|
@Stalker
Lets continue to build this unit.
Three features of it:
- It should be mobile
- It should be fragile (low HP)
- It should be good vs light and medium, bad vs armored
- Mobility allows it to harass/hit-and-run/map presence.
- Low HP makes it bad in direct engagements without support from Zealots.
- Good vs light and medium makes it better for harassment.
It should come from the Gateway/Warp gate, and either require Cybernetics core or Twilight Council.
All the above critera helps to seperate it from the Dragooon.
The questions are:
- What type of mobility advantage should it have?
(Blink + Warp in atm. Stalkers can not have too much higher movement speed since that makes them faster than speed Zealots. Which is problematic.)
- How can we add some other form of micro to its attack, to distinguish it from the Dragoon?
(The piercering idea might be problematic, so I am indeed open for other solutions too.)
|
Let it have blink from the start or very cheaply (but should require twilight counsel to be built). I think blink is the defining feature of the stalker. Not it's movement speed. That is the mobility of the stalker. If blink is too strong, then nerf the movement speed. Blink is not too strong if the unit is fragile just as the mutalisk is not too strong even though it can fly because it is fragile.
I see no need for the "shoot trough stuff" shot.
In terms of class. The stalker is in the shakuras "class" with the dark templar. It should feel more like that. Don't misunderstand, it should be quite different from the dark templar, but it is more like a dark templar than a dragoon.
|
Potential solution for Stalker with more focus on the Blink aspect:
Blink is indeed a very defining feature between Stalker + Dragoon.
It greatly helps to seperate the way they are microed and the situations where they are useful.
Without Blink, Stalker + Dragoon feel similar in terms of micro and usefulness. (Just different dmg vs units)
So starting with Blink gives Stalkers a built-in unique micro feature.
If we want to take advantage of that fact, here is a suggestion:
- Stalker starts with Blink.
- Requires Twiligt council
- Twilight Council cost increased from 150/100 to 200/150.
- Twilight Council build time increased from 52 to 60-70 seconds.
- Zealot Charge cost reduced from 150/150 to 100/100. Maybe BT reduced a little bit. (To keep the total cost and timing for when Zealot speed can come into the game. Perhaps should Templar Archives also be lowered in BT to compensate for this.)
Blink is a dangerous ability though. Blink all-in, or Blink abuse into snowball effects should not happen easily.
(By snowball effect I mean that Stalkers keep flooding into the enemy base and the enemy can not kill them to keep the numbers low. So Stalkers just grow and grow and can then A-move to finish it.)
- If Stalkers require Twilight council, its at that point the production of Stalkers can start. Which delays any early Stalker all-in. Longer BT of Twilight council also gives more time for the opponent to scout it.
(Compare it to now when P can have 10+ Stalkers when the Blink research finishes.)
- If Stalkers have no range upgrade, they become less efficient when in large balls. (Since they can´t shoot over each other as efficiently.)
So maybe they can remain at starting range 5, but with no upgrade.
- The other races must have ways to deal with this. Protoss can get Dragoon, Reaver, Archon vs them. Terran has Marauder, Tank, Spider mine and high numbers of Vultures. Zerg is a bit more tricky though, since Blink Stalkers deal with Hydras quite good. (Which means that Z must either pump loads of speedlings, rely on Spine Crawlers or tech to Lurkers.) But if the Roach gets added, they get a unit that can deal with them.
Stats can look something like this:
Cost 100/50
Total life 120 (20 less than now.)
Medium Armor 0
Speed 2.95
Range 5
Build time 40 seconds (As now)
Their current damage per second in Sbow seems to be reasonable.
Details:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +It currently deals 14 dmg vs light and medium units and 10,5 dmg vs armored. Attack speed 1.5 seconds.
(In BW damage terms, I call that damage "Burst damage". 100% vs light and medium, 75% vs armored. Might need a better name ^^)
Kills a:
- Drone & Probe in 4,5 seconds. (Dragoon 10 seconds) ------ (3 shots)
- SCV in 6 seconds. (Dragoon 12 seconds) --------- (4 shots)
- Zergling in 4,5 seconds. (Dragoon 8 seconds) -------- (3 shots)
- Marine in 6 seconds (Dragoon 10 seconds) -------- (4 shots)
- Zealot in ca 20 seconds. (Dragoon ca 28 seconds)
- Reaper in 6 seconds (Dragoon 12 seconds)
- Hydralisk in 9 seconds. (Dragoon 12 seconds)
- Vulture in 9 seconds. (Dragoon 12 seconds) <--- Not that large difference actually!
- Banshee in 15 seconds. (Dragoon 28 seconds)
- Mutalisk in 13,5 seconds. (Dragoon 24 seconds)
It is however possible to move up and down the scale with attack speed.
If we instead have 16 vs light, 16 vs medium, 12 vs armored, Attack speed 1.75, we have the same DPS.
Or we can have 12 vs light, 12 vs medium, 9 vs armored, Attack speed 1.25, same DPS.
And so on.
It all depends on if it shall be fast or slow shooting unit, with all the advantages/disadvantages that come with it.
To sum it up: The Stalker is differentiated from the Dragoon by having a larger focus on Blink as a part of its design.
Which also helps it to be useful in other situations and for other purposes. Obviously must exact balance stats be modified later on.
Thoughts on this solution?
|
Sounds good. They could/should have longer cooldown than the SC2 stalker on their blink, and thus lings can deal better with them.
I feel that adding roach to the game solves zerg problems too easily if that makes any sense. Countering speedlot plays or blink stalker play should not just be:"Make a bunch of roaches and u'r fine". I removes some of the finesse in ZvP I think.
|
I feel that adding roach to the game solves zerg problems too easily if that makes any sense. Countering speedlot plays or blink stalker play should not just be:"Make a bunch of roaches and u'r fine". I removes some of the finesse in ZvP I think.
I agree. It is cool if we manage to find ways for new stuff to be in the game. (Since new stuff gives room for more exploration, strategies, meta game, build orders, combinattions and so on.) But if new stuff has a severe impact on things that are already awesome from BW, then its not good. If it for example turns out that Roaches makes PvZ more boring by ruining fun aspects of it, then something is wrong.
But I will write a post later on with what I have in mind for the Roach.
|
- How can we add some other form of micro to its attack, to distinguish it from the Dragoon?
I don't think this is really the issue here. It will always have unique micro due to the blink ability. However, the issue is that it doesn't have a true role (in which situations are you supposed to get it?) since Dragoon is such a strong all-round unit. My suggestion is Vulture as light as that will imply that Dragoon + Zealots have a clear weakness in the eaerly game vs these units;
- Vs Hydralsks
- Vs Vultures
- Vs Marines
Thus, it opens up the role for a Stalker vs bio, vs mech and vs zerg.
Adding piercing attack or some other types of special micro isn't really needed IMO.
Further the idea of putting the Twilight requirement on the Stalker removes any kind of early game role to it. This means the following;
1) Dragoons have to be strong vs Vultures (Stalkers won't see usage here)
2) Protoss opening variability vs zerg is reduced due to the strenght of Hydralisks. Since zerg can outproduce protoss with Hydralisks, he needs to defend with cannons rather than with units (less action).
3) Marines will be really strong against protoss in the early game.
My opinion
The only reason Stalker doesn't have an unique role is due to A) Dragoons too good vs Vultures and B) Stalkers too bad vs Vultures.
Buf Stalker + Vulture with light armor, and we don't need all these super complicated solutions to obtain 1) Unique micro and 2) Unique role for the Stalker.
|
How about stalkers have low HP and relatively high shields that regenerate 2-3x faster than normal (including when they start regenerating -- if that was not changed already in Starbow) but overall low sustainability? Something like 80-100 shields and 40-50 HP. Reduce blink cooldown to ~5 seconds and reduce blink range to something low ~4. Damage will probably have to be slightly tweaked, but the defining feature of this stalker change is the reduced blink cooldown and reduced blink range.
The idea is to constantly use stalkers since they can regenerate shields but not to simply overmake them as they will be crushed as the game progresses. Opportunity cost of not using stalkers all the time.
|
The only reason Stalker doesn't have an unique role is due to A) Dragoons too good vs Vultures and B) Stalkers too bad vs Vultures.
The Stalker seems to have a useful role in PvP and PvZ.
The problem is PvT, and to some degree the similarities between Stalker + Dragoon. (Before Blink is researched)
If Vultures are Light, they 4-shot each other in TvT.
Hydras looses hard vs them.
Vultures will still kill Stalkers quite hard. (As long as they do not have Blink)
If Stalkers are armored instead, Vultures become weaker vs them. But then also Hydras + Dragoons kill Stalkers really hard. Which causes problems for the Stalker in the other match-ups.
Edit: Hm Light armor might be good with some small modifications. I will do some testing
|
The problem is PvT, and to some degree the similarities between Stalker + Dragoon. (Before Blink is researched)
I think its important to seperate unique role from unique micro. Stalker doesn't get an unique role just becasue it research blinks. It only gets an unique role when it serves a purpose that other core units doesn't.
Blink adds unique micro (in all matchups), but not an unique role. Quite a difference there.
Edit: Hm Light armor might be good with some small modifications. I will do some testing
Yeh so, I believe if Vulture is light armor, then we can choose between two variations;
Variation 1: Stalker armored --> Stalker counters Vultures, but Hydralisks then makes Stalker kinda bad vs zerg.
Variation 2: Add low-range Immortal at robo as I suggested + Small Stalker buff --> Stalker can hold ground against Vulture untill Immortals are out. Immortal + Stalker > Vulture. Stalker then also gets really good vs Hydralisks --> Roaches need to be strong to compensate here. Since Vultures get buffed here early game, we can increase the research time of its upgrades to balance early game a bit.
This solution is my prefered as it gives protoss a straight-up battle unit which I believe they need as slowzealots are a bit too weak early game.
|
This is probably not ideal, but you could also focus on having the stalker work out vs one race only, and then go from there.
|
@If Vultures are Light, as a way to make Stalker + Dragoon have better roles in TvP
If we change Vultures to Light from Medium, this is how it affects unit relationships:
- Dragoon kills a Vulture in 8 shots instead of 6.
- Hydralisk kills a Vulture in 16 shots instead of 12.
- Baneling kills a Vulture in 3 hits instead of 4.
- Firebat kills a Vulture in 5 hits instead of 10.
- Marauder kills a Vulture in 7 shots instead of 5.
- Sieged Siege Tank kills a Vulture in 3 shots instead of 2.
- Unsieged Siege Tank kills a Vulture 6 shots instead of 4.
- Vulture kills a Vulture in 4 shots instead of 8.
The most significant ones are Hydra vs Vulture, Dragoon vs Vulture, Vulture vs Vulture and Tank vs Vulture.
In BW, it is crucial that Hydras > Vulture. Otherwise Vultures dominate Zerg early units. With Vulture as Light, that fight will now be even. BUT if Z gets the Roach, this will not be a huge issue. (Since Z now has an answear vs Vultures early)
If Dragoon are weaker vs Vulture, we do indeed open up more room for the Stalker as a damage dealer towards Vultures.
Vulture vs Vulture will now be fast-paced. 4 shots! It is a bit ugly, but I think we can live with it. It does not really change any relationship. It only makes combat faster between those 2 units.
Tanks will still beat Vultures hard.
To sum t up: If Vultures are Light, Dragoons will have less dmg output vs them, and we open up the need for the Stalker as a part of the army in TvP. Vultures will however be better vs Zerg ground units, but if the Roach is added, this should be nullified. I can not see any other unintended consequenses with this.
It also requires that Stalkers are available at Cybernetics core. Otherwise early Protoss are more vulnerable vs Marines + Vultures.
Two other dilemmas with the Stalker:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +1.Stalker still feels like Dragoon version 2. 2. Vultures will still have good dmg vs Stalkers. (Atm that fight is dominated by Vultures.) If Stalker gains heavy armor, that problem is solved. BUT it creates new dilemmas in PvP and PvZ. (Where Hydras + Dragoons slaughter Stalkers too hard.) One potential solution to both those problems: - Stalker starts with a weak version of Blink. Range 3. Cooldown 15-30 seconds. - Blink upgrade at Twilight council adds more range and reduces the cooldown. This immediately gives unique micro to the Stalker, compared to the Dragoon. It also gives a micro edge in combats. Fights vs Vultures seems more even now, especially if Dragoons are part of the combat. Stalkers can blink and hide behind Goons, Vultures must focus fire etc. Overall, this kind of weak Blink micro seems to be quite fun. (When I try it in the editor.) P still needs vision to see into enemy bases, via an air unit. So they can not just Blink into bases early in the game. (If they do, the cooldown is long so they can not escape easily.) This required that Stalkers remain quite fragile and do not have too long attack range. (To avoid balls of them being too good.) Another potential solution in the Stalker vs Vulture relationship is to add some kind of passive ability to the Stalker. It receives reduced damage from units who hover, or something like that. (Vulture, Reaper, Archon, Workers) It is quite ugly though.  I use two solutions like this already: Marauder always deal 4 extra dmg vs mechanical units. Hydralisks deal 2 extra dmg vs biological air units. I do not love stuff like this. But if it helps to create better gameplay, and is important for the balance/dynamics, then its for the greater good.
@Comments on comments regarding Vulture Light & Stalker
>>>+ Show Spoiler +I think its important to seperate unique role from unique micro. Stalker doesn't get an unique role just becasue it research blinks. It only gets an unique role when it serves a purpose that other core units doesn't.
Blink adds unique micro (in all matchups), but not an unique role. Quite a difference there. Very true. In PvZ they have a purpose: Support vs Lings, Hydra, Muta and the potential to harass. In PvP they have a purpose: Support vs Zealots and air units. In PvT they have a narrow purpose: Good vs Marines, Reaper, Banshee, SCVs. But it is quite rare to see those units from Terran. So if Stalker becomes better vs Vulture, it gets a better purpose. Variation 2: Add low-range Immortal at robo as I suggested + Small Stalker buff --> Stalker can hold ground against Vulture untill Immortals are out. Immortal + Stalker > Vulture. Stalker then also gets really good vs Hydralisks --> Roaches need to be strong to compensate here. Since Vultures get buffed here early game, we can increase the research time of its upgrades to balance early game a bit.
This solution is my prefered as it gives protoss a straight-up battle unit which I believe they need as slowzealots are a bit too weak early game. I would not mind seeing an extra unit at the Robotics facility. But if the Immortal shall be in the game, it can NOT be a flat Dragoon version 3. That would break my heart. I would prefer if something more happened with it.
|
Vultures used to be too good vs Hydralisk so be careful there. Vultures counter lings very well and should not be too good vs hydralisk. Remember Puccini builds...
Also, I'm up streaming IF PEOPLE JOIN!!!!!!!!!!!! The new map has gotten better also!
(Don't make me have to spend the evening speedrunning Braid...)
I like solution 1 btw. Let stalkers start with weak blink and add an upgrade for it.
|
Weaker blink is the right way to go, atleast i think so. More fun to micro for protoss and the opponent.
I suggested some other blink methods before.
For example-> stalker gets hit, his blink gets a low cooldown. Stuff like that
One way to make stalker better vs vultures is have his shield very low.
Like 10shield, 130hp
This stalker will than be even slightly better vs hydralisk but not as big impact there.
Vult do 20damage to shields compared to 10damage to stalkers health
|
Vultures used to be too good vs Hydralisk so be careful there. Vultures counter lings very well and should not be too good vs hydralisk. Remember Puccini builds...
Yea, I just had horrible flashbacks about that. Vultures shall absolutely not be too insane. (As they were back in the days. Both Hydra and Vultures values were very off.) Zerg did not have any early ground unit who could deal with Vultures!
But we must indeed be very careful!
Also, I'm up streaming IF PEOPLE JOIN!!!!!!!!!!!! The new map has gotten better also!
I will come online. No evening work until Friday! 
Weaker blink is the right way to go, atleast i think so. More fun to micro for protoss and the opponent.
I suggested some other blink methods before.
For example-> stalker gets hit, his blink gets a low cooldown. Stuff like that
One way to make stalker better vs vultures is have his shield very low.
Like 10shield, 130hp
This stalker will than be even slightly better vs hydralisk but not as big impact there.
Vult do 20damage to shields compared to 10damage to stalkers health
Yes, this weak Blink feels fun. Like a dance.
It is also possible to do something extra with Blink, if needed.
Lower shield might be good yes, as a way to balance Vultures vs Stalkers.
|
|
|
In BW, it is crucial that Hydras > Vulture. Otherwise Vultures dominate Zerg early units. With Vulture as Light, that fight will now be even. BUT if Z gets the Roach, this will not be a huge issue.
I happen to think this is a fantastic thing. IMO Hydra vs Vulture is quite boring and I feel like the combo of Mutalisks and Hydralisks is what makes TvZ mech less exciting, as they both kinda hard counter the Vulture. However, the Roach is much more of a softcounter to the Vulture, so overall, I hope this will result in more Vulture usage in TvZ mech.
One potential solution to both those problems:
- Stalker starts with a weak version of Blink. Range 3. Cooldown 15-30 seconds.
- Blink upgrade at Twilight council adds more range and reduces the cooldow
It could be fun to make Stalkers start with blink, but I also think it is likely to create unintended consequences (e.g. too good vs Hydralisks and Marines early game.
Maybe it could just be an upgrade at cybercore? That's kinda a middleground. I also like the idea of making Hydralisks start with range upgrade to compensate for the fact that zerg now needs to invest in extra tech (both roach tech and hydra tech).
Nevertheless, I fear that Vultures may still be too good vs Dragoons and Stalkers (even if they have early acces to a "weak blink"), as Dragoons aren't that tanky either against Vultures. I still think a variation of this idea could work even better with my Immortal suggestion.
Another potential solution in the Stalker vs Vulture relationship is to add some kind of passive ability to the Stalker. It receives reduced damage from units who hover, or something like that. (Vulture, Reaper, Archon, Workers) It is quite ugly though.
I like this if you don't plan on introducing Immortal at robo tech. Its a gimmick indeed, but I think this is isn't particularly worrisome. Most people don't really need to know all the damage rules anyway. They just play the game and learn the unit relationships that way.
But if the Immortal shall be in the game, it can NOT be a flat Dragoon version 3.
I thought my suggestion was quite different? It had;
- Low range
- Lower mobility (low enough so it feels different from Dragoons, but not so low that it drags down the army too much and makes attacking/moving out on the map too difficult).
- Much more buffy than Dragoon
- Flat damage (unlike Dragoon and Stalker which both are specialized)
It won't be a type of unit that is particularly micro intensive, however it will be a unit that is in there for 2 reasons 1) Balance protoss vs Vultures and 2) Allow protoss to take straight up fights as long as it is supported by Stalkers and Dragoons.
|
Summarize the Stalker
Here is a summary of what we have discussed, and what might be a realistic solution to make it fit into all match-ups, AND become seperated from the Dragoon:
- Stalker requires Cybernetics core.
- Costs ca 100/50 (or vice versa)
- Fragile in HP (100-140)
- Good dmg vs light & medium, not good vs armored.
- Starts with an early weak Blink ability. (Or early Cyber-core upgrade) (Blink details can be found in the post above)
- Can maybe upgrade stronger Blink
- Attack range is lower so they are not untouchable by enemy units.
The early acess to the weak Blink gives unique micro and mobility, compared to the Dragoon. (Early weak Blink is also fun to play with.) Both the damage, the fragile HP and the better mobility is the opposite of the Goon.
The general use of the Stalker is as a harasser/skirmisher, and as a back-up fire support unit. It will be bad at engaging enemy units directly, due to its low HP. It will be efficient vs the following units:
- PvZ - Good as support vs Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Zerglings. Vulnerable vs Lurker, Ultra, Guardian, and potential Roach.
- PvT - Good as support vs Vulture, Marine, Reaper, Banshee. Vulnerable vs Tank, Spider mine, Marauder.
- PvP - Good as support vs Zealots and maybe Protoss air units. Vulnerable vs Dragoon, Reaver, Archon.
And ofc much better vs Workers, compared to Dragoons. (Better for harassment.)
One crucial relationship is Vulture vs Stalker. Atm in Sbow, Vultures are superior vs them, plus Dragoons kinda take care of Vultures anyway. One solution to this is to make Vultures Light. This makes Goon dmg worse vs them, but Stalker dmg better. Thus we see the need for Stalkers in the army. It will also make Hydras little worse vs Vultures. But if the Roach gets added, Z still has a good way to deal with them.
Vultures damage will however still be strong vs Stalkers. If the early access to Blink is not enough (for combat micro), then maybe Vultures just need to deal slightly less dmg vs Stalkers. (Via a hidden buff.) I use the same solution to make Hydras better vs Mutalisks. (Since there would be large problems if I changed Mutalisk armor.) It is not a pretty solution, but it would get the job done.
Another solution is to bring back a potential Immortal to Robo bay, as Hider suggests.
So, this was a summary of the conclusions regarding the Stalker. (Based on the last 2 pages of discussion.) Haha I feel like a secretary ^^
Any flaws with this concept?
Ps. If anyone has missed the discussion, all detailed info can be found in the last 2 pages. Here is the post with details about what happens if Vultures are light: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=444#8871
|
Viking is actually really really fun with its super high movement speed and low single target damage vs armored units. Its a unit with a super super high skill cap. Its definitely OP now though.
Some possible adjustments;
- Remove splash and give it 8 + 2 vs light instead. This will make it worse vs Mutalisks, but due to its insane harass strenght it doesn't actually need to be particularly cost efficient vs Mutalisks. You can simply afford to invest into both Vikings and Goliaths at the same time and still have an acceptable gruond army. It won't be as cost effective as Goliath/Sv's/Tanks, however much more mobile --> Creates a tradeoff.
- Reduce default movement speed of Viking but give it movement speed upgrade at tech lab instead.
|
This makes Goons worse vs them, but Stalkers better.
I think this needs to be tested in the editor. Im not sure the Goon is good enough to be a buffer unit to the Stalker. Also we risk making super quick Stalker openings too strong vs zerg.
|
One Goon dies in 29 shots from a Vulture. (It takes 50.75 seconds for 1 Vulture to kill 1 Dragoon.)
80 shield is killed in 4-shots from a Vulture.
100 life, 1 armor, is killed in 25 shots since Vultures deal 5 dmg vs armored units,
The main threat is from Spider mines who are planted next to Goons.. If Goons deal low dmg vs Vultures, its more important to mix in Stalkers.
Also we risk making super quick Stalker openings too strong vs zerg.
If we are careful, I think we can avoid it.
The concept of early Blink is to give seperate micro/features/feeling to the Stalker. (So it does not feel like a weaker Dragoon that is microed in the exact same way.)
If Blink is weak enough, maybe range 3, 15-30 sec cooldown, I don´t think it will be unkillable vs Zerg. But it will be enough to increase their efficiency in combat/harassment/micro potential, even vs units it is normally bad against. (To avoid hard counters.) If the attack range is kept at a sane level, maybe 4-5, then I don´t think will be harder to stop Stalkers than what currently is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
