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The main threat is from Spider mines. If Goons deal low dmg vs Vultures, its more important to mix in Stalker
Spider mines get blocked all the time if you try to place them close or behind to Dragoons since Spider Mines can't be placed where there is a unit (think this was different in BW). So setting up mines doesn't really feel very good vs Dragoons.
But If you have the unit numbers, Vultures are quite good vs Dragoons atm when a-moved atm. I can only see Dragoons being very inefficient if they deal half the damage to Vultures.
If Blink is weak enough, maybe range 3, 15-30 sec cooldown, I don´t think it will be unkillable vs Zerg. But it will be enough to increase their efficiency in combat/harassment/micro potential, even vs units it is normally bad against.
But that implies that it actually could benefit from an early game buff vs zerg. I don't see it that way at all.
And If you reduce stats --> Vultures owns protoss even worse.
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Spider mines get blocked all the time if you try to place them close or behind to Dragoons since Spider Mines can't be placed where there is a unit (think this was different in BW). So setting up mines doesn't really feel very good vs Dragoons.
That is a Vulture/Mine thing that is off in Sbow. Hopefully it can be improved. December is busy nowadays with school work, so he does not have time to work on it. (And he is really really good at stuff like this.) Otherwise I will have to try to fix it.
But If you have the unit numbers, Vultures are quite good vs Dragoons atm when a-moved atm. I can only see Dragoons being very inefficient if they deal half the damage to Vultures.
But that implies that it actually could benefit from an early game buff vs zerg. I don't see it that way at all.
And If you reduce stats --> Vultures owns protoss even worse.
Now I don´t follow you?
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@kabel
show the roach?
Give his stats?
Upload stuff to the unittester?
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Regarding macro mechanics
December and some other players have some good points regarding them.
Time is a boundless resource in BW. No player can do everything: have perfect macro, rally all workers perfectly to start mining, perfect army control, perfect micro, perfect multitasking. Where shall you put your focus? You can´t have your screen at everything at once.
Macro mechanics in SC2 do not have that unlimited boundary.
Most pro players can use perfect Inject, drop Mules, and use Chrono boost. It will likely be the same way in Sbow.
Hard for newcomers to use it right. Easy for really great players.
So it does not really mimic the intensity of the BW macro.
We can however use the approach suggested by LaLush - each macro mechanic is very cheap to cast and lasts a short amount of time. Thus, it is important to constantly use them to macro. As a way to recreate the clicking from BW. (Although it debatble whether that is fun or not.)
But that is not the main point why I so eagerly tries to get the macro mechanics to fit in the game. There are three aspects I enjoy with them, even if they are not APM super intensive.
Base management
I can spend some extra APM to manage stuff in my base throughout the game - get out units a little faster, squeeze out an extra amount of workers, spread that creep to connect bases and gain vision. There are fun decisions to do: Calldown my SCV to repair my harassing Banshee, or build emergency Turrets at a location. Chrono boost my Cannons or save it to get Storm tech out, use Nurturing Swarm to heal a Lurker who is about to die, or speed up my Spore crawler morph rate. Lots of utility comes from those mechanics.
The meta game
Some of the meta game from BW works in Sbow. I like that the macro mechanics can shake this up a bit. Nurturing swarm allows some tech to come earlier in the game, at the expense of having less larva, weaker early econ. Chrono boost can get out some extra units or tech faster, etc. Room for more timings, strategies, exploration, variations. Small details revealed - the Nexus saves energy. Is he gonna use Rift for an early push or for Chronoing out something important?
Speed up the game
I generally prefer if the game speed is slower, but I do like that there is potential to "start the action" sooner.
However, it is very hard to balance them. Especially the new Terran macro mechanic. It seems like I can not really change the values I would like with it, due to the way the editor works. Its either train 2 units, or train 1 unit.
If we want the mechanics to focus more on producing units, we can do things like Chrono boost affects Gateway 100%, Nexus 50%. (As some of you have suggested.) Just needs to get it even between the races..
I consider to temporarily remove the macro mechanics from the game, since we play a lot without them anyway.
Orbital only gives scan. Later on can they be brought back again, when there is a better solution for them, and when things like Reaper, Stalker, Viking and other important things have been fixed..
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Roach
I will write what I have in mind for this unit.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g0m6hXc.jpg)
What is the purpose of even trying to add it to the game?
>>>+ Show Spoiler + - Get one extra core unit for Zerg, which CAN lead to more diversity, build orders, unit composition, micro, army control, strategy and other funny things in all match-ups. (IF we get the Roach to feel good..)
- Fit better into the unit relationships that have now been created due to the addition of Stalker + Marauder.
General features of it:
>>>+ Show Spoiler + - Tough HP
- "Slow and clumsy"
- Short range attack
- Attack ground only.
- Good vs light and medium, bad vs armored
- Micro and speed potential via especially burrow ability
- It shall not overlap with either Zergling or Hydralisk, or anything else, to as small degree as possible.
- It is not suppose to be a hard counter vs anything. (As I generally try to avoid hard counters.)
- Since it has short attack range, it does not benefit from being clumped up in a ball. (Like Hydras do.)
- Rather is it suppose to work well in combination with other units, since it can tank damage.
- It shall also be able to work good when outside the army, mainly due to its burrow ability.
How does it fit with the other units? Is it even good vs anything?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +The Roach is a bit special, mainly due to its ability I will write about further down. Depending on how it is microed, it can be ok vs many kinds of units. And many kinds of units can be ok vs it. It also serves a purpose to soak up damage/block, which makes it good in combination with other units, But if we look at it in pure stats, here is a simple overview:
- ZvP - Good vs Stalker, OK vs Zealot. Vulnerable vs Dragoon, Archon, air.
- ZvT - Good vs Vulture and Marine. Ok vs mech. Vulnerable vs Marauder, Siege Tank, air
- ZvZ - Good vs Zerglings and Banelings. (Zerglings > Hydralisks > Roaches > Zerglings, kinda)
They are also much better vs workers than Hydras are.
Keep in mind that Stalkers + Vultures are now better vs Hydras. (And quite good vs Lings)
Lets look closer of the ability and other practical stuff with the Roach;
>>>+ Show Spoiler +140 life (enough to barely survive 2-shots from a Siege Tank) Armored 1 armor Range 3 High burst damage with slow attack speed (Maybe 16 vs light and medium, 12 vs armored. 2 sec attack cooldown) Speed 2.5 Supply 2 Cost 100/50 Requires Roach warren at Hatchery. Costs ?? If possible, it shall have a long damage point on its attack. Which means that when it moves close to an enemy unit to attack, it will stand still for ca 0.5 seconds to "load up" its attack. The enemy unit can be moved away to avoid the attack. Which allows weaker units like Marine to actually fight vs them with good micro. And it also means that Roaches need to be moved near its target, then attack. (Which makes it worse at A-moving, if the enemy player is active with his units.) But it all depends on how I manage to get it to feel in the editor. It shall ofc not be annoying. ' When I test those stats in the editor, vs other units, it is not a super damage dealer that just A-moves vs everything. (Like Hydras are.. he he he he he... ) 1 Zealot beats it 1v1. Stalker, Vulture and Marine can beat it with good micro. Rather it is a ugly tough thing that bites hard when it gets close. And it soaks up damage in the process. Since it moves slower than speed Hydras, it requires army management to get them in front once combat happens. Kinda like how a mech army need to manage so his Vultures do not run into the fight before the Tanks are with him. Ability ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/to8bLOi.jpg) It can upgrade an ability when Z has Lair tech. Costs maybe 100/100. I have some variations of it: 1. "Tunnel".. The Roach is burrowed for 5-6 seconds. During this time, it moves much faster. (Speed ca 3.25-3.75.) It takes less damage from attacks. When it unburrows, it becomes "benign" for 1 second, which allows it to always get the first shot off before the enemy can shoot. (Cooldown maybe 10-15 seconds) This allows it to assault positions, move faster over the map or catch enemy units. (Keep in mind they deal low dmg vs armored, so they can not just unburrow and vipe out sieged Tanks super easily. But they serve as valuable support/distraction.) They can burrow at the right time to dodge Reaver shots or Spider mine hits to minimize the damage. They can move into mineral lines? 2. Another variation to the above ability is that it deals small spalsh damage when it unburrows. Maybe it can even damage friendly units. Which means that a large blob of Roaches who unburrow will damage each other. So its better to seperate them. But if used properly, they can unuburrow under enemy units to deal small AoE damage. Or in worker lines. 3. "Deep tunnel.." The Roach targets a location with creep within a loong range.. 20-30? It burrows, vanishes for 5-10 seconds, then unburrows at that location. (Basically a teleport ability with good synergy with Overlord creep drop, and creep spread in general) Hive tech?
This unit shall not be something that can be massed, A-move into the enemy, GG if the enemy did not have the proper counter unit. But it will be a core unit that should at least require some control to become efficient. Much also depends on how it affects the match-ups. If it makes other units obsolete, or actually makes the game more lame, then its not good.
PvZ is a potential example of that. Hydralisks vs Zealots is such a crucial part of BW ZvP. Now there is room for Stalkers + Roaches. But this does not mean that mass Hydralisks vs Speed Zealot + Corsair can´t happen anymore. It just opens up room for alternative playstyles.
I did not cover all details and all potential concerns in this post.
Thoughts?
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@macro mechanics
Kabel, might we be able to see such a test map soon perhaps? I would like to see how it would look, btw I recall dec mentioning that he might try out removing smartcast and hotkeying groups(1+) of buildings, also removing automine. I'm really interested in seeing what kind of games this would provide for, but I do not myself know how hard it would be to change these things, but it can't hurt to just try it out on a test map if it's somewhat easy to change. 
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I read about the roach, and i like the concept of him. The unit if done right, can fit zerg well in my eyes.
General thoughts
One supply, to get more zerg feeling.
Range 3 still feels a little to high in my eyes.I want less criticalmass and more vulnerable to melee units, archons.
Damage: He should not be bad versus armored in my eyes. He should master mobility underground, to be able to fight siegetanks, take out key units such as templars or maybe reavers.
Armor: 1base armor is good. Could maybe, just maybe try two 2armor. Because: Better against marines and zealots.
His hp, is more tricky for me. In general i would like to see it smaller to see it fit more with zergs general approahces(small hp, high mobility).
His movement speed feels okay/good.
Micro: I like the stand in place for 0.5 sec before he shoots.
The broodwar attacksystem is great in this regard. Much can be done here to make him microable for and against.
His burrow ability
Would like his burrow to make him take reduced splash, 25%-75%. To be able to get close to tanks, reavers, hightremplars easier (so they need support with dragoons, terranbio or whatnot)
The movementspeed is more tricky here. Would like something tactical feeling here for him
He burrows>If he takes no damage for x seconds, he gets passive movement->The passivespeed cancels after he burrows or after x seconds after getting damaged
Or just a flat passivespeed.
With no cooldowns at all.
Picture it: You see 40hydras,25lings and 15roaches. The roaches are burrowed, right? They move around, waiting for good opportunity to get close to a unit or just simple unburrows and tanks for hydras or flank some marines.
His tech
Would like to see him get unlocked at lair tech.
Zerg goes lair: Now three options: Muta, Lurker, Roach
Let him start with burrow, and his ability. Just a building for him to be able to make him like the roachwarren or something.
Roach stats more organised:
.+ Show Spoiler +Hp: 110
cost: 85/35/1
Range: 2
Damage: 16 normal, attackspeed 1.8
Movement: 2.5
Armor: 1 ->in future maybe try 2(?)
Tech: Lair->roach warren(starts with ability and burrow)
My general relationships:
+ Show Spoiler +Roach, as different as hydra as possible:
Vs protoss
vs zealot: even fight->optimal, roach wins in lownumbers but lose in bigger numbers
vs dragoon: He lose, but not braindead lose
vs archon: lose against him->optimal, cost ineffecient(scared)
vs Terran
vs tank: optimal-> can with good use of burrow, fight mech armee combined with hydra/ling without darkswarm
vs Bio: Optimal-> Good vs marine, worse vs marauder
Note: i didnt take into account the stalker or vulture at light here.
Vulture at light
If roach is range 3, he will get hit by spidermines. He would need range 5 or maybe even higher because vultures have insane speed with very high movementspeed, and range 5 themself, and with that range increase the concept of the roach is dead in my eyes
Vulture will do 10damage every 1.75sec vs hydra
Hydra will do 10damage every 1.72 sec vs vult
So hydra still win 1v1, cuz of reg and that tiny faster attackspeed.
But vulture have spidermines, 25less gas cost and much higher movementspeed, could they use their "burst" with speed to neglect hydra doing two hits, maybe.
Still overall i say vulture is better here even if they still lose 1v1
Going vults for terran will force roaches for zerg, to atleast tank for hydralisk. In theory, optimal play for zerg against vults is: Few roaches as possible to tank, rest hydras
Stalker
I know we are gonna test him, but i will write this anyway even tho you might ignore it. Why not bring the hybrid destroyer model from the mapeditor, make him a core unit for protoss in robotic-> can walk up/down cliffs, something so toss can fight mecharmee better
Bring the unittester or testmap up, get the roach done right and this one and other stuff->viking, ghost, sentinel etc
Let us test for 1-2months
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@ Roach
- For this unit to have a role in the early vs terran mech --> Vultures needs to be light
- For Vultures (with spider mines) not being OP vs zerg --> Roach need to have a range of 3.5 (outrange Spider Mines).
- To make early game less coinflippy and reduce infastructure costs of zerg (which are increased after these changes), we can choose between a couple of solutions;
Solution 1; Give Hydra range upgrade fore free. Roach building should be pretty cheap to make infastructure costs low.
Solution 2:Only one building needed to be able to produce both Roaches and Hydralisks.
The former implies that you can afford more Hydras for the same investment early game. The second solution gives zerg a more flexible production which means that Hydralisks or Roaches alone can be pretty in some situations early game, but you can now easily mix them together
- For Stalkers not be OP early on vs zerg, Roaches can't be bad vs them. They will however be bad with 3-3.5 range and 2.5 movement speed with Stalkers having blink early on. Thus, Roach may need a starting movement speed that is only marginally below the speed of the Stalker (so I don't think it makes sense to keep the criteria that this unit has to be slow).
- If the burrow-thing is really really strong, then we have to make it comparable worse as an early game unit. Thus, I prefer that we just add the speedboost to borrow rather than also give it damage reduction vs splash.
The problem with Speed boost as a micro-thing during battles rather than primarily for harasspurposes is that it doesn't really synergize well with its suggested stats;
It is good vs light units + buffy --> Thus you want to use it to protect your Hydrailisks and kill off opponents buffer units (zealots, Vultures). You don't want to burrow move behind Vultures to snipe Siege tanks siege it doesn't do a lot of damage against them, and since you need the Roaches to kill the Vultures.
Further, I am not sure it really adds that fun (in the long term) to see burrow-micro during battles. Fun micro usually reolves around the opposing player being able to remicro against abilities (e.g splitting vs Storm). But how do you remicro against burrowed Roaches as mech?
My point is that the burrow speed thing can be fun to buff it as a harass/multtiask unit, but in normal battles it shouldn't be particularly strong. Then ofc you can use when you retreat or when you are trying to catch up to an enemy unit.
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@Roach
Stats and the exact ability can surely be tweaked.
All units in Starcraft cost something with 25. (75/25, 50, 50/50, 100/25, 125/50 etc) So if 100/50 is too expensive for the Roach, he can cost 100/25, 75/50 or something.
He should probably require Hatchery tech though, since Z likely needs a better way to deal with mainly Stalker + Vulture. (Hydras are ok, but not as superior vs them anymore.)
Vultures have range 4. With very good micro, it is possble to hit-and-run vs Roaches without getting hit. But it takes a while to actually kill a Roach this way.
- For this unit to have a role in the early vs terran mech --> Vultures needs to be light
Yep. As I have stated earlier, I intend to do as few changes as possible to BW units. However, if Vultures are Light, it impacts those two important relationships: Hydras little worse dmg vs Vultures, Dragoons little worse dmg vs Vultures.
But in this case, it opens up a greater need for Stalker + Roach in the army, which makes those units fit better in the game. So no harm should be done with this light change. (hehehe)
- For Vultures (with spider mines) not being OP vs zerg --> Roach need to have a range of 3.5 (outrange Spider Mines).
That is a valid concern. Unless there is a Roach range upgrade.. Or Spider mines have range 2.95... Or Roaches shall just be blown up by them? (Like Zerglings/Zealots) Although, that would probably render them quite useless vs mech play before they have the burrow ability.
- To make early game less coinflippy and reduce infastructure costs of zerg (which are increased after these changes), we can choose between a couple of solutions;
Solution 1; Give Hydra range upgrade fore free. Roach building should be pretty cheap to make infastructure costs low.
Solution 2:Only one building needed to be able to produce both Roaches and Hydralisks.
Zerg infrastructure needs a solution yes. Having both Roach + Hydra available at Hydra den feels a bit.. uninteresting?
(Although that is for P via Stalker + Dragoon at Cyber core.. but there we don´t really have any other structure to use.. unless Twilight is a really cheap structure..)
- For Stalkers not be OP early on vs zerg, Roaches can't be bad vs them.
1 Roach beats 1 Stalker with no micro. Speed 2.5 vs 2.95 is not that huge of a speed difference actually. It requires a bit of micro from the Stalkers to run, shoot, run, shoot vs Roaches without ever getting hit. If there are some Zerglings/Hydras as a part of the combat, that becomes much harder. (So a mix of units is encouraged.)
But IF Stalkers start with early weak Blink, that is more problematic. Unless Blink has a high cooldown.. But we might need to find an other solution for the early Stalker. (Something that makes it more unique control compared to the Goon, .. Which the early Blink intends to do.. )
It is good vs light units + buffy --> Thus you want to use it to protect your Hydrailisks and kill off opponents buffer units (zealots, Vultures). You don't want to burrow move behind Vultures to snipe Siege tanks siege it doesn't do a lot of damage against them, and since you need the Roaches to kill the Vultures.
That is an intention from my part. Kinda like Blink Stalkers - you want to keep them in the army to kill off Vultures/Zealots. BUT both Roach + Stalker have abilities that can distract Tanks/other units by Blinking/burrowing near them. Which gives room for the Dragoons + Hydras to get close and deal high dmg vs armored stuff. If Stalker + Roach did strong dmg vs armored, it would be so much easier to get close and kill the Tank with those pure units.
But how do you remicro against burrowed Roaches as mech?
If burrowed Roaches are attacked by a strong attack, they are slowed down? (As Foxxan said) Which means that T want to use Tanks to focus fire burrowed Roaches, and Z want to split his Roaches and not engage in a clump, to avoid splash damage. (Or have detection so Mines can detonate and slow them down. Although they might deal less dmg vs them, depending on how Burrow ability works.)
Stalker
I know we are gonna test him, but i will write this anyway even tho you might ignore it. Why not bring the hybrid destroyer model from the mapeditor, make him a core unit for protoss in robotic-> can walk up/down cliffs, something so toss can fight mecharmee better
You really really wanna see him in the game? :D
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zweMtQw.jpg)
IMO that model looks very missplaced. Doesn´t look like a Robotic facility unit to me. :S
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Not sure if I want roaches to be the solution to stalkers. Flooding lings should do the job if the stalkers are fragile with weak blink. Roaches, if placed in the game, should deal with zealots, reapers/marines (slightly) (position important) and vultures.
Again, these are not hard counters like Kabel pointed out.
(And again, I would rather not see the roach at all, as I have pointed out....)
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I agree with xiphias, I think roach will mess up more than it will fix. A tanky ranged unit goes against the concept of zerg imo.
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Zerg infrastructure needs a solution yes. Having both Roach + Hydra available at Hydra den feels a bit.. uninteresting?
I think if we don't do that, then balance will probably a bit difficult going forward (not impossible though). This may be slightly uninteresting, but I expect it will make our life easier.
However, it is very hard to balance them. Especially the new Terran macro mechanic. It seems like I can not really change the values I would like with it, due to the way the editor works. Its either train 2 units, or train 1 unit.
Hmm? It is not possible to make factory produce at 50% and barrack at 100%?
High burst damage with slow attack speed (Maybe 16 vs light and medium, 12 vs armored. 2 sec attack cooldown)
This will make it too weak.
In Sc2 the Roach benefits from zerg having much better econ. Thus, generally zerg-units should be more cost efficient in Sbow.
And even then the sc2-roach has better stats at a lower cost than this suggestion;
- Much lower damage than Sc2-roach
- 25 mins and 25 gas more expensive
- Lower range
I would maybe go with 22 vs light and 16.5, vs medium/armored and 150 HP if this should see any usage early game.
One important thing to note for balance purposeses is that we are making zerg more vulnerable to Vulture harass vs terran. This is quite desireable for gameplay purposes. However, in terms of balance, it also means that it must come at a compensation of Roach/Hydra being slightly more cost efficient in battles than pure Hydras. This is also desireable as it makes zerg less reliant upon Dark Swarm
But IF Stalkers start with early weak Blink, that is more problematic. Unless Blink has a high cooldown.. But we might need to find an other solution for the early Stalker. (Something that makes it more unique control compared to the Goon, .. Which the early Blink intends to do.. )
I really don't think we have to overcomplicate the issue here. The Stalker has an unique role early game, and then in the midgame it gets unique micro with the blink ability. In the perfect world, it would have unique micro all game long, however this is IMO acceptable unit design, and I think it will take us a lot of time to come up with something better.
On the other hand though, Stalkers (without new ability) needs a comepensation buff against Vultures. But I think it is limited how much we can buff it without breaking PvZ completely. The problem with blink as early game compensation is that its a bigger buff against zerg than against Vultures, which isn't desireable at all.
Thus, my suggested stats for the Stalker (+20 HP and the ability to 5-shot vultures) is likely not big enough to break PvZ. At the same time it will probably also make it possible for to survive against mass Vultures early game, but later on in the game protoss will still be handicapped against mech relative to BW ------> Immortal is needed to soak up Vulture shots.
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On October 10 2013 21:14 Xiphias wrote:
Not sure if I want roaches to be the solution to stalkers. Flooding lings should do the job if the stalkers are fragile with weak blink. Roaches, if placed in the game, should deal with zealots, reapers/marines (slightly) (position important) and vultures.
Again, these are not hard counters like Kabel pointed out.
(And again, I would rather not see the roach at all, as I have pointed out....)
I think the beuty of this suggestion (if we do it right - but without a doubt its gonna be difficult) is that it allows for so many styles and unit compostions to be viable. Each style will have a slight advantage, and no style really hardcounters/sucks against any unit compostiion.
For instance imagine this in ZvP
Speedling + Roach --> This is strong because you combine a larvaefficient and a larvainefficient unit together. Thus they synergize pretty well in that way. Speedlings atm. are softcountered by Stalkers + Zealots, but then you add in Roaches that can deal pretty well with Zealots and tank Stalker shots pretty well. Stalkers though can ofc kite Roaches, but when you mix in Speedlings, that isn't a particularly big issue.
This style will be pretty good to obtain map control efficiently in the early game. But can also lead to you coming slightly behind against a defensive economic player as you can't really "kill" someone that plays greedy behind a wall off with cannons.
Further, you could also be vulnerable against air opeings.
Roach + Hydra --> Roaches will tank vs Stalkers and Hydras will be the damage dealer. Compared to Speedling + Roach, you are a bit more vulnerable against Stalker/Dragoon kiting here. On the other hand you can put a bit more pressure against walloffs. So this style will be a bit better against greedy players and ofc it also adds AA presense.
Hydras only --> This is definitely weaker than in BW, however with smart dronining and good macro, its not impossible to survive on Hydras untill you get Lurkers out. The benefit of staying on 1 unit only is that it allows you to tech faster, however it comes at the expense of either giving up map control or having a very low drone count.
So I see lots of benefits we can obtain by adding Roach at tier 1;
1) Differenaties Sbow from BW/unique feeling of playing Sbow.
2) New zerg styles with different advantages and disadvantages become viable --> Adds more depht to gameplay
3) Gives Vulture a larger role in TvZ mech --> Makes mech more fun vs zerg.
4) Allows us to give Stalker and Dragoon distinct roles vs mech --> Buff Vulture vs Dragoon --> Buff Stalker --> Add in Roach to make PvZ balanced.
5) Allows us to make Zerg a bit more cost efficient vs mech --> Less reliant upon Dark Swarm.
6) Allows us to make early game PvZ less about numbers. Hydras early game vs protooss can kill the protoss easily if they just have a modest army advantage and if toss hasn't cannoned up. Roaches on the other hand is more of a strong larvaefficient unit that isn't particularly good at killing the protoss player.
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Hello friends. I wanted to know if the unit test map "Starbow Tester 2.0" needs an update. In this case I will get an update as soon as possible. If you do not ask me to update the map, I will update the map to the first patch, it will release kabel, with modifies the values of the units.
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Patch up
- Macro mechanics removed because of bugs/editor problems. (No Queen, Chrono boost, Rift, Calldown SCV, Overcharge or Reactor.) The Terran macro mechanic needs a rework. All mechanics need to be better balanced anyway. They will come up in the future again. (Unless we find it super more fun without them.) Orbital command only has Scan now.
- Roach added
- Vulture is Light. (Makes Hydras + Dragoons little worse vs them. Stalkers + Roaches better.)
- Stalkers take 2 less dmg from Vultures via an armor speciality.
- Reaper requires Tech lab.
- Firebat does NOT require Tech lab. (Switched place with the Reaper.. )
Ps. Nothing else is changed with the Stalker.
Ps2. "Kabel, why do you not add a test map?!"
Because we have only 2 scaled Starbow maps up at the moment anyway.
Ps3. Ok, here is a post about the Reaper:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +@Reaper
What are the current balance problems with this unit?
- It comes into the game very early, which is a huge threat vs any race who fast expands. (plays greedy.)
It shall ofc be possible to damage a player who plays greedy. But Reapers do it so well that a few of them can end the game before the 6 minute mark. So its a huuuge risk for P to go Nexus first, if T goes 1-2 Barracks into Reapers.
- It can be massed early, which means that a never ending flood of Reapers can get into the enemy base. (Especially problematic vs Zeg)
Why keep the Reaper at all in the game?
- It is a harassment unit which leads to action quite early in the game
- It benefits from multitasking and is stronger when the opponent is occupied/distracted.
- Its bomb ability is a good way at harassing bases who have heavy static defence
We have seen it happen in a few games already - a bunch of Reapers in the mid game asssults bases, blows up supply depots, picks off workers, run away. Yesterday Kalevi used them together with Banshees for double harassment. I think it is a unit that has high potential to be fun.
Potential solution to balance it:
- Require tech lab.
This accomplishes two things:
1. Makes it harder to mass Reapers.
2. Delays when they can come into play.
It should still be possible to make a couple for scouting info and simple harassment, especially if the opponent plays greedy. If it needs more midgame utility, the bomb upgrade can also give increased movement speed. (For more map presence)
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On October 11 2013 01:07 Laertes wrote:
The point of the roach should be as a surprise combatant. They should be slow enough that getting to the front lines is an issue if they aren't burrowed, when they are burrowed they should be normal speed. We can only theorycraft at this point, let's get out there and figure out what the unknown unknowns are.
Shouldn't we be cautious with 'surprise units' in a Starcraft game? We all know the hatred towards DTs and cloaked banshees, and I'm sure that burrowed roaches will be seen as similar. I think it's only burrowed banelings and lurkers that are universally accepted.
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Keep in mind Roaches are burrowed for a few seconds to boost speed a bit. Then they have a cooldown before they can burrow again.
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It should still be possible to make a couple for scouting info and simple harassment, especially if the opponent plays greedy.
Vulture accomplishes exact same thing now that reaper requires tech lab.
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On October 11 2013 02:29 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
It should still be possible to make a couple for scouting info and simple harassment, especially if the opponent plays greedy.
Vulture accomplishes exact same thing now that reaper requires tech lab.
It's maybe better to have a multi-faceted unit that can also accomplish scouting and simple harassment versus making a unit only for that purpose, that's why I would think that the vulture is a better design than the reaper. However, the reaper micro is pretty fun so maybe it's cool to have in the game.
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EPT
