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High templar storm
Iam curious about this spell.
I just tried it in starbow and broodwar, both on faster speed.
BW is 0.2~ faster than starbow on faster
irl seconds,
bw: 3.1~
starbow: 4.6~
energy upgrades
The one that gives +50 total mana.
With full mana, many spellcasters could cast more relevant spells, hightemplar could cast three storms instead of two
for example.
The best part about this upgrade was that the starting energy increased from 50 to 62, this had an impact.
I would like to atleast see an upgrade that increased the starting energy like this.
Comments?
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I might aswell move on with the core units, since the macro mechanics are on hold due to editor problems.
Stalker
I will first discuss the broader aspects of this unit - how it shall feel, what its role is, what it is suppose to do. I will end this post with a detailed suggestion of how the Stalker can be in the game. (Based on the feedback/ideas from many of you.)
Some general criteria for this unit:
1. Feel different from the Dragoon (In terms of its role, they way its controlled, stats)
2. Useful in all match-ups (Not too narrow)
3. Be a part of interesting relationships / unit dynamics
4. Be mobile & able to harass/have map presence
Ok. lets look closer at it:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +1. If we want the Stalker to feel seperated from the Dragoon, here are some general traits it can have:
- Good dmg vs medium & light units, less dmg vs armored units. (Opposite of Dragoon and fits better for harassment)
- Faster/more mobile
- Fragile / low HP so it can not fight vs anything straight on
- Cheaper cost
- Attack works in different way.
>>>+ Show Spoiler +2 & 3. If we want it to be useful in all match-ups and have good relations with other units, here is how it can look: - PvZ - Good as support vs Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Zerglings. Vulernable vs Lurker, Ultra, Guardian, and potential Roach - PvT - Good as support vs Vulture, Marine, Reaper, Banshee. Vulnernable vs Tank, Spider mine, Marauder - PvP - Good as support vs Zealots and maybe Protoss air units. Vulnerable vs Dragoon, Reaver, Archon. (Keep in mind, I do not talk about hard counters. The Stalkers also offer other forms of utility apart from those relations, for example can single Blink into Tanks for friendly splash damage, can Blink to catch Reaver etc. And they are much stronger vs all workers, compared to Dragoons, which is good for harassment.) What armor class shall the Stalker have?>>> + Show Spoiler +
- If Stalkers are armored, they are hard countered by Marauders, Tanks, Banshees, Hydras and Dragoons.
- If Stalkers are medium, they are still countered by Marauders, Tanks, Dragoons, Roaches (since Stalkers deal low dmg vs them), but Hydras and Banshees are less efficient vs them. (Since both deal less dmg vs medium targets.) Vultures do however deal quite good dmg vs them.
- If Stalkers are light, they are countered by Banelings, Firebats, Vultures, but takes very low dmg from Tanks, Marauders, Spider mines, Hydras and Dragoons.
So I think they should remain as medium armor units. This helps them in the best way to fit into the relations listed above.
<<< ---
>>>+ Show Spoiler +4. If we want the Stalker to be more mobile/have map presence, here are some things to consider: If it shall be able to harass and have map presence, it either needs to be fast, or have access to Blink. Even if Stalkers have Blink or not, they still need an air unit to see up the cliff, so they can Blink inside enemy bases. If Blink comes very late in the game, or is a heavy investment, it will probably be more rare to see Stalkers in play. Potential solutions: - Stalkers can see above cliffs. - Stalkers start with Blink. - Blink is cheaper and/or faster to research. Blink is however an incredible powerful ability. With good micro, Stalkers can win fights they would normally not stand a chance. If they gain a Blink advantage from the start, they need to be much more fragile/weaker. Or make Blink weaker. There is also room for an other form of harass/movement/map presence ability. - Stand still for a few seconds to become cloaked? - Weapon upgrade that allows their attack to pierce through targets? This attack only benefits the Stalker if it actually target fires something, since units normally shoot at the closest enemy anyway. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mQo81WX.jpg) It should probably not deal 100% dmg to all units. But maybe 50% to units in a row. It would add a bit more micro to the unit, and differentiate it in the way its controlled, from the Dragoon. (Who rather shoots a heavy blast at a single target armored unit to maximize damage.) We also have a good projectile model for it already in the game.
"Ok Kabel, sum it up.. What is your suggestion for the Stalker?"
>>>+ Show Spoiler +Cost 100/50 120 total life Medium armor 0 Speed 2.95 Requires Twilight Council* Only differences here to what we already have in Sbow is that total HP is lowered by 20 and requires Twilight instead of Cybernetics core. *Twilight Council cost is reduced from 150/100 to 100/100. BT reduced from 52 to maybe 40. This makes Stalkers able to come earlier into the game, which can be important vs certain build orders/strats. In return, the BT of Zealot charge is increased to even up for this. Blink cost is reduced from 150/150 to 100/100. BT remains ca 166 seconds. Attack damage and range is a tricky thing.Stalker should be good enough vs medium and light units, so it can both be good at harassing AND serve as support unit vs Hydras, Mutalisks, Zerglings, Vultures, Marines, Zealots etc, and be able to take care of some air units. But that damage shall not be so good that they can fight those units straight on easily. >>> + Show Spoiler +It currently deals 14 dmg vs light and medium units, and 75% dmg vs armored. (10,5)
Attack speed 1.5 seconds.
Kills a:
- Drone & Probe in 4,5 seconds. (Dragoon 10 seconds) ------ (3 shots)
- SCV in 6 seconds. (Dragoon 12 seconds) --------- (4 shots)
- Zergling in 4,5 seconds. (Dragoon 8 seconds) -------- (3 shots)
- Marine in 6 seconds (Dragoon 10 seconds) -------- (4 shots)
- Zealot in ca 20 seconds. (Dragoon ca 28 seconds)
- Reaper in 6 seconds (Dragoon 12 seconds)
- Hydralisk in 9 seconds. (Dragoon 12 seconds)
- Vulture in 9 seconds. (Dragoon 12 seconds) <--- Not that large difference actually!
- Banshee in 15 seconds. (Dragoon 28 seconds)
- Mutalisk in 13,5 seconds. (Dragoon 24 seconds) <<< Haha I can go on and on ^^ But then we also have units where the Dragoon is much stronger, like vs Lurkers, Ultras, Marauder, Tank, Dragoon, Archon, maybe Roaches etc. Atm, the Stalkers dmg output is better than the Dragoons vs the right stuff. But one practical problem is that Stalkers are slaughtered by Vultures. Which limits the Stalkers use in TvP, and kinda makes it harder to move out on the map. Maybe is cheaper Blink a way to help with that, since Blink Stalkers vs Vultures are a better fight. But maybe it is not a bad thing after all. Imagine if Stalkers > Vultures in direct combat. Just as Goons. Stalkers can Blink and be Warped in. It would be hard for Terran to deal with them in the late game. Wave after wave of instant reinforcements anywhere on the map who slaughter Vultures. Maybe its fair if Vultures vs Stalkers is quite even? We have some ways to go: - Higher dmg, but lower attack speed. - Even higher dmg vs light units. - Lower dmg but faster attack speed. - Piercering attack that goes through targets. (If Stalkers focus fire at a unit behind.) Personally I would prefer higher damage with lower attack speed, combined with some kind of piercering attack. - It makes each shot more important to micro - Gives more overkill (so huge groups of Stalkers are not as good as smaller groups of Stalkers are) - Makes them worse when standing still and fighting vs other units, since there is longer dead time for the enemy to deal damage between the attacks. (Extreme example is the Reaver who is very vulnerable between its attacks) - Better synergy with Blink. (Blink to a location, BAM, snipe a unit) - Seperates the micro from Dragoons via the piercering attack. (If I am able to even make it in the editor.) Maybe 16-18 dmg per shot, less vs armored, lower attack speed. But still keep quite close to the current DPS we already have in Sbow. Even without the potenail piercering. I will calculate more on this tomorrow. But all in all, it will be a quite cheap, fragile, more mobile unit who will be better at harassing, but still has combat potential as a support unit, with a more differentiated attack from the Dragoon. But will be very bad at taking direct engagements. However, there might be more radical things to do with this unit, to make it really feel and become unique. But in this suggestion, I kept it at a quite familiar level.
Puh, now I wrote down my whole thought process.
Thoughts on this?
Other ideas for the Stalker?
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Spider mines
Did some testing in broodwar.
- The vultures plant much more consistent
- Much easier to plant mines overall
Compared to starbow, its almost night and day
Conclusion, bwvult->starbowvult
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*Twilight Council cost is reduced from 150/100 to 100/100. BT reduced from 52 to maybe 40. This makes Stalkers able to come earlier into the game, which can be important vs certain build orders/strats. In return, the BT of Zealot charge is increased to even up for this. Blink cost is reduced from 150/150 to 100/100. BT remains ca 166 seconds.
What is the logic behind twilight council neccesity for Stalker? Will it be too good in the early game otherwise?
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What is the logic behind twilight council neccesity for Stalker? Higher tech requirement isn't really a way to differentiate it. Instead it is way to balance it, if it is too good in the early game.
That is mostly if there is a buff to Stalkers attack, in form of piercering dmg. Otherwise it might be too strong early. (Just a loose theory though, since no values are determined.)
But I am ofc open to other ways to seperate the Stalker from the Dragoon. That is just one potential way to seperate their attacks and make them useful for different things in different situations.
Other concerns? Flaws in the idea above?
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High templar storm
Iam curious about this spell.
I just tried it in starbow and broodwar, both on faster speed.
BW is 0.2~ faster than starbow on faster
irl seconds,
bw: 3.1~
starbow: 4.6~
energy upgrades
The one that gives +50 total mana.
With full mana, many spellcasters could cast more relevant spells, hightemplar could cast three storms instead of two
for example.
The best part about this upgrade was that the starting energy increased from 50 to 62, this had an impact.
I would like to atleast see an upgrade that increased the starting energy like this.
Comments?
Oh, I thought it was even between the games now.
An upgrade like that might be good yes.
Spider mines
Did some testing in broodwar.
- The vultures plant much more consistent
- Much easier to plant mines overall
Compared to starbow, its almost night and day
Conclusion, bwvult->starbowvult
I fear Spider mines overall acts very differently in Sbow compared to BW.
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I will write some general thoughts about this stalker:
The blink ability, reminds me of the future roach to much. Shouldnt the roach have this trait, that he can kill stuff which other zerg units cant? Burrowboost underneath the ground to snipe some key units or go very close to siegetanks.
That to me, sounds more awesome atleast
Mediumarmor and lowhp, makes him bad versus vultures, unless you buff his damage tremendous.
The blink ability, either makes him underpowered or overpowered. You want good unit relationships, i cant see blink work here.
With blink, the battle either becomes cat or mouse.
With equal range, he will feel like a dragoon to me. Less range, higher range. Will he not feel like a dragoon? Iam not sure.
They still shoot the same. Their shoot is just different statwise, nothing else.
If u want him to be able to harass, why have blink? Why not some more "core" harass abilit like move up/down cliffs. Something that doesnt aid so much in battle?
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I'd like to see Stalkers and Dragoons have extremely different values for all of the following:
Movespeed (plz. why are they the same movespeed as goons. this is required if we want to make them feel and play different)
HP/Shields (more shields than hp, imo, since goon has more hp than shields)
Attack Speed (either much faster than goon [xiphias'? machine-gun idea] or much slower [kabel's idea])
Attack Range (i'd like to see this be very loooooooong. 7 or 8 even)
Model Size (Inner Radius, etc too)
Damage Type (bonus damage etc. we already have this, but i'd like the differences to be more extreme.)
Supply Cost (lower than dragoon/immortal whichever we end up using.)
Mineral:Gas ratio (1:1 or maybe even gas heavy)
everything. different from goons. make the only similarity they have be that they are both ranged ground units.
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The blink ability, reminds me of the future roach to much. Shouldnt the roach have this trait, that he can kill stuff which other zerg units cant? Burrowboost underneath the ground to snipe some key units or go very close to siegetanks.
That to me, sounds more awesome atleast
I will write about the Roach tomorrow, and what I have in mind for it.
Mediumarmor and lowhp, makes him bad versus vultures, unless you buff his damage tremendous.
That is a dilemma yes. Blink micro seems to even out those combats quite a bit.
But maybe it is not a bad thing after all. Imagine if Stalkers > Vultures in direct combat. Just as Goons.
Stalkers can Blink and be Warped in. It would be hard for Terran to deal with them in the late game. Wave after wave of instant reinforcements anywhere on the map who slaughter Vultures.
Maybe its fair if Vultures vs Stalkers is quite even?
The blink ability, either makes him underpowered or overpowered. You want good unit relationships, i cant see blink work here.
With blink, the battle either becomes cat or mouse.
But it also depends on how strong the unit with Blink is. If it is really fragile?
With equal range, he will feel like a dragoon to me. Less range, higher range. Will he not feel like a dragoon? Iam not sure.
They still shoot the same. Their shoot is just different statwise, nothing else.
It will ofc be hard to make Dragoon and Stalker feel super different, since they are two ranged core units with many built-in similarities. But if we manage to seperate them in some relevant aspects, I think it can be enough. Especially if we can make them be microed in different ways, via for example Blink and a new potential attack.
If u want him to be able to harass, why have blink? Why not some more "core" harass abilit like move up/down cliffs. Something that doesnt aid so much in battle?
The Stalker should IMO still have combat potential. Otherwise it becomes just some form of Reaper/pure harassment unit.
If you have any other idea for the Stalker, please present it in as much detail as possible. I am more open to use larger changes with units who are new in Sbow. (And not BW units)
I'd like to see Stalkers and Dragoons have extremely different values for all of the following:
Movespeed (plz. why are they the same movespeed as goons. this is required if we want to make them feel and play different)
HP/Shields (more shields than hp, imo, since goon has more hp than shields)
Attack Speed (either much faster than goon [xiphias'? machine-gun idea] or much slower [kabel's idea])
Attack Range (i'd like to see this be very loooooooong. 7 or 8 even)
Model Size (Inner Radius, etc too)
Damage Type (bonus damage etc. we already have this, but i'd like the differences to be more extreme.)
Supply Cost (lower than dragoon/immortal whichever we end up using.)
Mineral:Gas ratio (1:1 or maybe even gas heavy)
everything. different from goons. make the only similarity they have be that they are both ranged ground units.
But now it seems like they are different just for the sake of being different.
If attack range is 7 or 8, they outrange static defence and Lurkers. Deathballs with Stalkers will be insane.
Supply cost 1?
Faster movement speed would be a nice feature of the unit, but it looks silly when Stalkers are too fast. It will cause problems in PvP if Stalkers are faster than speed Zealots AND have Blink. (So they can not be faster than 3.25, which is barely faster than what they already are. Unless Dragoons are slower to make that difference larger.)
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But maybe it is not a bad thing after all. Imagine if Stalkers > Vultures in direct combat. Just as Goons
Its a terrible thing. Vultures>stalkers,zealots
You want protoss to make stalker? Well he wont if all terran have to do is go pure heavy vultures.
You want more reactionary strategy? This is the wrong way to go.
Stalker bad versus =vult,goliath,tank
If protoss makes stalkers. He will lose in the macrowar tremendous
Also, dragoon doesnt actually hardcounter vultures.
The battle is fun(atleast in bw) where vulture can go spidermine attack versus goons(microbattle forboth). Also, if vultures outnumbers dragoons they win.
Here, vultures just simple amove: 2vult vs 1stalker, they win. 2vult vs 1dragoon, they lose.
But it also depends on how strong the unit with Blink is. If it is really fragile?
Yes, as in cat or mouse. Get it? Either stalker runs because he will lose hard or he fights cuz he will win hard.
The same principle for the opponent. Boring unit relationships
The Stalker should IMO still have combat potential. Otherwise it becomes just some form of Reaper
My intention wasnt to not give him combat potential. BUt blink removes the combat potential or atleast make it worse than it has to be.
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Its a terrible thing. Vultures>stalkers,zealots
You want protoss to make stalker? Well he wont if all terran have to do is go pure heavy vultures.
2vult vs 1stalker, they win.
Its bad if it is so brutal, so mass Vultures can > Stalkers and Zealots.
I do not think that Vultures should slaughter Stalkers. Nor do I think Stalkers should slaughter Vultures, cause that will also be problematic. But if we manage to make Stalkers a bit better vs Vultures at least, so that fight becomes more even, then maybe the relationship will be better. (Since Stalkers are really unefficient vs them atm.) If T is encouraged to mix in Stalkers together with his army, since their damage output is better vs Vultures, compared to Goons, then there is a reason to add them to the army.
Yes, as in cat or mouse. Get it? Either stalker runs because he will lose hard or he fights cuz he will win hard.
The same principle for the opponent. Boring unit relationships
How is that different from speed Zerglings? Either they run cause they will lose the fight hard, or they attack, surround and wins the fight hard. Many mobile units work in this way?
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How is that different from speed Zerglings? Either they run cause they will lose the fight hard, or they attack, surround and wins the fight hard. Many mobile units work in this way?
Difference is zerglings can fight in even trades.
To make stalker even in a fight is very hard cuz blink will fuck it up to badly.
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Zerglings are cheap and you can afford to throw them away, you're encouraged to use them in fights. Zerglings are weak enough that smaller defensive forces or static defense can deal with them, so you're also encouraged to have minimal defenses. It's a balance that favors interesting gameplay I think.
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@ Vulture
Just a quick comment on the Vulture-mine placing. Dirty told me that it seemed placing mines during battles as it seemed that Vultures didn't always place the mine.
I thought that this may be due to the fact that the spidermine-proces being cancelled if units walked into the area where the spider mine otherwould be placed. So I tested it, and turned out I was correct. Can anyone confirm whether it was the same in BW or whether Vultures still could place Mines even if a unit had moved into the area?
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This new Stalker will be quite similar to the hellion right? Both have piercing attack, mobile and quite weak in a straight up battle.
If we look at the hellion in Sc2, its piercing attack shines through in the early game where it adds a lot of micro to the game (for instance nonstimmed Marines vs hellions is quite an interesting battle).
But eventually as the opponents army gets large enough, all you can do with is a move against the opponents flank. The piercing attack simply doesn't matter at that period of the game since you will lose the majority of the stalker if you try to get into position to maximize your total damage output.
It seems natural to assume the same concept will apply to the Stalker, but as it isn't really an option to get early game, it may simply never be really usefull. Its tough to say and I think it needs a lot of editor testings in various situations before we can see how it feels. Obviously it would be really fun if the piercing attack functioned properly, however there are often times large diferences between theory and practice.
But regardless of what happens to the Stalker, I still believe that protoss needs a true early game unit that allows it to fight straight up.
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The new stalker costs 50 gas though, if they are not useful in engagements maybe you're going to end up with 20 stalkers that you used for harassment that will now be a burden to your army yet you can't really replace them because of how much gas you would waste?
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so the stalker is basically an a reaper role unit? costs much gas, harrass and support
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A little late, but I like the way you think around the Stalker. Make something along those lines (and yes, I read the whole post...)
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I don't think the piercing attack is a good idea (for Stalkers) I think it's important that harassment units do not have AOE, even in this form, as it allows them to evaporate a worker line too quickly. Even though it's attack will be the "same" as teh dragoon, I think that is okay, since the way the units will be used is different. For example, In protoss vs Mech, you would never want to engage in the same way with Dragoons and Stalkers, you will want to get your stalkers in a position where they can blink hop the tanks, and absolutely not in the Dragoon line, as they will simply take up space where a dragoon (which does more damage to siege tanks) could fire much more effectively. In other engagements the same holds true, blink is such an important part of stalker combat that it will be distinct from the Dragoon, despite the range being the same and the attack styles being similar. That being said, I wouldn't mind to see a movement speed increase for stalkers (over dragoons) this would allow them to better fit their role as a harassment unit.
However, the general concept behind the stalker seems quite good, and I wouldn't mind to see the cloak after remaining still for a few seconds concept played around with.
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On October 09 2013 18:59 404AlphaSquad wrote:
so the stalker is basically an a reaper role unit? costs much gas, harrass and support
More like Mutalisks. High mobility and strong potential for concentrated fire, but due to being fragile, they tend to do horribly in direct larger engagements. On the other hand they have great flanking potential, and can grant map control due to functioning well in mid sized groups.
I don't like the splash attack though. Seems a bit too tacked on. On the other hand some kind of status effect inflicting shots could be cool. Potentially costing shields to use, but weakening the oppsition in such a way that makes it harder to fight Stalkers that focus fire well.
EDIT: Here is a fun random idea - Stalkers have 4 range. They gain the ability: Gravitic shots. Gravitic shots costs 5 shields per shot while toggled and applies a dubuff that reduces targetted units range by 50% (minimum 1) for 1 second.
The ability isn't too great for kiting (mmm can still land some shots between volleys) but really good for making range dependant units miserable in small fights.
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EPT
