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[A] Starbow - Page 441

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
October 08 2013 01:22 GMT
#8801
Err don't mean to disappoint but I haven't played SC2 in 6+ months lol
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
October 08 2013 05:10 GMT
#8802
Well, apparently you have some weeks to practice now

Would be awesome for this community if you and LaLush both were willing to do a show-match ones we feel Starbow is close enough to completion. I'd cast it for sure XD
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Profile Joined December 2010
Denmark697 Posts
October 08 2013 06:53 GMT
#8803
@LaLush's reactor idea: I like it. I couldn't find a way to balance the production rate between buildings without increasing the energy cost, but you seen to have nailed it. producing the second unit at a 50% rate means that you gain 1/2 of a unit from this boost instead of a complete unit. It can even be expanded a bit with Barracks doing 100%, Factories 60% and Starports 40% speed or something like that. This could balance the usage to how expensive the general units from these structures are, although I think this way of balancing is a bit clumsy.
Go try StarBow on the Arcade. TL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440661
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9447 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 07:31:41
October 08 2013 07:30 GMT
#8804
An easier way, which I know is possible to do, is to make Barrack, Factory and Starport train units at different speed. For example, if you drop Overcharge on the Barrack, 2 units are produced at 100% speed. If you use Overcharge at a Factory, 2 units are produced at 75% speed? Or all units in all structures are produced at 75% speed? It is still faster to have 2 units at 75%, than it is to have 1 unit at 100%. (for example)


Could definitely work if you can make this. I would actually go with less than 75% at factory and Starport. If you do it perfectly, it is 3.5 times stronger when used on Siege Tanks than CB used on Dragoons.
Obv as game progresses you can't use it perfectly, but early game you can, and it is in the early game where the exact strenght of timings matters very much.
I think something like 60% on Factory tech, 50% on Starport tech would be better
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
October 08 2013 08:01 GMT
#8805
On October 08 2013 16:30 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
An easier way, which I know is possible to do, is to make Barrack, Factory and Starport train units at different speed. For example, if you drop Overcharge on the Barrack, 2 units are produced at 100% speed. If you use Overcharge at a Factory, 2 units are produced at 75% speed? Or all units in all structures are produced at 75% speed? It is still faster to have 2 units at 75%, than it is to have 1 unit at 100%. (for example)


Could definitely work if you can make this. I would actually go with less than 75% at factory and Starport. If you do it perfectly, it is 3.5 times stronger when used on Siege Tanks than CB used on Dragoons.
Obv as game progresses you can't use it perfectly, but early game you can, and it is in the early game where the exact strenght of timings matters very much.
I think something like 60% on Factory tech, 50% on Starport tech would be better

I think different numbers on factory and starport should be a last resort, it's not like siege tanks and thors are less powerful than vikings or medivacs. If the numbers are the same it's cleaner design.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Parcelleus
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia1662 Posts
October 08 2013 08:35 GMT
#8806
Hows the numbers of players for this mod ? easy to get a game ?

I ask as Im looking for other RTS experiences.
*burp*
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Profile Joined December 2010
Denmark697 Posts
October 08 2013 09:32 GMT
#8807
On October 08 2013 17:01 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 16:30 Hider wrote:
An easier way, which I know is possible to do, is to make Barrack, Factory and Starport train units at different speed. For example, if you drop Overcharge on the Barrack, 2 units are produced at 100% speed. If you use Overcharge at a Factory, 2 units are produced at 75% speed? Or all units in all structures are produced at 75% speed? It is still faster to have 2 units at 75%, than it is to have 1 unit at 100%. (for example)


Could definitely work if you can make this. I would actually go with less than 75% at factory and Starport. If you do it perfectly, it is 3.5 times stronger when used on Siege Tanks than CB used on Dragoons.
Obv as game progresses you can't use it perfectly, but early game you can, and it is in the early game where the exact strenght of timings matters very much.
I think something like 60% on Factory tech, 50% on Starport tech would be better

I think different numbers on factory and starport should be a last resort, it's not like siege tanks and thors are less powerful than vikings or medivacs. If the numbers are the same it's cleaner design.


No Thors in the game

Still, the main concern about this is the impact it has on Vultures and... nothing else really. All other units from these two structures have such high costs that it makes sense to boost them less than Barracks units.
Go try StarBow on the Arcade. TL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440661
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 09:34:04
October 08 2013 09:33 GMT
#8808
On October 08 2013 17:35 Parcelleus wrote:
Hows the numbers of players for this mod ? easy to get a game ?

I ask as Im looking for other RTS experiences.



If you log on in the evening (EU time) it's usually people there on most days. Do not just open a map and "create a game". Then you'll sit there for a week. Rather goto the chat channel: "Starbow" (not group). You'll find people there to play with (for the most time).

I'll be playing tonight! (About 8 pm CET)
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Parcelleus
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia1662 Posts
October 08 2013 09:36 GMT
#8809
On October 08 2013 18:33 Xiphias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 17:35 Parcelleus wrote:
Hows the numbers of players for this mod ? easy to get a game ?

I ask as Im looking for other RTS experiences.



If you log on in the evening (EU time) it's usually people there on most days. Do not just open a map and "create a game". Then you'll sit there for a week. Rather goto the chat channel: "Starbow" (not group). You'll find people there to play with (for the most time).

I'll be playing tonight! (About 8 pm CET)


Thanks Xiphias ! xD
*burp*
Izerman
Profile Joined May 2013
Sweden99 Posts
October 08 2013 09:40 GMT
#8810
On October 08 2013 18:36 Parcelleus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 18:33 Xiphias wrote:
On October 08 2013 17:35 Parcelleus wrote:
Hows the numbers of players for this mod ? easy to get a game ?

I ask as Im looking for other RTS experiences.



If you log on in the evening (EU time) it's usually people there on most days. Do not just open a map and "create a game". Then you'll sit there for a week. Rather goto the chat channel: "Starbow" (not group). You'll find people there to play with (for the most time).

I'll be playing tonight! (About 8 pm CET)


Thanks Xiphias ! xD


im gonna be shameless and even promote the stream : www.twitch.tv/kanban85 or www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow
if youre not in the mood of playing..

maybe kind of cruel time differences.

I love every suggestion about the macro mechanics.
Though. i think you guys discussed it earlier but i think there was a difference in mining time between races?
protoss had a tad faster probes and zerg has simply more etc etc.

wouldnt that be a thing to maybe try to replicate?
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 10:38:55
October 08 2013 10:37 GMT
#8811
It also turns out that this:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Mining

Is not correct. There was a mining difference but it was not as large as this suggest according to people on the SC2BW thread. I am not sure how much it was, but I am certain that it was not much and not something we want to throw in there. I am confident that BW metagame would still be the same if it the mining rate was the same for all races.

Thanks Izeman Also. It's only www.twitch.tv/SC2_Starbow that does the Starbow streaming atm. Kanban85 channel is currently reserved for Braid speed-running and other non-RTS games.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 10:51:02
October 08 2013 10:48 GMT
#8812
@mining
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955&currentpage=436#8720
graph
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Fluctuations at the higher ends are due to chance as seen in tests done by Lalush, Xiphias and I.
Parcelleus
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia1662 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 10:56:01
October 08 2013 10:55 GMT
#8813
On October 08 2013 18:40 Izerman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 18:36 Parcelleus wrote:
On October 08 2013 18:33 Xiphias wrote:
On October 08 2013 17:35 Parcelleus wrote:
Hows the numbers of players for this mod ? easy to get a game ?

I ask as Im looking for other RTS experiences.



If you log on in the evening (EU time) it's usually people there on most days. Do not just open a map and "create a game". Then you'll sit there for a week. Rather goto the chat channel: "Starbow" (not group). You'll find people there to play with (for the most time).

I'll be playing tonight! (About 8 pm CET)


Thanks Xiphias ! xD


im gonna be shameless and even promote the stream : www.twitch.tv/kanban85 or www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow
if youre not in the mood of playing..

maybe kind of cruel time differences.

I love every suggestion about the macro mechanics.
Though. i think you guys discussed it earlier but i think there was a difference in mining time between races?
protoss had a tad faster probes and zerg has simply more etc etc.

wouldnt that be a thing to maybe try to replicate?



Thanks Izerman ! xD
*burp*
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9447 Posts
October 08 2013 11:03 GMT
#8814
On October 08 2013 17:01 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 16:30 Hider wrote:
An easier way, which I know is possible to do, is to make Barrack, Factory and Starport train units at different speed. For example, if you drop Overcharge on the Barrack, 2 units are produced at 100% speed. If you use Overcharge at a Factory, 2 units are produced at 75% speed? Or all units in all structures are produced at 75% speed? It is still faster to have 2 units at 75%, than it is to have 1 unit at 100%. (for example)


Could definitely work if you can make this. I would actually go with less than 75% at factory and Starport. If you do it perfectly, it is 3.5 times stronger when used on Siege Tanks than CB used on Dragoons.
Obv as game progresses you can't use it perfectly, but early game you can, and it is in the early game where the exact strenght of timings matters very much.
I think something like 60% on Factory tech, 50% on Starport tech would be better

I think different numbers on factory and starport should be a last resort, it's not like siege tanks and thors are less powerful than vikings or medivacs. If the numbers are the same it's cleaner design.


Starport units have higher BT which mean they benefit more from BT than most factory units.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
October 08 2013 11:28 GMT
#8815
On October 08 2013 20:03 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 17:01 Grumbels wrote:
On October 08 2013 16:30 Hider wrote:
An easier way, which I know is possible to do, is to make Barrack, Factory and Starport train units at different speed. For example, if you drop Overcharge on the Barrack, 2 units are produced at 100% speed. If you use Overcharge at a Factory, 2 units are produced at 75% speed? Or all units in all structures are produced at 75% speed? It is still faster to have 2 units at 75%, than it is to have 1 unit at 100%. (for example)


Could definitely work if you can make this. I would actually go with less than 75% at factory and Starport. If you do it perfectly, it is 3.5 times stronger when used on Siege Tanks than CB used on Dragoons.
Obv as game progresses you can't use it perfectly, but early game you can, and it is in the early game where the exact strenght of timings matters very much.
I think something like 60% on Factory tech, 50% on Starport tech would be better

I think different numbers on factory and starport should be a last resort, it's not like siege tanks and thors are less powerful than vikings or medivacs. If the numbers are the same it's cleaner design.


Starport units have higher BT which mean they benefit more from BT than most factory units.

Well, you could always increase the build time of some units if it turns out that they benefit strongly from the new macro mechanic. (the battlecruiser for instance)
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9447 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 12:55:03
October 08 2013 11:37 GMT
#8816
So assuming we get macromechanics fixed and reaper removed, I guess it is time to look forward. Here is my list of areas where Starbow still need improvement;

- Protoss core range units + Roach --> I discussed solutions in the previous page
- Ghost --> Shock not working as intended
- Medi healing --> can't heal when it moves, problematic vs protoss
- Sentinel vs zerg --> its useless vs zerg
- Viper --> abduct poorly designed and breed UP
- Queen --> No decsion/build order variety here.
- Viking/Guardian/Irradiate --> Overlapping roles + bad for balance.
- Scout --> Only usefull as AA vs armored.
- Baneling --> UP + overlaps with Lurker

What changes should accomplish

+ Show Spoiler +

A) Unique roles for all units - less overlapping.
B) Increased viability of all units in all matchups
C) More reactionarybased micro rather than "1-second micro".
D) More real battles instead of "runaway"-stuff.
E) Overall, more action and multitasking.


Below are my suggested changes.

Ghost

+ Show Spoiler +
I suggest we remove the slow-thing from Shock and instead increase range to 10 (or so). This will make it a lot better against immobile targets like Siege Tanks and Reavers and less good vs Dragoons/Stalkers.
It will also add more remicro as the slow-thing kinda makes it impossible for otherwise mobile units to retreat.

I also suggest we add a second ability - otherwise Shock will just be mass spammed as there is no opportunity cost. I suggest we experiment with the Railgun-straight line attack as I think Dirtybag brought up. At a cost of 75 energy, I imagine a ghost could activate the Railgun and he would fire a straight-line attack (that goes through all targets) at a range of 8 (or so). Ghost cannot move while using the Railgun.


Medi Healing


+ Show Spoiler +

To nerf Stalker/Dragoon kiting vs bio, I suggest we give Medis stim again, but make it drain 0 HP from the Medi.


Sentinel

+ Show Spoiler +

Sentinel atm. is useless vs zerg, but I think two new changes can help that.
1) Give it an avoidable Phase Missile that works like Seeker Missile. Perhaps it could be slightly harder to avoid than the HOTS version though. This will make it much better vs Queens.
2) Hydras are indirectly nerfed due to Stalker buff --> Zergs mixes in more Roaches vs protoss --> Sentinels better vs zerg.

Nullsphres range is bugged atm and could use some work (it goes off sometimes when 8range goliaths shoots at it, even though it only has 5 range. Also there may be a problem with its splash damage.

Alternatively, I suggest we increase activation range of Nullsphre from 5 to 8. But it takes 2 seconds for the Nullsphre before it fires the shot. During those 2 seconds it "reveals" it self in the same way as a Widow Mine does. Thus, while it is still cloacked, you can see it "uncloak" before it fires the shot.

This adds two new types of micro; 1) You can kill it before it fires the shot with range 5 units. 2) You have time to micro away the unit that is in the front of your army (as that is the likely target of the nullsphre).


Viper

+ Show Spoiler +
I like that Viper has an anti-mech spell in Abduct, but I don't like the design of it for two reasons;
1) It adds no remicro for opposing player.
2) It is too much about dragging the opponent down before the battle occurs (which is kinda boring), rather than incentivizing real battles (which is fun).

I suggest we make the following changes to Abduct;

- Abduct range increased from 9 to 11.
- The abduct-process is slowed down a lot. I expect that it should take roughly 2 seconds for the Viper to move the unit away. During this proces, the Viper cannot move.
- The abduct-thing is targetable. It has 10 HP, but you need to manually target it.

This will make it worse in prebattes, as you then easily can kill the abduct thing (since nothing else is going on typically). However during battles it will become much much more challenging to kill it.

Breed also need a buff.



Viking/Goliath


+ Show Spoiler +
As discussed previously, the Viking is such a difficult unit to get correct. It seems like it will always just be bad for gameplay or just overlap quite a bit with Goliath/SV's.

Along with Dirty, I tought of a new suggestion where we A) Clean up the game (less overlapping units), B) Add something that has the potential to be awesome. Here it is;

- Remove Viking
- Give Goliath an air transformation (Viking mode)
- When Goliath is in flying mode (Viking mode), it has a weak AA. 6 range, moving shot, 14 damage vs light, 8 vs armored/medium (or so).
- Possibly also make Goliath produceable from Starport. However, when it is produced out of the Starport, it comes in the flying (Viking) mode.
- When Goliath is flying it has movement speed of 3
- Transformation proces takes 4 seconds.

Atm. you can't really do a whole lot with Goliaths. You have to play defensive with them and keep them with your main army. However, the ability to fly around with Goliaths, assist dropships or simply harass the opponent a bit, could add a new level to the game. On the Viking, the transformation thing is mostly just a gimmick, since the Viking isn't very good in ground mode. However, the Goliath is better on the ground mode and thus landing it (rather than having it in the air) will be the standard play.

Besides leading to more fun gameplay, this (if it works as intended) also cleans up the game as it removes a unit that doesn't really have any unique role atm (the Viking).


Guardian/Irradiate

+ Show Spoiler +
I think its better if the Defiler gets anti-spell block instead of the Devourer. This should be a single-target mechanic that blocks/remove Irradiate/other spells. To kill Guardians + Defilers, you will likely need a combo of air-Goliaths and ground-Goliaths


Scout/Arbiter

+ Show Spoiler +


Problem with the Scout (and Devourer) is that I can't really think of any way to give it (them) any other purpose than AA vs armored. It can't be a spellcaster as Sentinels are the early "cheap spellcaster" and Arbiters are the "expensive spellcaster". IMO there is no real middleway for a Scout here. Further, it is very easy to make the Scouts spells OP since it is so mobile. Basically, I really believe it would be benefical for the cleanness of the mod to find a way to remove it while still giving protoss an answer vs tier 3 air units.

One potential solution may be to remove it and make the Arbiter the counter to anti-air armored?

E.g. what about an Ability where the Arbilter goes into AA-air mode. This mode costs 100 energy to access and lasts for 30 seconds.
When activated, it gains an 8 range AA attack with 25 damage + 10 vs Armored


Baneling


+ Show Spoiler +
Let's do the simple thing here and remove it. It doesn't work with BW econ and will probably always overlap with Lurker + lings.
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 12:40:17
October 08 2013 12:30 GMT
#8817
--- Nuked ---
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
October 08 2013 12:42 GMT
#8818
+ Show Spoiler +
As discussed previously, the Viking is such a difficult unit to get correct. It seems like it will always just be bad for gameplay or just overlap quite a bit with Goliath/SV's.

Along with Dirty, I tought of a new suggestion where we A) Clean up the game (less overlapping units), B) Add something that has the potential to be awesome. Here it is;

- Remove Viking
- Give Goliath an air transformation
- Give Goliath a weak AA when it is flying. 6 range, moving shot, 14 damage vs light, 8 vs armored/medium (or so).
- Possibly also make Goliath produceable from Starport. However, when it is produced out of that facility, it comes in the Viking model.
- When Goliath is flying it has movement speed of 3
- Transformation proces takes 4 seconds.

Atm. you can't really do a whole lot with Goliaths. You have to play defensive with them and keep them with your main army. However, the ability to fly around with Goliaths, assist dropships or simply harass the opponent a bit, could add a new level to the game. On the Viking, the transformation thing is mostly just a gimmick, since the Viking isn't very good as ground unit. However, the Goliath is better on the ground mode and thus landing it (rather than having it in the air) will be the standard play.

Besides leading to more fun gameplay, this (if it works as intended) also cleans up the game as it removes a unit that doesn't really have any unique role atm (the Viking).


So like it would be easier to ditch the Goliath and align it's stats with the Viking. We can't give the goliath a "flying" animation, it cannot be done. We can give the Viking the stats of a goliath through.

I do like the current role of the Viking through. Mass muta switches are dangerous and the nature of terrain's production mean that they are more vulnerable to that than Protoss or Zerg. This is also one of the reasons why missile turrets are so potent in SC2. Thus it makes good sense to have a unit that is accessible and a very decent counter to mutalisk. If anything this new reactor is a nerf to Vikings, since you generally want to produce stronger units with that. I don't really see the need to change anything regarding that right now.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9447 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 12:48:12
October 08 2013 12:47 GMT
#8819
On October 08 2013 21:42 Sumadin wrote:
Show nested quote +
+ Show Spoiler +
As discussed previously, the Viking is such a difficult unit to get correct. It seems like it will always just be bad for gameplay or just overlap quite a bit with Goliath/SV's.

Along with Dirty, I tought of a new suggestion where we A) Clean up the game (less overlapping units), B) Add something that has the potential to be awesome. Here it is;

- Remove Viking
- Give Goliath an air transformation
- Give Goliath a weak AA when it is flying. 6 range, moving shot, 14 damage vs light, 8 vs armored/medium (or so).
- Possibly also make Goliath produceable from Starport. However, when it is produced out of that facility, it comes in the Viking model.
- When Goliath is flying it has movement speed of 3
- Transformation proces takes 4 seconds.

Atm. you can't really do a whole lot with Goliaths. You have to play defensive with them and keep them with your main army. However, the ability to fly around with Goliaths, assist dropships or simply harass the opponent a bit, could add a new level to the game. On the Viking, the transformation thing is mostly just a gimmick, since the Viking isn't very good as ground unit. However, the Goliath is better on the ground mode and thus landing it (rather than having it in the air) will be the standard play.

Besides leading to more fun gameplay, this (if it works as intended) also cleans up the game as it removes a unit that doesn't really have any unique role atm (the Viking).


So like it would be easier to ditch the Goliath and align it's stats with the Viking. We can't give the goliath a "flying" animation, it cannot be done. We can give the Viking the stats of a goliath through.

I do like the current role of the Viking through. Mass muta switches are dangerous and the nature of terrain's production mean that they are more vulnerable to that than Protoss or Zerg. This is also one of the reasons why missile turrets are so potent in SC2. Thus it makes good sense to have a unit that is accessible and a very decent counter to mutalisk. If anything this new reactor is a nerf to Vikings, since you generally want to produce stronger units with that. I don't really see the need to change anything regarding that right now.


Goliath has Viking-mode when it is flying - Just different stats.
Deleted User 97295
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1137 Posts
October 08 2013 13:07 GMT
#8820
--- Nuked ---
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