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Just a brief comment on Hiders suggestion:
I am not gonna do huge changes to BW units like merging Goliath and Viking.
Yes, it might be fun.
But I find it as huge unnecessary editor work with an enormous impact on the balance and existing unit relations.
(For example Carrier vs Goliath, although Carrier micro can need an improvement)
We have Dropships if T want to add mobility to the Goliath.
I am however more open to ideas regarding stuff in the game that is not from BW, like Sentinel and Viper spells, or late game rarely used units, like the Devourer, or other ideas to the Viking.
@Terran macro mechanic
Potential way to balance it:
- Unit number 2 in the production queue is always produced at ca 50%, no matter what unit type that is.
So if Two Tanks are being produced, the first Tank will be produced in 44 seconds. The other Tank will only have been trained for 22 seconds. Then when that Tank is unit number 1 in production, it is trained at full speed again.
If needed can we have a different effect on different structures:
- Both Barrack units are always trained at 100%
- The first Factory and Starport unit is trained at 100%, the second at 50%.
(Or whatever number)
I will see if this is possible to even do.
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I do like the current role of the Viking through. Mass muta switches are dangerous and the nature of terrain's production mean that they are more vulnerable to that than Protoss or Zerg
Muta tech switch threat threat making Vikigns a neccesity? What do you base that on? Have you seen any non-sc2'ish game where that is a real issue?
Can I ask you if you have seen how badly Irradiate rapes Mutalisks in Sbow?
. am not gonna do huge changes to BW units like merging Goliath and Viking.
Yes, it might be fun.
But I find it as huge unnecessary editor work with an enormous impact on the balance and existing unit relations.
But we already have editor animiations from the time it was experimented with during Xiph and Dec time as leading the mod, right?
In terms of balance, what exactly are you worrying about? I honestly feel its somewhat of the contrary as early access to Viking with splash has a significant effect on balance (zergs can't drone up when opening Mutalisks).
Which theroretical scenarios can you imagine where Goliath with transformation mode will have an effect?
Personally, I think this change will have a relatively small effect on balance relative to many of the other suggestions in the test map.
We have Dropships if T want to add mobility to the Goliath
Transformation makes it much easier to be mobile and doesn't take up cargo space.
I assume you added the VIking initially (instead of Valkyrie) cus you thought the transformation thing was cool as it adds extra harass options.
But problem is that it is mostly a gimmick for the Viking as it performs too poorly in ground mode + it is dominated as an anti-air unit. Thus, you rather not get Vikings at all atm..
Giving it to the Goliath instead, will add a ton of freedom/creativity to the unit which I believe will be really awesome. Due to its 4 second transformation time, it won't be a heavily imbalanced/overused ability with a huge impact on balance. But it will be an ability which good players can take advantage to make their harass play even stronger in the mid and late game and/or overcome terrain constraints.
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@Viking discussion
Since you brought up the Viking, just some things about the role it is suppose to have.
(Keep in mind, it must actually NOT be the Viking that does this.)
Some criteria:
- It is the Terran fast moving cheap air unit. (Just as P has Corsair, Z has Mutalisk)
- It should have fast move speed
- It should be able to do some kind of harassment/have map presence
- It should be strong vs air units
Exactly vs what types of units should it be strong?
- Goliath is the single target anti armored.
- However, Wraiths in BW was also single target anti armored. Valkyres were the anti-splash unit vs smaller units.
So it needs to do at least one of those two things.
If we want to follow the BW pattern, T should at least have 1 kind of single target anti-armored unit. (Goliath)
Plus some kind of way to deal with clumped up air units. (Potentially Viking)
But if the Viking is stronger vs clusters of units, it can not also be too strong vs single target units.
Which means that T has no way to snipe and intercept specific air units.
Which can be good and bad. One positive thing with that is that its harder to completely shut down Warp Prism + Reaver drop, which 1 Wraith had potential to do in BW. But it is also harder to fly in and pick off Arbiters, Vipers or other important air units.
Anyways, there are two "easy" approaches:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +1.
- Bring back Wraith
- Make the Viking kinda like the Valkyre in BW (Or potentially even bring back the Valkyre model)
The question is though if both Wraith and Banshee can co-exist. (Since I find the latter a very important and fun unit.)
This would however help us to better mimic the fundamentals of Terran air vs the other races.
2.
- Let the Viking be the new Wraith with some kind of splash attack, but quite low damage vs single target air units.
Its harassment potential lies in fast speed + the ability to transform. (The concept kinda as it is now, but with better stats.)
- The Vikings missile attack can become dodgeable. (So it does not always hit, kinda like Mutalisks attack work)
- Viking can get a "Launch Missile" button that allows them to fire a volley of missiles at target location in the air.
(They basically attack target air location with their normal attack. A couple of seconds cooldown. Missiles move at a decent movement speed. Air combats with dodgeable projectiles..)
Both those things can help to add more micro into air combats, and make Vikings splash less hard at shutting down Mutalisk play. (At least it requires more skill/micro to do it well.)
Two positive things with having a cheap accessible splash unit:
- Air combats become more micro intensive. (Since clumping up increases the DPS density, but it also increases the vulnerability.) Even 2 Vikings vs 2 Vikings, or 2 Vikings vs 2 Corsairs, or 2 Vikings vs a couple of Mutalisks, requires splitting and focus fire to maximize the damage output of the splash attacks.
- It punishes mass clumped up casters + dropships/overlords much easier. (Punishes deathball play, to use some exaggerated words.)
The balance of the current Viking is probably quite skewed though, since they dominate vs Mutalisks very hard.
We also have a Viking upgrade as a way to delay any potential too early strength of Vikings.
Comments on comments regarding Viking
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
But we already have editor animiations from the time it was experimented with during Xiph and Dec time as leading the mod, right?
In terms of balance, what exactly are you worrying about? I honestly feel its somewhat of the contrary as early access to Viking with splash has a significant effect on balance (zergs can't drone up when opening Mutalisks).
Which theroretical scenarios can you imagine where Goliath with transformation mode will have an effect?
Personally, I think this change will have a relatively small effect on balance relative to many of the other suggestions in the test map.
Look, it all comes down to my time. (And everyones time who is involved in this, no matter if it comes to playtesting, working in editor, helping with design & balance work.) A lot of stuff in Sbow and BW could surely be super duper more fun. But Goliaths work. It is a solid unit with good unit relationships. Stuff that already works well should not be reworked even more. Otherwise I will never ever finish this project. Yes, that is a boring answear. But I have to be realistic. Its the same reason I say no to introducing invented new units, add melee-attack-mode that can be turned on/off to Hydras, a transformation mode to Dragoon or other quite radical ideas. I can´t specifically say that scenario A or B will have balance problems. But I do say that Goliaths who fly will surely impact the game in ways we can not imagine. Both in good and bad ways. Even the fact that I reduced the Dragoon DPS by 12% seems to regenerate many balance concerns! But problem is that it is mostly a gimmick for the Viking as it performs too poorly in ground mode + it is dominated as an anti-air unit. Thus, you rather not get Vikings at all atm.. If Vikings suck, are boring, imba, then I rather do something with that specific unit than reworking stuff that is already fine.
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Oh well,
regarding tonight, I am still looking at ways to balance the Terran macro mechanic. (Editor problems limits me in what is possible or not..) It would have been better if I added the mechanic to a test map, but I was so eager so I did the modifications in the original mod-file. >.< But I will add some kind of temporary balance fix for tonight at least, so Terran is not as broken.
My priority list:
1. Fix and balance macro mechanics decently well
2. Take a second look and dig deeper into the core units (specifically Dragoon, Stalker, Reaper, potential Roach and that dynamic)
3. Then I advance up the tech trees and pin-point specific spells & units who needs to be fixed/balanced/replaced/completed/improved/scrapped. (So we all can come with suggestion on what to do with them)
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On October 09 2013 00:21 Kabel wrote:
Oh well,
regarding tonight, I am still looking at ways to balance the Terran macro mechanic. (Editor problems limits me in what is possible or not..) It would have been better if I added the mechanic to a test map, but I did the modifications in the original mod-file. >.< But I will add some kind of temporary balance fix for tonight at least, so Terran is not as broken.
My priority list:
1. Fix and balance macro mechanics decently well
2. Take a second look and dig deeper into the core units (specifically Dragoon, Stalker, Reaper, potential Roach and that dynamic)
3. Then I advance up the tech trees and pin-point specific spells & units who needs to be fixed.
How about a general 10% to 20% build time increase for all terran higher tech units?
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How about a general 10% to 20% build time increase for all terran higher tech units?
Almost everything from BW in Sbow have the "correct" build times from BW. Which is an important part of the balance.
To keep it easier, I would prefer if all macro mechanics were "bad" enough that their impact on the build time is not too dramatic.
For example, if the strength of Chrono Boost, Overcharge and Nurturing Swarm/Inject is fairly similar, then it will be even between the races, and hopefully will all build times be able to remain.
If Overcharge is muuuch stronger than Chrono boost (which it is now), then Terran needs completely new build values. And that probably causes more balance work.
However, some modifications might need to be made. Especially since we have units/upgrades in Sbow that are not in BW. But I would prefer if we can keep as much BW stuff as intact as possible.
So if we can keep Overcharge unique, but be closer to the other mechanics in balance, I think that would be easier.
(Unless anyone has any better idea ofc)
Ps. Thank you GamanNO for keeping the wiki updated!
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Just a thought, but I find the SC2 dragoon to feel completely off. Anyone else feel that way?
I think partly because it is always twitching, but also it just feels so slippery, non-unique, and just "weak". I actually feel like the immortal model feels more like a BW dragoon, despite looking different.
Having said that, I think changing the walking animation may "fix" it. Something just feels quite off about it. Turning off idle twitching would be nice, too. ><
(A lot of SC2 units feel this way, to be honest.)
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Viking/Goliath merge
When he is in airmode, why not make him like the valkyrie than? Good vs light air units, bad vs armored?
100/50/2 cost, just like the goliath.
With reduced stats since valkyrie cost 250/125/3 in broodwar. With no base-armor he is weak versus corsairs from protoss side.
If he gets the vulnerability->Micro and scourge, can work even vs "critical number"
(For example Carrier vs Goliath, although Carrier micro can need an improvement)
Why would this change with goliath merge with viking? And without carrier micro, this relationship is gone
The reason to make wraiths over goliath was to get a mobile anti-armored airunit(since goliath walk on ground).
Viking right now shuts down mutas to easy and to hard. If u want a unit that is good vs light air units, he needs a vulnerability or he will become a corsair x2 = Muta/scourge wont work at all if this is the case
@viking
It should be able to do some kind of harassment/have map presence
Deponds on how he is supposed to harass. Doesnt necessarily have to be like the muta,right?
Corsairs kill overlords. Wraith is good at defending vs unspeed warpprism(and to kill overlords vs zerg).
Valkyries were used mostly when terran went mech. It was rarely used as an harass unit which made him unique.
Would be boring if every airunit needs to be able to harass
Anyway, this criteria will fit nicely with the transform thing: Makes him unique from anyother airunit or else he ends up beeing corsair x2 or muta x2. One way to make this happen is reduce cost of viking and stats(assuming you copy valkyrie), to make use of his transform more
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But Goliaths work. It is a solid unit with good unit relationships. Stuff that already works well should not be reworked even more.
Ok I just see it a bit differently here. I don't view this as really changing with how the Goliath interacts with units (as its stats are the same and the AA in transform mode isn't particularly strong). Instead, I see this as a way to A) Make it more fun and B) Solve the Viking issue by combining it with the Goliath.
But I agree with the notion though that we shouldn't try to make changes to existing units that work well if they can have a theoretical impact on balance.
- It is the Terran fast moving cheap air unit. (Just as P has Corsair, Z has Mutalisk)
- It should have fast move speed
- It should be able to do some kind of harassment/have map presence
- It should be strong vs air units
My criteria list is somewhat different. First of all it IMO isn't a neccesity that is fast and cheap. It just needs to be mobile enough to fullfill the map presense/harassment/"do something other than defend" criteria.
But I would add three more criterias;
- It needs to have an unique role
- It must not be efficient as a harass-preventer
- It must not break the BW balance.
These are super super challenging to all fulfill at the same time. I have to say that I think the most time-efficient thing to do is simply to get rid of it and make sure other units can fulfill its role. While your 2nd solution is indeed quite awesome, it just overlaps quite a bit with Irradiate.
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Hmmm, air borne mobile goliath kills any sort of carrier micro.
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On October 09 2013 02:33 decemberscalm wrote:
Hmmm, air borne mobile goliath kills any sort of carrier micro.
Not if it deals 8 damage to them ^^
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@Viking/Goliath
I might sound like a party-pooper since I say no to so many potential fun ideas.
Below is what I have tried to do with Starbow for a long time:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mzAP0Lx.jpg) Now I instead try to keep it within a boundary: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QE63wHS.jpg)
Obviously new stuff will have an impact on the balance. It is unavoidable, no matter how for example the Viking ends up being.
I just prefer to not rework things that already works fine, like the Goliath, to spare us all from additional editor, balance, design and playtesting work.
But I agree with the notion though that we shouldn't try to make changes to existing units that work well if they can have a theoretical impact on balance.
Yea. At least not if that impact is too strong or too radical.
My criteria list is somewhat different. First of all it IMO isn't a neccesity that is fast and cheap. It just needs to be mobile enough to fullfill the map presense/harassment/"do something other than defend" criteria.
But I would add three more criterias;
- It needs to have an unique role
- It must not serve as a harass-preventer
- It must not break the BW balance.
Good points.
These are super super challenging to all fulfill at the same time. I have to say that I think the most time-efficient thing to do is simply to get rid of it and make sure other units can fulfill its role. While your 2nd solution is indeed quite awesome, it just overlaps quite a bit with Irradiate.
There is indeed an overlap between any Terran splash air unit and Irradiate, at least vs Zerg. But on the other hand, it worked in BW, with Valkyre and Irradiate? Led to some diverse strategies/build orders/usage? Irradiate is also limited to only affect Zerg air units.
Why would this change with goliath merge with viking? And without carrier micro, this relationship is gone
I hope there is a way to fix Carrier micro. Maybe not exactly as in BW, but at least better than the standard SC2.
I heard a rumor that Carrier micro in HoTS got improved in a patch recently? Didn´t Liquid Tyler post a video a while ago here on TL where he explained how to add BW micro to the Carrier?
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Goliath already is a strong anti-air unit, don't wanna make it supermobile as well. This goes againt the concept of mech imo.
stuff that could go wrong:
-mech terran vs zerg: clear map of overlords without fear of muta/scourge, harassing mineral lines and still being a strong unit in the main army. This means zerg will have to turtle more against zerg, which is opposite of what should be happening.
-warp prism play: warp prism play already doesn't work well in the early-midgame, goliaths with airmode will make terrainplay with the warp prism nonexistant.
-carriers: heavy carrierplay might be punished even harder than it is now. Reaction to the carriers is heavy goliathplay, now immagine if they go airmode for a sec and just rape the interceptors with mass splash.
also the argument about SV countering muta too hard: that is rather a problem with smartcasting: micro-ing vs one SV is doable because you get the time to ditch the bad muta (if it wasn't then no one would go muta in bw either). Smartcasting makes you unable to countermicro because the effort to split vs spam click r is not balanced.
valkyrie is still the 'correct' counter to mass muta play. I completely agree with gossen and dirtybag on this topic.
Some idea for filling in the gap with the scout:
I kinda miss the disruption web and its uses, I think it's a cool spell and has many uses throughout the game (especially mass static defense). Giving it to the scout would obviously be overpowered, because they can shoot on the ground and completely nullify ground AA, meaning you can just mass them.
However, what if we give the corsair back disruption web and move lift to the scout? I'm not really sure if it would be balanced (mainly vs T mech), but then again, the current version of lift has a heavy cooldown and is hard to abuse. It would also really help out the corsair as its harass vs zerg is nullified too easily imo: he can do nothing vs spores (which can be uprooted and planted somewhere else) so overlords have safe spots where you can just let them chill and not care about them, queens die really slow, lift has a cooldown which means you need a lot of corsairs to really do any damage vs zerg's economy, zerg knows you invested in corsairs so he can just replace drones without fear of any real pressure.
So my point is, it is too easy to hardcounter corsairs and their main use lies in the surprise effect.
Compared to the bw corsair: zerg needs to fight this actively, static defense can be temporary disabled with disruption web giving them time to harass overlords (which actually does hamper the zerg economy, supplyblocking zerg is more painful than killing a couple drones), which means zerg actually has to get out some hydra's to fend of the corsairs and he must do this actively. This also has less a 'snowball' effect, starbow corsairs can suddenly get a huge number and kill any popping hydra's - BW corsairs can be fought with few hydra's and you can micro against disruption web.
All in all i feel bringing back the BW corsair would improve the pvz MU.
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Edit: I disagree somewhat with the Arbiter and scout ideas, they are not as good as some of the other suggestions for the reason that I think transformation spells aren't quite the way to go. I think that, right now, the best way to deal with scouts would be to give them the ability to dodge attacks of the much bigger battle cruiser. Basically, if one scout faces down one battle cruiser it all comes down to how good the scouts micro is. As for the devourer, I really think we could just buff their attack speed and call it a day.
Its not really a transformation idea. It just gives them a strong AA attack at an energy cost. But I agree its not a particularly good approach. It was just a quick "solution".
For the Scout to make sense to have it in the game, it needs a bit else than just AA vs armored. Since I don't think the spellcaster-approach is desireable, I thought of a different role; As late game air harass unit? Sentinels/Corsairs are strong for early game harass purposes, but as terran eventually builds enough turrets, Sentinels become more of an army-spellcaster in the later game.
However, we could give the Scout an upgrade at Fleet Bacon which increases its damage vs buildings. This way a medium sized group of Scouts could run away run the map and harass bases even if they were "protected" by Turrets/Spores.
I think that could be quite fun if it works as intended.
There is indeed an overlap between any Terran splash air unit and Irradiate, at least vs Zerg. But on the other hand, it worked in BW, with Valkyre and Irradiate? Led to some diverse strategies/build orders/usage? Irradiate is also limited to only affect Zerg units.
I am ok if both of them countering Mutalisks if they just had a significant different impact on how the game would proceed afterwards.
For instance zerg openings Mutalisks --> Does a bit of damage, drones up --> Eventually terran gets either SV's or Vikings out.
If he gets SV's --> He is a bit more cost efficient vs Lurkers and Mutas, however a lot more immobile.
If Vikings --> Less cost efficient, but Vikings give terran a strong harass/mobility threat.
That approach could be pretty cool if we get it right. But its definitely not a bullet-proof/easy solution.
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micro-ing vs one SV is doable because you get the time to ditch the bad muta (if it wasn't then no one would go muta in bw either)
Wrong. Muta arrives much earlier than SV, therefore muta is viable even if SV hardcounters muta.
@corsair
he can do nothing vs spores
one or two spores is not of any help really against 7+ corsairs. They still melt overlords.
zerg knows you invested in corsairs so he can just replace drones without fear of any real pressure
Have you watched bisu play? He always uses corsairs and do terrible damage with them and other units aswell.
Compared to the bw corsair: zerg needs to fight this actively, static defense can be temporary disabled with disruption web
Web was 95% never used at all in any matchup.
Only time web is used is if protoss goes reaver+corsairs versus zerg.
Doesnt mean we cant tweak that spell but you have got the wrong picture of it atm
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@Terran mecro mechanic balance
I have contacted the trigger maker with some questions, over at sc2mapster.com. It might take a while before I get a reply.
For tonights patch, a Barrack, Factory or Starport with Overcharge on it will produce units at 70% speed.
(So for example two Tanks will not finish at 44 seconds)
I will try to look for a better balance solution tonight. If there is no good way to balance it, maybe we need to rework Overcharge some more. Or find any other kind of solution. (Or potentially even scrap all macro mechanics.)
I still let Overcharge in the game though, mainly so those of you who are online tonight can try how it feels.
If it is still too imba, we can play some games without macro mechanics at all, just to compare it. Or something.
I also lower the Dragoon range upgrade time by 20 seconds. It should now be closer to BW.
No other changes.
I upload patch now.
@Protoss Stargate units
I will look closer on them once I get there in the work process. But maybe could Graviton beam fit better on the Scout. Hmm..
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I also lower the Dragoon range upgrade time by 20 seconds. It should now be closer to BW
It should be 146 seconds
I heard a rumor that Carrier micro in HoTS got improved in a patch recently? Didn´t Liquid Tyler post a video a while ago here on TL where he explained how to add BW micro to the Carrier?
Yes, and that change is what we have right now in starbow (they still didnt change it to bw micro, blizzard that is)
Led to some diverse strategies/build orders/usage?
Well, first things first. Valkyrie was underused.
Was it because of the bug? You know the bug?-> BW is not very technical game, so with enough stuff on the screen valkyrie were the first unit to stop shoot of all units.
Second, valkyrie got used sometimes with mech. I think the reason for this is since mech is so gas heavy, having both valkyrie and SV is hard so valkyrie is imo the better option here over irridaite if u go mech
Oh btw, the valkyrie+mech stratetegy arrived very very late in bw. I think it was until 2007(?)
The first pro who used it was Fantasy, oh boy the strat he did was completely new and he owned his zerg opponent.
Iloveoov were the one helping to come up with the strategy
Stuff that already works well should not be reworked even more. Otherwise I will never ever finish this project
A valid concern, and also a good point
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For the Viking, I think the mobility-approach could be tested as long as we put the FC requirement on it (so you can't use it to prevent early Mutalisk harass). With the current movement speed upgrade + fast transformation it should be fast enough to harass opponent (I think).
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On October 09 2013 03:03 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +micro-ing vs one SV is doable because you get the time to ditch the bad muta (if it wasn't then no one would go muta in bw either) Wrong. Muta arrives much earlier than SV, therefore muta is viable even if SV hardcounters muta. @corsair one or two spores is not of any help really against 7+ corsairs. They still melt overlords. Show nested quote + zerg knows you invested in corsairs so he can just replace drones without fear of any real pressure Have you watched bisu play? He always uses corsairs and do terrible damage with them and other units aswell. Show nested quote +Compared to the bw corsair: zerg needs to fight this actively, static defense can be temporary disabled with disruption web Web was 95% never used at all in any matchup. Only time web is used is if protoss goes reaver+corsairs versus zerg. Doesnt mean we cant tweak that spell but you have got the wrong picture of it atm
Hmmz, I partially agree. I think part of the reason why disruption web wasn't used much is because of the metagame. Zerg will not counter corsairs in the same boring way as in starcraft 2 (just making spores and preventing action from happening unless toss suicides corsairs) because the disruption web can deal with them and spores cannot countermicro vs disruption web, however hydra's can => hydra is standard answer for corsair, resulting in disruption web not being used (although i think if disruption web is implemented well then there can be a microdance with disruption web vs hydra's, given that there is no smartcasting)
But as you said, little tweak to the bw spell could make it work.
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Valkyrie versus viking
To show you the difference.
Valkyrie:
Damage: 6x8 explosive, aoe (air only)
Cooldown: 3.75 sec
Cost: 250/125/3
Hp: 200, 2armor
Tech: Armory, starport+techlab
- When his first missile is fired, he needs to stand in place
until they all have been fired(Around two irl seconds on faster in bw)(Not fastest)
- Versus light its 50% damage=24
- In small numbers, need support. Can reach a critical
number, just like corsairs(dont know what that number is)
viking
Damage: 8x2, aoe (air only)
Cooldown: 2sec
Cost: 150/100/2
Hp: 125
Tech: Starport
- Shoots all missiles almost instant, then free to move
- Normal damage=16 vs everything
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EPT
