a tech switch, MULE? Or calldown supply (which I believe to be much better than most people think). Probably a combination. With MULEs I also need to send them to good patches. So I'm off to finding them etc.
While, in the same situation with Protoss, I would just boost my warp gates, robo facilities or starports to pump out more units or tech buildings if I was researching. BAM, not much decision necessary there for me."
So your problem is that Terran has TOO MUCH versatility? o.O After all, the argument that Terran has too many decisions to make (which, as previously explained, I disagree with) must imply that you have too many options.
Let's break down the OC abilities:
Scan- Not much different than SC1's comsat sweep. You even get this ability faster than a Comsat Station! The alternatives for detection are Missile Turrets (same timing as in SC1), Ravens (about same timing as Science Vessels in SC1), and Ghost's EMPs (which may or may not be a total waste for detecting cloaked units...I've seen them used effectively though). The biggest problem is the lack of spider mines, which is a problem. So it's wise to have energy stored up for a scan at all times in case of emergencies.
MULE- The economy-boost, which is really really useful, and keeps you ahead of the game (or, at least, equal) as far as resources are concerned.
Extra Supply- If you keep an SCV building a Supply Depot at all times, you really shouldn't ever need this o.O I haven't seen any pro-games that utilize this as effectively or as often as the previous two abilities.
So it seems that you should, in general, always keep enough energy for an emergency scan (or two), and have the rest go towards MULEs. More specifically, if you're moving out, have enough energy for two scans (or a Raven); if you're staying in your base, then have a few turrets and enough energy for a scan. The rest can go to MULEs. And it gets much easier if you have multiple OCs. (Of course, you may want a PF if you're taking a farther expansion, in which you may have to cut the occasional MULE to save the occasional scan energy.)
I think that's pretty straightforward, to be honest. And, of course, you can modify things in game. If the opponent is clearly going cloaked units, save more energy for scans. It's common sense. Cut a MULE or two, because the opponent is wasting a LOT of resources on a dark templar rush or a banshee rush :-)
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On May 03 2010 23:37 dkh wrote:
@Archerofaiur: Your points are all valid and I agree but I don't quite see how they're relevant to your point. In fact, you contradicted yourself there (if I didn't misread your posts). You were arguing that the Queen needs the most decision making and then in the second post you end by saying "You want Spawn Larva 99% of the time"? That's exactly what I meant by saying it does not require decision making at all. Must be some kind of communication problem somewhere. :D
I think that when he first posted saying Queen needs more decision making, he meant the the queen should be changed so that her abilities require to think a bit more than simply spawning inject larva.
And great post, while I do think that the addon part wouldn't require as much decision making that you are saying (it's more related to the units choices and you said you weren't including this), because obviously if you want marauders you aren't going to put a reactor. But between reactor and standalone there is quite often a choice.
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Umm, if you individually give add-ons rax, port, fact. Then you have to give chrono EVERY building that can upgrade and can build units.
In addition, the techlab, standalone, reactor is not very accurate.Its more like a decision of if you need to make marauders/higher tech or need to make more marines. Based on what race your opponent has, what units he makes etc, you decide if you need more tech labs or not. It's not rooted within the add-on itself, but rather what units/upgrades you want. I mean obviously you use techlab if you want to make higher tier units. That's saying the same thing as when zerg gets to lair they obviously get a hydra den if they want hydras as opposed to a spire for mutas.
Each race has to decide what units to make and must get the sufficient tech to build them. It just so happens that terran needs a tech building for each production building as opposed to how zerg just needs one tech building to produce out of all hatcheries. I wouldn't call it more "choices", maybe just more building in the literal sense. Zerg compensates for this by having to make a choice about building units/overlords for supply/drones.
I think the main flaw of the OP although I admit in itself is well written and reasoned which is why I'm even bothering to write this, is that is ignores the actual roots of decisions. If you want to timing push you get +1 upgrade. You don't split that into deciding do I get a forge? Do I get +1? The decision lies at the root cause of the initial decision to go +1 because of a timing attack. Your decision may change of course but that's on the level of gameplay and broader sense of the game than just simple techlab or reactor.
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Didn't read the replies but it would appear you're trivializing zerg and protoss decision chains and in either case, picking the ones that are most convenient. Protoss tech "choices" end up at gateway -> warpgate, while choosing the right tech and unit combos after that are as dynamic as for terran or any other race for that matter. They just don't need to upgrade their gateways for it, that's true. And as far as terran goes, you can switch the reactors in and out between buildings too so it's not like you're bound to one strategy after building a tech lab to your starport.
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Furthermore the whole idea is for the races to be different. For zerg, the macro dynamics are quite different than those of terran or protoss and knowing when to pop units and when to pop drones is really important or you'll get utterly desolated by some timing pushes, while for terran and protoss you can mostly pump scvs/probes almost constanly until the saturation point. Obviously this also trivializes the terran/toss macro since some strategies require stopping builder production, but you get the point.
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@Archerofaiur: Ah, that makes perfect sense then and I agree.
@DarkPlasmaBall: I would generally agree with what you say should be done with Terran OC energy however this is exactly what I meant. You need to let some energy go to MULEs, save some for emergency scans, maybe scan once right now though etc. If you run low on mineral patches and aren't at x/200 supply yet, calldown is a great option as its free minerals and MULEs would just make you go bankrupt in 3 minutes. That, to me, seems like a ton more work than it is to boost some obvious buildings with Protoss (as I said before, boost as many of your production buildings, most likely warp gates, as possible, if you research anything, give that a boost as well).
I do agree that it's problematic to include the reactor/techlab/standalone distinction in this and I was honestly somewhat unsure. You can switch buildings, yes, but I haven't seen it yet in high-level games (after the 10 minute mark of course, in the beginning it can easily be a pre-established build order step or something) as it's somewhat micro intensive and generally annoying in a real game situation in mid- to late-game.
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This is a huge post filled with misinformation. Building reactors/tech labs at buildings isn't even difficult decision making, whereas chronoboosting takes far more decision making as you can chronoboost EVERY SINGLE research/unit protoss has.
You also seem to forget that zerg has something called larva. Zerg can't just constantly pump workers and constantly queue up a roach at every hatch. Zerg needs to decide when to power and when to build army. Considering zerg static d's take up a drone, the zerg also needs to know exactly when to put them down to minimize the economic damage.
Not every decision in the game is straight up layed out for you like 'choosing an add on', or 'choosing a spell to use'. Most of the time decision making is in the subtle differences like when to produce where and when to build what. These decisions far outweigh the simple "scan or mule" dilema.
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On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
This is a huge post filled with misinformation. Building reactors/tech labs at buildings isn't even difficult decision making, whereas chronoboosting takes far more decision making as you can chronoboost EVERY SINGLE research/unit protoss has.
You also seem to forget that zerg has something called larva. Zerg can't just constantly pump workers and constantly queue up a roach at every hatch. Zerg needs to decide when to power and when to build army. Considering zerg static d's take up a drone, the zerg also needs to know exactly when to put them down to minimize the economic damage.
Not every decision in the game is straight up layed out for you like 'choosing an add on', or 'choosing a spell to use'. Most of the time decision making is in the subtle differences like when to produce where and when to build what. These decisions far outweigh the simple "scan or mule" dilema.
^completely agree with this (as stated in my post at the top of this page)
Terran has the most buildings, but that does not mean they make the most decisions. Its too much of an oversimplification by far. I could argue that building a bunker is an easier decision than making a spine crawler because you can just salvage the bunker later and it doesn't cost a worker's life permanently.
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On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
With this agree i do.
Most of all the Terran race i like.
And that is because the most options (huge variety of units and unit combos) this race have.(IMO)
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dkh,
"@DarkPlasmaBall: I would generally agree with what you say should be done with Terran OC energy however this is exactly what I meant. You need to let some energy go to MULEs, save some for emergency scans, maybe scan once right now though etc. If you run low on mineral patches and aren't at x/200 supply yet, calldown is a great option as its free minerals and MULEs would just make you go bankrupt in 3 minutes. That, to me, seems like a ton more work than it is to boost some obvious buildings with Protoss (as I said before, boost as many of your production buildings, most likely warp gates, as possible, if you research anything, give that a boost as well)."
Why is it exactly a ton more work for Terran? We clearly understand the cases where we need to use MULEs, we need to do scans, and we need to get that extra free supply depot. When the situation presents itself, it should become quite easy when and how to use the energy. Are you talking about when we may need to do two at once (that would be when decision-making becomes difficult)?
Well, that happens with Protoss (and Zerg) as well. I can't Chrono Boost everything at the same time! Sometimes I have to choose: Should I boost +1 Weapons or my Probes or my Blink upgrade or my Immortal that's building, etc. All of those may seem like reasonable boosts at any one time, but I need to make the decision with limited energy. I really think you're reducing the decision-making process of Protoss to "Boost Anything" instead of the fact that Protoss users can't boost everything at the same time. We're bound by energy too :-)
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I believe that the intent behind incorporating Macro Mechanics was to reward players with greater APM. Blizzard has already described why they will not make the Queen's Spawn Larvae ability autocast though there is very little decision-making involved, especially because Creep Tumors can self-propogate and Transfusion is not as useful for a race that relies on large numbers of units rather than a small number of powerful units. Given any other game besides Starcraft 2, there would be no reason not to make this ability auto-castable like Zealot Charge, but this ability was designed to meet peoples' complaints that Macro had been too simplified with MBS and Automine.
But in practice, Macro Mechanics seem to be more useful as things that allow a player to recover from a period of bad macro by casting the abilities multiple times all at once. I think to completely fulfill the intent of the Macro Mechanics, they should be limited in how many times they can be cast at the same time. In other words, the Queen should only have 75 energy, the Nexus should only have 50 energy, and the Orbital Command should only have 75 energy. Also, Spawn Larvae could use some adjusting, but to be honest I don't think it can be satisfactorily tweaked. Maybe making the act of building a Queen more of a significant decision.
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On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Building reactors/tech labs at buildings isn't even difficult decision making, whereas chronoboosting takes far more decision making as you can chronoboost EVERY SINGLE research/unit protoss has.
True, on the other hand chrono boosting or not makes a difference of a few seconds which - as I said before - doesn't matter as much as building a techlab or a reactor in the later stages of the game. Not to mention what a few scans or MULEs can do and not do for you (ie. win or lose you the game).
On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
You also seem to forget that zerg has something called larva. Zerg can't just constantly pump workers and constantly queue up a roach at every hatch. Zerg needs to decide when to power and when to build army. Considering zerg static d's take up a drone, the zerg also needs to know exactly when to put them down to minimize the economic damage.
If you would bother to read the thread you would find information on this issue. I have left that aspect of Zerg decision making out as my write-up is mostly concerned with the new macro mechanics and their impact.
On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Not every decision in the game is straight up layed out for you like 'choosing an add on', or 'choosing a spell to use'. Most of the time decision making is in the subtle differences like when to produce where and when to build what. These decisions far outweigh the simple "scan or mule" dilema.
I agree 100% but this topic is not about the subtle decisions, it's just about the big ones. The original post makes that very clear. Also I wouldn't call "scan or mule" a simple dilemma by all means but I guess that's subjective.
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nice post
i for one think the real differences in the 3 races is the real sell point of sc1 and probably sc2
in xtrashort
zerg with a central hub and cheap expand
the terran with its harass repertoire and flying buildings
and protoss with usually the coolest units and micro galore
the terran is the most destructive with quite a good mobility, and you pay it with involvement in zesomany apm tribute payed to it
(in short a successful emp takes some attention)
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A lot of this could be solved by giving Terran a mechanic to allow quick swap of tech buildings, rather then just flying 2 or more buildings from place to place. Perhaps when one building is lifted up and is set to land on another building, the other one swaps up automatically and switches.
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I would like to say if this thread is about the "big decisions," then you completely missed the target because choosing to make an add-on isn't the big decision, its choosing to make marauders vs marines that's the big decision. If you want one or the other you get tech lab or no tech lab. As for other races, do you want immortals or templar? Depending on what you want you may go robo first or twilight council first. Please read my post at the top of the page.
Big decisions lay at a gameplay level as opposed to trivial things like making a tech lab. If anything the choice zerg makes to make drones or lings early game right when the pool finishes is bigger than the choice to mule or scan right when your first orbital finishes.
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On May 04 2010 00:33 dkh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Building reactors/tech labs at buildings isn't even difficult decision making, whereas chronoboosting takes far more decision making as you can chronoboost EVERY SINGLE research/unit protoss has.
True, on the other hand chrono boosting or not makes a difference of a few seconds which - as I said before - doesn't matter as much as building a techlab or a reactor in the later stages of the game. Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
You also seem to forget that zerg has something called larva. Zerg can't just constantly pump workers and constantly queue up a roach at every hatch. Zerg needs to decide when to power and when to build army. Considering zerg static d's take up a drone, the zerg also needs to know exactly when to put them down to minimize the economic damage.
If you would bother to read the thread you would find information on this issue. I have left that aspect of Zerg decision making out as my write-up is mostly concerned with the new macro mechanics and their impact. Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:19 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Not every decision in the game is straight up layed out for you like 'choosing an add on', or 'choosing a spell to use'. Most of the time decision making is in the subtle differences like when to produce where and when to build what. These decisions far outweigh the simple "scan or mule" dilema. I agree 100% but this topic is not about the subtle decisions, it's just about the big ones. The original post makes that very clear. Also I wouldn't call "scan or mule" a simple dilemma by all means but I guess that's subjective.
Lol if you think chronoboosting a research for a timing attack is not as significant as building a tech lab/reactor then I think you should actually play the game.
Leaving out the aspects which require decision making in other races while saying terran takes the most decision making seems a bit stupid, no? That's like saying "This is the best thing ever, if you don't count the ones that are better than it".
In the end I'm guessing either you are new at the game or you aren't very good at it, esp if you think the big decisions aren't the ones where you decide when to build what.
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Man, this is really going to quickly to properly answer/discuss everything... :D
On May 04 2010 00:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Why is it exactly a ton more work for Terran? We clearly understand the cases where we need to use MULEs, we need to do scans, and we need to get that extra free supply depot. When the situation presents itself, it should become quite easy when and how to use the energy. Are you talking about when we may need to do two at once (that would be when decision-making becomes difficult)?
Well, that happens with Protoss (and Zerg) as well. I can't Chrono Boost everything at the same time! Sometimes I have to choose: Should I boost +1 Weapons or my Probes or my Blink upgrade or my Immortal that's building, etc. All of those may seem like reasonable boosts at any one time, but I need to make the decision with limited energy. I really think you're reducing the decision-making process of Protoss to "Boost Anything" instead of the fact that Protoss users can't boost everything at the same time. We're bound by energy too :-)
That's absolutely right of course, it's just my personal feeling that it seems much easier with Protoss to decide. Let's take your example: if I'm afraid of, say, a Marauder or a Roach push (because of intel), I would boost the Immortal as that is of course my priority. If I'm pretty sure my enemy is teching up and not pushing, I would just speed up that +1 upgrade so my push gets out quicker (I assume I'm preparing one). If I have left over energy, I give that to my probes or my gates, if they need it although I feel, unless we're talking very top-level play, that isn't really so incredibly important (SC2 doesn't need as many workers as SC1 and warp gates are really very quick to cool down already (talking about the later game stages again of course).
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On May 04 2010 00:40 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Lol if you think chronoboosting a research for a timing attack is not as significant as building a tech lab/reactor then I think you should actually play the game.
Leaving out the aspects which require decision making in other races while saying terran takes the most decision making seems a bit stupid, no? That's like saying "This is the best thing ever, if you don't count the ones that are better than it".
In the end I'm guessing either you are new at the game or you aren't very good at it, esp if you think the big decisions aren't the ones where you decide when to build what.
You have been coming into this thread with offensive replies beginning with your first post. I have chosen to ignore that attitude in your first post and answered in a way that I feel was purely on topic. I have nothing to say to the post above as it does not include any relevant argument. If you want to troll, go somewhere else, if you want to discuss and argue well-mannered, I'm here and reading.
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On May 03 2010 23:29 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Yes Yes No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time.
I think the decision with Zerg is what you do with the extra larva the queen gives you. Do you power drones or make combat units? It's basically the same as deciding what to Chrono Boost.
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On May 04 2010 00:44 atarianimo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:29 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 03 2010 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Yes
Orbital: What ability do I use?
Yes
Queen: What ability do I use?
No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time. I think the decision with Zerg is what you do with the extra larva the queen gives you.
It doesnt matter that there is decision making in another part of the game. The fact of the matter is that there is not decision making in when/how to use spawn larva. Its just
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
Spawn Larva
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"That's absolutely right of course, it's just my personal feeling that it seems much easier with Protoss to decide. Let's take your example: [et al]"
I agree, dkh. Based on the situation, you know what to do. Just like with the Terran. If you're going against cloaked units, you'll want energy for scan. If you need money quickly, then you go MULEs. If you get supply blocked, then you get the instant supply. Easy decisions :-)
Terran: What do I use OC energy on?
Protoss: What do I use Nexus energy on?
There really isn't that much of a difference. You look at the scenario you're in, and act accordingly.
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Terrans have 3 options but each of their option does one thing and one thing only... Mule mines minerals and that's all it can do, scan scans and reveals..., and call down makes supply and thats pretty much it.... But chrono and spawn larve may seem simpler because its just one option that costs energy, but deciding what and when to do with each afterward and during is something terran lacks.
Imagine if they made the OC only have one skill, to make a mule. But that mule itself could either build a depot for free or scan somewhere. Then the OC would only have one skill as well but it wouldn't be as simple as just 3 skills vs 1 skill
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I really agree with this and I love the decision making Terran has to make. My biggest problem with Terran is that late game we have no way to quickly replenish our armies like Protoss and Zerg. Protoss has warpgaes and Chrono boost while Zerg has infinite larva and can stop up as many as they need, while Terran only has reactors which can only make marines, vikings and hellions or mass production buildings which does not hold up to P/Z and the units take so much longer to make.
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On May 04 2010 00:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I agree, dkh. Based on the situation, you know what to do. Just like with the Terran. If you're going against cloaked units, you'll want energy for scan. If you need money quickly, then you go MULEs. If you get supply blocked, then you get the instant supply. Easy decisions :-)
True, I mean it's pretty obvious but from a theory point of view you are of course correct. Somehow I just feel like in the actual game (this is very subjective) that with Terran it's harder - it punishes you to no end if you forget to save energy for a scan as cloaked DTs or Banshees can quickly kill you and seal the game for example. With Protoss I feel like (once again, in the mid-to late game) it's just not a big a deal if you get the +3 weapon upgrade at 15:03 or 15:21 (assuming you're not doing a push oriented towards that upgrade) - it probably won't cost you the game.
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I didnt know having to make decisions was bad thing
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you cannot associate reactor/tech lab as a macro decision making, since you build tech lab to get to different types of units, your strategy at dictates which addon you are going to build.
Yes queen by default is not a lot of macro decision making but zerg as a race has the highest amount of decision making as a whole. EVERY unit is spawn from lava, so the decision of whether you should drone or build your army directly affects each other. You cancel your unit production you lose the larva.
All the other 2 races can just keep pumping army nonstop.
Terran actually have it the best... mule if you dont have enough minerals, scan if you need, and instant depot if you get supply blocked. Zerg? extra larva useless because not enough minerals, no scan, need time to build an overlord if supply capped. Maybe I haven't seen the best zerg out there, Artosis and idra are the ones I have seen, even they cannot use all the larva constantly.
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On May 04 2010 00:55 JohannesH wrote:
I didnt know having to make decisions was bad thing
I didn't know Terran in sc2 was the hardest race to play.
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On May 03 2010 23:30 IndecisivePenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:24 italiangymnast wrote:
this is a cool observation but dont forget that zerg makes all their units at same place
so its likedo i use larva for army or drones???
its kinda similar and could also be taken into account. This is a really good point that became forgotten I think. Larva management is the iconic decision-making aspect of playing Zerg, and it's not mastered easily. For Protoss, I think deciding what units need to be made is pretty important. Terran has many versatile units: the classic marine that is cheap and attacks ground and air, reapers with cliff jumping, vikings can change form, etc. And mauraders can do well to compliment any ground force. Terran focuses more on the macro mechanics than unit choice compared to other races I think. I don't mean to say unit choice isn't important to Terran, I just mean that the macro mechanics become more important.
I think that while macro mechanics are important for terran- really where terran requires the MOST decision making (however, probably no more than the other 2 races) is in the timing which they do everything. I think in the scope of this descussion- terran definatly has the most choices available to them at any given moment. I could make a really strong argument that terran has more to decide at any moment than any other race. As a T player I am constantly asking myself the following 5questions :
1:Do i need more harvesters / will i need a mule keep up with my production?
2:Do i need more factories/rax/ports to keep up with my opponents production?
3:Can i support all my facilities on one base or do i need to expand now?
4:Is my force bigger than my opponents?
5:Is my opponents base vulnerable to a harass attempt?
6:Can i make a successful push now or should i keep turtling?
Most of those questions require the answer to at least one of the other questions in order to be answered- and thats where the macro mechanics come in. To answer question 1- I only need to know my own base; however to determine my own base (to know how many facilities i need) i need to know the answer to question 2: which requries me to scout. If i cant scout using a scv / hellion / viking / marine, im going to need to scan. If i find out i need more facilites, i might need a mule to support them, whichi cannot now drop because i used my energy on a scan. You can follow that same logic knot all the way through all 6 of those questions; and each time you need to make a concious desicion about what the next move is- and your macro mechanics will have a place in all of those decisions.
Does a protoss need to do the same thing with his chrono boost?
Definatly Maybe. I dont play enough protoss to be able to comment accuratly here so im gonna shutup
Does a Zerg need to do the same thing with choosing units and his queen?
With his queen: No! Spawn larva! if im fighting, maybe transfusion a roach to keep it alive. Maybe start my creep tumor... If i dont spawn larva EVERY TIME ITS AVAILABLE- im failing to macro correctly. No decision required.
Build the right type of unit to continue to control the map: Yes, decisions are required here, but for zerg i feel like its just either mass drones or mass (insert highest tech unit available) while expanding en-mass.
In my personal opinion- Zerg needs more macro mechanics because given the amout of larva they have available to them larva managment isnt as difficult as it once was- and their main decision tree boils down to:
Do i mass drones or mass units?
Do i expand again?
Is my opponents base open to muta harass / nydus canal / ovie drop?
Can i push and overwhelm my opponent yet, or should i continue to maintain map control?
Thats 4 main questions instead of 6 (for terran)- and all are answered in the same manner only without the use of their macro mechanics *unless you consider overlord scouting a mechanic.* This to me means there needs to be more energy tension in the queen in order for it to be a better macro mechanic.
Just my 2 cents.
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On May 04 2010 00:46 AppleTart wrote:
Terrans have 3 options but each of their option does one thing and one thing only... Mule mines minerals and that's all it can do, scan scans and reveals..., and call down makes supply and thats pretty much it.... But chrono and spawn larve may seem simpler because its just one option that costs energy, but deciding what and when to do with each afterward and during is something terran lacks.
Imagine if they made the OC only have one skill, to make a mule. But that mule itself could either build a depot for free or scan somewhere. Then the OC would only have one skill as well but it wouldn't be as simple as just 3 skills vs 1 skill
Thats true for Chronoboost but not for Spawn Larva. The decision making of the what to make with the eventual larva is completly removed from how and when you use Spawn Larva.
Its like saying Proton Charge has decision making because you could decide what to turn the eventual minerals into.
It didnt.
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dkh,
"True, I mean it's pretty obvious, but from a theory point of view, you are of course correct. Somehow I just, again, feel like, in the actual game (again, this is very subjective) that with Terran it's harder, it punishes you to no end if you forget to save energy for a scan as cloaked DTs or Banshees can quickly kill you and seal the deal. With Protoss I feel like (once again, in the mid-to late game) it's just not a big a deal. If you get the +3 weapon upgrade at 15:03 or 15:21 does not be SUCH a big deal (assuming you're not doing a push oriented towards that upgrade). It probably won't cost you the game."
I see your point, but that's for the really late game (and even then, sometimes you really need to Chrono Boost that new observer if you're getting attacked by a group of cloaked units!). The multiple Chrono Boosts help Protoss over time, especially in the early-to-mid game. Plus, you (Terran) only have yourself to blame if you forget to save energy for a scan, right? You can't blame the Protoss for having (what you call) a less effective ability :-P (A Raven would also help big time against a push with cloaked Banshees or Dark Templar.)
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On May 04 2010 00:58 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:46 AppleTart wrote:
Terrans have 3 options but each of their option does one thing and one thing only... Mule mines minerals and that's all it can do, scan scans and reveals..., and call down makes supply and thats pretty much it.... But chrono and spawn larve may seem simpler because its just one option that costs energy, but deciding what and when to do with each afterward and during is something terran lacks.
Imagine if they made the OC only have one skill, to make a mule. But that mule itself could either build a depot for free or scan somewhere. Then the OC would only have one skill as well but it wouldn't be as simple as just 3 skills vs 1 skill Thats true for Chronoboost but not for Spawn Larva. The decision making of the what to make with the eventual larva is completly removed from how and when you use Spawn Larva. Its like saying Proton Charge has decision making because you could decide what to turn the eventual minerals into. It didnt.
This post only proves my previous posts about how we can go so deeply or so broadly in terms of choices and decisions. All in all, as far as big decisions go, the OP misses it.
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Dkh I'm going to go off topic and say that your English is superb. And you spelled "hardly" wrong at end of your post: "(do I scan or do I MULE, do I scan or do I MULE, do I... you know the drill) as, apart from the first minute or two, I hardy believe Terran players", just something I noticed.
As for the your question goes, isn't that decision making universal for every race? You made the little tree diagram showing that Terrans have to decide between reactor/tech lab indicating what they can build/do, but that is the equivalent of a zerg player choosing between rushing to hive to get Hydras or going roach (1st Idra/orb game in HDH#1 Invitational). Also, your reference about Day9 making the wrong decision can happen to all races like a zerg player placing down the wrong production building.
With that sad, I do agree that Terrans have a "thinner" margin of error for macro; precisely as you have mentioned in your post about scanning/muling. As a Terran player I do feel that one decision or the other dictates our future couple of minutes much more than it does than for a Protoss/zerg player. 5 seconds late injecting a larvae, or 7 seconds late chronoboosting a probe production doesn't seem to have the same consequences as 4 seconds late muling/scanning plus deciding which one you will do.
As for your question about how to ease this or if the current situation is fine, I think a good concept would be to increase the "macro decision making" much more significant for the other two races. Instead of the polar concept of making Terrans decision making easier.
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Zoltan,
I like the list of questions you created (the ones that you're constantly asking yourself, as a Terran player), but I would argue that any Protoss or Zerg player can formulate a similar set of questions that are constantly going through THEIR heads as well. Being conscientious of things like macro, micro, scouting, harrassment, and other strategies must *always* be going through a great players' head, regardless of their race.
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I just briefly read through the posts, but i just wanted to throw my two cents in. As a Terran player myself in SC 2, i understand what the OP is talking about, even if i haven't even tried the other two races. I think a good way to look at it, is benefit vs no benefit. When it comes to the mule and the supply drop, there is no question at all that there' a benefit, you'll either get more income or extra supply. However, the tricky thing is what to do with scans. As a heavy 2v2 player, i find more and more that our games rely heavily upon my scans in order to look at their tech, check for bases and possibly prepare for cloaked units. This, however, is NOT the same as chrono boost or the queen's abilities. This is because in the case of the queen or chronoboost, EVERYTIME you cast something, you gain a benefit. No question. Your choice as to what you boost or do with the queen may be absolutely horrid and nearly pointless, but in the case of scan, even a well placed, intentional and perfectly reasonable scan can reveal absolutely nothing. In this case, you lose the resource gain from the MULE or the benefit of not having to build another supply. I've run into plenty of situations where i'm forced to scout by means of my scanner, and in doing so, cripple my economy. On the other hand, my teammate pretty much can just chronoboost any of her buildings without any consequence. In the end, the 25 energy goes to use, whereas my scan could do nothing because i missed my opponents tech buildings or my opponent actually expanded else where (And i have had to drop 3-4 scans at one time due to need for information). Not to mention, scan is double the cost of spawn larva or chronoboost, meaning that if by some god awful occurrence, you manage to mess up using the spell, the amount lost is considerably less than with a bad scan. This is at the small detail i find to be my biggest problem.
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On May 04 2010 01:13 [Agony]x90 wrote:
I just briefly read through the posts, but i just wanted to throw my two cents in. As a Terran player myself in SC 2, i understand what the OP is talking about, even if i haven't even tried the other two races. I think a good way to look at it, is benefit vs no benefit. When it comes to the mule and the supply drop, there is no question at all that there' a benefit, you'll either get more income or extra supply. However, the tricky thing is what to do with scans. As a heavy 2v2 player, i find more and more that our games rely heavily upon my scans in order to look at their tech, check for bases and possibly prepare for cloaked units. This, however, is NOT the same as chrono boost or the queen's abilities. This is because in the case of the queen or chronoboost, EVERYTIME you cast something, you gain a benefit. No question. Your choice as to what you boost or do with the queen may be absolutely horrid and nearly pointless, but in the case of scan, even a well placed, intentional and perfectly reasonable scan can reveal absolutely nothing. In this case, you lose the resource gain from the MULE or the benefit of not having to build another supply. I've run into plenty of situations where i'm forced to scout by means of my scanner, and in doing so, cripple my economy. On the other hand, my teammate pretty much can just chronoboost any of her buildings without any consequence. In the end, the 25 energy goes to use, whereas my scan could do nothing because i missed my opponents tech buildings or my opponent actually expanded else where (And i have had to drop 3-4 scans at one time due to need for information). Not to mention, scan is double the cost of spawn larva or chronoboost, meaning that if by some god awful occurrence, you manage to mess up using the spell, the amount lost is considerably less than with a bad scan. This is at the small detail i find to be my biggest problem.
Not to be mean but don't speak for other races if you haven't even played them. Other races have their own aspects of the game that require attention. If you played the other two races you would probably be raging about other things which is fine in itself, but if you haven't seriously played the other races then it's really hard to take you seriously
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I don't want to hijack the thread from the discussion of the Terran, but as it has been brought up in practically every post I feel I should offer my thoughts on how to fix the Zerg Queen macro mechanics, as I posted on the Blizzard forums:
Many agree that Inject Larva is not an interesting mechanic since it requires no real decision on the players part on where/when/how to use it, you simply go back to your Queen every 40 seconds or so where she is sitting dutifully beside a hatchery and drop the extra larvae. There aren't any other abilities to compete with it really, as Creep Tumor only needs to be dropped about once and then you can endlessly replicate it.
In an attempt to add tension, decision, and versatility to the Queen, I offer the following solution:
Remove Inject Larvae, replace with Spawn Zerg Strain. This ability allows the Queen to place an egg anywhere on the creep (conveniently using the same animation as plant Creep Tumor) containing one of the following: A drone for 25 energy, a pair of zerglings for 25 energy, an overlord for 50 energy. The units cost no resources other than the energy cost for the ability but still take up control (except of course in the Overlords case). They have the same build time as if the unit were being hatched from a standard larva. Additional zerg strains can be researched for the Queen at the appropriate tech buildings (for example, a 150/150 upgrade at the Hydralisk Den allowing the Queen to lay Hydralisk eggs for 50(?) energy).
This has several repercussions - the zerg player now has options available to them when it comes to using the Queen all throughout the game, scaling through early game opening strategies all the way to late game changing decisions.
For example, when that first Queen spawns after your Pool finishes, are you going for an all-in zergling rush that could use that extra couple of lings? Will you spawn an extra drone for that econ boost? Later on vikings are sniping your overlords and you're currently out of larvae, use your queen to spawn a replacement before that vital push?
How about using an overlord to drop some creep just behind your main force and plopping a couple of Queens there both to help in combat and spawn you some front line reinforcements in the heat of battle? Now the Queens have the option of making a difference on the actual field instead of just sitting in your base, and suddenly new tactical split-second decisions open up - drop a few extra roach eggs or cast transfusion on that proxy spine crawler/infestor/broodlord/ultralisk?
It also leads to new tech choices with the research at each building allowing you to add that particular zerg strain to the Queens repertoire, saving you minerals and gas in the long run while you invest the time and resources now for that option.
Liking it so far? Okay, here's one more ability for Queeny.
Spawn Scourge - Spawns two light, flying suicidal zerg units that deal 30(?) splash damage to enemy flying units. Scourge last 30 seconds. Costs 25 energy, 6 second cooldown.
Many have complained of the lack of Zerg T1 anti-air with the relocation of the hydralisk into Tier 2. This gives Queens a slight edge in being the sole AA defender of your base against an early game void ray rush or what have you by bringing back an old zerg favorite, and also doubles as a potential scout ability mirroring the Orbital Commands scan by giving you a couple of cheap fast flyers that you can throw away at your enemies base similar to a hallucinated pheonix!
Now, the numbers and things of course all need to be balanced as I'm no mathematics professor, but I am convinced the mechanics have ALOT of potential, and are pretty much an all around win-win-win improvement over the current system, both in gameplay depth and interesting applicability.
Comments and critique welcome.
Have at it.
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I have felt that Terrans have a "structural disadvantage" in their unit-building mechanics for quite some time.
- Zerg only need Larvae, but from those they can build every unit. This may be a disadvantage when it comes to the decision "to Drone or not to Drone?", but it is a huge advantage when you need to switch the style of your army. Zerg simply need ONE Spire to switch from ground to air full force.
- Protoss are also able to switch their main army style from just the Gateway / Warp Gate, because it is a huge difference if you are fighting a Zealot-, Stalker- or Sentry-heavy army. If Protoss needs anti-air they can produce those from all of their Warp Gates in a matter of seconds. Granted, there are also the Robotics facility, but you only need one (or maybe two) of these to get all the expensive units you want and Chrono boost helps speeding it up anyways. The Stargate is not as necessary as the Starport is for a Terran player, but you dont need many of those either.
- Terrans are screwed in their ability to switch their army style fast, because they need LOTS of buildings to produce units fast enough for a switch. So if you started with a bio-army it is not easy to suddenly start pumping lots of Vikings to defend against a heavy air army.
There is another structural disadvantage to the Terran army and that is its need to diversify. While a Marauder-heavy army may be successful for quite some time it gets annihilated by Immortals. You are practically forced to get Ghosts to survive and these are somewhat hard to use, because they are fragile, expensive AND require energy to use. Apart from the "general" need for anti-air and detection against cloaking I dont see any other race being forced to get a certain unit as much as the Terrans are. Especially if you try to use mech against Protoss it is a necessity to get Ghosts as well.
So decision making is important, but as Terran you are left with only one decision while the other two races can make lots of decisions (to tech-switch) during the game.
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On May 04 2010 01:22 Rabiator wrote:I have felt that Terrans have a "structural disadvantage" in their unit-building mechanics for quite some time. - Zerg only need Larvae, but from those they can build every unit. This may be a disadvantage when it comes to the decision "to Drone or not to Drone?", but it is a huge advantage when you need to switch the style of your army. Zerg simply need ONE Spire to switch from ground to air full force.
- Protoss are also able to switch their main army style from just the Gateway / Warp Gate, because it is a huge difference if you are fighting a Zealot-, Stalker- or Sentry-heavy army. If Protoss needs anti-air they can produce those from all of their Warp Gates in a matter of seconds. Granted, there are also the Robotics facility, but you only need (or maybe two) of these to get all the expensive units you want and Chrono boost helps speeding it up anyways. The Stargate is not as necessary as the Starport is for a Terran player, but you dont need many of those either.
- Terrans are screwed in their ability to switch their army style fast, because they need LOTS of buildings to produce units fast enough for a switch. So if you started with a bio-army it is not easy to suddenly start pumping lots of Vikings to defend against a heavy air army.
There is another structural disadvantage to the Terran army and that is its need to diversify. While a Marauder-heavy army may be successful for quite some time it gets annihilated by Immortals. You are practically forced to get Ghosts to survive and these are somewhat hard to use, because they are fragile, expensive AND require energy to use. Apart from the "general" need for anti-air and detection against cloaking I dont see any other race being forced to get a certain unit as much as the Terrans are. Especially if you try to use mech against Protoss it is a necessity to get Ghosts as well.
Each race should be advantaged/disadvantaged in certain ways. That's why they are so different. It's not just different units and buildings, but different styles.
Zerg are the most "structurally advantaged" and Terran are the most "structurally disadvantaged" That's how it meant to be. But there really is no blatant imbalance between races. That's because terran have advantages in other ways.
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On May 04 2010 01:25 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 01:22 Rabiator wrote:I have felt that Terrans have a "structural disadvantage" in their unit-building mechanics for quite some time. - Zerg only need Larvae, but from those they can build every unit. This may be a disadvantage when it comes to the decision "to Drone or not to Drone?", but it is a huge advantage when you need to switch the style of your army. Zerg simply need ONE Spire to switch from ground to air full force.
- Protoss are also able to switch their main army style from just the Gateway / Warp Gate, because it is a huge difference if you are fighting a Zealot-, Stalker- or Sentry-heavy army. If Protoss needs anti-air they can produce those from all of their Warp Gates in a matter of seconds. Granted, there are also the Robotics facility, but you only need (or maybe two) of these to get all the expensive units you want and Chrono boost helps speeding it up anyways. The Stargate is not as necessary as the Starport is for a Terran player, but you dont need many of those either.
- Terrans are screwed in their ability to switch their army style fast, because they need LOTS of buildings to produce units fast enough for a switch. So if you started with a bio-army it is not easy to suddenly start pumping lots of Vikings to defend against a heavy air army.
There is another structural disadvantage to the Terran army and that is its need to diversify. While a Marauder-heavy army may be successful for quite some time it gets annihilated by Immortals. You are practically forced to get Ghosts to survive and these are somewhat hard to use, because they are fragile, expensive AND require energy to use. Apart from the "general" need for anti-air and detection against cloaking I dont see any other race being forced to get a certain unit as much as the Terrans are. Especially if you try to use mech against Protoss it is a necessity to get Ghosts as well. Each race should be advantaged/disadvantaged in certain ways. That's why they are so different. It's not just different units and buildings, but different styles. Zerg are the most "structurally advantaged" and Terran are the most "structurally disadvantaged" That's how it meant to be. But there really is no blatant imbalance between races. That's because terran have advantages in other ways.
Which advantages do Terrans have over the other races? Stronger units would be the way to make up for their lack of production flexibility, but thats not really the case. The siege tank is as solid as a piece of butter on a sunny day and even the Thor isnt that much better.
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On May 04 2010 01:01 ccdnl wrote:
As a Terran player I do feel that one decision or the other dictates our future couple of minutes much more than it does than for a Protoss/zerg player. 5 seconds late injecting a larvae, or 7 seconds late chronoboosting a probe production doesn't seem to have the same consequences as 4 seconds late muling/scanning plus deciding which one you will do.
Makes no sense, compare to zerg everything an orbital command can do adds EXTRA value to you, mules give you extra minerals, scans allows you to scout less, supply gets you an extra supply depot. Zerg will always be capped in minerals (before saturation, you are probably capped by how much minerals you have, after saturation, you are capped by the amount of mineral patches), Zerg will always have to scout by saccing overlords (which also affects food).
Your only argument comparing zerg vs terran is that orbital command uses 50 energy at a time whereas queens use only 25, so every time you make a decision, it is worth more. But since you are only deciding extra stuff you want rather than what you need, the consequences are in no way as dire as zergs forgetting to spawn larva or droning too much instead of army (especially early game), you can live without a mule or a scan or an extra depot, try telling zergs to live without spawn larva.
if you compare to protoss, Slightly similar, if they double chronoboost duration and double energy, it would be really similar. But again, same theory, minerals mined after saturation = MULES EXTRA MINERALS, same theory for supply.
The only argument here lies in DT harass, which you should have spotted and built turrets or start saving energy early.
So decision making: is using a larva to build an overlord so you can sacrifice one to scout easier than saving energy for a scan? is planning for a new expansion because your current one is saturated and you have no other way to increase your income easier than calling down mules? Is managing your food limit easier when your overlords constantly gets sniped easier than instant 8 food you can call in?
Why do zergs have to fast expand so much to keep up with terrans? because given the same amount of mineral patches, terrans can do so much more with it.
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Rabiator,
"Which advantages do Terrans have over the other races?"
They're the humans, and the human race ALWAYS wins in the end of the sci-fi movie...
But how about the fact that they're the only race that can build anywhere they want without immediate restriction (pylon power, creep)? I think that's pretty clutch, to be honest.
And they can wall in much easier than the other two races.
Lift-off is pretty useful too... building a CC/OC in your base and THEN moving it, which let's you be extra safe when expanding.
So... that's... three advantages that Terran has (just off the top of my head)? Each race has advantages and disadvantages.
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Decision making is definitely a part of it. I think the issue isn't necessarily more decisions, but everything is tied to heavier(imo) economic consequences. ie the cost of the wrong opener, harass units that dont payoff but had such a large investment , and the cost/time of switching from there in addition to relative lacking in macro.
There's just a certain rigidity to the terran tech and production system. I dont kno if its the main problem, but I feel the issue is partly in the abilities and spells variety. Good use of spells and abilities(forcefield, aoe etc) can equalize a game, (in addition to macroing harder and adjusting strategy). Terran spells seem to be heavily single damage, with the more interesting spells being late or costly (eg ghosts->cloak->nuke).
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On May 04 2010 01:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 01:25 AppleTart wrote:On May 04 2010 01:22 Rabiator wrote:I have felt that Terrans have a "structural disadvantage" in their unit-building mechanics for quite some time. - Zerg only need Larvae, but from those they can build every unit. This may be a disadvantage when it comes to the decision "to Drone or not to Drone?", but it is a huge advantage when you need to switch the style of your army. Zerg simply need ONE Spire to switch from ground to air full force.
- Protoss are also able to switch their main army style from just the Gateway / Warp Gate, because it is a huge difference if you are fighting a Zealot-, Stalker- or Sentry-heavy army. If Protoss needs anti-air they can produce those from all of their Warp Gates in a matter of seconds. Granted, there are also the Robotics facility, but you only need (or maybe two) of these to get all the expensive units you want and Chrono boost helps speeding it up anyways. The Stargate is not as necessary as the Starport is for a Terran player, but you dont need many of those either.
- Terrans are screwed in their ability to switch their army style fast, because they need LOTS of buildings to produce units fast enough for a switch. So if you started with a bio-army it is not easy to suddenly start pumping lots of Vikings to defend against a heavy air army.
There is another structural disadvantage to the Terran army and that is its need to diversify. While a Marauder-heavy army may be successful for quite some time it gets annihilated by Immortals. You are practically forced to get Ghosts to survive and these are somewhat hard to use, because they are fragile, expensive AND require energy to use. Apart from the "general" need for anti-air and detection against cloaking I dont see any other race being forced to get a certain unit as much as the Terrans are. Especially if you try to use mech against Protoss it is a necessity to get Ghosts as well. Each race should be advantaged/disadvantaged in certain ways. That's why they are so different. It's not just different units and buildings, but different styles. Zerg are the most "structurally advantaged" and Terran are the most "structurally disadvantaged" That's how it meant to be. But there really is no blatant imbalance between races. That's because terran have advantages in other ways. Which advantages do Terrans have over the other races? Stronger units would be the way to make up for their lack of production flexibility, but thats not really the case. The siege tank is as solid as a piece of butter on a sunny day and even the Thor isnt that much better.
SC2 is not perfectly balanced, but in racial identity its fine the way it is right now. Zerg has production flexibility advantage and Terran does not. But terran can fly their structures and build anywhere they want to, do not have the larve factor to limit worker to unit production ratio, Terran can also wall in and do not have to sac a worker each time they make a structure. Zerg cannot proxy tech or proxy cheese or bunker rush in that respect. Also, their macro mechanic (the queen) can actually be killed. In order to kill the terran macro mechanic, you have to actually destroy the command center.
This list goes on for all races. The point is it would be boring if all races had equal flexibility and equal capabilities in all aspects. The point is races should be distinct with unique advantages and weaknesses
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On May 03 2010 23:18 Tump wrote:
I think Protoss should get Shield Battery on Nexus, that would give some more decision making for them ^^
good one
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youre talking about reactor and tech lab etc but you dont mention that for example zerg has to chose between banelings, speedlings, roaches or expand or w/e. heavily biased thread.
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What is the point of this post? Are you trying to claim that terran players have more decision making to do than zerg or toss players?
THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF DECISION MAKING!
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Nice write-up and I commend the OP for taking the time to write it. However, I have to disagree with the main conclusions from the post.
Firstly, decision-making is the bane of ALL three units, not just Terran. As it is right now, the only race that really does not get punished the most for decision making is Zerg, but their power always relied on their ability to be able to make giant tech switches with very little drawbacks.
The first thing I noticed about your post was the charts, which, in my opinion, are grossly biased and incorrect. What the OP failed to note was that Protoss teching doesn't simply end at "warp gate." Many Protoss will need to choose between templar, stargate, and robo tech. Although one can argue that robo tech is probably the safest and most reliable tech choice, the decision the Protoss has to make is enormous when choosing between the three. If robo tech is take, Protoss will be playing a pretty standard game with timing pushes and macro.
The decision really lies in choosing not to go robo. When stargate and templar tech is used, it's arguably riskier, but the benefits can be enormous, especially since many players are learning how to reasonably counter robo tech. There are so many factors to take into consideration such as while stargate tech provides scouting in the form of the phoenix, templar tech will delay obs.
Although chronoboost does help with the whole teching issue, one thing that OP ignores is the fact that the resource cost and actual build time of the buildings are unchanged. Protoss has the most expensive and longest build times (on average) for their tech buildings and researches. This absolutely must be taken into consideration and is one reason why you rarely ever see a Protoss explore all three or even just two (just getting obs doesn't count) of their tech tree. On the other hand, Terran can easily just switch add-ons to unlock more tech options.
Also, I'm pretty sure no one ever plans out a game plan into 104 supply regardless what race you're playing. For Terran, the decision between MULE and scan is pretty simple that point in the game I feel. Once you reach that late in the game your bases should be saturated and your income will be running equal to Zerg or Protoss. Therefore, scan should most likely be much more useful unless you just really need minerals for something. In mid-late game that decision between MULE and scan is really not that complicated or hard a decision. The only time it's actually very tough is in the early game when you're behind in terms of base saturation, but scouting is still vital.
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There have been some excellent posts on the last pages. Let's try not to put this offtopic by talking about general balance here, please!
youre talking about reactor and tech lab etc but you dont mention that for example zerg has to chose between banelings, speedlings, roaches or expand or w/e. heavily biased thread.
I have said before that I admit me including the reactor and tech lab are problematic. Also I play 100% Protoss (and random before that) so calling this biased (although I made sure to note that this is not about balance at all time and time again) is just pointless.
What is the point of this post? Are you trying to claim that terran players have more decision making to do than zerg or toss players?
THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF DECISION MAKING!
Wow, your usage of uppercase letters really makes for a decisive argument. Thumbs up! Maybe you want to present some evidence why the amount of decision making is equal in a thread that claims its not?
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AppleTart :
zerg cannot proxy
300 is steep but it is ze only production building, each playstyles' risk are implied in ze race
zerg is a map controller
zi protoss borders on extinction and should have reigned over the sc galaxy
and finally the terran is an opportunistic scavenger (as it is in real life)
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Zerg got the larvas to manage, to a lesser extent late game altough early game can make or break a game on how you power drone or make a stronger army with your larvas.
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On May 04 2010 01:54 baskerville wrote:
AppleTart :
zerg cannot proxy
300 is steep but it is ze only production building, each playstyles' risk are implied in ze race
zerg is a map controller
zi protoss borders on extinction and should have reigned over the sc galaxy
and finally the terran is an opportunistic scavenger (as it is in real life)
Basker I wasn't arguing in favor of each race just trying to give examples of what each race has advantages in doing.
I pretty much said in my post how all the races are different I don't get why you are trying to argue against me.
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On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two things
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything.
Beat me to it! But I definitly agree with 2 aswell.
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Sorry don't want to be rude but this thread is really absolutely pointless. Every race is different as it was in brood war and if one has (not saying it does) more decision making - than it is only the good thing. Threads are becoming more and more worthless, please people think before you start any thread.
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My impression is that, terran suffers a lot more from BO losses than other races
Its so hard to change your unit composition, unless you went for the right one from the start you are in big trouble most games.
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give the nexus a shield that either: makes the unit invulnerable for (x=3) seconds or absorbs 200-300 dmg over (x=5) seconds. 50 energy
change the queen's single target heal to a less powerful but chain heal. ~3-4 chains?
perhaps give the queen's attack a slight half-second slowing effect (so that two kite/tractor-beam micro-down banshees that got too close for instance).
the supply depot call down is really only good for when your depot macro fails. this is helpful in game but i don't think from a design perspective its very good or tension-inducing since a player with good macro should never have to use it as there is no advantage offered by it when used proactively.
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EDIT: gah... quoted myself
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Protoss decisions to make every game:
How many sentries? 100 gas each means delayed tech. Fast tech or not? Lets sack a probe.
Robo/Stargate/Templar? Especially with Nony's phoenix build, there is more variability here. It depends on how many marines they have currently (many marines now is bad for phoenix), but if they have tech labs and just built initial marines, I feel stargate is better. Reactor is usually robo.
Chronoboost first collosus or thermal lance?
How many immortals before collosus? Too many and you'll get tech switched and lose, and if you do not build enough you can lose instantly.
Blink before charge or vice versa? Depends on unit comp. Sometimes it could be tough to tell. Also, factor in the map and your APM/ability to harass.
Are DTs in this situation worth it? Well, he has reactors on starports and not a bunch of turrets, yes. No addons on starports... is he close to ravens? Take a look at his units, expo timing, will he have ravens soon? Is the 30 seconds without ravens crucial for my expansion?
Tarran is very mobile once they get medivacs. Where should I keep my army so I do not get dropped but also can apply pressure? This really makes a crucial decision for taking your third.
Upgrade timings. In all of this... how am I supposed to get the gas for this? Cut what where?
How many obs should I be making? 100 gas is a lot, and if he's sniping them then it can get expensive. However, since we do not have maphack *I mean, scan!*, we need obs around. How am I going to do this correctly in this situation?
Chronoboost the first zealot for aggression? But this basically means I lose probes. Is it a good position for me to do this?
Chronoboost the first stalker? Is there a reaper coming?
How many chronoboosts should I save for my first immortal/phoenix?
When should I be cutting probes/stop chronoing the nexus? (Hint, play one game chronoboosting your nexus. It's not SC1 anymore, you'll have 100 probes on 2 expansions and just laugh at your replay.)
Nat timing. You'll get curb stomped if you do this wrong.
Are mutas coming? I need to check to see if I need cannons ready!!!
That's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I don't want to sound negative but it really does seem like you did not give Protoss any justice. It really sounds like you haven't played them or thought about what you did while playing them. Every race has their decisions, they are just different. The Tarran ones are just more obvious because you see an energy bar tell you that it exists.
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Have the Queen inject the larvae into a particular production building, and that production building can produce larvae that can only build that unit. Thus you could have 3 queens in your base injecting in the spire and spawning pool, etc. Would force more unit diversity as well, although I'd def need a ton of tweaking.
Imagine making multiple spawning pools or hydra dens instead to mass them^
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I almost forgot the most interesting decision of all for Protoss.
When using a phoenix build, how many workers to kill during a harass? This is the only harass where killing every worker you can IS HARMFUL. Try a game where you use up all your phoenix energy and get counter attacked. Your phoenixes are useless if you lift too many. However, the more you lift the more successful the harass is. You need enough to slow his gas, make him put up turrets, and scare the f*** out of him so you can expand, but also leave as much energy as possible so when the battle comes you have "lockdown"/gravitation lift.
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Very nice read but I believe the decision making is a bit different.
Terran do not have the most instant decision making what I mean by that is its all very the same for Terran when a battle happens or when they are macroing up. There are no use A abilty or B abilty what there is though is game breaking choices. What you do with each building and what building you make and when you attack has a much greater affect for Terran then any other race.
Bad post but I have class in three minutes...
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A lot of people seem to be commenting about how every race has to make decisions, but many of the decisions being discussed are very general (i.e. what to upgrade first, what units to make first, etc).
I do agree with the OP that Terran have the most decisions to make as far as buildings go. I think that the ability to swap addons around is neat and certainly alleviates some of the feelings of being locked in, however I'm not too fond of being locked into either an orbital command or planetary fortress. I think there should be a way to swtich back to a basic command center (salvage perhaps?).
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Heres the hardest desicion making of all 3 races: Zerg.
When to drone up?
Unlike protoss and terran, you cannot constantly be producing 1 worker by 1 worker, as your always on edge between choosing to produce units, or Drones with your larvae.
You can think about it as Zerg having a 3'rd resource, especially in mid-early game. It's much easier for T to hotkey the CC to 1, and que up a couple scv's here and there to keep constant production going without harm, and still get units, same with probes
But for zerg, its the choice between getting 3 drones for the next 45 seconds of larvae, or getting 3 combat units (which may be needed to help defend) Which is what i've encountered a lot being ranked 1 plat in my division vs a protoss. I'll be sitting there making 100% units once they start their constant 4-gate or immortal push, and all they have to do is keep pumping probes from both his main and expo, BUT for zerg players, if you try to sneak in a drone every 3'rd or so larvae, it may cost you in the end, especially when your getting constant pressure applied. One larve (per hatch) comes ever 15 seconds, in which the builders build time as P and T is 17 seconds per. Now: With the queens one larve every extra 10 seconds it helps make this decision a bit easier, making one larve every approx 6 every 40 seconds, 7 every 45 seconds (with PERFECT macro) which really is hard once pressure is applied.
I'm not saying anything is "over-powered", Yet stating that Zerg has alot more desicion making than is credited in this article, and for terran its actually generally easier.. i mean it's pretty much power mule until you plan to tech up, then save up for a scan (or against Z earlier, just liftoff a barracks. a free 100$ scan, which will cover more area mid-early game) I mean, very few people actually use supply drops, as they arent as economical for current-times, unless you really need to conserve your minerals in your base, or once under immidiate attack, to lay down some supplies. and PF's arent that hard to decide. Is opponent getting alot of z-ling baneling hydra? Yes? PF. Heavy roaches/muta? yes? OC
Yes terran still has some decistion making in the end, but the thought of droning-up for many T and P players doesnt occur as such as hassle as it really is.
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no... zerg is still the highest decision making.
..............................----------tech building
............................./
.............-------drone--------------defense building
............/ ............. \
.........../.................---------harvester
larva---/ ---------overlord
.........\
...........\---------army----7 choices
Every single larva.
What I'd like to see in this thread: Do you feel agree with the very one-sided distribution of these macro-decisions? If so, do you think they make an impact on the difficulty of the race? What are possible chances that could ease this or is the current situation just fine as it is?
I agree there is a very one-sided distribution of macro-decisions being that zerg is still the most complex.
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Thanks for fucking spoiling one of the matches from the HDH invitational. I didn't get to watch it yet...
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@fable sry, but i would not like this idea... it would turn zerg into terran/toss... where i build like 8 hydra dens and have queens injecting them like crazy, while pumping drones. not only would this be too strong (having the ability to make like 16 hydras while making 7 drones instead of hydras or drones...
It would neuter what makes zerg zerg.. the decision on what to use my larva for. In the first few minutes of the game, i have every larva planned out... and if i mess one up, one less drone, one less overlord, miss an egg of lings, it can literally end my game right there.
Zerg only has so much larva available to them, the earlier you get a queen out the more larva you get, but the worse off your economy is. The later you get a queen the more droneing you can do but the less over all larva you have and your neuter your ability to quickly react to the current situation.
Lets not even go into what happens if I get harassed and lose a drone (not only do i lose income, but possible a spine crawler or the ability to drop my extractor on time)...
Every larva has to be planed out, even late game "ok, do i have enough drones to expo again? Do I have more drones then he does?" if you dont have more drones then your opponent, then their chrono boost and mules will boost their econ to a point where you can't catch up.
Then late game, when we have a huge army fighting, I have to go back to spawn larva or I lose those larva for ever... not to mention when the battle is done, do I expo, do I need to build an army to defend, or do I make lings to harass.
and If I drone, does he have a small army built up which I just wasted my larva and cannot defend now?
If I make an army, is he expanding, and do I have enough of an army to attack? if not, then I fall further behind in economy.
If I make lings, what happens if his static defenses hold me off? thats a HUGE larva investment.
Zerg have TONNES of choices, and they all stem from what to do with larva... While T and P are constrined by how much minerals and gas they have, they have the ability to make workers and a military as the same time... zerg is constrained by gas, minerals, and larva... making every larva precious and a single mistake where you make the wrong thing and cancel is something that can cost you the game.
(and yes, one egg of lings or drones can make the difference in a game... if I make a drone instead of lings and he kills my queen, where those lings would of saved it puts me so so so so so so far behind its stupid...)
Just saying, Zerg is trivialized in this thread... well so is toss but I don't play them.
Also just @ the mule/scan dilema... to me its sort of the same as larva/tumor... its
mule
mule
mule
mule
mule
mule
k enough for a scan... lets see what he has... k
mule
mule
mule
etc... people only save scans if they know that they need detectors... does anyone save scans for v zerg... most likely not. Does anyone save scans if they know the opponent isn't getting dt's or banshees no, they don't... you get mules.
if you want to see what the enemy is doing you do what the rest of us do... send a unit, a worker or a cheap unit like a marine to die...
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Calgary25980 Posts
Do you feel agree with the very one-sided distribution of these macro-decisions? No.
If so, do you think they make an impact on the difficulty of the race? N/A
What are possible chances that could ease this or is the current situation just fine as it is? N/A
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But again.. terran can switch tech very easily, since the tech lab is shorter to build now (post patch 8)
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If anything I don't think the orbital command has enough good decision making, and I don't think there's enough reason to go planetary fortress (except on maps like desert oasis, with open naturals). There's pretty much never a reason to go planetary fortress because it's 100% defensive with no other benefits. Then we make the orbital. And hey, guess what?
Calldown supply is economically inferior to the mule. And scouting options are almost always cheaper than the opportunity cost of scan. 150 minerals for a floating rax, 50 mineral suicide scv, 50 mineral/50 gas reaper, free floating factory while teching to starport, all cheaper opportunities than scan. Mule is almost always the way to go. One of the few times scanning is worth it is when you need to see the high ground, or you need immediate knowledge of a far off expansion. Scanning is rare in comparison to the mule, and for good reason. Economically it's simply better to scout using other methods.
So I don't think terran has enough decision making. It's just mule mule mule mule mule mule. I'd like to see calldown mule to be changed so that you can call down a mule for economy or you can call down some units (call them down on top of a production facility only). In the short run it would help you out, in the long run you'd have a smaller army. That would be interesting. What isn't interesting is having one ability that's superior in every facet of the game 90% of the time.
To me, the protoss is the only race that have a functional macro mechanic. They have a choice to boost their economy or to boost their army. For zerg, their macro mechanic involves no choice - spawn larva if I want to boost my economy, spawn larva if I want to boost my army. For terran, their macro mechanic involves no choice - mule for my economy.
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On May 04 2010 00:46 Archerofaiur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 00:44 atarianimo wrote:On May 03 2010 23:29 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 03 2010 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Yes
Orbital: What ability do I use?
Yes
Queen: What ability do I use?
No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time. I think the decision with Zerg is what you do with the extra larva the queen gives you. It doesnt matter that there is decision making in another part of the game. The fact of the matter is that there is not decision making in when/how to use spawn larva. Its just Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva Spawn Larva
You are wrong if you think the Queen is only used for Spawn Larva. There are many times many good Zerg players forgo Spawn Larva for both creep tumors and transfusion. Of course, if they need the larvae, they will use Spawn Larva. But there are many other times where the energy would be better spent on a creep tumor or saved up for transfusions. I don't see how this is any different from the tension between MULE/scan.
@ OP: Deciding which buildings get add-ons and deciding how to use your macro mechanics is a TINY, TINY portion of decision making involved in SC2. And if you think you can so easily label Terran as having more decision making based on the evidence you've given, you're seriously kidding yourself.
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You can pretty much cross off transfusion from that zerg tree lol. Cases where you need that are quite situational.
I really don't think decision making is a problem. If you were on the zerg side of things, the big complaint here is the LACK of decisions (comparatively!), that is, it's bland as hell because it's so forcibly linear.
When I refer to decision making, I am completely ignoring the decision of egging. Strictly speaking about macro mechanics and tech pattern options.
On May 04 2010 02:41 alexanderzero wrote:
Thanks for fucking spoiling one of the matches from the HDH invitational. I didn't get to watch it yet...
same here -.-
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On May 04 2010 03:03 Saracen wrote:
@ OP: Deciding which buildings get add-ons and deciding how to use your macro mechanics is a TINY, TINY portion of decision making involved in SC2. And if you think you can so easily label Terran as having more decision making based on the evidence you've given, you're seriously kidding yourself.
I hope I didn't come across like that. I am well aware of the fact that I limited my scope A TON (analyzing the full decision making differences between the three races would be a task that you could work your whole life on). More importantly, I didn't claim that Terran has more of a need for decision making overall. I did claim that, in the scope of macro mechanics, I personally feel there is more need for decision making. Again, that has its up- and downsides.
Also, it would help if we would focus less on the, not very well thought out, diagrams I whipped up in Paint and, with that, the talk about the add-ons for Terran production buildings. That's not really a part of the macro mechanics and I now see that including them was a mistake. They are related to the topic at hand, but aren't the topic.
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lol, I wish the zerg suffered from having too many decisions to make (although I'm pretty happy about them in general). And I wouldn't worry about new players coming in and getting overwhelmed, the first game features the terrans, so everyone's gonna be comfortable with them when the game is out. Anyways, its like tossing your kid in the lake to learn how to swim; its funny and you know the kids gonna swim unless they wanna die.
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On May 04 2010 03:11 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:41 alexanderzero wrote:
Thanks for fucking spoiling one of the matches from the HDH invitational. I didn't get to watch it yet... same here -.-
I apologize for spoiling the game to you guys but threads like this will obviously talk about recent games or use them as references (as is enforced by forum policy). If people didn't do that, we couldn't back up any claims. Also, it's one game out of a best of 3 so it's not like you know any end results.
Maybe a moderator can change the title to include a spoiler warning for an HDH game, I can't seem to edit the title.
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On May 04 2010 01:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Zoltan,
I like the list of questions you created (the ones that you're constantly asking yourself, as a Terran player), but I would argue that any Protoss or Zerg player can formulate a similar set of questions that are constantly going through THEIR heads as well. Being conscientious of things like macro, micro, scouting, harrassment, and other strategies must *always* be going through a great players' head, regardless of their race.
Im not arguing that in the slightest- i just feel theres more involved with terran macro mechanics than the other races in their decision making.
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I don't understand how you could possible interpret decision making as a bad thing. That is assuming all the decisions you're making are meaningful, and for the most part they are.
Plus, you're diagrams are heavily rigged. Chronoboost what? Chronoboost Upgrade/Army/Eco.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
God, i feel like i'm at Starbucks surrounded by a bunch of hipsters with mac book pros writing screen plays while wearing scarves and the rims of glasses. You don't need to write entire essays to ask or reply to questions. It's like everyone is trying super hard to be recognized in the community, so they write a massive tirade just to be heard.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
And for the record, decision making is an integral point of ANY game. These thread titles are sending me full tilt. FFFFFF
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EPT
