EPTPvP , why 4gate is unstopable ? - Page 4
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darkevilxe
Canada346 Posts
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lasershark
United States49 Posts
i've had it done to me several times in 2800+ masters league pvp matches. i moved my zealot up the ramp as far as i could... and tried to warp in a zealot right above his FF and that didn't work either... | ||
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
On January 16 2011 23:10 emythrel wrote: ... your enemy has vision of the ramp, which means they can warp in on it... Emythrel explained rather clearly why this isn't a bug, simply the current state of the game design. if you can see the ramp, you gain vison on the ramp. With vision and power, well you can warp-in. you warp in near the top of the ramp, gain vision of highground... and the there you go. Tyler states it can be held even with 2 gates, which suggests that weakers players can learn to do so with the standard 3  Regardless, it's actually not a bug, and while blizzard could techinically 'fix' this it would be like having grass/smoke at the bottom of every ramp and have siginifcant effects in all matchups.... my gut instinct is that I would stop playing zerg if I couldn't even see the units on a ramp without air support, but I'm not gonig to bother to think it all the way through. Edit, props to those who are posting details on how to defend it, as obviously anyone wanting to play p is going to have to learn | ||
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AzurewinD
United States569 Posts
On January 16 2011 23:10 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I've stopped 4gate plenty of times with 2gate robo and 3gate stargate. The force fields are for splitting his army, like force fields are almost always used. And you have a very narrow passage to defend, so you can be successful without superior numbers, because all your units attack simultaneously when an enemy unit comes up the ramp, but all enemy units cannot attack simultaneously, and cannot focus fire. Did anybody read this? The reigning TSL champ just chimed in with his tactic for stopping a 4 gate and it seems like nobody payed any mind. No seriously. I just got done reading that, scrolled down, read the following posts, and it seems like some just ignored what Tyler just said, continuing with "4 GATE IS IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE I DO <insert flawed tactic here> AND THEY STILL WIN" without even bothering to develop an effective counter argument to Tyler's approach. No wonder there's such a hubbub around pros not wanting to read the strategy forums. Nobody listens. Watch his stream sometime to see it in action. | ||
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
On January 17 2011 03:33 AzurewinD wrote: Did anybody read this? The reigning TSL champ just chimed in with his tactic for stopping a 4 gate and it seems like nobody payed any mind. No seriously. I just got done reading that, scrolled down, read the following posts, and it seems like everyone just ignored what Tyler just said, continuing with "4 GATE IS IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE I DO <insert flawed tactic here> AND THEY STILL WIN" without even bothering to develop an effective counter argument to Tyler's approach. No wonder there's such a hubbub around pros not wanting to read the strategy forums. Nobody listens. There are only few dozens among the hundreds if not thousand of TL posters that reads through all the garbage posts. I just read Tyler's explaination and I believe he also said something similar when he was commentating someone else's streams on Steppes that the toss could've expo'd since getting out of the ramp had a big advantage for the toss containing the other toss. This is just a similar case. Tyler's post summed it all up and I didn't bother to read the rest since the rest either agrees or says something similar or it's garbage that does not help people with the problem of defending a 4gate. I don't know how it goes in the sc2 strategy as I haven't been there for 3-4 months now or so. | ||
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AzurewinD
United States569 Posts
On January 17 2011 03:41 shannn wrote: There are only few dozens among the hundreds if not thousand of TL posters that reads through all the garbage posts. I just read Tyler's explaination and I believe he also said something similar when he was commentating someone else's streams on Steppes that the toss could've expo'd since getting out of the ramp had a big advantage for the toss containing the other toss. This is just a similar case. Tyler's post summed it all up and I didn't bother to read the rest since the rest either agrees or says something similar or it's garbage that does not help people with the problem of defending a 4gate. I don't know how it goes in the sc2 strategy as I haven't been there for 3-4 months now or so. Yeah I agree. Very good point. I guess I just feel like some sort of vocal affirmation of "protip knowledge absorbed" might go some way in motivating pros to post more good advice like Tyler did. | ||
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S.O.L.I.D.
United States792 Posts
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On January 17 2011 03:09 Backpack wrote: Anyone who thinks 4gate is dumb needs to stop 14 pooling or going 3 rax. Those builds are too easy and everyone does them. It's a build, get over it. People make a distinction between when something is imbalanced and when something is just stupid/boring. Tossing a fair coin to determine a winner is "balanced". But nobody would pay to play this ridiculous game. Similarly, people have a problem with 4 gate because it destroys the game. Personally I don't think that's true on all maps. But on maps like delta quadrant and jungle basin it's just ridiculous. It's not about balance. It's mostly about having an actual fun game. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
I think it should be considered to revise build timings so warpgate trained units don't train faster than gateway trained units as it currently happens right now. | ||
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traca
146 Posts
so 2 gate / robo can beat 4 gatebut not 3 gate / robo because you need that immortal asap? | ||
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JJoNeEightY
United States509 Posts
On January 17 2011 04:14 traca wrote: any replays or vods of nony beating 4 gate with 2 gate robo? i remember him pulling this off on hs stream but havent been able to analyse in more details his way to do it so 2 gate / robo can beat 4 gatebut not 3 gate / robo because you need that immortal asap? I would love to hear/see more about this as well, it seems like it would be far too easy for the 4 gating player to start warping in 3 zealots + 1 stalker per round (disallowing kiting of his zealots while making any of your immortals into expensive waddling golden pieces of junk) and totally overwhelm you. If he says it can be done, I don't doubt him, can someone shed some light on this? | ||
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oygp
United States40 Posts
At 5:50 game time, your opponent has AT MOST 2 or 3 sentries out... which is NOT ENOUGH to forcefield the ramp long enough to survive. When the forcefields run out, which they ALWAYS do, you simply walk up with your stalker and zealot-heavy group of units and ignore the sentries which at this point can only tickle the zealots and stalkers.. IMO, the vast majority of the lower level players on this thread have little experience with a perfectly executed 4 warpgate rush and are underestimating it's raw power and speed. Even most Masters protoss players, including myself, are not sure exactly how to hold off the 4 warpgate rush in PvP. It can be very difficult even if you are defending with 4 gates yourself, (as Naniwa did vs White-Ra just recently? I would like to see a VOD link if anyone has it!) Below is a series of images from a game between me and another Master's league protoss player. He was about 10 seconds late with his warpgate tech, and failed to cut probes... and you see the consequences. Which brings me back to the OP's question, what can stop the 4 gate rush in PvP besides 4 gate? I would love to see how it can be blocked with 3 gates, but 2 gate robo as suggested by LiquidTyler? I just don't see how that is possible... ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JjckW.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0U4Gi.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AbSbu.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TBDJU.jpg) | ||
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Backpack
United States1776 Posts
On January 17 2011 03:57 ParasitJonte wrote: People make a distinction between when something is imbalanced and when something is just stupid/boring. Tossing a fair coin to determine a winner is "balanced". But nobody would pay to play this ridiculous game. Similarly, people have a problem with 4 gate because it destroys the game. Personally I don't think that's true on all maps. But on maps like delta quadrant and jungle basin it's just ridiculous. It's not about balance. It's mostly about having an actual fun game. You can't argue "fun" as it's based on opinion. That was my point. I very much dislike when terrans go 3 rax and neither of us get to expand but lots of terrans love 3rax plays. All-ins are part of the game, gotta deal with it. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On January 17 2011 04:32 oygp wrote: Master's league protoss player here, and I agree with Crappy (OP) that a perfectly executed 4 warpgate rush in PvP (attack with 1 zealot and 6 stalkers at 5:50 with an immediate additional 4 zealot warp in on high ground in your opponent's base with pylon(s) on the low ground right outside your opponent's base) has been basically unstoppable with anything less than 4 gates in my experience. At 5:50 game time, your opponent has AT MOST 2 or 3 sentries out... which is NOT ENOUGH to forcefield the ramp long enough to survive. When the forcefields run out, which they ALWAYS do, you simply walk up with your stalker and zealot-heavy group of units and ignore the sentries which at this point can only tickle the zealots and stalkers.. IMO, the vast majority of the lower level players on this thread have little experience with a perfectly executed 4 warpgate rush and are underestimating it's raw power and speed. Even most Masters protoss players, including myself, are not sure exactly how to hold off the 4 warpgate rush in PvP. It can be very difficult even if you are defending with 4 gates yourself, (as Naniwa did vs White-Ra just recently? I would like to see a VOD link if anyone has it!) Below is a series of images from a game between me and another Master's league protoss player. He was about 10 seconds late with his warpgate tech, and failed to cut probes... and you see the consequences. Which brings me back to the OP's question, what can stop the 4 gate rush in PvP besides 4 gate? I would love to see how it can be blocked with 3 gates, but 2 gate robo as suggested by LiquidTyler? I just don't see how that is possible... You shouldn't make more than 1 sentry imo. They are pretty weak in a fight and it should have energy for 2 force fields, and it only takes 1 force field to split his army, and 2 splits should be plenty. Against that particular 4gate build, I don't think you can mine from 2 gas. There are several ways to do 4gate and several ways to optimally counter. When you are facing this really aggressive, fastest possible 4gate, it's possible that the best counter is to 4gate yourself and wait for your opponent to come up your ramp. Then you're in the classic HuK vs kiwikaki situation from MLG 1, where everyone was like "kiwikaki why'd you go up his ramp" and he says "to attack dude" When I counter 4gate with 2gate robo, it's when I've scouted a 13gate opening and 2gas. When I scout 10gate and 1gas and saved chrono, I don't make a robo. It's really a danger when you say something like 4gate and think there's only way to do it. Isn't sort of obvious that when I mention 2 ways to stop it that they're for different variations? There's only ever one best way to stop something. | ||
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Aelfric
Turkey1496 Posts
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
build all ur gateways along the edge of the cliff to block warp in locations lol. might even be possible to block with only 3 gates, keep the forth one in warp-in mode, cancel it the moment he loses vision, and restart it right before his next round of warp-in beings to save a bit of $$. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On January 17 2011 03:09 Backpack wrote: Anyone who thinks 4gate is dumb needs to stop 14 pooling or going 3 rax. Those builds are too easy and everyone does them. It's a build, get over it. 14pooling? What? Are you going to at least describe the build? Because "14pool" is not really a build. You can go roach, or ling/bling, or ling, or queen/roach or whatever. It's not a build. Personally, I'm going to go with Liquid Tyler seeing how he probably knows a hell of a lot more about the match up then a lot of the ridiculous people in this thread. | ||
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oygp
United States40 Posts
On January 17 2011 04:57 Liquid`Tyler wrote: You shouldn't make more than 1 sentry imo. They are pretty weak in a fight and it should have energy for 2 force fields, and it only takes 1 force field to split his army, and 2 splits should be plenty. Against that particular 4gate build, I don't think you can mine from 2 gas. There are several ways to do 4gate and several ways to optimally counter. When you are facing this really aggressive, fastest possible 4gate, it's possible that the best counter is to 4gate yourself and wait for your opponent to come up your ramp. Then you're in the classic HuK vs kiwikaki situation from MLG 1, where everyone was like "kiwikaki why'd you go up his ramp" and he says "to attack dude" When I counter 4gate with 2gate robo, it's when I've scouted a 13gate opening and 2gas. When I scout 10gate and 1gas and saved chrono, I don't make a robo. It's really a danger when you say something like 4gate and think there's only way to do it. Isn't sort of obvious that when I mention 2 ways to stop it that they're for different variations? There's only ever one best way to stop something. Thanks for the clarification... your early game PvP advice is spot on, of course. LiquidTyler FIGHTING! | ||
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